The Abortion Battle Continues

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

Then I appologize for my sarcasm back...I didn't read it as such.

Cathy - posted on 02/23/2011

Yeah I was being sarcastic BUT I have actually been told that by someone who wasn't using sarcasm!

Becky - posted on 02/22/2011

I'm pretty sure Cathy was being sarcastic. :)

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/22/2011

I have to agree with the counseling...but as far as the rest of this goes.,..hogwash.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/22/2011

@ Sara "Does anyone else find it funny (not funny ha-ha, but funny ironic) that people want to make abortion illegal yet people also apparently think, as evidenced by another thread being discussed today, that single moms are the downfall of society? Wish they'd make up their damn minds. If abortion is ever outlawed, there'd be a heluvalot more single moms in the world."

I agree with you 100%.

@ Cathy..really?? Gee wiz if it was only that easy...maybe you should tell all the dissappointed kids in orphanages this,,...maybe you will give them some hope in those overpopulated homes.

Krista - posted on 02/22/2011

Abortion is a different animal from most medical procedures though, Emma. In some cases it's medically necessary, but in many cases it's elective. And really, if a procedure is elective, one should not need one's doctor's permission to proceed. Teresa mentioned some doctors refusing to give a patient a tubal ligation, saying she is too young.

They're two sides of the same coin: in both cases, we have people assuming that women are just too foolish to know what they REALLY want when it comes to their own reproduction, so the wise doctors have to protect them from themselves.

Stifler's - posted on 02/22/2011

There have been lots of women who had an abortion under duress from a seedy partner or their father or whatever. You have to get a prescription or referal for everything else, why not a serious medical procedure like abortion?

Tara - posted on 02/22/2011

Actually in Ontario men must receive a brief counselling session prior to having a vasectomy, the consult can be just prior to the procedure though.
I don't agree with needing a doctors approval for an abortion, but I think I agree with the counselling and wait time afterwards.

Teresa - posted on 02/22/2011

OK... you all know this is a stretch for me since I'm 100% pro-life, but....

I do agree w/ the counseling, but then I think that if a doctor's 'approval' is still needed it should have to be granted as soon as the woman has gone through the counseling.

I also agree w/ the exact same counseling on vasectomy or tubes being tied. Think about that one... since I've heard woman even on here saying how they wanted their tubes tied, but the doc refused cuz they 'weren't old enough' or didn't have enough kids or whatever. This way.... even if you are 20 w/ no kids.... you could still get those tubes tied as long as you 'proved' (simply by attending the counseling) that it truely IS what you want.

Sara - posted on 02/22/2011

OHHHHHH...my bad!

Cathy - posted on 02/22/2011

You don't understand, Sara.

When you get pregnant and the guy does a runner, you carry the baby, give birth, then had it over to the perfect happily married couple and carry on with your life, feeling fulfilled!

Happy baby (if it doesn't end up in care due to the sheer numbers having unwanted babies and there is no longer a demand for newborns). Happy couple (because everyone wants to adopt which is why IVF treatment is in such high demand). Happy mother (living knowing there is a child out there somewhere that's part of her, with possibly no contact).... Win win solution??? No???

Jenni - posted on 02/22/2011

Fickleness. The world is a scary place when the people with the loudest opinions are the ones with the least thought out opinions.

Sara - posted on 02/22/2011

Does anyone else find it funny (not funny ha-ha, but funny ironic) that people want to make abortion illegal yet people also apparently think, as evidenced by another thread being discussed today, that single moms are the downfall of society? Wish they'd make up their damn minds. If abortion is ever outlawed, there'd be a heluvalot more single moms in the world.

Sara - posted on 02/22/2011

Esther, they proposed a bill in Ohio that would ban abortions once there is evidence that a fetus has a heartbeat, though it doesn't set a specific time. The heart is one of the first organs to develop, and a baby's heartbeat can be detected as early as 18 days for some women, and by six weeks for most.

Jenni - posted on 02/22/2011

More redtape... listen, if a woman has made up her mind she's getting an abortion she will fly 200 miles to get one. Make them completely illegal and some will use a coat hanger or get a back alley abortion.

I guess I could agree with the councelling... I mean we wouldn't want a woman having an abortion without thinking it through. Although I assume most do and don't take the decision lightly. As others have said, if it were unbiased.

6.5 weeks in Ohio? that actually passed? good lord. I didn't even know I was pregnant with my daughter till then. And I think I found out at 5.5 weeks with my son. That doesn't even give a woman the option, really. Might as well be illegal.

People really need to trust that these women know what they're doing with their own bodies.

Esther - posted on 02/22/2011

What rule is that Laura?

Isobel - posted on 02/22/2011

Could you imagine if they threw in the Ohio heart beat rule and you had to get all that done in 6.5 weeks?

Esther - posted on 02/22/2011

Considering that only last week they tried to pass a law in South Dakota that would expand the definition of "justifiable homicide" to include killings that are intended to prevent harm to a fetus - a move that could make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions, I'm not surprised that abortion providers are hard to come by (that bill has since been removed from the table btw).

Krista - posted on 02/22/2011

Fun fact: 98% of counties in South Dakota have no abortion provider. And, abortion is illegal after 24 weeks.

I would bet my last Reese's Peanut Butter Cup that between the doctor, the "pregnancy crisis centre" and the sheer lack of availability of abortion providers, the gambit here is to try to run out the clock, so that these women are unable to get their abortion prior to it being illegal.

Esther - posted on 02/22/2011

Yes, the counselling would be acceptable to me if it came from a totally unbiased (read NON-RELIGIOUS) source. It should stick to the basics. Adoption options, what support is available if you decide to keep the baby, medical & emotional risks of an abortion, that type of stuff. God's wrath should not be part of the discussion. Nor should graphic photographs.

Becky - posted on 02/22/2011

So, if they could get counselling from anywhere, or if they were required to get counselling from an impartial, unbiased source who had no vested interest either in abortion or in the pro-life movement, the counselling requirement would be acceptable.

Cathy - posted on 02/22/2011

Gawd...

In theory it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Some women are bullied into abortions by abusive partners. It should be voluntary and uncoerced. Counselling sessions should be provided to ensure that they are aware of the risks and are fully informed. Also assistance and advice on ways to prevent further unplanned pregnancies.

BUT as Krista has pointed out, there is too much opportunity for bullying from the pro life movement and preventing a woman from doing what she considers she needs to do.

There's making sure it's a woman's decision... and then there is sticking a dozen hurdles in the way, delaying what for many is already a difficult choice.

Becky - posted on 02/22/2011

I agree with the counselling, but requiring women to get consent from their doctors seems silly. What if a woman doesn't have a family doctor? I would think getting counselling before getting a vasectomy would be a good idea too. Not months of counselling, but one session with a counsellor, to ensure it is a mutual decision (if in a relationship) and they understand the consequences.

Krista - posted on 02/22/2011

Oh, and don't forget this part of the bill:

The woman would then have to set up an appointment at a "pregnancy help center," that offers counseling on what "education, counseling, and other assistance" she can get if she chooses to have the baby, as well as any "risk factors" that might be associated with an abortion. These centers could not perform abortions at their facilities, have an affiliation with a group or doctor who performs abortions, or ever refer pregnant women for abortions.

Once she completes these steps, a woman can sign a consent form and schedule her appointment for 72 hours later, assuming the doctor makes an "an independent determination" that the decision is "voluntary, uncoerced, and informed."

So first you have to go to your doctor to get permission, and hope that he or she doesn't just decide to make up some shit excuse to deny you permission to have an abortion.

THEN, you have go to to one of those religious pro-life centres disguising itself as a "pregnancy help centre" to get a bunch of pro-life propaganda thrown at you (because you know, your doctor obviously told you NOTHING about abortion or your options while he was assessing whether or not you were allowed to have one.

Then, you have to sign a form and wait another 72 hours before making an appointment, because you know, even though the woman has already made two other appointments and jumped through all of THEIR hoops, she's obviously not serious about this and so let's give the poor, deluded dear another 72 hours to come to Jesus and change her mind.

Fuck me with a rusty chainsaw, what is WRONG with these people?

Brandi - posted on 02/22/2011

I agree with Esther. Plus, before you have an abortion, they give you all the information, and they ask if you are absolutely sure that this is the only option for you.

Krista - posted on 02/22/2011

Another abortion bill up for vote in the South Dakota House of Representatives would require women to obtain consent from their doctors before having an abortion, after the doctor determines that the decision is "voluntary, uncoerced, and informed."

Those silly bitches just don't know their own minds, you see. We can't trust wimmenfolk to make their own medical decisions! Next thing you know, they'll be wanting the vote, or some such thing!

Esther - posted on 02/22/2011

Desiree - I think counseling is one thing, but consent from your doctor a WHOLE other matter.

Desiree - posted on 02/22/2011

Interesting that you are having these problem when here in South Africa it is the norm to go for an counseling whether you are having an abortion or a vasectomy. I happen to agree with it on both fronts. My husband can not have a vasectomy with out us being counseled together and to make sure it is a joint decision. I feel women should go through the counseling, They are better prepared to deal with the emotions that come after.

Brandi - posted on 02/22/2011

I agree with what the lady representative.