Teacher fired for Receiving Fertility Treatment

Sapphire - posted on 04/29/2012

And that lies in the inconsistency in the. Catholic church policies that, like Mary said, vary greatly from instance to instance. She could have been fired the 1st time she went through ivf if the principal said something to the higher ups. But they were not aware of the treatment the 1st time. The fact id that the church can hire and fire at their inconsistent discretion.

Mary - posted on 04/29/2012

Kelina, my guess is that the first time, it wasn't an issue because the parish priest didn't know about it, and the principal (like most normal Catholics) most likely didn't realize that it was an "issue". In most parochial schools, the pastor is considered the head of the school, and does have the final authority over the principal, administrators and any school board. However the reality is that they usually aren't all that involved in the day-to-day running of the school, and are only brought into any employee or student issues if there is something unusual. He somehow became aware of this second absence, and made the choice to fire her.



The truth is, Catholic parishes vary widely in just how strictly they adhere to the Vatican's social policies, and is usually reflective of the sentiment of it's local population. I know that in my area, which is much more liberal and democratic overall, this would never have happened. Despite the church's official stance on IVF, I happen to know from personal experience that the pastor of my local parish does not hold these views, nor would he ever chose to fire any employee of either the church or school for this reason. I have a good friend who is a second teacher at that school; it's well known that her twins are the result of IVF. She worked there both during her treatments, and still teaches there today. Not only did that priest not admonish her, he actively prayed for her, and was extremely supportive of her and her husband during their 3 years of attempts.

Kelina - posted on 04/29/2012

but then the question becomes why didn't they say anything to her the first time she approached them about undergoing IVF? Her boss even offered her time off! why fire her for the second round, not the first? Should she still have lost her job then? Sure they're well within their rights-we had two teachers at my highschool fired because they had an affair. Christian school, blegh. But that was as soon as they'd found out. If they found out, did nothing about it, and then discovered the teachers were involved with other teachers would the rules still have applied? You can't pick and choose when to apply the rules and that goes for all schools. If they said nothing the first time, she shouldn't have been fired the second time.

Mary - posted on 04/29/2012

I agree, Sharon. As ridiculous as most of the rational world may find the Catholic Church's position on IVF, it's not exactly a secret either. Unless she is a complete idiot, as a Catholic, and an employee of one of it's institutions, she had to have known this. Her mistake was in divulging to them that it specifically was IVF she was undergoing. The church is not against all fertility assistance - just that which results in embryos created outside of the body.



If she didn't want to find another job (which, given her need for FMLA to get this treatment, may have been difficult, I know), she could have not specified precisely what types of treatment she was receiving. Her mistake was in not knowing her terms of employment. Catholic school employees, particularly smaller parochial schools, are subject to much higher scrutiny of their personal life than employees of bigger universities or hospitals. Again, this is not a secret. By virtue of the smallness of the parish community, everyone knows each other much more personally than in the public school system. Hell, according to my sister, most of her kid's teachers intentionally belong to another parish just so the more nosy parents and that parish's priests are keeping tabs on their weekly church attendance (or lack thereof).



We can all think that this stance on IVF is beyond asinine, but it doesn't change the reality that the school was within it's legal rights to terminate her for publicly acknowledging her choice to go against the church's "moral" codes.

Sapphire - posted on 04/28/2012

All of you missed the primary issue of why the teacher was fired: she was not in compliance of the church's stance, or 'morality code', that many catholic teachers are required to maintain in their contract. She intentionally sought IVF fully aware of the church's position. That means she invalidated her contract. This teacher is NOT entitled to her job or compensation, as a private educational institution is not required to deliver the same due process rights as a public school educator would be guaranteed. A private educational institution may legally dismiss an employee for whatever reason they deem suitable for termination. Is this morally wrong? Absolutley yes! I feel so terrible for this teacher and sad that it happened to her. She should have sought employment with a public school who wouldn't bat an eye about IVF treatments. But that didn't happen. Legally, she is not eligible for any compensation. She violated her contract by not maintaining the morals of a Catholic school educator. The sadder reality, of course, are the thousands of innocent victims of sexual abuse by the hands of the church officials, priests, etc.

Kelina - posted on 04/28/2012

I think religion is really about finding something that you believe in and then finding a group of people who agree with you. Not all religions are bad, in fact a lot of them are good at the core, it's simply that people have twisted things or misinterpreted things in a bad way. Take Christianity and homosexuals for example. There are certain verses in the bible that are often used to say that being gay is wrong but when you look at the context and time in which they were written they take on a whole new meaning that has nothing to do with being gay whatsoever.

Nikki - posted on 04/28/2012

This is why Im not religious, aboslutely ridiculous

Kelina - posted on 04/27/2012

I'm curious to know if she will bring up the fact that up to 50% of normal conceptions fail, so how could IVF be wrong? So long as she's not going with freezing some fertilized eggs and just having them planted in her. I could understand having fertilized eggs frozen, then later destroyed being seen as wrong because that's something that I wouldn't be comfortable with but when up to half of all conceptions fail before a mother even knows she's pregnant, how could her body choosing not to implant a fertilized egg be wrong? It happens frequently even in women with perfectly working organs.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 04/27/2012

All I can say is this is why I don't practise my religion anymore. It's too much focus on hypocrisy and do as I say not as I do. Seriously, does the Catholic Church not remember how many random Popes and Cardinals were having Orgies in the middle ages?

Jaime - posted on 04/27/2012

shit, teachers get outright fired for the stupidest things but if it's actually causing harm to students they just get relocated?? such bull, i don't give a damn where it is or if it's got something to do with the Church, that's just complete bull.

Kimberly - posted on 04/27/2012

"Please do not criticize my religion or how I be. What I do and/or say is none of your business and you do not get to tell me how to live my life, just as I do not get to tell you how to live yours."

Isn't that EXACTLY what the Catholic church is doing when it gets involved in influencing legislation regarding marriage equality, abortion, healthcare, etc.?

Tracie - posted on 04/26/2012

The celibate, unmarried head of the Catholic Church needs to get his hands the hell out of women's uteruses. It is none of your boss's business how you choose to conceive. I can't believe this is even up for debate in 2012. smh

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 04/26/2012

Michelle, I'm ADOPTED! I also have an aunt on my dad's side who gave up a son for adoption. I'm sorry if you took my post the wrong way, but it wasn't meant as any more than just another way to show how the Church constantly changes its stances on certain beliefs and ideas. Besides the Catholic church does see sex before marriage as morally wrong so whose to say what they will or won't consider a fireable offense before next Tuesday.

Johnny, the inquisition was fun! The catholic church got a shedload of Conversios and property. Oh and the crusades... doesn't get any more non violent and love of God than that.

Donna, I was raised Catholic and adopted. I'm also an American Expat living in Canada. I believe that the Catholic church needs to do some serious soul searching of their own if they are to continue. Not every Catholic even believes the same. I'm sure my family would support me if I had to do IVF.

I don't know what else to put in here. I do understand the want to have your own children because I've seen the look on my mom's face when I was pregnant with my girls and when my SIL was pregnant with her son because my brother and I are adopted. She couldn't have her own children because of my dad being sterile from when he got a very high fever as a child. But I believe the church is ridiculous for firing someone for trying to get pregnant.

Rebecca - posted on 04/26/2012

The Catholic Church doesn't repress people? Come on, this is a granddaddy of a church with a long history of doing an array of things that aren't always about lifting people up and giving them the freedom to do what they want.

Sometimes when you really love something, it is hard to see the negative side of that thing, especially when it has enriched your life. I think, though, in order to really, truly love something, knowing that it has flaws is a big part of it. Sometimes the best advocates for a church are the ones that are knowledgable of its short-comings, but can still convince you they are a worthwhile organization despite those flaws. Just sayin'.

Johnny - posted on 04/26/2012

"Please do not criticize my religion or how I be. What I do and/or say is none of your business and you do not get to tell me how to live my life, just as I do not get to tell you how to live yours."



Religion does not have some sort of criticism-exempt special status. It is merely some people's beliefs and ideas and therefore is equally as open to critique as any other beliefs, thoughts or ideas. It is not an attack on who someone is, it is questioning an idea, just like you are questioning ours.



No one here is telling you how to live or what to believe. You are absolutely entittled to make the life choices and hold the beliefs that you feel are right for you. If getting IVF does not meet with your own personal moral compass, then you should absolutely follow that. However, you should probably show others the same courtesy you are requesting and not expect your opinions to govern their lives.



"And, just because you don't agree with the Catholic religion, it doesn't give you the right to be nasty about another religion or the people who are different from you. I happen to be a Catholic, as is my husband and daughter."



Actually, we have every right to criticize the Catholic church all we want. As I said earlier, religion does not hold a "criticism-exempt" status. In fact, given the Catholic church's attempt to force it's opinions on the general public or to " to change the world" as you put it, the general public has more than the right to criticize the church. They can not expect to tell non-Catholics how to live their life, what civil (government) laws should be written, and what moral beliefs the rest of us should hold without being subjected to equal attempts to make changes to their clearly twisted and archaic worldview.



"Anyway, the Catholic church does not make stuff up to suit their needs, as you so vehemently state, and they do not repress people."



The Catholic church has changed it's position on all sorts of issues a myriad of times through the churches history. They may not admit to their followers that they are making up stuff to suit their needs, but that is exactly what they do. They want all the little Catholics to breed like rabbits to make more little Catholics. As for not repressing, what do you call the Inquisition? That was no attempt to repress?

Tracey - posted on 04/26/2012

If Christians believe God is the only one with the power to judge us then surely he
a) has the power to decide if the embryo implants and pregnancy occurs - or if he disagrees it does not occur.
b) gave man the knowledge to create IVF.

Janice - posted on 04/26/2012

Michelle- I'm sorry you are so upset. Adoption is a wonderfully kind thing.

I do believe Megan supports adoption. She was implying that those in power of the Church may decide its wrong because they make shit up willy nilly. She stated that the couple should have adopted, knowing the church's stance on IVF.

Janice - posted on 04/26/2012

Donna I am aware that the woman did not quit. I was stating that others from a different forum were suggesting so.



I do not hate Catholic people. I do hate the Catholic church. Last time I checked the only one allowed to judge is God, yet those in power of the church have appointed themselves to make decisions only God should make. If god truly believes that IVF is wrong then those who choose will be judged by god when he/she deems fit.



This woman was not trying to make anyone think like her. She just wanted a baby. And she was punished for that. That is just wrong to me.



Thank you Meme!!!



ETA: I am not a christian.

Michelle - posted on 04/26/2012

I have to admit that I have never wanted to cry from a post due to anger, but there is always a first for everything. I was adopted...my mother did not sin, her life and my life were in danger! Our first son was adopted, his mother didn't sin, she was born into the wrong family herself. Oh, and did you know that the total for an international adoption can amount to more than $100,000.00 when all is said and done?
Please be aware of how you word things; because it could really hurt someone. In this case, calling me and my son "sin".

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/26/2012

Donna--What I do and/or say is none of your business and you do not get to tell me how to live my life, just as I do not get to tell you how to live yours. Please respect me enough to be civil and not nasty.

WHAT? Your religion IS forcing this lady to be without a job. Are you saying that you do not stand behind this decision? It is obvious from your statement that you do. So, how the hell can you say you do not tell anyone how to live their life? Yeah, another double standard and seriously hypocritical statement.

Janice was simply stating how SHE feels. From what I read, she wasn't making anyone else agree or believe what she said. Although, your religious views ARE dictating how this lady in the OP lives her life. Get off of your higher than mighty cloud and let people live as they choose. It is not your right to dictate how anyone lives their life, just as it is no ones to tell you how to do so. if you choose to allow a priest to dictate it for you, fine. This lady in the OP wasn't even teaching any religious course material. Why is she subjected to YOUR beliefs? Just because she works in a Catholic school? Oh how they like to suit their own needs, yet again. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/26/2012

Donna---Janice said: I hate the Catholic church, they do not follow the bible they just make shit up to suit there needs and repress people. Real Christians are much kinder.



Both my parents ARE Catholic and both sides of my family ARE Catholic. They are fucking hypocrites. Janice is absolutely right! They do things to suit their own needs.



As Johnny said. They have not excommunicated priests for raping children BUT they think IVF is wrong? Yeah, talk about suiting ones needs.



BTW - IVF does NOT mean any embryo's are destroyed. A man and woman can request for an IVF and have their eggs and sperms fertilized, then place within the womb, thus leaving NONE to perish (and it is their own egg and sperm). Those that actually hold and become a part of a viable pregnancy, those that do not, shed out. They are not destroyed. Yes, in some cases it is true that the embryo is destroyed but NOT in all. Sometimes it is two loving people that love each other, that require seeking such a procedure. Sometimes, it is not.



How would you feel if someone told you, you could no longer drink water because it was against THEIR belief. Would that make you feel good? Someone exposing their beliefs onto you? What if someone told you, you MUST worship the devil because if you don't, he will take your life? Yeah, stupid right? No one ever should be taking their religious stance and forcing it upon anyone. EVER.

Donna - posted on 04/26/2012

@Janice Coleman - she didn't QUIT her job, she got fired. She went against the beliefs of her employer and was terminated for it. The reason the Catholics don't agree with IVF is because there are embryos that are destroyed if they are not implanted into the mother - something the Catholics do not agree with - destroying a life.



Anyway, the Catholic church does not make stuff up to suit their needs, as you so vehemently state, and they do not repress people. Catholics were the first Christians in the world and have been for 2,000 years. Most religions are much younger by comparison.



While I don't completely agree with their methods, I do agree that destroying the embryos - taking a life is morally wrong. And implanting them into another woman's body is also morally wrong. I don't agree that they are trying to stop people from sinning - they are trying to change the world, and instead they should be trying to help people understand and re-think some of their (the people, not the Catholic religion) choices in how they be.



And, just because you don't agree with the Catholic religion, it doesn't give you the right to be nasty about another religion or the people who are different from you. I happen to be a Catholic, as is my husband and daughter.



Does that make us bad people? No. Does it make us better than anyone else? Most certainly not. But, it also doesn't give you the right to disparage us for the choices we make for ourselves, nor does it give you the right to govern what is said by another religion when made public.



I don't criticize your religion or choice to not be religious - however you be. Please do not criticize my religion or how I be. What I do and/or say is none of your business and you do not get to tell me how to live my life, just as I do not get to tell you how to live yours. Please respect me enough to be civil and not nasty.

Janice - posted on 04/26/2012

Megan - you were watching Good Morning America in Canada?! LOL ;)

Johnny - posted on 04/26/2012

Interesting. So the church will fire a lay person for getting IVF but they will not excommunicate a priest for raping children. I think I see where their moral compass points and it disgusts me. I am opposed to these laws that allow your employer to have knowledge of your medical history and happenings and then fire you if they are in oppostion. On the other hand, when you choose to work with the devil, it'll bite you in the ass one day. But Megan is right, she worked for the church for a long time, it's rather hard to predict what will happen later in life when you choose your employer. I don't really get the choice not to adopt, but it's not my life and I have no right to impose my feelings on her life.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/26/2012

Everything Janice said!



I also want to say, my husband feels the same way. I have expressed to him that I would be interested in adoption. He is not open to it at all. He said if he can't have his own, than he isn't having anymore. Sigh...

Janice - posted on 04/26/2012

Well being able to have a child that is genetically theirs is extremely important for some people. I know when my husband and I were having trouble he said that he didn't feel like adoption was something he wanted if we couldn't get pregnant on our own. Thankfully we did.



I actually read this else where 1st, and some of the comments were that it was her choice to work for a parochial school. This woman worked for the school for 8 years. I'm sure that 8 years ago she hoped to have children "the old-fashioned way." Unfortunately, it didn't happen. I don't think she should have had to quit her job (especially in today's economy) because she needed to use IVF to conceive.



I hate the Catholic church, they do not follow the bible they just make shit up to suit there needs and repress people. Real Christians are much kinder.