What is an appropriate age to start spanking?

Elizabeth - posted on 06/29/2011

I can see the misunderstanding about the bruises when taken without the context of the rest of the post.

I have another little one to prepare for the day he leaves the nest and I hope that I will be able to say that I never spanked him rather than like his big sis saying I spanked her 4 times. Two of those times I regretted and have learned from them. As I've said the other two where safety issues and nothing else I had done was working and I had been trying for months and I needed results fast. I believe in those two incidences that I did what I had to do to keep her safe when I was not there to protect her. Perhaps if I had others to get advice from rather than multiple books, I would have done something different. Perhaps I would have done the same. I really don't know.

What I do know is that I weighed the pros and cons at great length. What I do know is that if/when the time comes with my son that I am starting to run out of options, I will ask for advice on CoM and hopefully I will be able to go spank free.

Amber - posted on 06/28/2011

You beat me to it Liz.

The way that post read, it really sounded like you beat her until she was bruised to 1-1/2 months for binding her breasts. There is clarification now and the post reads entirely different, but at that point it sounded bad. And it did kind of sound like something a troll would write to set fire to the thread.
Also-fetish is an obsession, it isn't necessarily a sexual obsession.

Liz - posted on 06/28/2011

I think Lisa was just trying to be funny. I don't think she seriously thought Elizabeth was a pedo spanking fetishist.

There was more than one person who thought Elizabeth was binding her daughter's breasts and/or beating her to the point of bruises.

Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but the confusion was horrible... in a funny way.

Melissa - posted on 06/28/2011

Can I get an AMEN!

√v^√v^√♥ - posted on 06/28/2011

Lisa Moreau, you just called Elizabeth Elliott a child molestor?!?! Really? That's disgusting and degrading and the most obnoxious and offensive thing I have yet to read on CoM.

fet·ish noun fetishes, plural
An inanimate object worshiped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit
A course of action to which one has an excessive and irrational commitment
A form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc


If that is not offensive and a personal attack, I don't know what is because you said she is a spanking fetishist.. and she spanked her daughter. So you insinuated that she gets off on spanking her daughter?! Wow......... unbelievable. I hope you do apologize to her, that's appalling to call her that. I'd even call it slander. That's just not any old attack......... that is a horrifying accusation you put out there for all to read. Disagree with someone, sure, but don't call them names and degrade every part of their being.

Elizabeth - posted on 06/28/2011

Peggy, the bruises are the ones on her breasts that she created by binding them. I have not spanked her for this. Matter of fact, none of the things that I have designated as a spanking offense have I had to follow through on. Not because of the strength of my spank either, the last time I spanked her (7yrs old?), she had a confused look on her face and said with honest questioning "Isn't a spank supposed to hurt?"

Elizabeth - posted on 06/28/2011

For those who think I am a troll, please reread my post. I said that I spanked my daughter FOUR times in her life. I said that two of those times I saw in hindsight other options besides the multiple ways that I had already tried, and I would have been able to ask advice from other mom's on this site.

The other two times were dangerous behavior that continued to reoccr and needed corrected. I tried multiple ways. Spanking was my last resort. I would have continued to try other methods however, her dad who had visitation did not keep a good eye on her and the solution needed to be quick. I hated spanking her, but I would have hated getting a phone call from her dad saying that she was in the hospital, kidnapped or in the morgue a lot more.

I did not spank my daughter for anything else. There were potentially dangerous behavior that after trying multiple other methods, I let her know that if the behavior was continued that it would be a spanking offense. I bought her the high heeled dress up shoes, why would I spank her for wearing them. The fact that she was unstable in them on regular floor was okay, it was walking on the stairs that was a problem. As I said she had already had a fall on the stairs when she was only walking that gave her two black eyes. I myself have problems with my tailbone because of a childhood fall down the stairs. Most of my cousins have broken a bone from stairs falls and I had a relative who died in a stairs accident. The more times she ran on the stairs or she walked wobbly and clumsily in high heels on them, the greater the chance of major repercussions.

As to binding her breasts. This can cause permanant damage to the breast, vascular, and lymphatic tissue in the area. Short term it constricts blood flow to the area which can cause tissue atrophy or death. It constricts lymph flow which is a suspect of breast cancer. In just a little over two years, she will be off the age where if she wants to do something that will cause PERMANENT (cap for emphasis only) damage then that will be her choice. I have only ever made something a spanking offense when there was a strong possibility of physical harm. More than anything it gives her pause to realize how serious I am about this that I would even consider spanking. BTW my daughter told me when I said that binding herself again was a spanking offense she grumpily told me "Yeah, I wish you would have told me that earlier. Believe me, I'm not going to do it EVER again."

Frankly, I am shocked, slightly amused, somewhat disgusted and highly offended for the comment that I sound like a spanking fetishist, and although I don't expect one, I do deserve an apology.

Peggy - posted on 06/28/2011

Elizabeth Elliott..."The bruises from this last time are still present 1 1/2 months later."... that is NOT a spanking... that is a BEATING.. two very different things!!

Chatty - posted on 06/28/2011

"I grew up with a millitary dad; therefore, we ALL learned respect for our parents thru spanking!!!"

Patricia, there's a difference between fear and respect. I was actually saddened when I read your post. No one should have to "survive" their childhood, and like someone else *coughs* (LIZ) already pointed out, I'm not sure that you can actually say they survived anything. Don't you want your children to thrive, not survive.

Jenni - posted on 06/28/2011

Melissa, this IS a debate. I started this thread, in a debating community because it is indeed a debate. I wanted to know if parents who spank felt there was an age at which it was appropriate or an age where they felt it was too young. I was specifically wanting to know why a parent would spank a very young toddler (say under the age of 2).
I wanted to stay on topic because there has been sooo many general spanking debates lately. I wanted to know about this specific aspect of spanking because of a thread I was involved in where a mother was spanking her 13 month old for slapping.
Anyways, I already said I was niave to think we'd stay on topic and I don't mind the life that my thread has taken on.

Carry on ladies.

Melissa - posted on 06/28/2011

About 2 y/o. We spanked our children when they were young and really had no need to after about 7 y/o. I feel like if you do it young they will know your expectations and after a certain point "the look" will get the same result.

TealRose - posted on 06/28/2011

And being spanked and hit by the two people who were supposed to love and protect me, and who weren't even angry .. frightened me even more. If someone can hit me when calm cool and collected .. they can do it anytime was my reasoning .... Sad...

Teresa - posted on 06/28/2011

I know nothing I say will make a difference to nonspankers, but I'll say it anyway.... once. Not everyone feels that spanking is wrong. On the occasion that I've spanked.... I haven't taken time to calm down to spank. I've spanked before the point of getting angry. I don't agree w/ waiting to spank, but that doesn't mean I spank while angry. If my child's behavior has gotten out of control to the point that I'm angry w/ him (or her... in the past).... it's too late for a spanking anyway.

Liz - posted on 06/28/2011

I survived being spanked....and so did my children : )



I don't want to seem like a creep, but the information is there on your public profile for all to see -- you posted that you had to kick your daughter and her "druggie" boyfriend out of your house, and that you miss your granddaughter whom they won't let you see?



Are you sure they survived your hand-smacking for touching things on tables and spanking? Are you sure you survived your father's punishments?



I mean this as gently as I possibly can.



(Just to clarify: I like to look at people's profiles and see their children's names and pictures, because I think it's sweet. I didn't expect to find that kind of information.)

Tara - posted on 06/28/2011

I have always wondered about that too.
If you are not spanking when angry and instead have calmed down, explained to the child that you are going to strike them and then proceed to calmly do so, it's almost worse than a quick smack when you're mad.
It seems more calculated, more planned and thought out. And if someone can take that much time to prepare to strike their child, couldn't they use that time to think of or implement another strategy? In all likelihood the offending act has already been done is finished with. So if you have calmed down, the child is no longer engaged in the act of defiance etc. then why the need to hit them?
Why not try some dialogue? Or some space apart from the group? Or some chores or other work to be done as restitution?
Why not operate more like a civilized court of law, y'know the kind society actually relies on all the time?
Why not sentence them to some other form of restitution for the crime, one that makes them think about what they did? Why resort to smacking? This only makes them think that what they did made you hit them.
Not why what they did made you so mad, or why it is unacceptable in the world.
Hitting accomplishes nothing valuable.
It may appear to work but does not provide any real tools to cope in society, to solve problems, to use non-violent interventions or solutions to issues at hand.

Minnie - posted on 06/28/2011

A question... if you don't spank in anger then why do it

Exactly. If you've given yourself ample time to calm down haven't you taken enough time to come up with a creative solution to the problem, one that will both resepect your childs body and mind and teach?

Minnie - posted on 06/28/2011

Yeah, I think that's really sad, smacking hands for touching things. What a way to encourage exploration and a love for learning. :(

My mother never spanked us. I have the utmost respect for her. I cannot see how her striking my body would in anyway have helped me respect her.

Tara - posted on 06/28/2011

Patricia,
When a child begins touching things on a table that is a good time to start smacking their hand?!?!!?

A toddler touches things because he can. A toddler touches things to explore his world, a toddler touches things to find out about his world.
Why don't you put things on the table that he CAN touch, like soft cloths, plastic figurines, building blocks, soft coasters etc. etc. etc. so that he may explore his new found freedom safely without pissing you off so much that you have to smack them.
Kids will touch things, good god, why wouldn't they.
Why not make their world safe for them instead of waiting around for a chance to smack them for touching things that YOU should remove from his reach to keep him SAFE.
Your role is not to protect your precious table items, your role is to give your child a safe place to explore his world, you role is to provide enriching opportunities for your child to learn about textures, smells, temperatures, hot, cold, soft, hard, scratchy, smooth etc. etc.
Your role is also to teach them about safety as they grow.
But slapping a toddler's hand because they reach for things?!?!
That is abusive parenting in my books.
And in Canada it is illegal to smack a child under 2.
Smacking your toddlers hand for TOUCHING things on a table is not discipline it is cruel punishment for something the adult sees as a crime.
The child is only exploring their world, they are innocently touching something new, and all of a sudden the person who is supposed to care for them, swoops over, smacks that tender chubby little hand and yells "NO" and then waits to see if he will touch again just so she can yell "NO" and smack him yet again.
What is that teaching your child??
Not to explore his environment lest he receive a painful swat from the person he trusts with his safety.
That is called "Lazy Ass parenting".

Minnie - posted on 06/28/2011

She sounds a lot like a troll. Spanking for walking in dress up shoes, and then the binding of her breasts..sounds like a spanking fetishist to me.

Tara - posted on 06/28/2011

Elizabeth, you spank her for binding her breasts???
Why??? Why is this a spank worthy offense to you??
How was her binding her own breasts harmful to her or anyone else?
How could you justify spanking a child (one who has well endowed breasts, so I guess not really a child at all). for binding her own body by herself because SHE wanted to.

This seems really borderline abusive.
If she is old enough to go to Anime conventions and has large well endowed breasts, do you really think you are teaching her anything by spanking her??
Honestly?
I can't see how this makes any sense to anyone?
Anyone? Come on, anyone agree with this? Does anyone else think this is weird and possibly a little controlling?
So her boobs were bruised? She obviously didn't care and didn't want the big boobies showing so she made a CHOICE with her OWN BODY. To bind them for her OWN reasons.
Good God. Let the child have some control over her own body!

TealRose - posted on 06/28/2011

I locked my doors... no running out. I used reins on my toddlers .. no running off.

I live in a 'foreign' country now - and don't always understand what is being told to me - although my Portuguese is coming on well now - should I be spanked for not understanding, or should I be shown, demonstrated, told, explained to by the shop/café owners, bank people and even the police ?

I fail to see how hitting anyone helps them 'respect' their parent or anyone else bigger than themselves. I know I didn't. It's not respect you are giving OR receiving from the child it's fear. And fear teaches nothing. Nothing good.

Elizabeth - posted on 06/28/2011

I have spanked my daughter who is almost 16 only 4 times in her life. Hindsight shows me how I could have avoided two of those times. The other two were matters of safety. First time was when she kept running to get out in the street (we lived in a trailer park and a lot of kids played in the road.) Second time was when she kept leaving my side at the store. Had her dad watched her better when she was with him, I may not have even spanked her then, but it was dangerous behavior that needed corrected. Before I spanked her, I got down to her level and talked to her. I told her that I didn't want to spank her, but I needed her to understand how dangerous this was and there was a chance that she would get hurt really bad and I needed her to remember. Then I spanked her butt one time and told her that it was a lot less pain then if something happened. Then I cried a little. Through the years, I have told her some things that were a spanking offense: running on the stairs, walking on the stairs in her adult play dress up shoes(she was really wobbly and already had a stairs incident just walking on them that led to two black eyes,) touching a gun even if looked like it was fake (not bright colored obvious fakes) without adult permission, and a few months ago, I told her that binding her breasts was a spanking offense. (She goes to anime conventions and dresses up as characters. She is well endowed so she bound her breasts twice when she went as a male character so she looked more the part. The bruises from this last time are still present 1 1/2 months later.) When I say it is a spanking offense, she knows how serious I am because it is so rare that I even give that designation and just that is enough to correct behavior.

I would never have spanked my daughter before she was able to understand what I was saying to her.

Patricia - posted on 06/28/2011

I grew up with a millitary dad; therefore, we ALL learned respect for our parents thru spanking!!! Sometimes just the way dad looked at us told us not to do the mischievioud act we were planning....bcuz if not....we knew a spanking was coming!!! I survived being spanked....and so did my children : )

Patricia - posted on 06/28/2011

When a toddler begins touching things on tables etc....thats a good time to smack their hands! When they break the rules...tell a lie....thats a good time to begin spanking.......

Stifler's - posted on 06/28/2011

A question... if you don't spank in anger then why do it. Once I've thought it through when tempted to smack my kid's butt, I don't feel like smacking is appropriate at all. Not picking on anyone just asking.

Liz - posted on 06/27/2011

I'm struck by the language of Casey's posts, with emphasis on laws, authority, "proper channels," and correct behaviour (especially in public).



Johnny is right. We just aren't on the same page at all.

Bobbie - posted on 06/27/2011

the appropriate age is the age in which the child becomes aware of communication and understands it in addition to the ability to follow instruction. When the child is able to willfully choose to not follow direction.
As a foot note I am very sorry that I spanked my kids. The reason being that I now realize that it wasn't to direct them but I used it to disperse my anger and frustration.

Teresa - posted on 06/27/2011

It wasn't a word....at least I don't think so. I made it up. I like villianification too.

I'm not sure if I've ever suggested spanking to someone as an option or not. Possible, but I usually avoid suggesting it. I DO think it sometimes though. ;)

Chatty - posted on 06/27/2011

Just for the record, I stopped villianizing (is that even a word?) spanking a long while back because I realize that wasn't doing anyone any favors. I don't believe that all spankers are horrible people who beat the shit out of their kids, but I will never ever tell anyone that spanking is a viable option. There are ALWAYS better options.

Teresa - posted on 06/27/2011

No Dana, in general you really DON'T irritate me. I like you quite a bit. I kind of overreacted when I posted, but I know a lot of people like what you described as you wanting for your daughter that WERE spanked. I'm not saying, nor would I ever say, that someone needs to spank to acheive that in their child. Maybe those people are that way in spite of the fact that they were spanked... or maybe spanking helped shape that.... or maybe spanking had absolutely nothing to do w/ how they turned out either way.

I'm not a strong advocate for spanking, but because of various things I've witnessed throughout my life and various people I know.... I refuse to villanize spanking. I USED to... before I had kids. Then after some more experiences I realized there is a huge difference between spanking and abuse. Abuse deserves all the villianification in the world... spanking does not. And yes, I do realize that for many people spanking automatically equals abuse cuz I used to feel that way too.

Tammy - posted on 06/27/2011

If you do decide to spank your child, PLEASE make sure that you are not angry when you do it! I still remember the spankings I got as a child and how much they hurt me physically and emotionally because my Mom or Dad were angry at the time and took their aggression out on me because of something bad I did. It was borderline child abuse.

TealRose - posted on 06/27/2011

Casey - Toddler throwing 'temper tantrums' in the store. Hmm.. do you know for sure, that that child isn't autistic, or has other problems? Isn't hungry, wet, tired, or even bored stupid because it's idiot parents have had it all over town for hours ?? And do you know anything about why a toddler HAS tantrums?? Not because they are 'badly behaved' but because they can't communicate clearly. They can't understand everything either.

I don't care whether spanking is the only discipline, only used once or twice, or somewhere in between. It IS hitting. It does hurt - mentally, emotionally. It doesn't teach anything good ..

Amber - posted on 06/27/2011

I was not referring to spanking when making a statement about punishment and discipline being different. I was specifically referring to the fact that some moms said that they don't punish, and you took that to mean that they have out of control children without discipline.

I was spanked once or twice by my mother and I still respect her. I abused by my father, who I most certainly do not respect. I've got a good grasp on what is what and am not confusing the two. My mom still thinks spanking is okay, I don't. That's my opinion.

So, once again, your assumptions are wrong. There is no lack of understanding on this end.

Johnny - posted on 06/27/2011

It is also important to recognize that there is rule-abiding good behaviour that is a result simply of the fear of punishment and then there is rule-abiding good behaviour that is a result of being able to recognized the benefits of making the right choices, both to others and to self. Many parents who choose to raise their children to "to think freely and explore their own world and identity" are looking to instill the latter. Learning that negative consequences can be a result of the wrong choices or bad behaviour can be very powerful in the long run. A child does not just have to wish to avoid physical discipline in order to learn to behave well. It could be argued that given that spanking is not commonly a consequence of poor behaviour when you get older, that learning that choices have other negative consequences could be a more long-lasting and valuable lesson.

Johnny - posted on 06/27/2011

Spanking is hitting. It may be done in a controlled manner, in a controlled setting with specific goals in mind and set rules about its use. But you are still hitting another person. No amount of semantics can change that fact. Unless of course you've come up with some sort of new fangled spanking technique that does not require you to use your hand to strike a child in any way.

You may believe that it is necessary to spank in some circumstances to get proper results in a child. Having worked with kids for years, as both a trained childcare worker and later as a trained social worker, I can tell you that it is very possible to teach both respect, self-discipline, and good behaviour without ever striking a child in any way, including a controlled spank.

I know many adults who are very successful, disciplined people who were not spanked as children, including my husband's entire family & extended family. No one in his entire family has ever utilized corporal punishment or discipline because it is against their religious beliefs. My husband is a nuclear physicist, his brother is a construction contractor, and his sister is an accountant, his niece is a lawyer, his cousin is a chiropractor....and not a criminal record or even an incident among them. They are well-respected in their community and known as people you can turn to and rely on. Not exactly like the wild people you assert will result from non-corporal discipline.

Do I think that all spanking is abuse? No. Not at all actually. I was spanked 2 or 3 times as a child and luckily I do not have issues with my parents as a result. Nor do I think it was necessary and they have actually both said that in hindsight, neither do they. You can choose to spank if you wish, but it is still hitting. I think that the "lack of understanding" is yours.

Casey - posted on 06/27/2011

By responses, I see that I was correct in using the term "lack of understanding". Spanking and hitting are not the same. Spanking and smacking are not the same. Parents who use corporal punishment to induce fear, pain, physiological or psychological damage are not using it as a tool of discipline, but of abuse. Spanking, when used according to it's original purpose and plan, IS discipline, not punishment. Those who use it as a tool to induce fear/pain are not the parents who choose to spank that I am referring to. I am speaking of those who use it within a system of learning that includes many tools of discipline. I never stated that spanking is the only tool of discipline, as a few of you have inferred. However, I have found in much of my work, that parents who shun spanking many times (not in all instances) shun most if not all forms of discipline, and then refer to it as "allowing their child to think freely and explore their own world and identity". I encourage exploration. I encourage learning and self discovery. I encourage free thought. What I do not encourage is disrespect when expressing those thoughts; misbehaviour because of a lack of structure or knowledge that there are no consequences of said misbehaviour (you've all seen them...the parents whose children are running around in the market knocking things and people about, the toddler throwing a kicking/screaming fit in the middle of the floor of a public place while the parents ignore it, etc.) These are things brought about by a lack of discipline in any form. That being said: My heart goes out to those of you who experienced an abusive home that has led to a correlation between spanking and that abuse, or those of you that have assumed that spanking is thought of as a proper or helpful way to respond to any infraction.

Chatty - posted on 06/27/2011

No, I made a comment about spanking not being conducive with my goal of raising an independent, compassionate, free thinking adult. I think I just irritate Teresa, but meh, what can I do?!

Jenni - posted on 06/27/2011

I said that "I see spanking as being an inhibitor for raising leaders." not that all parent's who spank won't be raising leaders but I just see it as inhibitory. I think Teresa just confused one of my comments for one of yours? She probably meant me.

Chatty - posted on 06/27/2011

Teresa, I never told you your kids weren't going to be any of those things. I was talking about MY experience and MY kid.

Jenni - posted on 06/27/2011

I was going to reply to Casey's post but I think everyone covered it pretty well.

Just because parents don't spank doesn't mean they aren't disciplining, my children are very disciplined and respectful.

Free-thinking does not mean I'm letting my children run around like wild children raised by wolves. I apply consequences for their actions. I do not respond to disrespect and voices go unheard if not used in the right tone or with manners.

Spanking does not equal discipline.

Spanking equals punishment. Which can be a tool of discipline. A tool in the belt. The only difference between parents that spank and myself is that it's just one less tool I have in my belt.

TealRose - posted on 06/27/2011

Really? BS ?? So it doesn't matter that my parents lost my love, respect and trust ?? Doesn't matter that I felt that they lied to me about 'we don't hit' - especially when I never hit people! That I was fearful, because they were SO much bigger than me, and hurt me - those who were supposed to love and protect me? It doesn't matter that now, at 56 I STILL feel disrespected, unloved, not good enough and HURT to my soul ?? The trouble is when you smack a child - you have NO way of knowing just how it is affecting them deep down inside ... If you don't spank - like you don't spank friends, colleagues, subordinates or your dog, then ... they won't feel this way ..

Teresa - posted on 06/27/2011

I have independent, free thinking, resilient, compassionate 9 year olds (well... as much of those things as 9 year olds CAN be), Dana.... and they were 'gasp' spanked. Granted, they aren't adults yet, but they also aren't spanked anymore...



I don't care if you spank or not, but when your child is only 2.... don't tell me how my kids are or aren't going to be JUST because they were spanked cuz that's a load of bs.

Tara - posted on 06/27/2011

Casey,
You are assuming that people who do not spank or use physical punishment are raising their children without boundaries or limitations.
This is not true.
Children can learn to self regulate, they can learn to limit themselves, they can learn to set boundaries for themselves and respect the boundaries of others and society as a whole. They can learn all of these things without the need to be physically hurt.
People who believe that children can only learn to be respectful or obedient through the use of physical force are underestimating their children and their own parenting abilities.
They are taking the easier way out of a situation that can be resolved without physical pain.
To me, when you say never spank in anger etc. you are justifying the use of physical punishment as a means to an end.
This doesn't happen.
Just because something appears to work does not make it right or moral to do.
Children are people, they are our most vulnerable and innocent citizens.
Again I ask.
Hit your dog? No.
Smack your Grandma around? No.
Pop your developmentally delayed 20 year old child? Nope.
Slap your spouse? No.
Pinch your co-worker? No.

So if smacking etc. is not acceptable ANY WHERE else in society, how is smacking at home teaching them to "get on" in the world???
I just don't get it.
Oops my toddler just dumped his cup of juice on the floor, I'm going to go over and have him help me clean up the mess he made and show him that he puts his cup on the table when he's done. Or I could just smack him and tell him "NO". gotta go be a parent now..

TealRose - posted on 06/27/2011

I agree totally Amber .. there is no need to spank/hit a child to 'get things across'. Either they are too young and don't understand anyway and are using age related behaviour which is completely normal, or they are older and can be talked to, demonstrated to taught. I wanted to have my children show respect to others - which is WHY I didn't spank them - because spanking is NOT respectful of the child. As a parent you are there to teach and help raise them into adults - not to instil fear, or hurt, or humiliate, or depress or generally treat lower than you would be allowed to treat an animal.

If you want respect from anyone adult or child - you have to SHOW it and give it first .. it doesn't come automatically, you have to earn it. It's a two way thing.

Amber - posted on 06/27/2011

You can have a free thinking child who is also well disciplined. The two things don't mean the same thing.
My son is disciplined. He knows that there are things he is not allowed to do and that I will not accept it. I don't have to hit him to get that across.

I'm really tired of people thinking that it a child is left to think for themselves and make decisions that they aren't disciplined. I also find the concept that the choice is from "fear or lack of understanding" a bit silly.

I know many adults who were raised free thinking and who weren't spanked. They are college graduates who hold management positions, own prosperous businesses, are lawyers or finishing law school, or are doctors. They obviously grasp how to work within societies' laws and expectations.

Discipline and punishment are two different things to many people.

Casey - posted on 06/27/2011

It's interesting to see so many who equate spanking with abuse, when they are not remotely the same, nor in the same league. I came from a home where spankings were administered, and it was never used as a tool to control, or to "inhibit" (foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him). Because of my parents' willingness to discipline, my siblings and I grew into intelligent, well-adjusted, independent people, who today make a difference in our communities through work with and in law enforcement, work with true victims of violence, and in our schools. Spanking is not a tool to inhibit, but to teach, to correct; and should come only from a place of love. Never spank out of anger. That being said, a child who is not disciplined does not learn to respect himself or others, and grows to hate those who did not love him enough to discipline (i.e.: parents or those who raised him). Having dealt extensively with children of all ages and backgrounds, I can state with authority the difference between children who are allowed free reign (so that they can be "free thinking") and those who are taught right from wrong through discipline. If children were supposed to just develop freely and have no guidelines/rules/standards, they would not have been given parents. Spanking is not for every occurrence, not for every age, especially when a child is old enough to understand reasoning and logic. However, in instances of outright defiant disobedience, disrespect, and dishonesty; there is no reason a spanking should be avoided out of a parents' fear or lack of understanding. If our children are not taught this respect for others and for those in authority (i.e.: bosses, law enforcement, teachers, etc), they have a tendency to lean toward selfishness in everything they do, up to and including illegal acts that can very well determine a negative path for the rest of their lives. If you wish to raise people who will change the world, teach them first how to survive and prosper in the one they live in, and how to use legal and proper channels to affect change. Think of it this way: Are you more inclined to listen to the viewpoint of someone who is well spoken and respectful or someone who screams their perspective with foul language and stupidity? Do you want yourself and your children to be shown respect by others, or do you expect them to expect disrespect under a guise of "free thinking" people? Children learn what they live. If they live in a world where they have no boundaries for behaviour or speech, then they cannot function in the outside world where we are governed by laws with regard to behaviour and speech.

Jenni - posted on 06/27/2011

Sorry Robyn, my fault. I just added the disclaimer so there's no further confusion.

Robyn - posted on 06/27/2011

Yes, I definitely did. Didn't see the disclaimer listed before.

Chatty - posted on 06/27/2011

Yep, Johnny definitely nailed that one. Non-spankers want to raise independent, resilient, free thinking, compassionate adults. Spanking will not accomplish that. Spanking might not cause irreversible damage, but it's certainly not conducive with my goals.

Jenni - posted on 06/27/2011

Robyn, I didn't ask the question for myself. lol I don't spank my children. The question was based on a thread I was involved in where a mother was spanking her 13 month old for disobedience. I am a positive discipline parent. So yes, I completely understood what Johnny was saying, I think you misunderstood the premise of this thread and my stance on it.