Who's really responsible?

C. - posted on 05/02/2010

@Erin Cole..



"In ALL cases, man and wife or random stranger, no it is never the woman's (or man's) fault."



THANK YOU!!!!!! THIS IS ALL I WANTED, A SIMPLE ANSWER!





@Krista.. I meant to put "some" in italics, but in my haste I forgot to. I have no problem with answering my question regardless of whether someone agrees or disagrees, which was the only reason I posted this.. I have a problem going off on something that was never meant to be a great big debate. I just wanted a simple answer as to how you all felt, that's all.





@Loureen.. I did close the thread, someone else opened it up w/o my knowledge as if it were theirs to do as they please- which I do not appreciate. I was also closing the thread, not b/c Rachel seemed like she needed to cool off, but b/c I needed to as well and I knew if it stayed open that I would eventually go off on someone. So to avoid that situation, I closed it and low and behold someone opens it anyway. I'm sorry that just really pissed me off. I was just asking a simple question, it was not meant to turn into a full-blown debate. The ONLY reason I brought it on the debate group was b/c it stemmed from another thread that was started on here! That is why I got so bent out of shape, Loureen. And don't tell me to put on my big girl panties. You telling people that is also getting old. If you don't like how someone debates, don't read it!





@Joanna.. I am sorry that happened to you. I appreciate you posting your input on this thread. It really helped a lot.





@Kathy B..



"a woman is never responsible when she is raped. she MAY have shown bad judgment that put her into a certain situation, but if she says NO...it is NO."



Thank you. That answered my question perfectly.





Now, I am going to close this thread again so I can cool off and I would appreciate it if it STAYED closed until I opened it back up!!!

Christa - posted on 05/02/2010

GREAT POINT KATHY!!! That is EXACTLY why rapes are under reported. Because there are people out there who will tell them it was their fault. If that hadn't . . . . . then it never would have happened. So sad that people still think this way. :-(

Kathy - posted on 05/02/2010

i used the Mike Tyson conviction of sexually assaulting a woman in 1992 as a teaching moment with my NINE year old (at the time) son. we were watching the ESPN tv channel and they were discussing the court case.

i told him that when it comes to sex if a woman says no, the man must stop whatever he is doing at that moment, no matter what. if the woman made a decision like going to a man's hotel room at 2am (as reported in the Tyson case), wears "suggestive" clothing, gets drunk, etc. it does not mean she is asking for sex. if a woman has decided to say no at some point, the man MUST control himself, no other action is acceptable, walk away! if the man does not want to be in that situation, with that particular woman again, then don't go out with her again, whatever. but in the end, NO MEANS NO. period.

a woman is never responsible when she is raped. she MAY have shown bad judgment that put her into a certain situation, but if she says NO...it is NO. And if the man continues to force himself on her, it IS the man's fault. again, the male has a choice. in my mind, the smart choice would be to walk away versus going to jail.

there are too many women who do not report rape because they feel they may have done something to deserve it...they need to know it is NOT their fault and they should have the man prosecuted for the violation. too many rapists repeat their assault on other women if they get away with it the first time, we should support women against this act of violence.

Cassie - posted on 05/02/2010

Joanna, I'm very sorry that happened to you (as well as to any other ladies on here who have been raped).

That goes back to what another lady said about being able to run down the street naked and still not be raped. I know that by law, in the state of Ohio, I can walk down the street topless legally. While I would never actually do this, if I did, it would not give anyone the right to sexually assault me!

Every man and woman should be held fully accountable for their actions when they violate the sexual rights of another no matter what the person was (or was not) wearing.

Joanna - posted on 05/02/2010

My husband knows that if I say no, even one grope from him gets a smack in the face, lol.

I have been raped before, while I was a stripper (just because I'm s stripper doesn't mean I'm a prostitute, but some guys don't get that). Just because I'm topless and giving a guy a lapdance does not mean it's my fault I was raped, I was doing my job, my company's website (that you need to visit to get the phone number), as well as my opening statements whenever I'd dance for someone, specifically states NO SEXUAL CONDUCT IN ANY FORM. But to some people, because I was half naked and dancing seductively, it was totally my fault (the judge/jury thought so since the guy got let off clean). *eye roll*

Charlie - posted on 05/02/2010

"And one more thing, why would a woman say "No" to her own husband"

You do realize that 21% of reported rape cases are committed by husbands or boyfriends .

Rape is rape no matter who commits it .

Im glad you didn't close the thread its INCREDIBLY annoying when you continuously close threads in this debate forum and others simply because people disagree , you asked a question in a debate forum , expect debate and try and act a little more dignified the amount of times you tell people to get a grip and grow up in the middle of a debate is really getting old and is not a valid form of debate , please take the time to read up on what debate actually entails and please put on your big girl panties next time you decide to have a real debate .

Jodi - posted on 05/02/2010

Thank you Esther, I was going to respond to that, and you said exactly how I was feeling. I was raped by my ex when I was married to him because he believed it was his right - he believed if he wanted sex, his wife MUST be obliging. Just because I was in a skimpy nightdress in the same bed doesn't give him ownership rights. "STOP" means "STOP" regardless of the circumstances.

Krista - posted on 05/02/2010

Quote: And one more thing, why would a woman say "No" to her own husband, especially if SHE is the one that wanted to start something??



Maybe she just wanted some romantic necking, or even some soft, sensual lovemaking, and he had something altogether different in mind, and when she protests, he keeps on going, she says, "No, I'm serious, stop it," and he doesn't, and there you have it: marital rape.

Esther - posted on 05/02/2010

And one more thing, why would a woman say "No" to her own husband, especially if SHE is the one that wanted to start something??

Carolee - posted on 05/02/2010

Oh, and a third thing the normal drunk guy would realize...



THERE'S ALWAYS MORE THAN ONE DRUNK GIRL AT A BAR TO CHOOSE FROM IF HE STRIKES OUT WITH THE FIRST ONE!!!

Carolee - posted on 05/02/2010

A normal drunk man in the position of the OP would realize two things.

1. Being drunk usually means that the "little guy" doesn't work properly.

2. If the woman says "no", there's always two hands attatched to his body to choose from (with the option of lotion if it's nearby).



A man who wanted to rape somebody would go to the bar with the mission of getting laid, target some drunk chick, and not listen if she said "no".

Krista - posted on 05/02/2010

Huh...seems like most of the responses have been pretty cool-headed. Rachel got a little spazzed-out, but from what I can see, all the other responses were strongly stated, but I don't see anybody "going off" on you.

But hey, your thread. If you want to lock it, fill your boots. You might want to put some thought, though, into what all of the other women here are saying -- they're making sense. And if their attitudes were shared by the rest of society, it's very possible that rape would decrease, because would-be rapists would know that the days of blaming the victim are over.

Erin - posted on 05/02/2010

In ALL cases, man and wife or random stranger, no it is never the woman's (or man's) fault.

Jessica - posted on 05/02/2010

... I love how you still get surprised and spazz when people react this way to this topic...you already knew the answer as this is the BASZILLION and oneth time it's been a conversation on COM and it is always the same out come....

C. - posted on 05/02/2010

@Rachel Diezmann..

Ok, first of all it wasn't about a husband and a wife, Rachel, get it right please. It was about just a man and woman in a bar, never did I say that they knew each other, which can make a huge difference. And one more thing, why would a woman say "No" to her own husband, especially if SHE is the one that wanted to start something?? Second of all, CHILL OUT!!!!

I'm closing this thread for a while until people can cool off!! Good grief! Do you not know how to read? This wasn't meant as some big debate over it.. I WAS ASKING A QUESTION. A SIMPLE question b/c I am personally on the fence about it and I wanted to know what other women thought, not for some of you to go off on me. GET A GRIP!

Iris - posted on 05/02/2010

I agree with the majority here. Rape victim is never at fault for all the reasons that has already been mentioned.

Rachel - posted on 05/02/2010

IT IS NEVER EVER THE WOMANS FAULT!!!!!!!!!!! Ok using the same senario as the original post husband and wife at a bar the wife is drunk, the hubby is drunk and wants a bit the wife starts out all keen for it but then decides that she dont feel like it any more and says no, but he's all worked up and just takes it anyway, DOES THAT MEAN THAT HIS WIFE ASKED TO BE RAPED, THAT SHE DESERVED TO BE RAPED BECAUSE SHE GOT HER HUBBY ALL WORKED UP AND THEN SAID NO???

Now as a women we have the right to wear what we want when we want, and that does not mean that any man or woman has the right to just assume that this chick is easy and will put out because she decided to wear a mini skirt and a boob tube.

I dont care if a woman is dancing and rubbing herself all over a man, he has no right to just take what he wants from her no matter how provocative she has been or how many drinks he has bought her, if she says no and i dont care at what point she says no she has still said no and he needs to respect that and stop no matter what. A few of my male friends have asked me if she has been playing along all night and i'm just about to put it in and then she says no, do i stop or do i continue because she has teased me that bad that i'm that hard and ready to go and i need to be relieved, so what do i do then? and my answer is always stop she said no, ask for her number and excuse urself to the bathroom and have a wank it relieves all the pressure.

I'm so sick of people saying that a woman has to be careful about what she wears or how she acts, when it does'nt matter what she wears or how she acts because if she says no then thats it, she means NO and he has no right to keep going. It really pisses me off that us woman have to go to all kinds of lenghts to make sure that we dont get them to worked up and say no, because thats not nice, but my question is why is everyone so focused on the woman going to extreme lenghts to prevent the attack when men are just as capable or controling themselves. Ok now i no that would be hard for a man when a woman is being all flirty and tarty with him getting him all aroused but then says no and for sure that would give him blue balls, but what if it was the same senario but instead of saying no she goes home with another man, now that would give him blue balls to. So in my opinion if a male is in the situation where she was all keen and then says no, the MAN SHOULD EXCUSE HIMSELF TO THE BATHROOM AND HAVE A WANK, that way no woman has to get raped and no man has to have blue balls.

Sara - posted on 05/02/2010

No matter what position a woman puts herself in, it's never ok to have sex with someone without their consent, period. If you change your mind in the middle of getting down, then that's your right. There is no situation, in my mind, that makes it ok for anyone to be made to have sex when they have said no.

Cassie - posted on 05/02/2010

a woman (or man depending upon the circumstances) is NEVER responsible: no matter what she was wearing, where she was walking, or what she was doing. Nothing can excuse the attacker!

Rosie - posted on 05/02/2010

i find that argument ridiculous. anybody could get away with anything in drunkeness was an excuse. so a murderer can be drunk and kill someone because they were drunk and pissed him off? nope, no way, no how, ever will it be okay to blame the victim. if there was any responsibility on the womans part she would have to get thrown in jail, or there would be laws prohibiting women from dressing in certain ways. are there these laws? NO. why? because bpeople control what they do, nobody else. i've been explaining this to my 5 year old lately. he doesn't seem to understand that when grant or lucas pisses him off, it doesn't excuse his behavior afterward. "but they made me do it mom!! if he wouldn't of said that to me, i wouldn't of hit him!" . he's learning, if a 5 year old can learn that he controls his action and nobody else, i'm pretty sure an adult can handle the same. FML....

Krista - posted on 05/02/2010

Quote: It's never the woman's fault. I don't care if she was walking around naked in a bar full of drunk men - no is no and any man who just decides to ignore that should get his ass hauled off to prison. That being said of course there are things women can and should do to minimize the risk to their safety and wellbeing. But not being smart about your safety is no excuse for being assaulted.

This. Exactly this.

Jodi - posted on 05/02/2010

No means no. A woman never deserves to be raped, it is never her fault, in my opinion.

?? - posted on 05/02/2010

I agree 100% whole heartedly with Esther's response.



The second a woman indicates NO, before or during, any sexual activity after that is apparent, that is when it becomes RAPE. There are no exceptions. There are no excuses. There are absolutely no cases where it is the fault of the victim, when the attacker didn't choose to stop.



It doesn't matter what the circumstances are leading up to the attack, it doesn't matter what the relationship between the man and woman are, it doesn't matter where they are or what they were doing or how they were doing it - the moment the attacker CHOOSES to continue after the victim has tried to stop them - it is rape.

Charlie - posted on 05/02/2010

Never the woman's fault , No man or woman has the right to anyone else's body regardless of any situation or clothing or amount of alcohol or any other ridiculous , weak and pathetic excuse people like to come up with .

No MEANS NO , no matter when it is said sheesh didnt anyone else learn this at school we had a whole class on it , people need to stop validating these monsters and giving them excuses .

I agree with Sharon even if they are in the middle of sex and she says NO MORE , sex previous to her changing her mind is consensual BUT if he continues to have sex with her he is raping her .

Esther - posted on 05/02/2010

It's never the woman's fault. I don't care if she was walking around naked in a bar full of drunk men - no is no and any man who just decides to ignore that should get his ass hauled off to prison. That being said of course there are things women can and should do to minimize the risk to their safety and wellbeing. But not being smart about your safety is no excuse for being assaulted.

Sharon - posted on 05/02/2010

It is NEVER the womans fault.



men are not wild apes intent on asserting dominance and creating as many offspring as possible.



I don't care if his dick is already inside and she changes her mind. It went from consensual sex to rape the minute he didn't stop & pullout.



Is she a stupid bitch? yes.

Christa - posted on 05/02/2010

Ok I just read the other thread and I do agree with you that certain clothes/behaviors are more likely to attract an attacker, but I still put the blame on the man. However as a women I am careful not to purposely dress in a manner that would make a predator more likely to pick me out of the crowd.

Christa - posted on 05/02/2010

No it's never the womens fault. I'm surprised that as a women you would even think that. In the case you described, he needs to stop. How many men do you know that have gotten blue balls? I bet every one. It's called self control they are not animals. The man is ALWAYS in control of his actions and if he forces himself on a women, I don't care what she is doing or wearing, that's on him. That said obviously women want to be careful not to get themselves into bad situations because men can be scum and nobody wants that to happen to them. I guess maybe the ONLY exception I could think is if a women is openly taunting a man about raping her, but in that case that women has issues of her own.