To atheist...

Jenny - posted on 08/23/2011

you funny :)
I can relate to you in some sense. My theory is that if there is no God and no after death and it just ends with that i'm okay with that. Because i have life right now. And i believe in the people around me more than i believe in anything else. Love I experience through people stronger than i directly experience it through God. I think people are all i would need to believe in and live for. And i would also believe in the human brain. I believe that miracles exist outside of the christian faith. So even if there was no God i would still believe in miracles. But i would be agnostic rather than atheist.

Amy - posted on 08/23/2011

The old testament actually taught me a God of vengeance. Tough Love, I guess.

Amy - posted on 08/23/2011

A bit. Mostly, I see God in other people, in love, in life, in nature. I've learned about God in other books as well. Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible. But some things in it Didn't add up to me. I like New Testament. Old....rivals the Quran for morbid murders/death, etc.

Jill - posted on 08/23/2011

When I was 15 I turned away from religion because in my eyes it was nothing but people grasping for power. The Vatican has enough jewels, gold and money to transform a medium sized third world country to something much better and instead they sit on it.

In my eyes if there was/is a diety of some kind it wouldn't want anyone to be above another. Everyone would be equal believers and non-believers, sinners and saints. To me the only rule that should be there is be happy and do something you love. As long as it's not hurting anyone else in anyway shape or form, be happy.

Jenny - posted on 08/23/2011

Did not the book teach you about the loving creator?

Amy - posted on 08/23/2011

i don't believe in a "book" i believe in some of the ideas presented and that there is a loving creator

Amy - posted on 08/23/2011

well, it's more like guidelines than actual rules...lol. sorry. i love potc, quote that all the time.

pretty cool though knowing that the whole 300 thing happened right before he came back and married esther. history's fun, horrid, inspiring, and heartbreaking.

Jenny - posted on 08/23/2011

Yes I know what you're getting at, but one's belief in the bible is very intricate, there are layers upon layers as to why one would believe in the bible so its not as simple for us to just toss it all out, even if it doesn't make sense.

And really is the bible just one big conspiracy theory to force people into behaving? People have died to defend it. I'm not saying that that makes it immediately true, but i think there is a lot more to it than people in power making it up.

In the least I think the bible is a historical descriptive on traditional beliefs and customs as people used to follow. I believe that the authors of the bible fully believed what they were writing to be the inspired word of God.

Barb - posted on 08/23/2011

just umm.. tossing this out there.. the Bible might be ambiguous because the men in power created it, wrote it, put it together as a reason why to keep those not in power that way.. paraphrasing.. i'm not telling you what to do, but if you don't do what is in this book i have, bad bad things are going to happen to you and your children and your grandchildren

Jenny - posted on 08/22/2011

I can empathize with you, the more I read the bible the more messed up i am as a result :/ Wish God could have made it less ambiguous.

Julia - posted on 08/22/2011

I was raised roman catholic, so yes I took that part of it very seriously, then I started reading the Bible. That book is so messed up (IMHO) that it literally made me sick to my stomach. I couldn't bring myself to believe in the Bible as guide on how to live my life, but to read it as a semi accurate historical novel, sure why not.

Jenny - posted on 08/22/2011

Thanks Julia :) I agree they go hand in hand.

Another way to ask this question is Julia, when you made the decision not to believe in God did you take seriously the implication that you may end up in hell as a result?

Julia - posted on 08/22/2011

As a non believer, I try not to make fun of the existence of hell, but I can't believe in one without believing in the other. So not to make a joke but telling me I'm going to Hell is like saying that I'm going to Never Never Land to meet Tinkerbell. Even though Tink would be so much cooler to meet. I have said that if I'm wrong I'll be with family and friends because my family is all fuckered up and some (not all) are non believers as well

Jenny - posted on 08/22/2011

They make jokes about hell just as they make jokes about the "old man in the sky". All because they don't believe in any of it. They're as sure about the non existence of hell as they are of the non existence of God. Some more sure than others.



Either way people shouldn't be scared into believing. And believing shouldn't be about faith overriding intellectual thought. They should go hand in hand.



The bible's evidence for the existence of God is to point at his creation. The complexity of the human design and nature around us should be so awing that it points us straight to God. I guess that is the never ending debate - Intelligent Design or Evolution?

Tah - posted on 08/22/2011

Then they have at least considered it. We all have free will. If they have thought about it and still don't believe then they have chosen, the same way I have.noone has asked them to live a lie. As living a lie wouldn't help anymore than straight-out not believing would. So many seem so sure and I see countless threads where they mock going to hell as being a party and fun times etc that I just wondered if they ever really considered that there was actually a God, so therefore a hell for unbelievers. Again, there is a choice and if they have thought about it and still choose not to believe then that's just the choice they have made.

Jenny - posted on 08/21/2011

This thread was an interesting read :)

But to go back to the original intention of it and to answer the question, Yes i have wondered. However, more from the other side of the question. Let me explain.



I was bought up in a Pentecostal church surrounded by family and friends that believe in God like yourself. And it is only now in this past year that i have been starting to wonder what if i was wrong about God and the bible? So this question applies from both sides of the table.



I'm sure you have thought about whether you were wrong about God. And you have come up with your own conclusion and reason for believing that you were right about Him.



Just as simply, atheists (or rather people who have chosen not to believe in God) have thought about whether God exists and that if they don't believe in Him will they end up in Hell.



But there's more to it than that. And like many in their thread have said(in other words), the thought of living a lie that you don't truly believe is a greater fear (for lack of a better word) than the fear of hell itself.



As i am walking the line between being christian and being an atheist, i find that the questions that Christians are dying to ask the atheists only make sense to the Christians.



My christian brother is big on converting people to Christianity and takes a course (Life Tracks) in how to do this most effectively. The one big problem i find with all their theories in the course is that they are all based from the perspective of Christian thought and reasoning. Unfortunately Christian thought and reasoning only works on Christians :p



So Tah, i would like to ask you if the answer to your question about whether an Atheist thinks about whether they are wrong about God and the bible is "yes" then what? I would like to take your thought further. If the answer is Yes and yet they still choose to not believe then what? What would that mean?

Krista - posted on 08/18/2011

Why others do not get this, I don't know. Call it stubborness or a plain hatred of hope.

Oh horsefeathers. It has nothing to do with stubbornness or a hatred of hope. We simply don't believe the way you do.

Do you believe in Zeus, Teresa? No? Why not? Think about that for awhile, and then you MIGHT start to understand why I do not believe in the Christian God.

Teresa - posted on 08/17/2011

When I was younger I questioned wether the way I was taught God was, was the truth. Luckily He didn't give up on me and I have several persoanl experiances with God to cement my upbringin belief. I know that God is there and He loves me and takes care of me. Why others do not get this, I don't know. Call it stubborness or a plain hatred of hope. I have a firm belief in God and know he loved me enough to give his son to be tortured and crucified for me. I would NOT, as a human , be able to do the same thing. Many will argue that this is just a story but they have embellished their calls from God as a coincidence or just plain luck and karma.

Barb - posted on 08/02/2011

No, i agree, Amy.. i also don't believe everything in that video.

The media seems to like to paint the terrorists that flew the planes into the pentagon and the WTC as ignorant radicals. So much so that i was actually surprised to learn that every one of the terrorists had a Masters or Doctorate degree. These weren't just young, impressionable, uneducated kids that were lead to believe this was the only option.

Amy - posted on 08/02/2011

although hilarious, i don't believe religion is the only reason people think.

"handy instruction manual" cracks me up. although, i'd like that boat - just in case. wizards in hell. LOL. although, i think there was a lot of misinformation and twisted stuff in the video and it's total bullshit, but it was funny.

Barb - posted on 08/02/2011

I saw this video the other day and i thought of this thread. No, i'm not making fun of religion, but i do love satire. All the years i was a christian i never realized the irony of a carpenter being nailed to pieces of wood.

Krista - posted on 08/02/2011

So I'm probably somewhere in the middle of the scale between athiest and agnostic. I don't really believe in a higher power... I believe we can't prove there isn't. So I prefer to remain humble and say, I simply can't prove there isn't nor do I have any desire to prove there isn't.

I have never had issues with people believing in a higher power. Because it has no effect on me. The general sense of having faith, can be very beneficial for people.
But I do have issues with organized religion... because often times it does effect me. Views are pushed on me, negative assumptions are made about me because I don't believe, it is used to hide behind to suit people's personal agendas...

Get out of my brain, Tofflemire! :)

Seriously, though. What you just described is EXACTLY how I feel. Right to a tee.

Jenni - posted on 07/30/2011

hahah yes! I love that docu! And it talks about the observer having an effect on quantum mechanics. ;)

Amy - posted on 07/30/2011

sorry for skimming - doesn't make me a good debater, have to get back to canning....

but, yeah, quantum physics/mechanics is fun. Did you ever watch "what the bleep - down the rabbit hole" was interesting.

my point with the ad etc was that no matter what "studies" are done, they are often done by someone who wants a specific outcome and will pay money for that outcome to be true or to be found to be true most of the time.

if you love science, read teh Disappearing Spoon for kicks. I love science.

Jenni - posted on 07/30/2011

Well I don't put much validity into a tv program meant to entertain. But let's say it is true... sending negative vibes towards plants stunts their growth. Would I say because it hasn't been explained *yet* that it must be a god that is responsible for the unexplained. No, i'd probably attribute it to Quantum Mechanics being affected by the observer:



"researchers at the Weizmann Institute of Science have now conducted a highly controlled experiment demonstrating how a beam of electrons is affected by the act of being observed. The experiment revealed that the greater the amount of "watching," the greater the observer's influence on what actually takes place.



When a quantum "observer" is watching Quantum mechanics states that particles can also behave as waves. This can be true for electrons at the submicron level, i.e., at distances measuring less than one micron, or one thousandth of a millimeter. When behaving as waves, they can simultaneously pass through several openings in a barrier and then meet again at the other side of the barrier. This "meeting" is known as interference.



Strange as it may sound, interference can only occur when no one is watching. Once an observer begins to watch the particles going through the openings, the picture changes dramatically: if a particle can be seen going through one opening, then it's clear it didn't go through another. In other words, when under observation, electrons are being "forced" to behave like particles and not like waves. Thus the mere act of observation affects the experimental findings."



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/199...



Again, apologize for the lengthy post. But basically, we have more control over our relatity through energy than we are currently capable of understanding.



As far as the 'milk does a body a good' well that is an advertisement claim by a corporation. Same as all those ads about eggs. Their claims are a little bias to say the least since their intentions are to sell their products. The truth is; like most everything else they have their benefits and detrimentalities.



Yes, science changes... it evolves. It expands on previous theories, that doesn't make the previous theories untrue. We just gain more knowledge and understanding them. Peer reviewed science is rarely ever disproven but they are considered 'theories' because... well I'll let Stephen Hawkings answer this one:



"Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory. As philosopher of science Karl Popper has emphasized, a good theory is characterized by the fact that it makes a number of predictions that could in principle be disproved or falsified by observation. Each time new experiments are observed to agree with the predictions the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, we have to abandon or modify the theory."



Science always leaves room for error, improvement and expansion. Science will never say this is 100% irrefuteable because scientists understand nothing is ever 100%, there are always exceptions.



Scientific knowledge is based on testable explanations, experiments, extenisive data collecting, controlled environmental relipications and must be proven many times over to produce the exact same results. It is much more than just a guess. Scientists don't sit around in a room and say: "I guess if I let go of this apple, it will drop to the floor because a higher power wills it to". That IS a guess. No, science will try to explain why the apple drops to the floor before arriving at a conclusion. They don't say, I guess it's because of gravity! They conduct experiments to explain how gravity works. What happens in the absence of gravity? Well, the apple floats. Is it a god willing the apple to float? no, it's gravity and here is a logical explanation of how it works.....



You cannot compare a guess at a higher power to a scientific prediction. That is why the theory creationism just doesn't fly in a science class as a alternate theory to evolution. One is based on a guess, a belief... the other is based on an extensive amount of observable data, controlled experimentation and logical explanations.



Whereas the conclusion of (for arguments sake) a Christian god is based on text written 1000s of years ago from unknown origins and has been translated and cherry picked 100s of times over. Hardly, reliable evidence.



And yes, human love, emotions and natural selection is much more complex than I was able to sum up in my lengthy post. There are plenty of logical explanations for why we experience love but ultimately it is beneficial for our species' survival.

http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/loves...

Amy - posted on 07/30/2011

i don't know, ever watch that myth buster show where someone said loving things to plants and another said hateful words to a plant. plant died that was being yelled at even though got same water/sun etc. Other one thrived.

There's something to that. I don't think true love and loving someone is the same as physical attraction to produce superior babies. How many people out there marry for "superior" sperm? We look for someone who connects with us emotionally and mentally. Not necessarily that guy who's hot stuff because he could be as dumb as dumb comes.

scientific knowledge changes - constantly. eggs are BAD, wait, no, it's the incredible edible egg. Milk BAD, wait, milk does a body good, wait, no cow milk is for baby cows. Just so much we think we know about the body and what it needs - it's all guessing. Science, religion, life, it's all a guess. No one knows. We have hope and trust. Trust that other scientists know what their doing, a hope for a life beyond this one or a hope to be with family again after death. A hope that it isn't all meaningless.

no worries about long posts. I just have 3 kids, am canning green beans from garden and freezing some peppers and...yeah. time's limited. :)

Jenni - posted on 07/30/2011

Love is considered to be an adaption of our species. Other animals experience primitive forms of love. The adaption enables us to care for our offspring or attract us to a superior mate to ensure the survival of our species though natural selection.



They don't arrive at a conclusion first. They experiment based on previous experiments and scientific knowledge. They know certain emotions can be 'tracked' in the human brain. That many of our emotions are caused by chemical reactions. These reactions can be observed. Pheromones are an example of why we prefer one potential mate over another. This can be observed in many species throughout the animal kingdom. It all ties in with natural selection.



and I am notorious for my long posts, I apologize. ;)

Amy - posted on 07/30/2011

yeah, the "church" is supposed to be a group of people, not a building turned into a business. and it is pretty arrogant on any religion's part to think they've interpreted texts 100% accurately. [oh, kaleigh, jehovah is actually god's name in the good ole kj version of the bible. it was considered a dishonor to actually speak such a sacred name, so they changed it to God.]

I think the reason so many people name the god they pray to is because..well, the devil is a god. said so in hte bible anyway. god of the earth - and he has his own angels too. [2 corinthians, i think 4:..something.] I wouldn't want to send a prayer out to anyone to catch and make a deal with the devil.

on the love thing - wow, huge post, don't have time to read will later. i think science is flawed though and brain chemistry is constantly changing. And we can guess at what it means, but don't know a hundred percent sure. it's as if we come up with a conclusion in science and THEN look for facts to support it.

Facts that show someone loves me: massage, food, drink...oh wait, they were tenderizing my muscles and feeding me to later cannibalize me. That's why I just say, I don't know it all, I trust that there is something greater out there than us and that's about where it's at.

Jenni - posted on 07/30/2011

Ahhh but see, we *are* a little different. So I'm probably somewhere in the middle of the scale between athiest and agnostic. I don't really believe in a higher power... I believe we can't prove there isn't. So I prefer to remain humble and say, I simply can't prove there isn't nor do I have any desire to prove there isn't.

I have never had issues with people believing in a higher power. Because it has no effect on me. The general sense of having faith, can be very beneficial for people.
But I do have issues with organized religion... because often times it does effect me. Views are pushed on me, negative assumptions are made about me because I don't believe, it is used to hide behind to suit people's personal agendas...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/30/2011

That is right on target with my thinking Jennifer. Who the hell am I to say there is no God? I feel there is something out there, but I cannot say what. I have moments of believing, and moments of disbelief. I have for a very long time, and I definitely lean more to the science side of things.

Jenni - posted on 07/30/2011

See, I could agree more with the posibility of intelligent design or a general 'higher power' than I could with any organized religious theory. That in itself can't be proven or unproven. But I find organized religious theories very improbable, personally. I find they are to touched by the hands of men. I find them to be full of human enlightenment and not that of an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing entity.



I like to say I'm an athiest because I want to distance myself as far away from organized religion as possible. But if I were to be completely honest with myself, I'd say I lean more towards being agnostic. I simply don't know, because it can't be proven one way or the other. But at the same time I feel the idea of a 'higher power' or intelligent entity that created us and cares about the choices we make her on earth, is a man-made idea or theory.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/30/2011

Good point Kaleigh. I really do not think one organized religion is correct. I have an issue with organized religions because if everyone really truly thought THEY were the only one true religion that new everything, then the rest of the world would be fucked.

Kaleigh - posted on 07/29/2011

if it was my kiddo I'd pray to every god I've heard of up till that point, God, Jesus, Buddah, Jehovah etc etc etc I'd just be like hey anybody? someone? Whoever it is calling the shots please help my child! But thats me I like to cover all my basis.

I'm weird though when I pray I don't pray to anyone in particular main reason why I'm not technically christian i don't pray like I'm writing a letter to jesus I just say what I'm thankful for I ask for what help/guidance I need and I direct it to whatever energy source/being thats gotten me this far because I know I didnt get this far without any help, what name that help goes by I don't know nor do I think it matters the main thing is I have faith in something and God is just the term I'm used to associating that something with.

Rosie - posted on 07/29/2011

no marina i wouldn't pray to the christian god. i would most certainly be begging something to help my child. what that would be i'm not sure, karma maybe? but not the christian god.

Jenni - posted on 07/29/2011

Ooops. Sorry guys, I must have missed that post that got deleted.



Amy, you can explain love with science and facts even though you can't see it (well you can see the chemical reactions to it).



"The theory of a chemical basis for love has been explored by such biological sciences as evolutionary psychology, evolutionary biology, anthropology and neuroscience. Specific chemical substances such as oxytocin are studied in the context of their roles in producing human experiences and behaviors that are associated with love."



"Since Darwin's time there have been similar speculations about the evolution of human interest in music also as a potential signaling system for attracting and judging the fitness of potential mates.[3] It has been suggested that the human capacity to experience love has been evolved as a signal to potential mates that the partner will be a good parent and be likely to help pass genes to future generations.[4]



Evolutionary theory also suggests that love keeps two people together, and this would help raise a child. For example, a man and a woman who love each other would be together and work together to raise a child. Back in the tribal days—when much of human evolution took place—it would probably require two people to successfully raise an offspring, and a mother with a supporting partner would probably have more surviving offspring than a mother who does not have such a partner. Thus, people with the ability to form love would produce more offspring than those without that ability. And these offspring would have the genes for love. Thus, the genes for love would become common, and that is why most people today have the ability to love."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_ba...



Of course at one point we couldn't understand or see the concept of a wireless phone and all your other examples. But there will never be a logical explanation for a god. If anything there will be a logical explanation for the energy that animates us, that created us. But in science, that conclusion will never be god.



Sometimes I feel that people use a higher power or a 'god' to explain things we don't understand. It is our human nature and thirst for knowledge to fill in the gaps of the unknown. At one time people believed the stars were the heavens, or gods, or angels.... now we know they are balls of gas burning light years away, like our sun.



We use science to explain the unexplainable. When we accept and substitute a god or higher power there is little room to evolve from that theory. Science allows explanation, evolution of our knowledge of our world.



I don't see how all these seemingly unexplanable concepts such as love.... can be explained through technological and scientific inventions, over and over again where once the explanation was simply a god did it... and yet, people still believe that 'one of these times' the answer will be 'god did it/created it." We will never arrive at that conclusion. The conclusion will always be a scientifically explaned one, it will never be a god breathed one. Science will never say: we can't find a scientific explanation for this.... it must be God!



We will continue to advance in scientific technology and for every former explanation of god as the manifestor of the unexplaned... we will replace with a concrete, scientific explanation and conclusion. Including the creation of the universe... quite diligently being hammered out and paved the way for explanation by Stephen Hawkings along with other workings of our universe.



Then it will just come down to whether or not the faithful chose to accept it (like evolution) and readjust their beliefs to include god in the theory. Or just flat-out deny it.



It just becomes grasping at straws to prove a god as a conscience, intelligent entity exists. It is something that will never be proven. And according to many religions it isn't meant to be proven... conveinently, imo.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/28/2011

Dyan, I want to address this "i know that if my kid was in a car accident or something and every bit of medical/scientific advise out there told me that he would not recover, i'd tell them they were full of shit and that my child WOULD get better. i would have faith in that."

If something so horrible DID happen, would you pray to God for your childs recovery? I would not be able to help myself, I would. I think you and I are very similiar in our stance on this subject....maybe I still have a bit of a spark left, but I am truly curious. Be honest. Would you pray to God for a recovery?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/28/2011

OOPS, caught up with the thread and saw that was explained.

I really REALLY try to see where everyone is coming from without insulting others and their beliefs. Just because I question, does not mean someones faith is invalid, or they came to that conclusion blindly.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/28/2011

Jennifer, the personal attack on me was deleted by another MOD, that is why you do not see it. Secondly, I understand what Hannah is saying, but completely disagree with what and how she is saying it. That is what I am debating.....or was.

Amy - posted on 07/28/2011

as far as knowing something bad will happen and not stopping it - hell, i know my daughter's going to fall on her face if she doesn't tie her shoes. doesn't mean she won't learn from it. she'll learn to tie her shoes. I may want her to be and do good, but she has free will. I don't know how to explain it and i probably can't. I always joke that in the beginning god, the original parent is going. no no, don't eat that apple, don't...sigh. you did. well, i still love you anyway, but told you no. have to face consequences.


i guess how i see it, you don't have to be a great intellectual to understand the wisdom from above. because all it really is - is love. you can't explain or see love, but it's there. can't base love on facts or science either really.

back to original, you know, as i go through life, i've learned that no matter how right i think i could be - i could still be wrong. hooray for learning and growing and changing perspectives. If i'm wrong and there's nothing. then oh well. tra la. if there is something. that's fine too. if i go to hell, i'm pretty sure i did what i'm there for! if i go to heaven, that'd be nice. hope there's coffee. if i get reincarnated, i'd like another life like this one.

Tah - posted on 07/28/2011

now i dont claim to know the bible frontwards and backwards...so forgive me for not knowing where exactly to find this particular text..but basically, mankind was doing so many rotten things that he gave us over to our sinful natures....yes he knows..yes he can stop it, him not doing so is a choice. thats what i believe. We as parents even warn our children of what their behavior will bring, we could probably do more to stop it, but dont always do that, i beleive it is similar to that, at least for me anyway..



No Dyan i can't see it..i think you expressed your beliefs and i didn't once beleive you were calling me stupid, it all depends on how you want to come across, and yes enough of that because its taking away from the thread..lol..i have had enough of those debates anyway..lol

Barbara - posted on 07/28/2011

Right, Diane. It really isn't a question of intelligence at all. It's all about the value you place in having faith, and your personal need to have a God in your life.

Barbara - posted on 07/28/2011

Tah, I have a question. You said "it is not God's intention that innocent victims and children have horrible things happen to them." From my understanding of the Christian faith, you also believe that God is omniscient, so he absolutely would know and have known beforehand about every single murder, rape, molestation, victimization of every kind that has ever and will ever take place. Yet, he's also supposed to be omnipotent as well, so he can stop bad things from happening but doesn't. And, how can he even be omniscient and also omnipotent? He intervenes in things he planned and made happen? I don't get this.

Rosie - posted on 07/28/2011

ok, enough about whether god exists or not, lol. do you understand how we can't express our beliefs without implying what you believe is stupid? basically we are in a catch 22.
it's not like i go up to people and tell them i think they're stupid. hell, i'm the only one in my family that isn't DEVOUTLY christian. i don't think they are stupid. i just use logic when dealing with the existance of god, they don't, they use their heart and faith.

Tah - posted on 07/28/2011

if you never hear of him, he doesn't hold you responsible..things have happened to me as well and they weren't all sunshine to roses, and he never said the road would be easy, so i dont expect it will be, as a matter of fact he said we would be laughed at and ridiculed and persecuted for believing in him..ahem...lol...i have a loving caring kind mother, but when i broke the rules, that were clearly stated to me, i was punished. Most of my hard life was through my own actions. Like my dad said. It is not God's intention that innocent victims and children have horrible things happen to them as far as rape and murder etc, but we have free will and are sinners. so if i decide to go shoot someone or rape someone, or stab someone, that was my sinful nature and my choice.

Krista - posted on 07/28/2011

I agree with Jennifer. Another word for intelligence is knowledge, right? So science is based upon what we know and what we can observe -- it's based upon intelligence. Faith is based upon NOT knowing something, but believing it with your whole heart.

And as far as "what if I'm wrong?" -- well, that's a moot point. We could all be wrong, as far as any of us know. The big answers out there could be something that no human being has even dreamed of.

I could be wrong about the Christian God. Or I could be wrong by not believing in Zeus. Or I could be wrong by not believing in Odin. Or I could be wrong by not believing in some as-of-yet unknown deity.

But it doesn't matter.

Because I can't force myself to believe in something that I just don't believe in, any more than a Christian can force herself to believe in Zeus.

Rosie - posted on 07/28/2011

tah, i don't think you're stupid for your beliefs. i personally think it's nice, to a degree, when someone has faith in something-in anything. i have faith in some things that i don't know exist. i know that if my kid was in a car accident or something and every bit of medical/scientific advise out there told me that he would not recover, i'd tell them they were full of shit and that my child WOULD get better. i would have faith in that.
HOWEVER, i know it makes no logical sense. and it's not a very smart thing to do, but i love my child (just as you love god) and want to believe in him (just as you would believe in god).

perhaps i'm jaded. my life hasn't always been the easiest. who i am and certain things in my life had made me believe that god doesn't exist. how could he let horrible things happen to me? how could he let horrible things happen to others? what about the poor people who live in the bush somewhere who have never had a chance to hear about him, are they just screwed? and don't even get me started on the contradictions in the bible, which was written by man, and changed to suit whatever purpose they felt necessary throughout the years.
the god i grew up believing in was a kind, loving god. growing up i find out he's the biggest prick out there. i don't WANT to believe in him anymore, even if i could fathom that there was a god. idk, i'm rambling now too....

Tah - posted on 07/28/2011

actually dyan...im not offended by you saying that there is no logic behind it..so now that we've answered that..lol..now..take today for instance..things were starting to get on my nerves...pain in my back and butt(literally.it hasn't healed fully..dont tell Barb) from me making myself a grueling, work schedule to get this done before the kids come back home and i start my classes back up..heck, ive been questioning being a nurse lately..but i do love it...trying to finish paying off these little nagging bills and sending letters to people you've paid off forcing people to update your credit..hair puller..lol...i look up and its time for the kids to go back to school in a minute and my 14 year old has a summer bootcamp for children who are going into the all AP academy at his high school and his dad called me and just his voice makes me itch...anywho...there were other things as well, family issues(not in my house, but sister etc)...so i had been praying and praying and praying and today..probably as i was deciding ipad or laptop and then logged on, i recieved a text message from husband letting me know that one of the things.. one of the more important things at this time..has come through...and i said Thank God..because i beleive it was him..now others may say its Karma since im such a lovely person..lol...or the worlds energy or what have you, and thats okay to me. Sometimes i look around and wonder how people can look at the beauty in the world and things that have yet to be explained, or have many different explanations can NOT come from God, but i never say they are stupid for their beliefs, or non-beliefs..i just say they beleive something different and don't have faith in what and who i do...

♏*PHOENIX*♏ - posted on 07/28/2011

Jennifer Tofflemire it was deleted thats why you dont see it all you see are the post before..not where she called her a name

Rosie - posted on 07/28/2011

this debate always gets to me, cause there is no way that i can express how *i* feel about religion without saying that i think it's illogical. what other explanation is there for a non believer? it just doesn't make sense to me that someone believes in something that there is no proof that exists. you don't believe in zues do you? you think it's ridiculous to actually believe he exists, otherwise you WOULD believe in him. same thing applies for non believers and the christian god. it's just ridiculous to us. you have to see that parallell and understand how we feel.

as for not being able to prove there isn't a god. of course i can't prove it. but can you prove there is no zues? now do you believe there is no zues, are you pretty damn sure there is no zues? now ask yourself do you think you have to prove there is no zues?

christianity is based off of faith. there is no logic at all behind it. none, zip zero zilch. how can one state that without a christian being offended? when one finds the answer to that question maybe this whole subject could be less accusatory. i'd like for that to happen, but i see no other way to express how i feel without saying it's illogical.

Amy - posted on 07/28/2011

Well, a long time ago it wasn't logical for a phone to be able to connect without a wire. there is nothing visible with a wireless, but we still know it's there and see it working. Guess that's what I feel about god. Can't see God, but I see good around me everywhere and though I don't see the entity causing the good, i know it exists. Not logical for a bee to be able to fly, but it does.

There are tons of unexplainable things out there. naga fireballs, weird lights in sky before earthquakes.

metaphysical stuff, ethical beliefs, beauty, and even science can't be proven. reminds me of quantum physics stuff. you believe something is a certain thing, therefor you see it as such.

and as far as intelligent, we are constantly gaining new information. At one time cocaine was used for teething babies, the moon was flat, the sun revolved around us, bleeding people "cured" illnesses...and those were considered intelligent folks talking about all that.

I guess point is, there are tons of things that either aren't proven, can't be proven, or we just don't have all the mathematical information to prove yet. You know those problems where the answer is "not enough info to get a solid answer"? It's like one of those.

That's where faith or belief comes from. not from what CAN be proven, but a trust it what cannot. We can't even prove time exists as we know it. heck the calendar hasn't always been the same. we change it.

there is no proof of existence, but no proof of nonexistence either. so....live and let live. no matter what you believe or how you came to the conclusion.