white lies (santa, easter bunny tooth fairy and other evils)

Krista - posted on 04/25/2011

@Noreen: You do realize that it's very possible that they'll question that ANYWAY, right?

I mean heck, if you're going to look at it that way, then you've basically cut yourself off from telling them ANY fibs whatsoever, because of your reasoning that they'll find out about one fib, and automatically mistrust anything and everything else you've ever told them.

Noreen - posted on 04/25/2011

My children know that Santa, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy are pretend. Our reasoning for not "lieing" to them is because if I told them that Santa, Easter Bunny, and Jesus where all real, even if you don't see them, then when they are older, they are going to find out that Santa and Bunny aren't real, what if they question if Jesus is real too?? We focus the holiday's around the true meaning of the holiday, Jesus. On Christmas Eve we read the Birth Story of Jesus and talk about his birth using a child's nativity set. We talk about the story of the 3 wise men each leaving a gift for Jesus. In the morning when they wake up, they have 3 presents each under the tree that where not their the night before. On Easter we talk they wake up a few gifts in their baskets (this year I couldn't find them thanks to moving from SC-CA so their gifts where on the table). After playing with their gifts, we went to church, and talked about church on our way home and then prepared for our Easter dinner. After everyone left and before bed, we read Jesus's death story using Ressurection Eggs. They still get the joy of the other children with getting gifts and pretending Santa and Easter Bunny came. But they know that the real meaning behind this is for HIM.

I promise I am not a crazy Christian or anything. I have no judgement for other parents who choose to do differently with their children. This is just my reasoning. :)

Krista - posted on 04/25/2011

Jen Kowalto, I like the cut of your jib, lady.

Jen - posted on 04/25/2011

Just to add to what Krista said, Lee Strobel is hardly a resource considering the terribly shoddy way he went about his first book. I read it and was amazed that for a journalist, he just took what he was told about Christianity for granted and never asked even the most basic of "prove it" questions that my 14 year old asks.

He's a salesman. So I would put it to our little Easter Poster - have you read any rebuttal to Strobel's work? There's a great on on infidel.org.

Jen - posted on 04/25/2011

'there are also excellent biblical stories and lessons from the bible that are great! "

You mean like the story of the Midianite infants in Numbers 31?

Jen - posted on 04/25/2011

"i would like you to refrain from calling us people animals. this is blasphemy."

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Kate CP - posted on 04/25/2011

Toni - posted on 04/25/2011

Wow how does a debate about Santa et al turn into a let's turn all athiests into Christians debarcle? I like the idea of leaving kids to decide what they want to believe in, so if they choose to believe in Santa we can go with it but if not we don't, that sounds like the best route to go. I have to say as a Christian that imo the Bible for the most part is intended as a fictional book NOT a textbook of what we should do in our lives - I know I won't stone anyone if they sin...Also I have to question anyone who doesn't know what the Vatican is - that has got to be a bad joke!

Connie - posted on 04/25/2011

Yes Virginia we have a Santa Claus--can't see God but we know He exists. For my kids and Grandkids--They ALL exist!

~Jennifer - posted on 04/25/2011

.....wow....next thing you'll tell me is that the flying spaghetti monster isn't real, and snakes can talk.
=/

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/25/2011

""there are people, like Teresa on here, who make me wish I could believe so much it hurts, then those like Danielle who kind of make me thankful that I'm not able to wrap my mind around it""
I think that's a pretty good reason that Christians should strive to live more like Teresa and less like Danielle. It just does no good to be so forceful. Women don't like things being shoved down their throats. (matt laughs over my shoulder at this 'sex reference' :) men *shakes head*

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/25/2011

Krista you are awesome :) love your burning building analogy. Too true! Haha chickens with their heads cut off. Paints a funny picture but yet its so true!

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/25/2011

Wow! Ok way back on like page 3 I'm going to answer Donnas question to me :)
It was the 'just let them believe what they come around to believe'
Eric is only 2 so, for now he can't comprehend much imagination stuff, but yesterday at Easter his uncle Rick announced, 'ok kids stay in the living room cuz imm going outside to hide your eggs!' so I'm guessing there isn't a shot Eric will think eggs came from anyone but uncle rick :P
As for tags on Christmas gifts, I don't think we will name mom and dad or anything on gifts, just out the kids name. So idk, he could think Santa brought them, but since we don't have books about Santa, or decorations with Santa, and I'm not interested in having his picture taken with sant! I honestly don't think he will get into the state of mind thinking about Santa! We are going to be homeschooling so he won't be around the school environment to have lots of kids talking about Santa, also he won't be able to wreck it for other kids easily! We are a Christian family so of course our focus on the holidays is Jesus, and Eric will know the reasons we celebrate, but it's not to take out the fun and excitement of the holidays.
So for the characters in tv, movies, books, etc that are fictional. I guess I think it's an easy thing to just say yes it's imagination. I wouldn't want Eric thinking superman was real any more then thinking cruella deVil is real! I think imagination and pretend is a very important part of our lives, child and adult and it's never good to pretend like imagination doesn't exist! But I do like clear boundaries between reality and imagination.

Now as this conversation has spread into quite the Christian debate I have to put in my part there. I'm a Christian, I believe in God and Jesus as the bible discribes them. I believe the Bible is all truth, not that every part is pure history or anything because there's a good many stories Jesus told that he says are parables, or stories with good morals in them. But I don't ever expect others to believe in the bible just because I do, it's a BELIEF. I believe it, some don't. I can't change anyone's minds unless they are open to the idea. So I don't bother trying to push my beliefs on others because it does no good' and can do alot of harm IMO. I don't have solid proof God exists. I have some proofs that certain parts of the bible are truth and historical" but I do not have flat out facts stating it's all true. I think no matter what you believe, it's your belief and it all has an element of unknown. Even science hasn't figured out everything, so it's just a matter of what you personally think is most likely. Sme days I worry I believe wrong, but there's something in me I believe to be the holy spirit that helps me recognize the truth as I see it and become content in my faith.
I hope this doesn't come across confusing, but I *think* it's pretty accurate as to how I believe.

Krista - posted on 04/25/2011

i would like you to refrain from calling us people animals. this is blasphemy.

Um, no.

It's fact.

We're not minerals, Danielle.

Nor are we vegetables.

If YOU don't want to refer to human beings as animals, due to your beliefs, then that is your prerogative.

However, it is beyond absurd to ask those around you to tiptoe around your beliefs by refraining from referring to one of the most basic scientific facts in existence.

And you keep asking us to refer to this well-known case of an atheist who found your god and became a believer.

Shall we refer you to the innumerable cases of believers who examined their beliefs, examined the evidence out there, and came to the conclusion that they were atheists?

I know that you think that by trying to preach your "truth" to us, you're just trying to save our souls from mortal peril, and that to you, it is akin to seeing people in a burning building who are too stupid to try to leave.

Well, from our viewpoint, those flames are simply a figment of your imagination, and we think it's rather absurd for you to be running around like a decapitated chicken trying to save us from a peril that does not actually exist.

We're all grownups here, Danielle. We're all intelligent women. Our eyes and ears and brains are just as functional as your own. So just because we have come to a different conclusion than you, that does not mean that we are wrong. And it would be nice if you could respect the fact that we ARE all grownups and that we have the right to choose our own spiritual path, without being harangued by others.

Kelly - posted on 04/25/2011

Wow, I don't know where to start....I don't know if I believe in the Bible or God, or not--there are people, like Teresa on here, who make me wish I could believe so much it hurts, then those like Danielle who kind of make me thankful that I'm not able to wrap my mind around it.

I LOVE what Laureen and Jodi have said about fiction and imagination, and, though they are not mentioned here, there are actual studies that show that fictional stimulation activates and exercises a different part of the brain than factual stimulation. The part of the brain worked out by fictional stimulation (i.e. fairy tales and such) is directly linked to stronger abilities in problem solving and ORIGINAL thought (thought not created from memories--it has a technical name, I don't remember it).
Remember, most of the greatest inventions were invented because their creator thought of something that could not, factually, be done and figured out a way to make it happen--telephones, internet, electricity! If these inventors had only been taught factual knowledge, they would not have had the cognitive development required to think of these things that had never been thought of before, and figure out, on their own, how to make them a reality.


I have to ask, Danielle, because I'm confused by it due to the impression that you are such a devout Christian, and I'm not trying to be condescending, so I hope this doesn't come off that way, but do you really not know who the Vatican is, or was that a sarcastic comment that went over my head?

Minnie - posted on 04/25/2011

I would die without fiction. Classic and modern.



Anyways, getting into this late, but I read most. We are a family that chooses to let our children go their own way with their imaginations. We haven't mentioned the Easter Bunny or Santa at all. Not to tell them they're real and not to tell them they're not. I think my now five year old was asked last year what she was getting from Santa and she sort of gave her grandpa a confused look- then went off to play with her relatives.



So the holidays for us are about spending time with our families. They have no lack of imagination, either- it's just that they have freedom in it without us feeding it with the Easter Bunny or Santa.



I could care less what other people do regarding those characters.



This Christian believes that much of the Bible is hyperbole, metaphor and poetic license and that I am an animal. And that animals evolve. Because I'm pretty sure I carry out many biological functions every day and am not made of pixie dust.

Sapphire - posted on 04/25/2011

Wow Ladies! THANK YOU! (yup-caps on) I have my writing prompt for this Friday. (9th grade English for those who don't know what I teach) Not only are we reading Romeo & Juliet, love teh Shakespeare reference. I'll throw in a persuasive prompt about "childhood characters" like the ones referenced here. I'll let you know how it turns out!

Erin - posted on 04/25/2011

Is this for real? Or a special Easter troll?

Michelle - posted on 04/25/2011

My son got in trouble for explaining to his friends that santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy aren't real.... and that it's the parents who buy all of the stuff....hmmm

Charlie - posted on 04/25/2011

"jenny, the soul is what animates the body....see touch feel ect... our soul lives for all eternity. it does not die. our body is a vehicle for the soul. "

Then what animates an animal ? you do know they see , hear , feel ....you do know they contain energy just like us human species ?

'Animal' is a word with a certain biological definition. "A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure."

We are all of that although the evolution of our minds and egos sees ourselves as something higher , we are top of the food chain but it doesnt mean we arent animals .

Sprituality is a concept we use we have no deifinitive evidence that animals are not spiritual either but we do know many animals bare characteristics not too unsimilar from our own "morals " , they have a sense of right and wrong just like us all though lack the impulse control of humans .

Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

Until recently, humans were thought to be the only species to experience complex emotions and have a sense of morality.

But Prof Marc Bekoff, an ecologist at University of Colorado, Boulder, believes that morals are "hard-wired" into the brains of all mammals and provide the "social glue" that allow often aggressive and competitive animals to live together in groups.

Prof Bekoff believes morals developed in animals to help regulate behaviour in social groups of animals such as wolves and primates.

He claims that these rules help to control fighting within the group and encourage co-operative behaviour.

Recent neurology work has also revealed that distantly related mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same structures in their brains that are thought to be responsible for empathy in humans.

Other findings have also suggested that some animals may even be capable of showing empathy with the suffering of other species.

Human morality was not formed from scratch, but grew out of our primate psychology. Primate psychology has ancient roots, and other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality

Medic - posted on 04/24/2011

God forbid any of us MUCHLESS our children think for themselves... haha..this has to be some sick joke. Humans are Mammals..Mammals are animals...therefore Humans are Animals!!!! I am all for people believing whatever it is that gets them through the day, but it gets to a certain point where you have to look at the world around you and take some of it in. God does not tell you to SHOVE your beliefs down other peoples throats. Nor does he tell you that you have any right to judge others. Lastly for god to be able to judge anyone in the end they must first believe. OHOHOHOH I have a question...If 'god' created this whole earth and everything in it, then why would you not want to expose your son to all of 'gods' work? I do not believe anyone intended anyone of any religion (minus a few wack job cults) to live in a bubble. I live my life with what I think are good morals and ethics, my kids have good morals and ethics, I believe in science, my kids sometimes go to church if they ask too. I do not think it is my place to shove anything down my kids throats, it is my job to show them the world and everything it has to offer all of the good bad and ugly. It is for them to decide where to run with it. If you are so confident in your beliefs you would have no problem letting your son decide for himself.

Charlie - posted on 04/24/2011

I was actually thinking of Jamie when I read that LOL.

Jodi - posted on 04/24/2011

"when you lay in bed tonight and it is quite, you might think of what i said, and talk to the only one who is listening. and feel his love rain down upon you."

@ Loureen, it sounds like Danielle is phrophesizing you whispering sweet nothings in your partner's ear, and him totally ravishing you.... :P

Jodi - posted on 04/24/2011

OMG, this is totally laughable!!!

ANyway, I will address the issue of the homeschooling.

Do you not, Danielle, find it sad that your son cannot be taught all that there is available to him in the world, and then CHOOSE to come back to God on his own, rather than having ONLY that path taught to him and never having a choice in the matter for himself? Wouldn't it make you a proud parent to be able to allow him to learn of other things in the world, but still be a student of your teachings? Rather than being a student of your teachings because it is what you shove down his throat?

Sal - posted on 04/24/2011

hmmm blasphemous to call people animals.....bugger, i am so off the hell, i call my kids little animals all the time, is it just me, but i was never aware that there was any dispute that humans were animals....what the hell are we, i'm not a f@#king rock, or a plant (mind you some of my kids might just be all gas i;m starting to think)

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

esther, i will adress your question tomorrow, you have my word, iam so tired now it is 12 27.

jenny, the soul is what animates the body....see touch feel ect... our soul lives for all eternity. it does not die. our body is a vehicle for the soul. there are so many people giving there testimonies(watch it on utube!) of near death experiences, where they can see there body above themselves. a famouse satanist before his death while almost dead was in shock, recorded saying"oh no, what have i done...this isnt good" wide-eyed. look into this mere truth if it will help you.
a common ancestor that no longer exists? where is this fossil and information since you are talking facts?
i would like you to refrain from calling us people animals. this is blasphemy.

Loureen, i have your name right now. =)
my prayer for you is this.
when you lay in bed tonight and it is quite, you might think of what i said, and talk to the only one who is listening. and feel his love rain down upon you.

love danielle

Sal - posted on 04/24/2011

my goodness didn't that just get a little colourful, i have a few points i have noticed and would like to comment on..".why teach it to your children when its not true? what a waste of time, and effort!" really how lazy do you have to be when that is too much effort, it seems to me that is really is far more time consuming to go down the teach them the truth track....secondly for my 2 cents worth, i don;t think the bible is total fiction, it is kind of like an unauthorised bi ography written by people who heard from some other guy, but they were a freind of mums sisters brother....by that it is (IMP) what thay call a FOAF story (freind of a freind story) so probally was some truth at the heart of it but never let the truth stand in the way of a good story....
thirdly harry potter is evil!!!!! you have got to be shitting me, he is solely (well sort of) for the literacy incline of most of my sons generation, i don;t care what the book was about it made kids want to read and that is something the bible hasn't been able to do since this printing press thing took off and kids got a choice of books....
and lastly i think that schooling a child (and this isn;t anti home school just anti narrow school) is teaching your kids and challanging them giving them all the experiences and knowledge to go forth in the big bad world equipted with all they need to make great adults, and only teaching them the bible is not going to do that in our modern world, ,

and my daughter still hates santa for taking her bottle for the baby reindeer last year.....but i guess she'll survive..

Charlie - posted on 04/24/2011

A human is an animal our egos preceed us .

Im not mocking you and I know your not mocking me , No
I wouldnt call out to god just as I would call for santa , I would call an ambulance if no phone was to be around ( which is unlikely as I carry my mobile everywhere ) I would try to use my first aid skills to help myself or scream until my neighbour came over to see me .....This is my honest answer to your hypothetical ..

Jenny - posted on 04/24/2011

There is no such thing as a soul.

Monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor that no longer exists, not humans FROM monkeys. This fact cannot be stressed enough it seems.

ALL species have a common ancestor right down to a mole and a fern.

A human IS an animal.

Seriously, Danielle, this is accesible, factual information.

Esther - posted on 04/24/2011

Yeah I don't know how anyone could claim the bible to be completely non- fictitious either, even if you believe in God. There are several clear contradictions in the bible that cannot all be literally true.



For example in two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the husband of Mary and step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham (verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is Joseph. How can this be true?



And then this: "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."



"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11) 

"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34) 

"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9) 

"God is love." (1JO 4:16)



Seems to me there's got to be some fiction in there at least to explain that kind of stuff away.

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

I love them, if you didnt see my statement. i do love them, that is why iam showing them truth, and wanting them to see it. anyone who thinks iam coming strong, see that i care for your soul, more than what anyone thinks of me.
on judgement day, it will only be me and God.

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

all do respect,loureen, iam having a conversation not mocking you. you know where i was coming from(if there was no phone to reach, to be more specific. i guess you must live and learn.

but saying the peoples right brain this,.ect...is not accurate.

an animal is an animal. a human a human.
monkeys are still here ! they are not exstinct.
we have a soul. animals dont.

i thought you said something about vatican(sorry to misunderstand you)

love danielle

Teresa - posted on 04/24/2011

No kidding, really? I'm well aware that this isn't the actual day that Christ rose from the dead. Just as I am well aware that Christmas isn't the actual day of his birth. But it IS symbolic and important. I'd be just as disturbed reading your tirade on any other day of the week/year too.....

Everyone here knows what I believe. They may not agree, but they respect me and my approach. I definitely DO stand up for my beliefs, but I'm not going to beat anyone in the head w/ it. I speak the truth in LOVE.... just as God has called me to do.

Charlie - posted on 04/24/2011

Oh gosh ....*deep breath *



"tell me, if you were to fall at your house, couldent move, scared out of your mind.....close to death... you wouldent call on God????"



I would call an ambulance .



"where does it ever say the men in the bible talked to themselves, as dumb? they lived longer than civilization today! invented things before any of us"



They didnt talk to theselves as in out loud , their right side of the barin talked to the left it is heard in their heads and is often called scizophrenia in todays society .



It often overlaps all senses , sight , sound , smell ect .



yes they MAY have lived longer they didnt have masses of carcinogenic pollutants , preservatives in food , GMO foods , heavy industrializations ect , ect and yes they invented things so did the neolithic man !



who is the vatican ? *sigh*

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

iam proclaiming righteosness. teresa, where have i not?



iam an extremest for sticking up for God and his truth, if you are a christian, you should too!



you say today is important. respecting you on this.

easter is in honor of the day of the passover. in the new testament, passover could be celebrated how often anyone chose to. today is not the specific day jesus rose from the tomb, we are to remember his death and resurrection every day!

Jenny - posted on 04/24/2011

Danielle, if they lived longer than we do today, why are there no fossils proving that? Why does the structure of our DNA not support that? Why do we find fossils of our ancestors but not modern man in our present form? Because we evolved, that's why.

If you don't understand how the science works that is fine but there is no sense debating every point of evolutionary biology to someone not willing to accept any conclusion but a creator.

Teresa - posted on 04/24/2011

Thank you Loureen! Easter is the most precious, important holiday to me. Then to come on here today of all day's and read Christianity being given a bad name by yet another extremeist..... Well, it sucks.

Charlie - posted on 04/24/2011

Teresa , you know we love you, bible and all : )

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

science? we appeared from an atomic gas scructure and cell? isnt this more fiction? all these things you see, the grwing fetus in the womb, all the different fish and animals, the high mountaintps and luscoius food. it just is?
tell me, if you were to fall at your house, couldent move, scared out of your mind.....close to death... you wouldent call on God????

where does it ever say the men in the bible talked to themselves, as dumb? they lived longer than civilization today! invented things before any of us! even had God speak in unumerable ways, even sending his son that we may have atonement(that will cloke our sin) to live unto him.
who is vatican? a savoir? did he die for you? why take him at such a prestige?

lourren, iam so sorry you have been saddned and confused by people claiming to be under the name of God. remember: you will know them by there fruits. a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and a good tree bad fruit.

iam here for you.

Teresa - posted on 04/24/2011

Wow.... this got good. Actually NOT good, rather scary and depressing in fact.....

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

love unto you, and all

Charlie - posted on 04/24/2011

Caps used in every word is considered yelling on the net thats all :)



What will make me change my mind ? hard , solid evidence that god exists until then I will stick with reality , nature and science .



I think it is a "fairy tale" because it is reliant on the word of MEN living in a time when the human brain was still in the process of development , when the two sides of the brain still commonly "talked" to each other , we rely on the word of men who lived in a world where mental illness was rife , like I said if there is proof , solid proof I will gladly say I was wrong .



To address the metaphor's presented in the bible ....Even the vatican says the bible is not to be taken literally ...



There is just as much evidence for an easter bunny as there is for " god " My child can choose to believe in god too , I will still support him reguardless of my beliefs .



And if we are going to pull the sin card you can put it right back in your pocket , the biggest attrocities in THE WORLD are comitted under the name of " god " I live a good life with strong morals and values I dont need a bible to tell me how to live life and I dont look down on anyone who does use one as guidence but I certainly dont "hate" the bible because I love wickedness .....quiet the opposite actually .

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

can i send you a dvd? or would you liek me to manually type? the case for chirst. an atheist turned believer by the simple notion of pure evidence.

Jenny - posted on 04/24/2011

Again, I don't debate in metaphor but I'd love to give it a go when you have some evidence.

Kate CP - posted on 04/24/2011

I'm just hearing thumping coming from my computer...hmmm...

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

jenny, is this due to the fact that you love unrighteosness? if you loved righteosness you would love God, for he is righteous, and his word has his back on who he is.

harry potter is wicked. wichery, spells, majic: all apart of the occult. flee from this evil.

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

rebecca, thank you for the information. you know, i learned about shakespear in high school, iam now 25, and dont remember anything from it.....?

my son is only 2, and in the future i will educate him on who different people were according to the state of californias homeschool ruling code.
there are also excellent biblical stories and lessons from the bible that are great!

Jenny - posted on 04/24/2011

I don't debate in metaphor.

While the bible contains historical figures and places it is no more proof of god than Harry Potter is proof of wizards since we have proof of London, owls and subways.

Danielle - posted on 04/24/2011

jenny
YOU SAY it is fiction. i would warn you to be careful what you come against. your words are powerful. have you looked into the evidence of christianity? have you seen the oldest documented dead sea scrolls (before all other religions.....
have you not noted teh prophesies coming to pass? or will the tribulation have to come(which everyone will have to recieve the mark or be (killed if you believe), your own spirit leaving your body, ect...
what is so incorrect about PURE TRUTH? it is explaining righteosness, conduct, love, obedience, empowerment from the holy spirit, perfect peace, ect.....

Rebecca - posted on 04/24/2011

And actually, Shakespeare wrote characters that were often religious. For instance, Isabella in Measure for Measure is a novice nun. She is propositioned by a very nasty, powerful man and is told if she doesn't do what he wants - he'll kill her brother. She chooses to sacrifice her brother than have her soul tainted and not be able to enter heaven. There are many examples...Shakespeare liked to talk about God.

As well, in Austin, most of the characters are God fearing people. Most of them are chaste women who are not willing to give it up for anyone but their future husbands.

So, yeah...many of the classics were written with God in mind. I mean, The Chronicles of Narnia (written by a Christian with Christian themes), The Little House books (God is a huge part of them)....it'd be a shame if Christian kids couldn't read them - they were written with them in mind.