Universal health care - thoughts?

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

LMAO Nikki, that was on the ballot in the US (a national medical database) and they were all scared about it! Ohh... but then credit card companies will know if you order pizza too many times and have high cholesterol, so the travel agent may not let you fly to Hawaii. Shit like that.

A paranoid bunch when you think about it. Reds under the bed, Commies want to take over the world, travel agents lurking in medical records... everyone's out to get ya!

I'm for a national database too! It would have made changing GPs from across the city easier for me... across the Bass Strait for you! It's a PITA trying to remember every little detail and having to establish a relationship from scratch.

Charlie - posted on 10/10/2011

Honestly there isnt much to complain about.

Yeah the only wait list worth mentioning is elective non essential surgery..other than that its fine, same day wait for GP visits , I have always had my referal seen within the week and emergency I have always been seen straight away ( again this is because I only go in a REAL emergency unlike some people who go when they have a snotty nose and complain they have to wait ....well thats a no brainer, that is how triage works)



I too wish dental were apart of it since it is a vital aspect of health.

Here is a compartive link and a very good read on how the US system compares to UHC run countries.

"MIRROR, MIRROR ON THE WALL: AN INTERNATIONAL UPDATE ON THE COMPARATIVE PERFORMANCE OF AMERICAN HEALTH CARE"

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/usr_doc/...



"In an international comparative study of the health care systems in six countries (Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United States), found that "Australia ranks highest on healthy lives, scoring first or second on all of the indicators," although its overall ranking in the study was below the UK and Germany systems, tied with New Zealand's and above those of Canada and the U.S."



"The study also noted that "while palliative care is available through public medical insurance," in the U.S., "patients must relinquish curative treatments to be eligible for reimbursements," while in the UK, "both courses of treatment may be pursued" at the same time by patients."

Nikki - posted on 10/10/2011

I don't have any complaints either, I honestly don't think there are many negatives. If you don't have private health insurance and you are in hospital you may have to share a room, although the 3 times I have been in hospital I have had private rooms. The only improvement I can think of is I would like to see a reform on the way our medical records are kept. At the moment unless you request your records to be transferred if you go to a new doctor or hospital they don't have your medical records. I would like to have some kind of national database instead.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

Crap! I'm trying to shorten my novel-like answers, but it doesn't seem to be working. Sorry to everyone for having to put up with my verbosity!

Okay, negatives. UHC doesn't cover dental. That shits me! My husband needs to have FOUR wisdom teeth taken out, but we can't afford it and we dropped our private insurance (cost us $105/month for a family hospital/extras cover) which would have covered all but $1300 (which we still couldn't afford anyway). If it were covered, he would have had this done 4 years ago when it should have been done. That is the biggest negative. When we had private cover, we got regular cleanings and fillings for free on that insurance as long as we went regularly (every 6 months) and the kids would have had free treatments if needed for other things. It would be nice if UHC covered eyes too, as in glasses. With our private insurance, I could get a new pair of glasses every 2 years, but now it's out of pocket except for the exam. We can have regular exams for free every 2 years.

Wait lists. There are no wait lists for emergency or serious surgeries, but you do have to wait for elective and non-essential surgery. For instance, tonsillitis. You have to have a minimum of 6 treated episodes within a 12 month time frame before they will remove tonsils. Unless you are willing to go private, but then you pay for it. I also have a friend who's BIL needs knee surgery. His knee is bad, but not so bad that it stops him working or anything. The surgery is to stop the pain he has more than anything else. Well he's on a wait list and it will be approximately 12 months before he'll have the surgery. In the meantime, he's in painkillers. He's also on a pension, so he only pays $5 for the bloody prescription! Not sure what he's bitching about really... Conversely, another friend had to have another type of knee surgery... AGL, I think it's called? Anyway, she needed this surgery because she could hardly walk. She didn't have to wait long, only a week because the theatre was booked until then. Not like her knee was going to kill her, but still serious enough they got her in fairly quickly. I don't actually think our wait times our excessive for the most part.

Ahh... there's a test available to test for a breast cancer gene. My MIL (the one who had both breasts removed) had the test done and there's a long history of breast cancer in her family. If any of the family wanted to have this test done, it was going to cost EACH family member $2,000. I do feel that something like this should be on Medicare too. Not fully covered necessarily, but at least subsidised. If people could find out whether they have a higher chance of getting breast cancer, then they could take measures to try and avoid it or at least keep aware of their body changes to catch it early.

Lastly, another thing that just downright pisses me off is the government refusal to even look at Dr. Holt's radiowave therapy to treat cancer. If he had such success with it, Tony (as Health Minister at the time) should have looked at it! Dr. Holt has retired, but there is still a radiowave therapy clinic in Perth, but it's still a not for profit clinic and costs a patient upwards of $22,000 for treatment! If the government had looked at it and put it on Medicare, people could be treated in a non-invasive, side effect free (repeatable if necessary) method for cancer. Thankfully (maybe), Johns Hopkins University is collaborating with the Radiowave Therapies clinic in studies.

Johnny - posted on 10/10/2011

Angela, I just wanted to reply to a couple of your earlier questions for now. Firstly, medical schools here in Canada have long waitlists and competitive entry standards. It is still a very desirable field and people work hard to get in. There are difficulties attracting general practitioners to rural and remote areas for a number of reasons, but the pay in those areas is often significantly higher because of bonuses set up to attract them, so money is not usually the reason. Workload and lifestyle are the two big ones. I have two doctors in my family, one of my uncles and my cousin's husband who is my age. I've never heard either of them complain about the money nor discuss leaving Canada to work elsewhere. My own GP is an immigrant, who came to Canada from South Africa degree in hand.

As for not giving all the care desired, I will tell you that my grandmother is 94 years old and has never been refused treatment for anything. We have never had them recommend not to treat, last year she had a stroke, because of her advanced age. When my other grandmother was dying of cancer, she had the do not resuscitate order taped directly above her head so people would not forget and try to save her. Her sister had that happen after a series of strokes, because the paramedics who came did not see the DNR order. My granny wanted to make sure. I've never heard of people being denied care because they are old or too far gone. You are always given your options, clearly laid out, and allowed the choice. If you want to be saved, they will go to great lengths. If you don't they will (generally) respect your wishes. One of my girlfriends declined further treatments when her cancer metastasized and her wishes were respected. But if she'd wanted to extend her life (even with a terminal diagnosis) they would have done it.

As Jodi listed in Australia, many Canadian doctors and researchers are at the forefront of medical research. I actually believe that much like the actual researchers in the US, they are not in that field entirely for the money. A reasonable pay cheque is good, and their salaries are comparable to the US. It is just that the government is funding it, and thus not seeking to make a profit. Whereas in the US, a pharmaceutical corporation is funding the research and expecting to make a good profit on the return.

I will try to spend some time thinking about what I don't like about our system. A lot of our problems come from having an aging demographic and a large yet thinly populated rural area. I am not sure that they are specifically UHC related.

Shannen - posted on 10/10/2011

Angela, I think you would be hard pressed finding a serious negative on the UHC. I honestly have never had any troubles with it. I have had 3 births 2 were considered high risk (even though they weren't) and even the OBGYN was free for me. I have also had 5 surgery's all within a couple of weeks of diagnosis to actual surgery.
I honestly don't know anyone who complains about anything with our system, except for wait times and I have never had major wait times and I live in a town with 1 regular doctor and NO hospital and high aging population.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

You're exactly right, Shannen. It will never happen. It's sad, what's even more sad is I remember 20 years ago wanting a UHC in the US and being involved in a group trying to get one in the US. 20 years ago and nothing's changed for the better since... only for the worse.

I would gladly eat my words in saying it'll never happen.

BTW, while going to pick up my son from school I was thinking about this from another angle. Angela J, said that she and her husband were business owners. Okay, as a business owner you are obligated to buy medical for your permanent full time staff in the US. And that crap is EXPENSIVE! Thankfully you only have to cover the employee and can foot the excess for family coverage to the employee himself. In any case, here in Australia and I'm sure all UHC countries, businesses have NO extra "benefits" expenses. No medical, dental, vision... nothing, unless they choose to offer it. The only thing businesses have to pay is corporate tax, PAYE (taken from employee's wage: known as PAYG here) SS/Medicare levy (also taken from employee's wage: also called something else, but trying to use US terms), and 9% toward the employee's retirement fund (like 401k). So really, the only things coming out of the corporate pocket is corporate tax and the 9% toward the 401k.

So, even from a corporate standpoint a UHC works out to be less costly!

What's really being lost in the UHC is the insurance company's ability to govern what healthcare you receive. Honestly, they are the only ones who stand to lose. I know of a person who was forced to go home ONE DAY after a c-section because the insurance company refused to pay for any more. She couldn't even stand up straight, let alone walk up to the third floor of our apartment complex! Here, you're given a minimum of 4 days post birth... for a vaginal delivery! My SIL spent 2 weeks in hospital after her c-section because she was having breastfeeding issues with her daughter, so she opted to stay in hospital where she'd have midwives at hand to help with every feed. She could have gone home and had a nurse come help her out, but they don't hang out all day at your house when you're perfectly healthy.

At present, it is the insurance company (not a doctor) who determines if you get treated, how you will be treated and for how long. My ex-husband (Australian living in the US) had a baby about a year ago. He had to fork out something like $5000 for a textbook pregnancy and delivery (it was her second child), and she was given 24 HOURS in hospital. My most expensive baby cost us about $95 all up (including all my OB visits, nuchal t and 18 week 4d scan, hospital, epi and anesthesiologist) and I got to stay 5 days for a textbook induction (complete with epi).

Angela - posted on 10/10/2011

Can someone tell me somethings that you hate about the UHC system? I have heard all the great things about it but what are the down sides? This might help me get a more rounded idea. All I have ever heard are neg things but they are not coming from people in the system only what someone else thinks or hears from someone else.

Shannen - posted on 10/10/2011

Those were some fantastic questions Angela. I won't reply to them though because Donna covered everything.

I honestly doubt that the US will ever convert to UHC simply because of to much politics. They are in it deep with the insurance companies and it would be a shitfight to change it over.

Nikki - posted on 10/10/2011

That was really interesting Feen.

Charlie - posted on 10/10/2011

Comparing salary websites for the USA and Australia who has UHC :
A physician in the US makes between $135,873 and $224,461

In Australia the salary is between : $145 - 240,000

So in fact they make around the same if not more given the exchange is fairly even doctors are given larger pay packets to work in isolated areas on top of the average earning.

I feel we have an excellent quality of services in Australia, I believe our birthing units are some of the most progressive

We are also the world leaders in cancer research amongst other great medical acheivements.

My father suffered Cancer that hit him hard and fast last year, he had a tumour the size of a grapefruit covering several organs which matastisised and spread all over , we knew he had a year to live and really the chemo was only enough keep him alive not to cure him but they never gave up hope on him and never ever looked at him as a lost cause they fought for his life to very last day he drew breath in the hospital , their care and committment to him was second to none and in the end after all the anguish we all suffered we didnt go home with anything but a heartfelt sorry and a hug.

We are in no way shape or form in debt for the care of my father but we are indebted to the tireless effort and support they gave him, in fact we never have been in debt for ANY medical related issues ...we dont even pay when we visit the local GP !

Australia also has comparitively low perscription cost too and services for childrens health and mental health are free of course you can opt to pay for services if you want a specific Dr or specialist and you always have the option to take private insurance if you wish ( I feel the only need for this personally would be to cover dental which isnt covered by UHC)

We have health incentives , government run programs for free in reguard to health and diet but they are in no way shape or form rules by any means they are options for those who choose to use it.

One thing I will say is tax has increased massively on ciggerettes one reason being the massive cost on health it has but again to smoke is a choice it hasnt been taken away its just you have to pay $15 a pack for them now which saw a lot of my friends quit.

It is interesting to not that the united nations named these countries as the highest quality of living :
1. Norway
2. AUSTRALIA
3. Iceland
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
8. France
9. Switzerland
10. Japan
13. UNITED STATES

Interesting because every single country above the USA has UHC.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

No, doctors won't lose their incentive to practice. If that were the case, there would be no doctors in UHC countries. I think some of this difference is because 1) they don't worry quite as much as a US doctor about malpractice (which I agreed with you that is a ridiculously expensive insurance to have for doctors, yet necessary in the US), 2) the cost of education is less (another area subsidised by the government) and 3) they still make a pretty damn good living. Doctors don't necessarily need to turn a profit, but take a bulk billing clinic. That's a clinic where the doctors do not charge patients but just accept the Medicare (our UHC name) payment which is approximately $32.15 for a standard 10 minute visit. The clinic needs to turn a profit, like any business, so that I can maintain and better their services. To do that, they charge each of the doctors a fee for renting the office space OR they make each doctor a partner of the business in which case they still contribute a portion of their income toward the business. Many just do the rental thing so that the doctor keeps the bulk of money and they run their own books. Either way, there is money flowing through to the clinic for staff, equipment, etc. I'm not positive, but I believe that the government also subsidises Superclinics (those are bulk billing/free clinics). There are plenty of practices that charge above the Medicare rate. My old GP (whom I loved), used to charge $60 for a visit. Clearly over the Medicare's payment of $32.15. I would receive the Medicare portion back from Medicare when I put in a claim, and the practice made money in the difference between the Medicare set fee and what I actually paid. This is common among practices here, but if you can't afford that you find a bulk billing clinic and go for free.

Some of our public hospitals are where Nobel Prize winners come out of. That's the short answer to your next question. The reasons doctors become doctors in the first place isn't because of the money, but because of the desire to help people. That's why I was a pre-med student. Unfortunately, in the US, the cost of the education is to high that only a few make it through and they are saddled with such astronomical student loans, it does become about the money. Here, a great doctor can be seen for $60 ($32.15 you'll get back from the government). Public hospitals work similarly to the old county hospitals in the US. Government facilities. Of course the hospitals complain that there's never enough money, but then who doesn't complain of that? They are overworked and underpaid and sometimes don't have ALL the equipment, but if you realise the difference in population it becomes a bit clearer of why some equipment isn't found in public hospitals. For instance, hyperbaric chambers. In Brisbane (capital of Queensland, the largest state in Australia), there is only ONE chamber. It's at a private hospital. If a diver goes diving and comes back bent, needing a visit (or three) to a chamber, she has 2 choices. 1) go to the chamber directly and pay for it or 2) go to the public hospital, get a referral to the chamber and then get treated for free. I've never been bent, but know plenty of people who have... none seriously thankfully. ALL have chosen route 2. What happens is that you go to the public hospital, which doesn't have the equipment, so are then referred to the private hospital with the equipment, therefore the government bears the cost because it is your right to be healthy and the public hospital cannot take care of you. It's not your fault the hospital doesn't have the equipment.

What you have to realise is that your insurance premium, regardless of what it is does NOT go to funding research, build hospitals or update equipment... it just goes to the pocket of the insurance company! When we pay our taxes, some of that money goes toward paying for all of those things. The federal government gives each state an amount of the taxes, plus sales tax is mostly kept within the state, so the money is allocated by the state to maintain all the public things like roads, hospitals, schools, etc.

Your grandma, for the most part, would get whatever treatment needed to keep her alive. I'll use my husband's grandfather as an example because it's suitable. he had skin cancer on his nose. BADLY. He was 78 at the time. First, they cut off the growth. It grew back within 3 months and came back worse. It was so bad they had to remove his nose! This man had heart problems, emphysema and a host of other ailments... basically, he was a walking skeleton on it's last ankle bone. Still, they removed his nose, he went through a few bouts of radiation and they considered reconstruction. Because he was in such a bad way and the area wasn't right, they nixed the reconstruction but instead had a prosthetic nose custom built for him. Then, some time passed and he started getting more sick. They then discovered that while they got all the cells from his nose, it had already migrated... to his liver. That was a death sentence. They gave him the options of either getting chemo and treatment or do nothing and just live out whatever days he had left. He opted for living because he knew that chemo would make him sick. BUT, he was given the option for treatment!

There are NO rules to control your health. NONE! I could take my family to nothing but maccas (oops, McDonald's) every day of their natural lives (or rather mine) and get as fat as we like... do NO exercise except for our thumb switching channels. The government advises us on how to live healthy and provides opportunities to get fit through tv advertising campaigns and the occasional leaflet in the mail. There are also government sponsored free activities, like walking, yoga/aerobics classes, tai chi, swimming, rock climbing... all sorts of activities that are free you can join... or not. The only ways they are trying to "control" our health is by the high taxes on things like cigarettes (it's about $15-20 for a pack) and alcohol (we pay an average of $35-45 for a case of beer). Those taxes also go toward paying for our healthcare, among other things.

Great questions by the way! Asking pointed things like this will get you greater insight into a UHC system.

Nikki - posted on 10/10/2011

@ Angela If you think about it this way, the US system is for profit, with UHC there is no profits, no shareholders because all the money goes back into the health care industry.

Doctors here still make a good income, they are not forced to work in certain areas but there are large financial incentives for doctors who work in remote and rural areas. I have never heard a doctor complain about their income, and I honestly hope that the reason they are a doctor is because they want to help people. For me, yes I will admit I am a little overly empathetic but if I were a doctor and I had a choice to stand by and watch people die without being allowed to treat them or given the freedom to do the job I wanted to do in the first place and save lives, I would take the pay cut.

Everyone gets the same health care, whether you are 2 months, 20 years or 99 and on your death bed, if you want treatment you will get it. Money is never brought into the equation doctors and nurses are there to save peoples lives and help people live a good quality of life.

Have you seen Sicko? If not you really should watch it. Our Australian UHC is similar to that of France the UK and Canada. Never in my life have I ever had to stress about health care and it's probably something I have taken for granted because I have never known anything different. I don't take it for granted any more, I am so thankful I will never have to worry about the health of myself and my family because I know we can get treatments without any stress or financial burden. PS our taxes are really not that high, a lot less than having to pay taxes and health insurance.

Sneaky - posted on 10/10/2011

Anjela in my experience, in Australia, your grandmother would have everything she want ed for those two months - surgery, chemo, hospitals or even just pain killers and daily visits by her GP, for 'free'.
As for rules to control our health - no. there are no rules about maintaining fitness, weight or preventative health if you do not want to. It seems like a lot of our tax dollars actually get spent on advertising for things like the 'be a swapper' campaign - which is a health initiative in Australia to suggest that people swap big meals for little ones, or indoor play for outdoor play. There is also a lot of anti-smoking advertising done by the government.

Angela - posted on 10/10/2011

I am told that the quality of the medical field will go down because the Dr's will loose the incentive to become better because the Gov sets a price for a service and that is it. Will the Dr's be taking a pay cut to the point they will stop practicing or go somewhere else?
My husband and I own our own business and understand the need to turn a profit to update equipment and expand. How does that work with UHC? Is there enough of a profit made to continue research, update equipment and build more hospitals? I ask because someone said their premium was $140/month (I think that was what I read) is that enough to pay for the services and the expansion?
Do they look at some patients as a lost cause? For example my 70 yr old Grandma was just told she has cancer and was given 2 months to live. She needed a surgery to reroute her insides around the tumor or she would not be able to eat or use the bathroom. The Dr's only gave her a 25% chance to make it thru surgery. She will still have atleast two more before she can go home. Would UHC do all of this to keep her around for what might be only another 2 months?
Have any of you on UHC noticed more rules set by the gov to control your health? What I mean is with food or activities or regarding weight issues with people as a way to keep the health care cost down?

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

Yeah... not for me. I can ignore a speedo for the most part, but it's not pretty. That's just one area I'd rather be left to the imagination... or the dancefloor.

BTW, I've been trying to google an image of him in speedos now... damn that curiosity! Couldn't find anything, but this: http://www.omgnews.com.au/andrew-okeefe-...

I love him even more now, knowing he's a babywearer!

Jodi - posted on 10/10/2011

Oh, I don't know Donna. Some of those buff young surf lifesavers..........they look a bit of alright in Speedos.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

Shannen, I actually have tri-citizenship... if that is the right classification. I'm a citizen of the US, Australia and Japan. (yes, I have 3 passports) In all reality though, I don't use or claim my Japanese citizenship since I've not lived there since I was a baby. It came in handy when I was there for 3 months working though.

Nikki, NO ONE looks good in speedos! lol No, I haven't seen him in budgie smugglers (god, I love Australia and the slang!)... but I don't think I'd want to see Hugh Jackman in them either. And he's pretty much tops in my laminated list!

Nikki - posted on 10/10/2011

Bahahahahah Donna, you can keep Andrew! Have you seen pictures of him in his speedo's! lol

Shannen - posted on 10/10/2011

Is that because you have dual citizenship? Would you only have to pay 1 tax if you dropped one country?

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

OMG, you know what's worse... if I won the lottery (or went onto Deal or No Deal -- secret crush on Andrew O'Keefe), it'd be tax free here, but I'd have to pay income tax (gambling wins) on it in the US!!!! And Uncle Sam just tells you to bend over and take it.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

Emma, the reason that Americans tend to think that way, I think is because that's the way it was sold. Because no pollies want to get rid of the insurance company contributions (simply PAC/lobbyist money), they tried to compromise on how a UHC would be set up. The insurance companies want their cut, so it would take a lot more to get pollies to scrap the whole insurance idea and just make it a tax.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (looking at our "insider" Jen K), but from what I understand it has been put out there that people MUST buy some kind of insurance policy, be it the public option or a private one. Is that right? If that is the case, then I can understand why people are seeing it as the government forcing them to buy into an insurance, because it is.

Shannen - posted on 10/10/2011

Everytime I go to the Dr he asks how I am and if I need to talk to anyone. I did see someone and it didn't cost anything.

Donna, That sucks to be paying double tax!

Stifler's - posted on 10/10/2011

I just got a referal to the division of rural practise from my doctor and it was 10 bucks a session.

Georgia - posted on 10/10/2011

Angela J, I actually agree with you about not trusting the government... ANY government! I'm a huge skeptic and jaded to the point of almost being a pale green. The only way that we are allowed to voice our opinions to government is by voting and writing our representatives (congressmen, senators, MPs, etc). The government is supposed to be comprised of people who represent the majority of the country's population, but doesn't always do that. We need to continually question the motives of government. It's our duty to do that! We have to try to keep the bastards honest as best we can. Unfortunately, from what I've seen lately, the government is not listening, hasn't been listening for quite some time. Your questions are valid and worth some concern. I think many people have similar concerns and the way to make sure you voice your opinions about these concerns is to VOTE.

With regard to UHC and the US paying system, as I've said in a previous post, I've been in both on various levels. I have friends in both, on various levels. I've seen people (like my Vietnam Vet father) go bankrupt from medical bills that would never happen under a UHC system. The only way to find out about what it's really like in a UHC system is to ask people using those services. People like me, Meggy and Angela B who have used both services can help you compare the two. Wouldn't you question why those of us (all Americans) who have used both systems wouldn't trade the UHC version for the world? Why is that?

I am a voting, tax paying American... even though I live and am a voting, tax paying citizen of Australia now too. Sucks to be me, a citizen of the only 2 countries on the planet who tax their citizens on their worldwide income! There is no way on earth I would move my family to the US, knowing what I know about the medical and education systems there let alone the other problems (like high unemployment).

Keep questioning, keep learning, keep your mind open.

BTW, Jodi, if you're on a Mental Health Plan (something your GP puts you on) you can get 6 sessions with a psychologist. Yes, I know you know this, but my MIL was on one (that was renewed after the sixth session about 4 times in a row) and she was seeing a therapist twice a week. Not sure if that's normal, but from what I gathered from her experience, you can go more than once a week if you're in a MHP and the therapist deems it necessary. And to Angela J, that's a free service too.

Stifler's - posted on 10/10/2011

From what I gather a lot of people in the USA are under the impression that UHC is the government forcing everyone to purchase insurance even if they can't afford it rather than paying extra tax so everyone can have free hospital care without forking out thousands for insurance.

Shannen - posted on 10/10/2011

Angela, Debating isn't specifically about debating your side or not. I have found that this group of women as much as they love a good debate are more then willing to answer questions and listen to other opinions and experiences.
I encourage you to stick around and post more.
I'd actually like to hear your full opinion on UHC after of course you have researched it some more.

Angela - posted on 10/10/2011

Thank you I will.

Johnny - posted on 10/10/2011

Angela, if it is the case that it was not you posting, then you do not have much to be sorry for. I will say that people have told us this sort of thing before and it has turned out not to be true. But I think most people around here like to give others the benefit of the doubt.

So what I would say is that I would encourage you to keep posting, ask some questions, share your own experiences, have an open mind, venture into some other threads and treat others with dignity. You will receive the same in return.

Angela - posted on 10/10/2011

Before you all start yelling at me please let me explain a few things. I am not a debater at all. I married into a family that loves to debate and thought joining this group might help me.
I had came across this debate and was talking to my sister-in-law about it. Her family was here visiting and thought it would be good conversation. She asked if she could read the posts and maybe post her thoughts about UHC. I didn't think it would be a big deal and told her she could. I had left for a birthday party for my side of the family and didn't think much of it after that. I find out that she was up all night posting. I thought I would check to see what was said. All I can say is I am sorry. I am sorry for some of the comments and also for some of your stories. I felt the need to post because I feel she misrepresented me. Not that I really ever posted before this conversation but if I ever want to I dont want to be remembered for what she said.

On that note I will tell you my thoughts on the subject but do know although I couldn't read all of the pages because my two youngest kids like my attention I tried to read as much as they would let me. So here are my thoughts:
Before this debate I was 100% against UHC. I say before because I think I need to do some research on my own. I have only listened to my in-laws views and could see where they were coming from. Reading the posts have brought some questions to mind I will look at without their help. I do not know if it will change my mind or not but I do not like that there are people like Kelly out there without help. I also worry how it will affect our country and if it will be similar to social security where we still must pay into it but I hear it will not be around when our time comes to use it. I am not sure I can trust the gov to do as they say they will and continue to provide the service they promise in the begining. I worry about the debt this country has and if they will you the funds properly. I could keep going on but I wont. I hope I can be forgiven for allowing her on here and also for her comments. For now I think I will go back to just reading and not posting. Sorry again.

Nikki - posted on 10/10/2011

My local GP has a psychologist there once a week, you can go without a referral and it's completely free. Some of our medical centres even bulk bill acupuncture.

When I was pregnant I was assigned a psychologist from the hospital I saw him once a week and he would ring me every second day, all for free. In Victoria (Australian state) when you have a baby the health nurse visits you at home rather than you having to go to the clinic which I think it great.

Rosie - posted on 10/10/2011

a lot of people that are depressed are going to be depressed over money...and then to have to go spend more money to get back mentally is just not doable for a lot of people. i wonder why i only went twice.

Iris - posted on 10/10/2011

SICKO!!! I can not express how important it is for people to open their eyes and watch that documentary!

Jodi - posted on 10/10/2011

I am pretty sure they decided mental health was just as important in preventative care as physical health and Medicare now covers up to 1 psychologist appointment a month if you have a referral. It's only new, but I think it is great, because when I had my breakdown and was seeing my psychologist, it was costing $150 a session. Most people couldn't afford that.

Rosie - posted on 10/10/2011

i've seen one for $150 an hour...

Stifler's - posted on 10/10/2011

I saw a psychologist for $10 an hour here.

Iris - posted on 10/10/2011

One more thing. At the age of 31, I went in for a lump in my breast, it came out normal. I gave the dr's my whole med history. I was told I was in a high risk of getting breast cancer. Still, every time I've asked for a monogram I've been refused. I'm hoping this year because of my age I might get it. The last Dr that felt me up a year ago, didn't even bother to check under my arms, just around the nipples and about inch and a half further. I asked him if he could do a further check but no, he said he'd checked were needed to be.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 10/10/2011

"In order to bring substandard up you must bring excellence down. I am not willing to trust my childrens life or my life with anything but excellence."



Angela j. Then come up to Canada. We have excellent health care and won't force you to mortgage grandma in order to get it :) Of course you do have to have a Visa and a care card. But IMO it's worth it. Plus in most provinces your provincial health care will cover travel expenses if you can't have the care you require in your town. That's what Alberta's provincial insurance does for a friend of mine.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 10/10/2011

I'm just going to jump on the: Where are you from,.Don't you understand liberty?

I'm from New York. The same state where the first responders to 9/11/01 at the WTC had to lobby for YEARS to have their health concerns taken care of.

I currently live in British Columbia Canada. They definitely understand liberty. I believe Canada's been in the same 2 world wars that the US was in and they've been our allies for years.

Canadians are extremely patriotic too. Hmm and their government gives a damn about their people.

Sorry you all. I gorged yesturday on our early Thanksgiving dinner and I really need a nap.

Charlie - posted on 10/10/2011

Laura there are free mental health services here too.

Iris - posted on 10/10/2011

“I don't expect to change your minds, I know that your mind is made up. There are many however who just sit and read the posts that are making up their mind and I hope that I might provide one of them with a differing opinion that might be in line with their values.”

Gee, I don't even know what to say to you or where to begin. Your overall tone through your posts is "me, myself and I". You also sound like you really don't know anything about UHC, even though it has been basically spelled out for you in several posts by Angela B, John and others. Your posts simply sound like you are walking your marry way with blinders on.
Sympathy? No. Compassion? No. Empathy? No.
I know you are not talking about changing any ones mind, but you sure made me feel because I'm for UHC, I'm one of the "good guys".
And what freedom are you talking about? In our current situation none of us are free, so far from it. We have to put our life in the hands of the insurance companies, that is like a death sentence in itself.
Both my grandmothers had breast cancer, my aunt had breast cancer. I highly doubt that I'd qualify for insurance, I'm probably too high of a risk.
Kelly had cancer so now she is too much of a risk for the insurance companies to be willing to insure her. Is this what you call freedom??!
I call it corrupt MAFIA that needs to be stopped. EVERY human being should have a right to affordable health care, and I am more than willing to pay more taxes to have that happen.

Jen - posted on 10/10/2011

"Instead of calling them taxes, you could call them good Samaritan fees if it makes you feel better?"

Now Kate, you and I both know that the Good Samaritan story is one of those you don't really have to pay attention to.

Jen - posted on 10/10/2011

"Gee....I do everything she mentioned to save $$ and yet, I STILL cannot carve out that $750,000 from my budget. And I don't even have a mortgage! We purchased a very small house that we were able to pay for after about 7 years by making extra payments when we had the money."

Kelly, if you want to divorce your hubby and marry me I'd be happy to put you on my policy.

naturally tha'ts not an option but I would do it if I could to help you.

That's me choosing compassion.

Rosie - posted on 10/10/2011

you know, i keep on thinking about this whole no choice, or no say what is done with taxes thing that angela j keeps crying about. where the FUCK is my choice when they used MY taxes to pay for this god awful war? did i get a say on that? is it unconstitutional?

Jen - posted on 10/10/2011

"Where do you read that it is constitutionally right for the gov to get involved in health care?"

There is also nothing in the Constitution that *prevents* it either. That's a very salient point I think.

Becky - posted on 10/10/2011

Regarding liberty and freedom, Angela J, have you ever lived in a country where there is no freedom? I live in a country where we have universal health care. I can still:
Wear whatever I want
Worship wherever, however, whoever, whenever I want to, or not at all.
Say whatever I want, as long as I am not inciting hatered.
Own a gun if I want to
Send my children to whatever type of school I want to send them to.
Vote!
Get an education and have any job I want (and am qualified for, of course), as a woman.
Browse whatever sites I want to on the internet.
Spend my money however I want to (aside from paying taxes, which every developed nation requires)
Choose where, how, and when I want to receive health care services.

In many countries, very few of these things, if any, are options. Some countries dictate what you can believe. Some censor the internet to the point that you can't even access social media sites. Some will kill you for committing adultry. Not that I think infidelity is okay, but I don't think it should be punishable by death either! In some countries, you simply do not have any choice regarding education or health care. Your choice is, send your kids to the one local school that is corrupt and will pass your children based on your ability to bribe them or don't send them to school at all. As a result, many people, especially girls, have very limited education. Your health care choices are walk 2 days with your very sick child to the nearest clinic, or let them die. If you develop cancer or have a special needs child, you probably do not have any treatment options at all.

THAT is a lack of freedom and liberty. To compare a country that has UHC or a socialist government to that is assine, absurd, and insulting to those who live in countries where they truly have no choice or freedom!

Kate CP - posted on 10/10/2011

Also, property taxes pay for the schools your kids attend. Taxes are a necessary evil: they pay for police, fire departments, EMT services, hospitals, libraries, working roads, schools...taxes may suck but that's just a part of civilized society.

Instead of calling them taxes, you could call them good Samaritan fees if it makes you feel better?

Becky - posted on 10/10/2011

Actually Laura, I posted about the free mental health, and I'm in Canada. And I should clarify that it's not all free. We do have mental health services that are free though. There are mental health clinics that are available on a walk-in or appointment basis that do short-term crisis work and assessments. For rural areas we have a mobile mental health unit that will come out and help in a crisis. And there are mental health services available through the health system - eating disorder clinics at the hospital, help for PPD, a forensic adolescent unit for teens involved in criminal behavior... It would depend on the issue and how you accessed the mental health services. For short-term, crisis, or more medically based issues, yes, you can access them through the health or mental health system for free. If you were looking for marriage counselling or longer-term counselling or something specific like art therapy, then you would go to a private psychologist or counsellor and you would pay. Many of our supplemental insurance plans will pay for that though.

Karla - posted on 10/10/2011

My apologies, I can’t ignore it… so here’s a few not so random thoughts…



From Angela J. “Where are you from? Do you understand liberty?”



Yes, but do you?

lib•er•ty   [lib-er-tee]

noun, plural -ties.

1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.

3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.

5. permission granted to a sailor, especially in the navy, to go

A. Regarding the definition of Liberty…

1. – UHC – not arbitrary or cruel, check

2. – independent , check

3. – most people agree UHC isn’t interference, but rather insurance, so check.

4. – um, check.

5. – and not applicable.



UHC would not get in the way of my Liberty! Hoot, hoot! I’m excited, can’t wait to tell my Representative about this one. (He has a lot of stock in Pharmaceuticals, so I don’t think he’ll care.)



And Angela J’s comment:

“If the gov didn't take my property taxes I could probably afford to use a private school or home school.”



I believe you said you have a family of seven, so are you freaking kidding???? Tuition for one kid would be at least $3,000 per year – what kind of crazy-high property tax do you pay that would allow you to send your kids to private school with that amount? What a freaking joke! No, just no. Others’ property taxes, including businesses and the rich folks, are the ones who predominately are covering the educational costs for your kids. I’m not sure how you’ll rectify that with your way of thinking.



@ Angela J “Explain to me how it is that I should give more power to a gov. (That is inescapable ) to help people that I don't know when those people can be helped by people in their own community and churches in their own community aside from I'm a meany if I don't. Ready go.”



Ready go?… as you command.



You shouldn’t give more power to government to help people. Just don’t, you know, because you don’t owe me or my family anything and I owe you nothing. As you posted earlier “compassion is voluntary,” so just go with that. Just ignore the people who can’t afford health insurance, ignore the people who can’t even go to church, or hell especially ignore the atheists who do not have a Christian community to turn to, and ignore the people who can’t go to work, ignore those who have no family to turn to, ignore those who have been denied by the great corporate insurance companies because, damn it, profits are good.



Btw, do you really think a community or church is going to foot Kelly’s $12,000 a month bill, or her $750.000 treatments?



Bottom line, if you cannot understand why you should support UHC, and nothing Angela B, Cathy, or Johnny or Kelly have said has affected your position, then don’t expect some miracle reason to pop on your screen. (I am beginning to wonder if you are skipping the longer meaty posts, because with them I notice your definite lack of acknowledgement.) Most the reasons to support UHC have been presented.



@ Angela J “I still ask is there no other choice but the system we have now or UHC?”



Yes and (in the United States) that is what The Affordable Care Act is – it’s not Universal Healthcare – that’s what Obama wanted, but he compromised away from it. The “mandatory” part of ACA is buying Insurance from Corporate Insurance Companies. The other “mandatory” is that (eventually) the Insurance companies cannot turn anyone away. The difficult part for individual buyers will be the cost of premiums.



Insurance Companies will have to justify any premium increase of 10% or more. This goes into effect in 2014 (I believe) so currently the wonderful and caring Insurance Companies (with their magnificent profits that allow excellent health care in America – sarcasm) are raising premiums at a phenomenal rate during this pre-regulation period.



I would have much rather had Universal Healthcare.



Here’s a decent synopsis of the ACA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Pro...



And from:

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Libraries/Commi...

What’s important to Americans…

”Having the freedom to make decisions about your life: The freedom to make decisions about one’s life includes having the financial resources to pursue one’s goals. More explicitly, the “job lock” phenomenon, in which millions of Americans stay with a job they don’t like because it provides health insurance it provides, is a clear barrier to being able to freely make decisions about how your life plays out.”



@ Angela J, I double dog dare you to watch “Sicko” and also, you might want to read “The jungle.” Though with your “compassion is voluntary” it might not phase you.



Edited to add:

The Jungle is a novel by Upton Sinclair written in 1906. It's about immigrants working in the meat packing industry. The graphic portrayal of the working conditions and corruption of the meatpacking industry was true to the conditions at the time. It shows why Unions and government regulations where needed.



http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Bantam-Clas...

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/10/2011

Australia has free mental health?
So you could go see a counselor for free?
Seriously ever since my mom died I have wished I could go see a counselor to talk and work out my issues but tis way too expensive. So I just put aside those thoughts for now.