Vaccine vs. no vaccines... NOT a debate

[deleted account] ( 18 moms have responded )

I know, I know.... This is a highly debatable subject, but I really do NOT want a debate and will lock this if it turns into one.

I just know that a lot of pro-vax people (which I am one... mostly) have done a lot of research and I'm just wondering if this thing my friend posted has any new info that you haven't already researched... or what the validity of it all is.

Thanks.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/novem...

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[deleted account]

This sort of lost all credibility with me with the statement "cancer and other viruses". Cancer is not a virus nor is it contagious (for the most -- like everything, there are exceptions).

Sylvia - posted on 12/16/2011

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Sorry, Teresa, I couldn't get all the way through the article -- the combination of bad writing, wackadoo formatting, and complete insanity is too much for me this early in the morning :P

The Jewish angle is deeply weird. The idea that "polio was a very rare infectious disease" -- seriously, is this person for real?! Yes, it was rare in North AMerica before the nineteenth century, but in the first half of the twentieth century it affected hundreds of thousands of people and killed tens of thousands. (Just in North America.) We're talking about KIDS. Dead or permanently disabled KIDS. The polio vaccine was not a solution in search of a problem!

I also like "just measles". Measles kills people, y'all.

The best part is how they correlate an increase in cancer with an increase in vaccinations. They don't give any actual data on cancer rates, which would be actual information; they just talk vaguely about a "monstrous increase in cancer" (quoting a guy who allegedly used to work at "the British Cancer Hospital," which as far as I can tell doesn't actually exist -- as you might already have guessed from its name). It's true, cancer is now among the top few causes of death among children in North America. (The leading cause is accidents, except among infants under age 1, for whom it's "Developmental and genetic conditions that were present at birth" -- see http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/...). Why? Because kids are no longer dying in large numbers from ... all the diseases we now vaccinate them against. Infant mortality in the developed world is, like, astronomically lower now than it was 100 years ago. It's even dramatically lower than 50 years ago. Improvements to sanitation and hygiene, the invention of antibiotics, and other factors obviously share the credit for this -- but routine large-scale immunization is in there too.

No, I changed my mind: the best part is the table listing life expectancy, child mortality, and autism diagnosis rates to the number of vaccines kids receive before age 5. Because absolutely nothing else distinguishes the US from the other 5 countries listed (4 Scandinavian social democracies and Japan) -- it's totally irrelevant that they all have lower income inequality, greater ethnic homogeneity, longer paid maternity/parental leave, UNIVERSAL FRAKKING HEALTH CARE, lower obesity rates, higher breastfeeding rates, more active lifestyles, much lower litigation rates ... Oh, no, it's all down to the vaccines! Wouldn't it be fun to see how that chart looks if we pick 5 other countries that also give fewer routine vaccinations than the US? Like, say, Somalia, South Africa, Afghanistan, Laos, and Kazakhstan? (Actually I don't know for sure how many vaccinations are given in these countries. But it seems reasonable to conjecture that it's fewer than 36.)

Kate CP - posted on 12/15/2011

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That article is actually saying that the Hep B vaccine is responsible for the AIDS epidemic in the US.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time believing this one...

Sylvia - posted on 12/16/2011

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This article is an excellent example of how if you cherry-pick your data with sufficiently single-minded determination, you can make them say just about anything :P

Amanda - posted on 12/16/2011

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"Dr. Maurice Hillerman, who on camera admitted that Merck's Hepatitis B vaccines, contaminated with a virus, caused the AIDS epidemic in the US."



WHAT? Since when did a vaccine cause AIDS in usa??

Do some research you will find that this man co discovered the virus that causes AIDS, which is HIV. He also made over 3 dozen vaccines which have saved countless lives.



"For Jews who have almost religiously believed in medical authorities about vaccines and poo-pooed those worried about the safety of vaccines, they might want to notice that Hillerman was Jewish."



Why is this statement even in this? What does it matter what religion someone is when we are talking about vaccines?



" He now treats his young patients for autism and other neurologic injuries from vaccines.:"



Ok that is the final draw for me and this so called artical. We all know that vaccines do not cause autism, and as soon as a site trys to claim it does it loses all crediblity with me.





*Added note* I should of kept reading god they go into how the government is trying to strealize us with vaccines. Well I have to say they are doing a shit job as I have 3 kids already, and always been up to date on all my vaccines and boosters. :0)

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Jennifer - posted on 12/15/2011

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Polio is a VERY SERIOUS threat! I know a few who had it. They have malformed limbs and many other issues! To dicount it is foolish! I dislike fear mongers. I dislike alarmist. If you don't want to vaccinate, you should be able to state why without acting like an idiot, and give rationale reasons. And by the way, I delayed my kids shots, and my youngest hasn't had any.

[deleted account]

"I only posted that I don't do flu shots and won't do Gardasil, but have no problems w/ the 'general' vaccines. ;)"

Oh gardisil is ok. I just got my son shot up last month with his first of the series. I think I was the first parent in the area who got it once our insurance agreed to pay for it.

[deleted account]

Yeah, I'm not specifically worried about any of our kids w/ or w/out the vaccinations. Thanks.

I only posted that I don't do flu shots and won't do Gardasil, but have no problems w/ the 'general' vaccines. ;)

Elfrieda - posted on 12/15/2011

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Just leaving aside the article, I don't think there is any way for you to talk to your friend about this without starting something. When people buy into conspiracy theories, they stop making sense and logical thought doesn't really apply anymore.

(and this is coming from someone who is delaying vaxing my son until he's two "because it doesn't feel right", haha!)



My somewhat educated opinion is this: Your kids will be fine because they have the vaccinations, so there's no reason to be scared of her kids. And her kids will more than likely be fine, too. I think if they make it to adulthood without catching anything there are only 2 to worry about: mumps and chicken pox, which are very serious as adults and impact male fertility. If they were girls they'd have to worry about rubella, which causes birth defects in pregnant women.



So you have some time to bring up these concerns with your friend, or with her sons as they hit puberty and can make some of these decisions on their own.

Jane - posted on 12/15/2011

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Hep B vaccine caused the AIDS epidemic? Seriously?! Just because you are a scientist doesn't mean you aren't also a looney tune.

Ashley - posted on 12/15/2011

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Polio was devestating, My grandmother has it and to hear how sick she got and nearly died on several occasions. We are lucky she made it and we are all here

[deleted account]

"The following real-world estimates are based on reports from a law firm:"

Yeah, cause we know how credible lawyers suing someone for money are...

[deleted account]

Honestly, this whole article just seems extremely paranoid - as if vaccines are a Nazi conspiracy. It's hard to take it seriously in light of some of the wild claims. Not to mention the fact that referring to Polio and Measles as "diseases of insignificant threat" is really stretching things.

[deleted account]

Yeah, I definitely think it sounds weird and off, but that's why I posted it HERE. My best friend (also the mother of my 'nephews') posted it. She doesn't vaccinate. I want to say something, but don't know WHAT to say and definitely don't want to start anything....

[deleted account]

Well... I'm just asking a question that I want answered cuz I'm not a researcher. If it turns into debate before I get an answer.... post will get locked and I just won't get an answer... assuming I'm ON COM when it happens... if not, I'll just lock it the next time I'm on. ;)

I'm only posting it in DM cuz I know and trust the researchers here. ;)

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