What to believe or not to believe!

Jenni - posted on 03/31/2011

Davina, I am sorry you were made to feel attacked. It is a hard pill to swallow when you're new to this group and become the underdog in a debate. I assure you that none of us here personally dislike you! I think the ones who have been here a long time have developed a thick skin and sometimes we need to take into consideration that newer members have yet to develop that.



I am also sorry your thread was derailled but that often happens on here especially in religious debates. Emotions are higher and debates get heated. We all go off on tangents and these threads typically take on a life of their own. It is hard to seperate attacking the argument and attacking the person and sometimes those lines can become blurred. It is hard to tell the difference at times. I'm pretty sure all of us have at one time been an underdog in a debate and have felt 'attacked'. It's best to take it with a grain of salt and move on. If you have personally attacked or offended someone it's best to recant, apologize and move forward.



I would like you to understand that we all would like you to stay and continue participating in our debates but not at the cost where it is causing you more harm than good.



Edit to add: Hey where'd your post go?

Jodi - posted on 03/31/2011

Jenn, yes, you are absolutely correct......I was just concerned with the tie-in with atheists. That's why I wanted to clarify and wasn't making any accusations.

Jenn - posted on 03/31/2011

Well, in Davina's defense regarding the good people/bad people quote - wouldn't it be fair to say that ALL people do bad things sometimes?

Krista - posted on 03/30/2011

And to say that I tried to convert anyone is fucked up Krista! You are so quick to jump to that and the truth of the matter is I never tried to convert anyone!

Very well. It appears that we did misinterpret your intent. That happens. So why could you not have just calmly clarified that, instead of flying off the handle and insulting the living heck out of everybody?

Jenni - posted on 03/30/2011

I more wrote that response for Davina... I didn't want to be lumped into a group where my posts would lose their convinction.

I found a lot of what was said by Davina offensive as well. I didn't want my posts to be read as hypocricy.... that's all. I know that wasn't your intention but it may be viewed that way if I don't defend myself.

Vegemite - posted on 03/30/2011

That's how I read that statement too Jodi

Jodi - posted on 03/30/2011

Quoting Davina
" I never said all Atheist are bad people, I know that good people do bad things and sometimes bad people do good things."

I really feel the need to address this statement. Could you please clarify exactly what is meant by it? I read it as atheists are all either good people who do bad things or bad people who do good things........I really hope I am wrong in that interpretation.

Emily - posted on 03/30/2011

Jennifer - The people indicating that Christians were lacking intellect were doing so in a different thread... I just recognized some of the names as being the same ones taking Davina to task for essentially the same thing. I read your original responses... I saw nothing at all wrong with them (not that you care what I think of them anyway).

I'm not one of those people to ever shove religion down anyone's throat or call them stupid for not believing. The God I believe in gave everyone free will. It is your choice to believe or to not believe whatever. If you choose no God, or some other god - I can't say "it's all the same", but it's what you wanted to choose. We all believe there is a right or wrong answer to just about anything. We choose what we believe is right. We cannot choose for others. And telling them they're stupid for making their choice would just cause them to hate you and see your choice as the "wrong" one. (I'm not saying you've done this... it's just a general statement.)

Vegemite - posted on 03/30/2011

I didn't just blame the bad of the world on the devil. The bible explains how with sin it allows the devil to make use of it. Sin is committed with humans own free will. The bible also explains that God allows things that we may see as bad to happen for our good. Maybe in todays world it would be something like running late for work and getting your pay docked when if you were on time you'd have been in a bad accident. I know a small thing but that would give you a bad day then maybe you wouldn't be able to afford something you wanted and so perceived as bad.



I'm sorry but i have to pick Davina up, your language and tone is atrocious and contains not an ounce of Christ it makes me cringe.

Romans 12:14

Mathew 15:17

James 3: 9



"May my God at some point Today make his apperance in you and let your light shine which ever direction leads it to him!"

This is fine to think, of course it would be nice for everyone to be Christians but you don't say it. That is for God to worry about, salvation is between the individual and God it is His job and he can do it better than we can. When we do more than tell about God and Christ the message becomes offensive.

Philippians 2:11-13 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jenni - posted on 03/30/2011

Emily, just to be clear and not confuse Davina... I am an atheist who has no issue with the faithful wanting to spread their faith. If I am not interested, I will simply say: "No thank you, I have my own beliefs". I do find it... mildly insulting... when I receive more comments after that implying I must be ignorant to be a non-believer.



I personally, never imply the religious are ignorant and treat their beliefs with the same respect I expect for mine. I may argue their logic in a debate but that is not calling them ignorant. I treat a religious debate no differently than I would treat any other debate.



Case and point... my original posts to the OP.

Emily - posted on 03/30/2011

Davina - It helps to remember that Christianity is not the same thing as "religion". You can follow God, follow His Son Christ... and STILL not have an official "religion" per se, in the eyes of the world. You'd be a Christian, but you might not fit into anyone else's "box". You can be a Christian, following God, His Son, the Bible, and all it contains, and STILL get rejected and even kicked out of churches of EVERY denomination. Man has corrupted religion. Some of it was corrupted before Christ - hence the need for Christ, some of it was corrupted after, a lot of which we still see today. Every denomination has some truth. Not one has all of it though. Once men start following men, they stop following God.

We can follow God without following a church. It may be the best way. Remember that the church is not a building, but the people. When you speak to other believers about God, you're in Church. :)

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have, not that you'll have any. But I can promise you, that while my answers will follow God, Christ, AND the entire Bible... they will not fit entirely with any church in existence.

Emily - posted on 03/30/2011

I find it humorous that on this thread the Christian is being taken to task for supposedly saying, "You poor deluded idiot atheists, maybe one day you'll come to your senses and believe"... and on another thread in the same "community" there are the same atheists telling the Christians that faith = poorly developed intellect.



Just saying. Tolerance and Respect are two way streets.

Jenni - posted on 03/30/2011

Maybe a better idea is; if you feel what you say may seriously offend people it's best not to write it. We are on a debating board, have no illusion that your posts will be up for extreme scuritiny. I doubt most of us are really all that offended by your opinion but when you write such comments as the porn/crack one. You make our job easy. That is all. We'll all get over it.



And actually an atheist is someone who denies the existance of a God. So yes, being a non-believer is an atheist.

Johnny - posted on 03/30/2011

No one has personally attacked you. They have challenged your statements here. There is an enormous difference. If people are jumping to conclusions about what you are saying, then clarify. And every post is not always necessarily in direct response to your posts or your original posts. Sometimes people are off on their own tangents or responding to something someone else has said. If you feel someone is saying something that isn't meshing with what's going on, ask them for clarification. If you come at everyone with guns blazing, you've got to expect a heated response.

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

People need to stop jumping to conclusions! I do expect to be challanged just not attacked!

Johnny - posted on 03/30/2011

In 'Debating Mums' you really need to expect that if and when people take issue with your comments or opinions, they are going to respond. No one is going to just ignore an opposing viewpoint, that is the nature of this forum. If you want to enjoy this place and the "scrum" you will simply have to adapt. If you do not like having your beliefs and opinions challenged, this is likely the wrong place for you to post them. If you feel that you are being misunderstood or that your words are being twisted, attempt to explain or clarify, don't just get angry at the people who are not getting your points.

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

And to say that I tried to convert anyone is fucked up Krista! You are so quick to jump to that and the truth of the matter is I never tried to convert anyone! I never said all Atheist are bad people, I know that good people do bad things and sometimes bad people do good things. That is just human nature. I honestly feel if you don't like what I write then you shouldn't read it and that makes many people upset not just you. Again sorry to all the Athiest if I offended you but being a "non-believer' doesn't mean your an Athiest! Peace!

Johnny - posted on 03/30/2011

And what we are trying to explain is that we've heard all about your god already. We'd have to be living under a freaking rock not to have. We're not interested and we're tired of constantly being told that he's right for us. You don't see us telling you to give him up, that would be rude. Especially if we told you that being a believer made you responsible for crack houses and prostitution. You'd probably be rather pissed about it.

I think what some of the other believers here may be trying to suggest to you is that you focus on your own relationship with god and stop bothering other people about theirs. You could learn a lot from some of these ladies.

Krista - posted on 03/30/2011

Right, I get that. I get that you feel that your faith compels you to "spread the good word".

I, and the others, were just trying to explain why we (and others) aren't receptive to it, and why we actually find it kind of insulting when people try to convert us.

And sorry, Davina, but to write something as offensive as to imply that the "message" of non-believers is crack and porn, and then to say, "If you don't like it, don't read it"...that's kind of a cop-out. And if that IS your true opinion, then may I suggest that you consider spending a bit more time getting to know some real, live agnostics and atheists, so that you can see that we're moral, good, kind people. We just believe in one fewer god than you do. That's all.

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

Well Krista,
I do offer my god to people whom might not know him and that is my personal duty to my God! I didn't continue to push my God on them or you for that matter. As far as the whole "crack house on the corner" thing I feel if you don't like what I say then don't read it. I am sorry if I have offended any of you but we are all intitled to our own opnions. I don't necessarly believe that all drug addicts are "non-believers" I was just tryin to make a point. Guess it didn't come across very nicely and probably really pissed off alot of you but that wasn't my intention at all!

Jenny - posted on 03/30/2011

Great post Tara! That could start it's own new topic.

Krista - posted on 03/30/2011

Davina, seriously. Calm down.

Nobody is twisting your words. When you said this: "May my God at some point Today make his apperance in you and let your light shine which ever direction leads it to him!" MULTIPLE people here knew that you meant well. We all acknowledged that.

We were not twisting your words. We were simply explaining how your words might be taken, by someone who does not believe and has no interest in believing. There was no twisting of words, there was just an effort to get you to understand where we might be coming from on this.

But unfortunately, you seem to have taken serious umbrage to what we said, which then led you to make that nasty comment about our "message" being crack and porn, and it all kind of flew to hell from there, didn't it?

Sara - posted on 03/30/2011

That was awesome, Tara!

You know, it upsets me when people use Satan to explain away bad behavior, because it takes out any personal responsibility. YOU make choices, and sometimes those choices have negative consequences. Satan didn't make you do it, God didn't make you do it...YOU did it. I just think it's a cop out, to be perfectly honest. And it discourages any kind of critical thinking to try and understand why people make bad choices and why things happen in our society so rampantly that are so awful.

Jodi - posted on 03/30/2011

I was just wondering how the heck she came up with something like that at this time of night......and then realised she would be bright eyed and bushy tailed, it is only me who should be getting sleep because it's only night here.....:P

Jenni - posted on 03/30/2011

Wow Tara, so inciteful! That almost brought a tear to my eye it was so dead on. I wanted to click 'helpful' 20 times.

Tara - posted on 03/30/2011

Bad things happen because of free will. Because of choices people make, for themselves and for their world.
Bad things happen because people lose sight of their own self worth.

True suffering happens when people need things to be different, need things to be better.

Much of the suffering in societies the world over is due to a lack or a threat of losing their basic human needs to survive.

When faced with an inability to feed, clothe and care for yourself and your family, illness of the mind, body and spirit take hold.
In cultures where getting ahead ie: a better job, a higher income, a nicer house, a better car, a better education for your kids etc. drives your existence, you slowly become disenchanted.
When "not having enough" seeps through generations it changes how your brain chemistry works. It changes how you see the world, how you view relationships with others.
This is intentional, this is based on solid research of the human condition. When people are kept in a state of fear, a state of flux if you will, they are less likely to vote, less likely to feel they have a voice and more likely to turn to away from society.

And when people are suffering and in pain they become irrational and illogical, sometimes to the extremes.
In cultures where the monetary and class system does not exist, where everyone truly must work for and with each other or none will survive, the rates of "sinful" or abhorrent behaviour are very very rare. Working together to survive is a natural part of being human. It brings health and balance to a community, it instills a deep sense of security thereby allowing for each individuals talents and skills to be honoured not coveted.
There is no jealousy or need to have what your neighbour has. You are not poor they are not rich.

Whereas if you go to church and sit beside your neighbour, perhaps he is very wealthy, he drives a nice car and seems to have it all. You are a labourer, you work long days to provide for your wife and children. Your home is modest but needs some repair and your car is old. You both go to the same church, you both pray to the same god, you both tithe part of your income into the collection plate. But at the end of the day he goes home to his life and you go home to yours.


It is the system of power and control, of capitalism and consumerism. And the divide between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.
With a divide of the classes there will be discontent, there always has been. And religion has always been used to quiet discontent.
It is being done now, all the time, all over the US.
If I were a Christian I would want the phrase "In God we Trust" banned from use by the US government. It's false advertising.
Anyhow, Davina, end of times?
Well if you believe the Mayan prophecies than the end of the world will happen on my 39th birthday. Nice when to go out!
I personally think all of the end of times scenarios are just something the propaganda machines have latched onto as a way to divert the often easily "Divertable" attention of the typical American viewer. Divert it away from all the death and destruction taking place, all the raping of the earth, the killing of innocents, the fouling of rivers and waterways. The mass extinction of species...

The list goes on and on.... and if anyone is looking for God or or some other Deity to say "Why are you doing this to us?" just find a mirror, look closely and you will see your answer.
We are causing our end of times.
Period.

Jenn - posted on 03/30/2011

I'm a Christian and I don't blame bad shit on Satan - I blame people, and mother nature - it just is what it is. I don't believe that God is like some puppet master holding all of the strings - there is no "plan".

Jodi - posted on 03/30/2011

"There are many reasons why bad things happen and if christians believe things happen because of Satan or God then what do "non believers" blame the bad in the world on!?! This should be interesting!!!! "

Shit happens.......

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

I never asked anyone to believe in something they didn't!!! I would not do that because I don't want someone to do that to me. See it this simple believe in who you chose and go for it! That all I sayin so for those of you making it like I someone tryin to change your beliefs. is be who you want cause it really makes no shit to me if you believe or not! I was wanting to know how people feel about the end of days not what they think about me cause I wasn't put on earth to please you all!!!!

April - posted on 03/30/2011

Davina, i understand that your angry because maybe you feel attacked but you really can't expect those who don't believe to believe. It's there option. Don't let that get the best of you. Remember that love is better than anger. God wants you to spread his word but in your actions and not just your words. I admire that you love Him so much. So lets leave it at that. I'm sure your a great person, don't let this get you down. Lets spread happiness :D God bless.

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

Ok people! I didn't lose shit Ms. Cook! You blame the devil for the worlds problems insted of the lack of parenting or structure! There are many reasons why bad things happen and if christians believe things happen because of Satan or God then what do "non believers" blame the bad in the world on!?! This should be interesting!!!!

America3437 - posted on 03/30/2011

Again I'm not pushing my religon on you Johnny or anyone else for that matter and don't appericate the words that people put in my mouth! I say one thing and it's like we're back in high school with our insecurities! Stop twisting my words to mean whatyou want them to ,just to make yourselves feel better about your choices in life and turning your anger on me! I'll say it again....Believe or not is up to you no matter where your belief(or non belief) lies! peace people it's a new day!!!!

Vegemite - posted on 03/29/2011

Tara as a "non-believer" you are not responsible for the ills of society. As a Christian i believe the bad of society happens because 1. Sin or as you said in the last paragraph of your post. 2. Because of sin the devil has hold on the world. 3.Things that God has allowed to happen that we have perceived as bad, like a child might perceive going the the dentist or doctor as bad but it is really for their good.

No group of people or people who don't believe in the Christian God are to be held responsible for the bad in this world.



I do love Joyce Meyer



Thank you April, I like what you said.



I have one thing for Davina. You started out well in the OP then lost your tongue.

Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.



James 1:19 Understand this, my dear brothers and sisters! Let every person be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger. 20 For human anger does not accomplish God’s righteousness. . . 26 If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile.



I think I'll run away and hide now. :) Love, Peace and Marigolds

April - posted on 03/29/2011

LOL Thanks Johnny :D maybe i should?? haha

Kathy - posted on 03/29/2011

My "religion:"

*Come on people now
smile on your brother
everybody get together
try to love one another right now

The Youngbloods, 1967

Johnny - posted on 03/29/2011

To me, you just nailed it April. I am not religious, I am an agnostic. But what you just wrote was beautifully said, gave me a better understanding of you and your thinking, made me think about my own preconceived ideas, but in no way made me feel like you were telling me how I should think.

You should teach a class on this ;-)

April - posted on 03/29/2011

I believe but only because i have seen what God can do. He has helped my family so much. I know all the non-believers will say that that is just coincidence and thats just how it worked out but for me it was different. My faith is strong even if i don't go to church. I don't need too. God can hear me no matter where i am.

I've read the bible. I understand it. Man wrote that bible, not God. Man could have made mistakes, put in their own thoughts. Times have changed, not everything in there applies for today. The point is to be kind to others, to love yourself and those around you, to love God and to do right by him. Don't do anything that is deemed wrong. (murder, theft, adultery etc) The obvious. That's my spin on things.

I have no problem with gay people, i think God loves all of his children. No matter what. He's sad when we do wrong but He forgives us if we ask to be forgiven.

Christianity is not a bad religion, there are just some extremes who take it to far. Religion is about love. Even if you read every religions "bible" you will see so much similarities, i wouldn't be surprised if we all believed in the same things but just called them different names.

People don't have to believe, if they think this is all "wizardry" that is fine too. Just please don't make it seem as if those of us who believe are crazy. You'll come to find some christians aren't as bad (or annoying) as you think, we just love God, nothing wrong with that. I won't shove it down your throat, promise. :)

Casey - posted on 03/29/2011

We're not an overly religious family we both believe in God but we don't attend church or anything like that, we plan on teaching our child the very basics about god and jesus but because we both don't feel that we know enough of the details we are just going to keep it simple and later on in life when our children are older if they want to further their knowlege on religion then we will support them with that.
I think it's important to believe in something weather it's God or something different but I think you also need to be open minded about it all and I also think you need to let children make decisions for themselves rather then force something down their throats just because thats what you believe in after all as parents we're there to guide our children not control them.

Tara - posted on 03/29/2011

I really don't see how me not believing in a specific god or deity makes me responsible for what are essentially the ills of a society that has been controlled by money and power, which incidentally has in many proven cases spread deeply into the realm of organized religion.

Case in point:
The Vatican, the wealth, the power, the influence over millions of people. The investments, the shares in corporate entities, the secrecy, the indoctrination, the dogma.
TV Gospel type Evangelical Christians:
The wealth, the power, the influence over the masses, the money, the investments, the vacations, the mistresses, the gay sex scandals, the hummers, the yachts, the jet planes.

When I look at organized religion I see HUGE hypocrisies in almost all of them.
I see a twisting of what essentially could be a wonderful message of peace.

I believe in the virtues of being a good person, I teach my children these virtues so they will grow up to be good people.

I trust in my ability teach them the virtues of trust, honour, respect, citizenship, loyalty, patience, kindness, generosity etc. etc. and I don't feel I need a specific guideline directed by and written by what comes down to several groups of powerful men with power in mind, power and control over the masses.

Religion has always been used as mind control.
If people can take the messages and leave the dogma and the fear mongering behind the world would be a much more "spiritual" place.

Prostitution and drugs etc, are symptoms not of a non believing society, but of a society that has no basis for self awareness, has no moral compass based on their own experiences and knowledge.

Krista - posted on 03/29/2011

all you non believers are pursercuting me for having said believe or not believe is your choice!



Okay. I'm going to explain things simply here, because you seem to be missing why people are upset with you.



We are not persecuting you.



We are not angry with you for having said it's our choice whether or not to believe.



We are angry with you, because you said THIS:



"The non believers push their "non belief" on us daily with pornographic images on tv or the crack house on the corner so what wrong with believers tryin to spread our message when we are faced daily with yours?"



You stated that non-believers' message is that of pornography and drugs. That was very, very, very judgmental and insulting.



THAT is why people are angry with you.



You're not being persecuted.



People are just calling you out for saying something very rude, insulting and untrue.

Johnny - posted on 03/29/2011

I agree, it started out so positive... :-(

Jenni - posted on 03/29/2011

This started with a very geniune, very encouraging question. But the crackhead/porn comment threw me through a loop. Made me do a scooby do impression: RRRrrrwhatsthatshaggy?

Jodi - posted on 03/29/2011

Wow......

It seems the OP is not only pissing off the non-believers, but is also insulting the believers. That takes a pretty special person to argue with those on both sides of the debate :P

Johnny - posted on 03/29/2011

I am not religious either. I do strongly support anyone's right to a personal faith. And I am interested to listen and learn if someone tells me what they believe. There is nothing at all wrong with sharing those sort of things, it helps us learn and to understand ourselves better.

That being said, nothing pisses me off more than proselytizing. I couldn't give a fuck if your religion tells you that you have to bend my ear off. In my personal experience, some religious people seem to feel that they have the right to tell me what the right beliefs are, but they get offended when I strip naked, stick my fingers, in my ears and start singing "This is the song that never ends....."

America3437 - posted on 03/29/2011

Let freedom ring!

Teresa - posted on 03/29/2011

I'm going to edit my above post and replace the word 'preach' w/ 'speak' since apparently 'preach' is seen as an offensive word to everyone else on this post. ;)

Lindsay - posted on 03/29/2011

*****MOD Warning*****

Enough with the flaming and bashing. Let's try to continue this debate without slamming down each other. This includes both sides.

Lindsay DM Mod

Teresa - posted on 03/29/2011

Davina, speak the Truth... yes, I agree w/ that, but I think you missed the point.... speak the Truth w/ LOVE.... and if necessary, use words. Your words here (at least up through page 2.. all I've read so far) are NOT helping your cause, but hurting it and helping to show all the nonbelievers one of the reasons they DON'T believe. Just one of them guys, so don't think I'm saying that comments like Davina's are the only reason you don't believe. I know better.

America3437 - posted on 03/29/2011

me three jen and all you non believers are pursercuting me for having said believe or not believe is your choice! Believe in what ever you believe in or dont' believe in anything it up to you that all I was saying so those of you who feel the need to belittle my belief or non belief obviously have nothing better to do with your time! Thanks for allowing me to occupy your precious time I feel special! Oh and by the way the prision system is full of believers!!!

Rosie - posted on 03/29/2011

I was liking your post until it turned into lunatic talk. really? non believers = porn and crack? have you looked into the prison system lately dear? less than 1% of the prison population is non religous. interesting how all that crack doing and porn making is equated with atheists though...