Why don't school buses have seat belts?

Katherine - posted on 01/21/2012 ( 137 moms have responded )

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Honestly. I've pondered this and googled it, but I haven't found a fitting answer. Some articles say it could be the school's liability if the child doesn't buckle and something happens.



Some say they have made it safe by compartmentalization but in the same sentence say crash test dummies were thrown into the air. WTF???? Some say it is as close to being as safe as air and train travel.



So who's right? What's right?

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Sherri - posted on 01/23/2012

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Actually in inclement weather our kids aren't on the buses Laura because school is closed. Not to mention to your research the likely hood and odds of those things happening are actually extremely slim.



Here are some statistics of the safety of school buses.



"The safety record of school transportation is just about untouched by any other mode," Eric Bolton, spokesman for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA),



Every year school buses carry some 24 million students and collectively travel more than 4 billion miles. Considering how many kids the buses carry and the distance they cover, deaths on the road are extremely rare. School buses have a rate of 0.2 deaths per 100 million miles traveled. The rate of deaths in automobiles is eight times higher.



That's how safety officials like to put it, because it's a statistically accurate way of comparing risks. Here's another way to look at it: Over a span of 11 years, from 1994-2004, a total of 71 passengers on school buses died in crashes. In the year 2004 alone, traffic accidents killed 31,693 people traveling in cars and light trucks.

Isobel - posted on 01/21/2012

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there's nothing bigger than a bus that the bus is likely to hit other than another bus or a building...and those options seem relatively unlikely...as opposed to the risk of children being trapped by said seatbelts if something as unlikely (like landing in a lake) happened. It's a trade off. It's the same reason there are no seatbelts on trains or normal buses or subways.



Basic physics says that in order to "throw the things inside around" you'd need to hit something the same size or bigger than you.

Tammy - posted on 01/26/2012

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I read a few of these posts but then stopped because it seems there are a few mothers who refuse to here the "FACTS", I think, they feel that its more important to be right...?

There has been some moms on here who have been Absolutely Correct!

I am a school bus driver, and i agree, that does not make me a pro, but I do have more access to the stats. I also have watched MANY videos on bus accidents. Roll overs, crashes head on collitions, bus-train accidents, ect...

I also have my own young children, riding that bus with me! And the other 58 kids are my extended family!! so it is very important to me that we are ALL safe.

First of all, it is very unlikely that we will roll over, but in the event... I do NOT want seat belts on my kids. (When i say "my" i mean all 60!) If we roll over chances are we also will start on fire because of all the fuel. I can NOT get all "my" kids out of those seat belts if we are on our side, or upside down, I could not even get 60 seat belts unhooked right side up in a matter of minutes!!? And so tell me? Which children do I pick to save...? And how do you feel if it was not your child. What if I only got the first 5 seats and your child was in the 6th...? This is why the mother early mentioned a huge liability.

With that, the other part of it being a huge liability is... I can not drive the bus safely and make sure everyone is belted at all times. Most of those kids will not stay in their seat belts, so if an accident occured rather its major or a minor fender bender, parents would definitely jump at the chance to have a law suit against the school or me, for not having their child safely belted. And not to mention the amount of kids that would welcome the new weapon that they would gain if we added seat belts. And to those mothers who think that, that would never happen! I say to you, get out from underneath your rock!!!

Laura was Absolutely right, there are few things that are bigger and tougher then a bus. Buses are built extremely strong, we are inspected by the state every year, and no one takes the task of transporting kids lightly. It is the most precious cargo! The bus sits very high so most objects go right underneath, the seats are high and "Very" padded. Upon very hard, head on collisions, the front section of the bus, where the driver sits and where the motor is, it is also designed to break free from the rest of the bus. This is for the safety of the children.

We have 6-8 emergency exits. (depending on the bus) it is mandatory that we practice emergency evacuations with the children throughout the year. The children are taught to get themselves to safety, which is a safe distance away from the bus, in the event of a fire. They are also taught to use the radio in the event that I am uncontious and I can't call for help.

I hope this helps to understand a little more... The school DOES care about your child. The state that you live in,DOES care about your child. AND your child's bus driver, DOES care about your child! Chances are when referring to his/her 60 kids, they to use the words "my kids"! : )

The statement, the school doesn't add seat belts to buses because there to expensive.... That just is SO Untrue!! They simply don't add them, because they arent safe to have on a bus!

Still Don't believe me...? Someone here posted some stats on vehicle vs bus accidents. Look into it for yourself. There is also many groups of different specialist who study only school buses. It is there jobs and missions to finding the safest possible way to transport kids. Some of those specialist have had injured children and have dedicated themselves to making our buses as safe as possible. And they are!!

Mary - posted on 02/01/2012

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I'm sort of ambivalent on the whole seat belt on the bus thing. Of course, I grew up rolling around in the back of my mom's humongous Grand Torino station wagon. Sometimes we sat on the seat, sometimes on the floor, and sometimes in the "way back" with the family Lab, hanging our heads out that nifty window on the back of that monstrosity. I think that car had lap belts, but they were smushed into the seat cracks, lest the be used as a weapon to smack my sister with ;-)



I know, it's amazing that we are both still alive and in one piece today!



At any rate, I did want to pop in here and say that the thought of putting a teenager in a 5 point harness is absolutely absurd. As for the suggestion that the parents get on and secure them in the mornings...ummm, that would be just dandy, except that where I am, most parents aren't going out to the bus stop with their kids, except for maybe the first day of school. In my court, there are 8 kids that get on the elementary school bus at 0755 in the am. The range in age from 5 though 10. Never do I see the parents go out with them (the youngest have older siblings). In order to allow for the time required to have a parent (or the driver) harness each of the kids in, I'm guessing that it would move up that pick-up time to 0725 at least (since you have to figure in other stops as well). That may not sound horrible to you, but remember - that bus driver is on their second or third run of the day already, having already taken the high school and then middle school kids in. You'd have to bump them back even earlier - which, around here, means that the HS pick-up would have to be before 6am. Yeah...don't see that happening.

Kate CP - posted on 02/01/2012

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Katherine R: In one breath you chastise us for being catty and in your next post you tell Laura to "find her marbles" and to not talk if she doesn't know what she's talking about.



o.O



Pot, I would like you to meet kettle...

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137 Comments

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Jodi - posted on 02/01/2012

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Laura, I am going to have to agree that suggesting a harness, any sort of harness, for a teenager is absurd. It is not uncommon for teens to be the same size as an adult, or larger, in fact it is the norm. Personally, I was almost the same height I am now by the time I was 13. My 14 year old is already about 5'9" and still going, and he is 55kg. So basically, unless you think YOU should go into a harness, then suggesting a teenager do it is way over the top.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Yes, a no on a 5 point not a 3 point... ;)



However, I assumed where the subject is :Why don't school buses have seat belts? that you referencing and continuosly forcing that opinion of a 5 point was and is your stance on how to make them safer. I am unsure of why someone would make a comment if they meant it in a non-rational way. But, OK, thanks for clearing that up for me... ;)

Merry - posted on 02/01/2012

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Ok meme

I just don't care what you think. I can only debate so far before I just don't care anymore.

You said you would vote a no on a harness. That's where I gather you don't care about safety.

And wow you're 13 year old is bigger then me.

By a lot.

So idk.

I never claimed that harnesses were what we should do. I never claimed they were reasonable or needed in busses.

I simply said that if we wanted busses to be as safe as possible then that's the best choice.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Here is another good idea, that would bypass any seat belt requirement... IMO, it is a great idea! However, my only concern would be how do the kids get out if it was the bus driver that died? Dunno but I am sure they can come up with something to relieve that concern too.



There are other ideas, but not in wide use. For example, two researchers at Johns Hopkins University thought that mimicking the safety bar on roller coasters would transfer on school buses. In 1999, Stephen Pantano and William Thompson created a restraining bar system like those used in the amusement park rides. They proposed that the bar would be bolted to the floor, and once children were seated, it could be locked into place.



And more:



The American Academy of Pediatrics advocates having lap-shoulder belts on all new school buses and supports having adult monitors on buses, too, said Dr. Barbara Frankowski, a Vermont pediatrician and chair of academy’s council on school health.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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BTW - I am ENTITLED to my opinion (just like I said you are) I don't require a nasty comment like that unless you want it back two-fold??



The death toll betweem 1994 and 2004 while picking up and delivering over 3 million children twice a day 5 days a week:



Deaths in school bus accidents

•145 people have died in vehicle collisions involving school buses between 1992 and 2001 — about 14.5 a year, according to Transport Canada.

•Of those 145 total fatalities, six were school bus occupants (less than 19 years old)

•An average of one (0.6) school bus occupants died per year. Three of these six fatalities occurred in 1994, one in 1999, and two in 2000.

•One bus driver died in a school bus collision during the same time period, in 1998



So in 11 years, 6 deaths were occupants of a bus... I think a 3 point seat belt would have saved these kids... A 5 point seat belt is over board! You see, I don't think anyone has noticed but I don't typically comment unless I have done my homework OR have experienced the subject myself.



I am not here to bash anyone, I have never started any of my comments in such a tactless way. I am an adult and I respect others, however, if a fight is pushed my way, I am there and I will stand up for myself!!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Ok well my daugher was 80lbs and pushing 5' at 7 years old! So, you are speaking of your children I suppose? She was 4' at age 5. Not all kids at age 5 and older are the same size and a standard 3 point seat belt IS safe.. especially for a bus that can't go over 80km an hour and has compartmentalization.



Now my daughter is 13, 5'7' and 120lbs, I am not buckling her in....



Now, here we go, I was being nice damn it! But you decide you want to go for it? I will agree with others here, your idea is absurd! How about you designate yourself to buckle them all up too.. You stand at the 1st bus stop, hop on and buckle them all in through out the day! I can be bitchy too madam...



Did I say I didn't care about safety? Where did you read that? I agree there should be seat belts just not ones used in Nascar! Seriously? You're serious? Wow! Maybe they should all be required to sit backwards too?



"Come on children (age 15) get on the bus and Mommy is going to buckle you into your 5 point harness, once you have sat down rear facing!" LOL



Oh OK then, GOTCHA

Merry - posted on 02/01/2012

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Meme that's your choice if you don't prefer your kids be safe.

I'm not talking crap here. It IS safer.

You would prefer a broken rib to a dead kid. Bravo. I think every mom on the universe would agree.

I'm not proposing dead children. I'm saying harnesses are safer then standerd seat belts.

and there's car seats that harness until 80lbs and 53 inches so while it might be legal to have a 5 year old in a standerd belt, it's not the safest choice.



But you don't care about safety right!

Thanks Janice. I agree. Car safety has a LONG way to go since so many people are dying in cars these days. There has to be a solution to the death toll

Janice - posted on 02/01/2012

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Don't fret Laura, I really was only asking so I understood your place on the subject.

You are certainly right that it would be safer. 100 years ago cars had no seat belts or any safety measures, so I think its definitely possible that MAYBE someday 5 pt. harnesses will be the norm for all. :)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Oh well, you are entitled to your opinion... It will never happen though. ;) I would be one voting "no" for 5 point....



You know once they are 5 they have stronger ribs and are less likely to have such an issue, hence why they can use a 3 point in a passenger vehicle of which goes much faster than a bus and is 7% more likely to have an accident.



I would prefer a broken rib though then a dead kid but I definitely wouldn't be buckling my kid up on a bus for a 5 point.

Merry - posted on 02/01/2012

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Janice,

Since I'm already in the deep end I might as well solidify my place.

Yep I do.

Why the heck not?

It is safer.

Shoulder belts can break ribs.

And when the shoulder belt isn't used properly the lap belt can cause serious internal damage.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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I know I do not walk my kid to her bus stop, it's around the corner on the street behind us, half way down it... She is 13, if she can't get there on her own then I haven't done a very good job with teaching her responsibility... However, she does know how to put a 3 point seat belt on since she "must" do this in our vehicle since it is a regular lap/shoulder belt...

Sherri - posted on 02/01/2012

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Actually most teenagers on the buses already have drivers licenses so no I can't see making any teenager wear a five point harness.

Tara - posted on 02/01/2012

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**Mod Warning**



Please keep the nasty remarks and personal attacks out of the threads. Keep it civil and on topic or it will be locked.



Tara your friendly dm moderator, who has a short fuse for name calling and personal attacks.

Janice - posted on 02/01/2012

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Laura ♥

Do you think that 5 point harnesses should be in the front seat of vehicles too? Teenagers are adult size, actually many teenage boys are much larger than I am right now. By saying that teenagers should be in 5 pt harnesses you are, IMO, implying that everyone should have 5pt harnesses when in a vehicle. Just asking :)

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2012

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but that's way past safe into bubble wrap zone.



and yes Katherine...dude...chill

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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well Laura there is a first time for everything. However, messing around and having a real beef with you are 2 different things so I m sorry I wont be giving you one.

Over board was towards the teenagers and stuff-

thanks for the proper wakco..

Merry - posted on 02/01/2012

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Well I always hear women complaining about getting nasty PMs so I figured it might be fun to get one myself.

I've never had someone be so downright rude to me so I figured might as well make it a memory



As for overboard, I think personal attacks tend to start the 'overboard' actions.

Mine is just a response to you.



Meme

I don't think harnesses are necessary. I'm just saying that they are the safest choice. And if safety was the only thing they were going for then a harness would be the safest choice.

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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you kinda of go over board- and thanks for the PROPER WAKCO remark- atleast I am proper :) how sweet of you

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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I dont PM like everyone else . I didnt realize you annoyed alot of people. Sorry :) Ill leave you to your PM's.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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I agree seat belts are important but I fail to see the reasons for a 5 point seat belt, IMO, a 3 point seat belt would be adequate..



But try and tell that to NHTSA, they only perform front end collision testing, they have done very little other tests, so again, any type of seat belt would help in a roll over or side collision...

Merry - posted on 02/01/2012

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Katherine if you want to fight dirty why don't you send me a nasty PM like the proper wackos



If you all think a lap and shoulder belt is safer then a 5 pt harness then you all need to re think your logic.

And if you're teenagers 'won't wear it' then I'd take a second look at your parenting skills.



No it's not a realistic solution, it was to point out that the reason busses don't have seat belts is all about the money.

Because if they had endless amounts of money they could design the busses with gas tanks that don't explode, and harnesses that would keep kids alive in the event of a rollover crash" and automatic releases so the driver can get the kids out quickly if need be.



Whether or not your stubborn teen agres would wear the seatbelts is not of my concern.

It's their life they're risking and it's not my job to force anyone else's teenagers to be safe.

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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I was told along with my parents when my siblings and I were riding the bus that they were not designed for seat belts. I am just telling you what was told to my parents and so many other parents- a long time ago. Times have changed, I honestly cant sit here and read nor watch something that has been changed through the years. Everything changes. So I am done I have nothing else to say. It doesnt matter if they were or werent-

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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BTW - they weren't designed to not have seat belts, they just don't want to put the money into them... Read the link I pasted above, get the whole story behind "why", I did...

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Katherine R - did or didn't I just say that my Grandmother drove bus for 40 years?? I didn't drive the bus but she has some doozy stories that I have heard and they came from the horses mouth... ;) I also took all the tests to become a Transit driver, I was lucky though that the career I had chosen fell into place right before I took the Transit job... ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Yes, but you must understand that an accident takes a fragment of a second. So, while the bus driver is yelling to the kid(s) that are standing, while looking in her rear view mirror BANG - WTF oh, we just had an accident and that kid(s) have just gone threw the window.... I thought of this, not sure if anyone else has??

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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well MEME



actually it was the bus driver and the cop on scene who said that and you werent there for theaccident :)



I never said i was against seat belts on buses.



If school buses were DESIGNED to have no seatbelts than they dont need them. I feel my kids if they had to ride buses again would be safe. You can not predict how the driver is going to react to any situation or predict an accident from happening.



Really anyone, that is like saying a chef can diagnose you when its your doctors job to do so. So if you have NO experience and have NO idea what you are talking about then dont talk.

OH by the way, My mother in law drove buses before getting married and moving. Her sister n law still drives buses along with her son- His kids ride on those buses . So whoopty do.

Sherri - posted on 02/01/2012

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Meme kids standing up on the bus is a bus drivers responsibility to nip that in the bud. If kids in our school district even turn around in their seats they are kicked off the bus after one warning. They have to sit at all times facing forward.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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BTW - My Grandmother drove school bus for 15 years and transit for 25 years.... She agrees there should be seat belts... Just saying.. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Did they do a study to say that since the seats had no seat belts that is what saved her?? That sounds rather absurd...



Am I the charming Mom you speak of?? heehehe If so, I also did not say you said that, I read what you wrote:

"Some people have no choice but to have their kids ride a bus in crappy ass weather or ride a bus period."



I was replying that you are correct, some kids have to take the bus, like mine! However, seat belts are a damn good idea... Maybe it would keep them in their seats, rather than constantly getting up and being in the aisle, where they would definitely be hurt badly if there was an accident.... ;)



Katherine R - Are you against seat belts on a bus? How come? What is your theory, other than having no seat belts saved your sister?? Just trying to understand your perspective on this debate subject. Actually, you haven't voiced your opinion in regards to seat belts on a bus, rather resorted to taunting those that have...hmmm, who is speaking when they shouldn't??



Honestly, I thought anyone was entitled to speak, I know I am regardless if anyone likes it or not.... I don't know a lot about buses, I have never designed one but I know enough to know that they move, they are made of material that indents when crashed into and that they flip over....Also, that kids do not sit in the seats correctly. The compartmentalization is great for head on collisions but what about side impacts, rear impacts and flip overs??



Here is an interesting link:

http://www.ncsbs.org/testimonies/seat_be...

Katherine - posted on 02/01/2012

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On another note My sister was in a school bus accident when she was 10 yrs old, it was the seats not having seatbelts that saved her.



To the other charming mom

I never said that parents should not allow their kids to ride buses. I rode a bus when I went to school and if it werent for the fact that my family lives in a small community my kids would be riding the bus.

Actually before moving here is my step son took the bus when he entered the 1st grade. I drove him before that because he was in kindergarten. And my hubands Aunt drove it.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 02/01/2012

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Laura., my brother was the Hodini of car seats. And when we were in elementary school back in NY he was always sliding on the floor of the bus ruining his uniform pants.



I do agree that standard lap and shoulder belts would be a better idea than a 5 point harness. Buses are designed to be stronger and better able to survive accidents than cars. We're not talking sbout someone in a race car going 240KmH plus we're talking about a school bus that hardly reaches above 80Km/H on the highway. I've driven behind those suckers in NY and here in BC



Laura♥♥♥ While you're looking for your marbles, can you try and find mine too :)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Ahh, some smart cookies but do you think they would remember and or try to unhook themselves after an accident, while they are hysterical (bus upside down, you know the scenario) ?? That was my point... ;)



My kid's 5 point is on to where only my finger can slip between (as recommended), he would have a heck of a time but anything is possible...

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2012

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my kids had the five point harness figured out by their first birthday ;) I constantly had to pull over to strap them back in

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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I think it was simply an idea, just a thought being thrown out there... I am sure her marbles are still intact, I have had absurd idea's in the past, maybe, well others may say so. LOL



Although, it is an idea that would never work and is overboard for sure... I do want my kid to be able to get out of the seat belt in the case of an accident. I am pretty sure my 5-10 year old may have no clue or remember any training on how to get a 5 point harness off, mind you, they don't require 5 points in a passenger vehicle either once they are school aged.... ;) Just a lap/shoulder belt, you know, like the school bus driver "must" wear....

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2012

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well...she has gone done lost her last marble if her suggestion is that we put teenagers in five point harnesses ;) (no offense other Laura)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/01/2012

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Katherine R. - Just want you to know my daughter "does" ride the school bus, there is no choice, actually, I could drive her but I believe in her learning responsibility, therefore she must take the bus and not depend on me... ;) She has to be at the bus stop for 7:15am, if I drove her she wouldn't need to be at school until 7:55am (I drive right by her school on my way to work at 7:50am), it would be easier for "her" if I drove her but even though I feel there "should" be seatbelts on buses carrying our children because there has been many accidents and flip overs, where children have been seriously injured, I still choose the bus method for my kids... ;)

Katherine - posted on 01/31/2012

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Laura. Please find your marbles, you done lost your Griffin mind. Race car belts, do we also need monkeys driving the buses to test these belts. Here is a thought. If you have no idea what you ate talking about, don't talk.

Katherine - posted on 01/31/2012

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Its absolutely amazing how catty some of you can get over a simple comment being made by another mom. Seatbelts of all things.

Some people have no choice but to have their kids ride a bus in crappy ass weather or ride a bus period.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 01/31/2012

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Should have mentioned, whenever I am driving behind a school bus the kids are bouncing all over the place, they love it I must admit but good god what if their was a bad accident? How will they stay in their seats without belts?? I am glad my kid only has a short distance when riding to school, I have worried when she was younger and going on class trips... I don't know why, perhaps a worry wart... I had a bad car accident when I was 16, I was lucky to live, I only did because I had a seatbelt on....so now I just worry about my kids when it isn't me driving, I guess! LOL

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 01/31/2012

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School buses, in my opinion, should have seatbelts. They are carrying children that have yet to hit their maximum heights and strength. We have had many buses slide into a ditch and flip over due to bad roads in the winter. A bus is big but becuase of it's size it is hard to control once out of control.... These are our children they have in their care, my kids must always wear a seatbelt in my vehicle including a booster seat until they have hit the right size to be without. I honestly do not find the school buses all that safe and they would be much safer with a seat belt per kid, just regular lap and shoulder belts..in my opinion.. ;)



No school buses that my 13 year old has driven has seat belts in NS, Canada And they never had them when I was growing up in AB, Canada (but that was eons ago! ;) )

Janice - posted on 01/31/2012

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Currently six states—California, Florida, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, and Texas require lap belts but that will be changing to lap/shoulder belts in CA and in districts that can afford it in TX.

Jurnee - posted on 01/31/2012

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All the school buses I know or have been on in the last 20yrs have seat belts.When i was a kid they didnt. Maybe its a state by state policy, my kids have gone to school in NY and Florida.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 01/30/2012

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Same for me Marina. Although here in BC where my daughter goes we don't have as many school buses so I don't see as many . On her bus last year she did have to wear them. But now she walks to school



As I've said before I've heard buses are designed differently

~♥Little Miss - posted on 01/30/2012

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They do. I drive behind a few empty buses on the way to drop my son off at school, and they all seem to have the seat belts hung over the seats, ready to use. I don't know about high school students needing to use them, but i have seen it on young childrens buses.

Sherri - posted on 01/30/2012

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You and I have the same view on car safety but I have different view about buses probably because I rode on one 5 days a week for 12 yrs and have put my kids on one for the past 9yrs. I have done the research seen the statistics and also see what they have done to improve the safety since I was a kid. I am more than satisfied.

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