Was It Murder or Was He Just Exercising His Daddy Rights?

Kristi - posted on 09/10/2013 ( 6 moms have responded )

1,355

3

78

This guy in FL forged his father's (who is a doctor) signature for an online prescription for Cytotec, a drug known to cause miscarriages. He then switched it's label to one for an antibiotic, again showing it was prescribed by his father, and gave it to his pregnant girlfriend with the intent to cause a miscarriage. He was successful. He was facing murder charges under the Protection of Unborn Children Act but agreed to a plea deal and is now facing up to 13 years in prison for tampering with a consumer product resulting in bodily injury and conspiracy to commit mail fraud.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/...

It is being argued that while he might have gone about it the wrong way, he should have the same rights as the mother does to decide if he wants to keep the baby.

It is also being argued that if he were to go down for murder then every woman who has an abortion should go down for murder.

This is not a pro-life or pro-choice debate. Although your position will obviously affect your answer. Please don't turn it into one, they always get ugly.

I want to hear your opinions on these two arguments and if you think a man should have any say when it comes to having or not having an abortion and if so, to what degree should he be allowed to have a say.

Is this a complicated, delicate issue or is it as simple as it's my body, it's my choice?

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Denikka - posted on 09/13/2013

2,160

5

749

I think men should have the right to walk away from a pregnancy.
A woman has two options in that regard, either adoption or abortion. But it is HER body and HER decision on what risks to take with it. Both pregnancy and abortion (including spontaneous abortion aka miscarriage) carry risks.
But this case is just stupid. What if she were allergic to the drug and she had a reaction and died? Then he'd potentially be going down for a double murder.

I have a hard time with fathers rights because it is the woman who physically takes the risks and has the life long health effects. I can only judge by what I did in my own situation.
When I found out I was pregnant with my first child, it was unexpected. I had never really wanted kids, had just finished high school a few months previous (when I found out) and my first thought was panic. The first thing I did was sit down with my partner and let him know what was going on and where I stood with it.
I'm against adoption for myself. I could not give a child into it, and I don't think i could adopt a child myself. I told him that straight up.
Then I told him he needed to make a decision independent of my choice. If he wanted to walk away now (effectively *abort*), and I chose to keep the baby, that was fine. I wouldn't ask him for money, I wouldn't ask him to be a dad. We would go our separate ways and that would be that. That was his *out*. But it was permanent. He was not allowed to change his mind at some point in the future and come back into our child life.
I also told him that if he wanted to keep the baby and I had chosen to abort, I would finish the pregnancy for him, then sign over my rights, but I expected the same courtesy-never ask me for money, never ask me to be any kind of parent figure or involved in the child's life in any way.
We did eventually choose to keep the baby and now have 3 kids. In a lot of ways, I do wish that more women would allow that type of decision.

I don't think it's right that the woman gets to make the only decisions that matter. If she wants to keep it, the guy is roped into support. If she wants to abort, he has no say in that.
But that does not mean that a man can take an abortion decision into his own hands. He should be able to legally walk away, but causing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman when that woman WANTED the child, is murder or an equivalent. No different than punching a pregnant woman in the stomach or throwing her down the stairs or whatever. You see this in other court cases where pregnant women are killed. It goes through as a double homicide or whatever.

Men don't currently have an option when they want the baby and the woman wants to abort. I don't agree with that, but until and unless artificial wombs and the ability to transplant comes about, there's not a whole lot to be done about it.
A man should be able to remove themselves from the process. But there is no way in hell I would EVER condone any person taking it upon themselves to make a decision to abort or force a pregnancy in another person (excluding, obviously, where the pregnant woman is unable to make decisions for herself-either mentally disabled, vegetative state, etc)

Jodi - posted on 09/11/2013

3,562

36

3907

I actually struggle with this particular debate because I DO think fathers should be heard too, but I also believe strongly in the argument that it is a woman's body and her right to choose. In an ideal world, this is a decision a couple should make together, and in their love for one another, be able to resolve without deceit or conflict. But it is not an ideal world. If both parties disagree on the issue, how should it be decided? Is this another case of heading to family court for a decision? Or is this a case of men needing to be more responsible with the contraception and their sexual choices if they don't want to be a daddy? We don't know, in this case, what led to the pregnancy in the first place.

Whether abortion or forced miscarriage, both can have potential negative effects on a woman's body. Myself, I have had a miscarriage that resulted in serious haemorrhaging, hospitalisation and surgery. There is a definite risk to the mother's life in doing what this man did.

Murder? Well, this is where my views come in. I don't believe the abortion of a 7 week fetus is murder. Just as a miscarriage because you were stressed and not taking care of yourself as you should is not murder. I can definitely see the argument that he shouldn't be charged with murder, but I do believe what he did, as a result of the fraud and deceit could potentially have harmed the mother, and there should be charges for that. In the course of a woman choosing to abort, she is not causing bodily harm to the father, so they are different arguments.

6 Comments

View replies by

Kristi - posted on 09/14/2013

1,355

3

78

I agree, Denikka. He won't do much time and he'll probably be asked for the step by step instructions on mail order abortions from every guy in there.

In your first comment, the decision making process you and your partner used would be the ideal way for people to handle things for the most part, I think.

Although, I still struggle some with each parent accepting some financial responsibility. Both people had sex, both people knew pregnancy can be a result. Say neither of them believe in abortion but only one of them decides they want it. Shouldn't the other one bear some of the responsibility? He/she shouldn't necessarily be granted a free pass just because they weren't planning on it and still decided, meh...it's not good for me right now, you can have/keep it. That's just a gray area for me. If each one were using their own form of birth control then I think it would be easier for me to allow the *opt out* option for everyone with no responsibility attached.

Denikka - posted on 09/13/2013

2,160

5

749

The thing is, is that he is only facing UP TO 13 years....he probably won't get nearly that much. With a murder charge, he'd be facing up to life.
But let's face it. Unless it's a high profile case and the judge is *making an example out of* a person, it's not very often that people get the max term, and even if they do, they can get a ridiculously early parole.
I would actually be surprised if he ended up in prison for more than 2 years total, and would not be all that surprised to see him end up with only a few (maybe 6) months.

[deleted account]

I think that what he did was very wrong, but the murder charge is too harsh. I think 13 years is appropriate punishment for his offence. The thing with how much say a person should have with regards to keeping a pregnancy or not, there really is no compromise. one person is always going to lose. If you are having sex then you know a possible consequence of that is that the woman could get pregnant and should take every precaution for that not to happen. For guys, that means wear a condom if you really don't want kids. Unless a girl is poking holes in condoms or pretending to take birth control, and then they should have the option of walking away. Many guys already do exercise this option by simply leaving if they feel they don't want a kid

Kristi - posted on 09/11/2013

1,355

3

78

I'm sorry about your miscarriage, Jodi. xo

Thank you for the excellent feedback. I was having a hard time "defining" my position on this issue as well but I couldn't put into words like you did. Your first paragraph reflects my thought process also. Unfortunately, it's an issue I don't think will ever be resolved.

I do think more people should abstain or use two forms of birth control to prevent all these "accidents." Whether they are accidents in the man's eye or the woman's eye or both, the pregnancies can be prevented thus avoiding this entire situation. People need to start accepting /taking responsibility for their actions.

Join Circle of Moms

Sign up for Circle of Moms and be a part of this community! Membership is just one click away.

Join Circle of Moms