Going to court, inevitable...

Donna - posted on 10/06/2011

Well then it looks like there needs to be a new agreement made up. Im sure they will figure it out on their own. I only believe the courts should be involved if they cannot agree at all

Michele - posted on 10/02/2011

Definitely needs to go to court. If they have joint custody the father has a say on where the daughter locates too. If the mother can not prove to the court the move is in the best interest of the child (ie. the mother will be locating to a better job) the court will not allow her to relocate. The court will weigh the moving because "they want to" with the child's relationship with her father and his family to decide what is best for the child. I understand wanting to support ones child but if the move does happen and costs increase it might be in the father's best interest to allow a court to determine the support he should pay based on both parents incomes and the state legislation. Also since it is the mother choosing to move (if it happens) then she should be responsible for transportation and extra costs. My husband is in the military and was restationed out of his children's home state, the court ordered it was his responsbility for transportation and costs associated with transportation because it was his move and it was not fair to "punish" the other parent. I'm so sorry this stuff is transpiring.... My husband and I have spent more time in court over the past 5 years just so he can see his kids and be actively involved in their lives, I know the stress the uncertainity causes. I wish you all the best of luck. God Bless!

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Thanks for talking me through this Tah,
You have brought a lot to the table for us to consider. I feel a bit better having gotten this off my chest.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

*groan* sometimes I think my "I gotta do the right thing" attitude causes me more pain and suffering than it's worth. I wish my conscience would just shut the hell up sometimes.

Tah - posted on 09/21/2011

she better be glad he married you, other women would have called last week without the research..yeah thats extreme and would affect the baby....mediations got my vote..not that i get a vote..lol

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

That is part of the reason, he considered reporting her for fraud. That she would have to stay in the city while under investigation.



But I was doing some research on it... it is a very serious offence to fraud social assistance. It's considered a very serious offence because it's considered stealing from the public not some unseen, ambiguous entity.



It carries hefty sentences. 80% of cases result in jail time in addition to probation and repayment of this 'stolen' money for first time offences. As well as bans from future social assistance. If theft is over $5000 you are almost guarenteed to serve jailtime. Which I'm not sure how they calculate it in this situation but I imagine for the last 6-8 months her father and boyfriend have lived with her she would not qualify for social housing. She barely qualifies for assistance as she receives CSP and child tax benefits at the maximum amount. But the fact that she is receiving free services of housing when she possibly wasn't entitled to those services (in addition to other benefits) could put her around the $5000 mark. Not only would she be charged, but her father and boyfriend could be as welling for abetting welfare fraud.



The serious penalities of defrauding social assistance programs, in itself is suppose to be the deterent.



So it all sounds a bit vicious and evil imo.



Mediation *does* sound like a much better alternative to going there...... :/

Tah - posted on 09/21/2011

it is a huge adjustment and yes that is alot of time on the road, im blessed that my children are able to fly for free, but in the court order it says that he is to pick him up and drop him off so he would have to make the 5 hour trip here and back and has..i wouldn't be worried about his money for picking up my son id just tell him to take it out the 406 he doesn't pay me..lol.. but if it were Sydney's dad i wouldn't mind meeting him in washington d.c if he had to drive if he gave me enough notice because we don't usually have any problems. If he is paying 307 and 120 is not feasible then somethings got to give. Now, maybe a little nudge for her isn't out of the question..



"ya know Lisa, i was thinking we could just go to court and have all this worked out so that everything is fair and even and works out best for the baby". What we have isn't really binding and since we have joint custody anyway maybe we can just have the courts stamp put on it."...



Now one of the girls i work with had to come back from atlanta to va because the father went to court and the judge said she couldn't take the baby from va until everything was worked out...so maybe you guys just need something like that until everything is worked out and that may not need to involve a lawyer but again a mediator...

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Well, I must be psychic because I seem to have address all the issues in your post before reading it all! lol



Well, her boyfriend and dad who are currently living her are potheads. Another one of my obvious concerns. But I would fear involving the messiness of CAS. It just doesn't seem like an option and seems like an incredibly low blow and tactless. And what sort of reprocussions would it bring about for my SD?



We do have a more stable environment for her... and of course it is something to consider (to fight for custodial guardianship)... we are considering all options.



She does have a violent past and my husband believes she's bipolar or unstable mentally. But don't all men think that about their exes??? lol

She has been violent towards him when they were together. Which is one of the main reasons they broke up (after she tried to smash a beer bottle over his head). But no indications that she's violent towards their daughter.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Still here... He pays $307 in CSP payments. And yes, I totally get that... it's to pay for the bills, clothes, food etc. That it costs to raise a child. Frankly, I'm not one of those evil stepmoms who cares how she spends it as long as my SD's needs are met. ;)
The $120 is what it would cost in addition to child support to pick her up for visitations (and this is a one way trip). Bio claims her boyfriend will drive half way ($120 on their side). He doesn't currently have a car but is planning on getting one. Another one of my concerns, is if we are to rely on this 'unknown' for visitation. Is he going to afford a car that can handle the long trips? If they break up how will we afford the $240 it will cost to come pick her up and return her. If one our cars breaks down etc. The time this poor girl is going to have to spend on the road travelling (she's only 4). Just some of our concerns. But we have thought about, as you suggested earlier. The posibility of Summer vacations.

Now he currently sees her 14 days a month. If this is going to happen it would be *impossible* to even see her every other weekend. The most *any* of us (them and us) could possibly afford is one trip a month. So going from having her with us almost 50% of the time to 2 days a month. Most of which time will be spent on the road. Is a huge leap and a huge disruption.

Ok reading more of your post.....

Tah - posted on 09/21/2011

Kellie when i went to court for primary custody of my son which was just basically the same agreement we had verbally put into writing, the judge told me for a child to be taken from mom there would have to be some really outrageous things going on...drug use, obvious abuse..etc..that may have just been his take on it so it is worth a try, but Jenni will have to take into consideration the extra cost that comes with having the child in their home fulltime, but it also an option.

Kellie - posted on 09/21/2011

Why can't your husband gain primary custody? It sounds like your home is way more stable for a little girl and it makes sense (to me) that a child be with the more stable parent.

It sounds like everyone is losing except the BM, maybe it should be the BM losing..

Tah - posted on 09/21/2011

I had to go get the kids off so i didn't get to finish, there was just the last thing about the relationship..i don't want to discount it because it has only been 6 months because their are ladies here that have known their husbands for less time but are still together or married and going strong...i would hope for the children's sake she isn't flitting them all over after something that isn't solid. ...okay that was the continuation, just read your new post addressing that now..lol



Don't look at the 200 bucks as losing, look at it as him making sure his daughter has what she needs, be that food, clothes, electricity etc....maybe since she is trying to negotiate something like a move she may be willing to lessen the child support for awhile until you guys can get on your feet since she does spend so much time there.



If she moves so far away i don't think it will be feasible for you to get her as often but i don't think it's the quantity of time sometimes, it may be the quality, so if you guys had her during the summer, spring break and winter break, did things with her(which im sure you do now), and then stayed in contact via phone, skype etc, mail it could work. i know he will miss her and vice versa but she will know daddy and Jenni love her always. Again maybe the mom can agree that while she is with you guys for those summer months she doesn't receive the child support, something to consider, starting the week my daughter gets to philly that 250 bi-weekly stays with her dad..i don't go to the bank and withdraw it or transfer it out until august. i do half the second week of august(or the first august payment) so i can start her school shopping and then the 250 before she comes home which is usually around labor day, i take that to finish the school shopping and whatever else she will need to have when she gets home and we decided that together. also if he gets paid 3 times a month, he keeps that 250(it automatically goes into our shared account) because that would mean i got 750 a month instead of 500.



Another thing to consider is that she meet you guys halfway if you are determined to do the weekends. Another option is that maybe she stay with you guys for awhile until she gets herself established wherever she is going. There are other options to consider.

Now you have a point about the being pissed that she can sit on her hindparts while you guys struggle, i can sympathize with that and can see why it would leave a bitter taste in your mouth. Don't worry about it, get some sleep, you can only do what you can do and you being sleep deprived isn't going to help the situation, if it's going to be there in the morning you may as well face it after a good nights sleep...

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

I appreciate your posts Tah, don't get me wrong! Even though some of the stuff, I probably didn't want to hear so much. Guess I was just look for some "It'll be alright" or appeasing. I'm already feeling doom and gloom so I might have been a bit sensitive to your honesty. But I appreciate it none-the-less.



And you are correct, about me job hunting... and hopefully that works out sooner than later. Again, I'm just feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.



I do try to understand where she's coming from. I'm usually the one telling my husband... well... she does kind of have a point on (whatever subject) or I can see where she's coming from on this... but in this particular situation, I'm a bit mind boggled and all I hear coming from her is "me me me" and the fact that she hasn't seriously thought through the reprocussions of this.



Like I said, I would be much more understanding to her wanting to move under different pretenses than based on a 6 month relationship.



I did mention your suggestion for mediation to my husband and we will definitely consider it as an option. I didn't know that we had that option... hadn't thought on it yet.



And the reason I was going on about money is because it is a serious restraint in how often we will be able to see her. But I can see how not really knowing me, you might have got a different perception of the situation. Like I said, as is... we are losing $200 a month and have only survived this far because my husband was lucky enough to get tons of overtime last fall/winter and we were able to save a good chunk. In addition to me working at the time while I was pregnant with my daughter. That savings has run dry and is why I am now looking to return to work. So paying an extra $120 month as things are right now is rather impossible and I don't like to count my chickens...



Yeah, and I know he won't act on his frustrations. It was probably just a vent. I worry if he did, how that would affect his daughter. If her mom is cut off assistance or loses her social housing... I'm sure he's thought it through more while he was at work last night. I'll be talking to him again when he wakes up this afternoon.



And I'm not going to lie... it frustrates me to no end that someone can sit around all day and collect more than their fair share of assistance while others who work struggle to makes ends meet.



I appreciate your sound advice Tah, I am just in a bitter place right now. Up all night worrying about this. :/



I know things will work out, and we need the help of court to do that... it's just getting over the initial blow.

Tah - posted on 09/21/2011

Im numbering because i dont want to miss anything..lol..



1. Im not taking anything away from your love for her. I was addressing what you have addressed mosty in this, the money. I don't know her i guess i just always go from the standpoint of there are always 3 sides of a story...yours, hers and the truth because people are going to speak from their view...i know she may not be a rocket scientist and if she really thought she could make that drive there may be bigger issues here, but i couldn't assume she was a ditz off the bat...but you do know her.



2.. the job thing, i probably just had you confused, i have 4 communities and lots of jenni's sorry about that, i know one in one community was talking about just getting a job. I also figured when taking about the welfare fraud that it would come up wanting to report her and im sure he is speaking out of frustration.



3. Now having more info, if she is such a difficult person then go ahead and take it to court, i was trying to suggest things that worked for us and saved us money and court fees, but then im a horse of a different color and i encourage a good relationship with them and their fathers and me and their fathers..though the first is a douche...so that i have less headache and the kids are happy..if thats not possible with her, then you may need to take the next step. best wishes

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Yeah, he's always afraid that if he upsets her in any way she will disrupt his visitations. Which of course she has threatened to do many times.

The only reason he's paying full child support is because of what her social assistant worker suggested. Which of course, they tend to be a little bias in these situations. They'll want the father to pay as much as possible so she's entitled to less support from public funding.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

He's gained a different perspective now... and I'm not sure if it's such a good one. He's adopted the "people in glass houses..." adage. Maybe it's just his way of venting his frustrations. But he told me he wants to tip off city housing to her for fraud. :/

Jodi - posted on 09/21/2011

And I see where your husband is coming from - always just trying to keep the peace. My husband is the same. And sometimes, it backfires.

Jodi - posted on 09/21/2011

I think you will find that the status quo WILL count for something. I fail to see how she can consider that she has primary custody and can just make these decisions unless the court has awarded her primary custody? And if they haven't, I do think your husband has grounds on which to argue primary.

Jodi - posted on 09/21/2011

"what if they get up there and they break up."

That's exactly what would be concerning me. And then the next time and the next time. I'd be quite concerned if the stability just didn't seem to be there. 6 months is a very short time on which to make a decision not only to uproot your own life, but to drastically change the lives of others, including that of a child, for whom stability is so important.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Yes Erin, I'm pretty sure it is. That's why he needs to go to court! I've been telling him this for years but he hasn't listened until now!

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2011

Joanna- Ontario



Tah- I like that you have a different perspective of this. But I also don't think you're giving me enough credit. I knew what I was getting into when I entered this relationship (well at least to the best of my ability at the time). I know I may not have legal rights to my step daughter. I know she's isn't my bio... but I've raised the little girl as if she were my own since birth. So I have a lot of emotional investment in this as well.



I have never once complained when my own children and I had to go without. When she has gym memberships and buys new clothes for herself every month, new furniture on whim and brags about how much extra money she has and doesn't know where to spend it -- keep in mind we're talking about someone on welfare who has never worked a job in her life. While my husband struggles to support 5 people on a $40 000 income. I haven't complained... because I knew that's what I was getting myself into.



Yes of course, *when* I go back to work... it will help. But my prospects are bleak, with my limited available time to work ( I have to rely on family for childcare as I won't be able to afford daycare, or rather there'd be no point in me working because I'd pay just as much in transportation and childcare as I'd be earning).



But the thing of it is... this is obviously hard on us. Not just financially, but more so emotionally. And I'm sorry, but *why* if a mother plans on moving... should the father expect to pay even more to see his child. It's not his choice that she's moving. If my husband and I were to move. More than likely, it would be expected for him to pay all transportation fees to go see his daughter.



And I think you give *her* too much credit (on the brainwashing). lol This is the same girl who thought you could drive in a car from Canada to England. And who thought it seemed fair to give custody of their daughter to her family (people who have had their own children taken away from them) if she were to die, over my husband.



Like Jodi pointed out... if this was a serious relationship. I'm certain we'd be more understanding to her wanting to move. Honestly, we had all expected at some point one of us would move away from each other. We had always assumed if she did move it would be closer to where her family lives. Which is about an hour to hour and a half away.



Her reasons for moving to this other city, are superficial at best and based on a 6 month relationship she wants to uproot her daughter away from her father and *other* family. Infact, she has been planning this for the last 3 months. So when she first gave my husband the heads up on moving they had only been together for 3 months.



He'd (I would be) totally understanding if she were moving up there for a job. If she were marrying this guy, or they had been together for a substaincial amount of time.



Anyways, I *never* vent on here about anything else she does. Because frankly, I don't give a damn. And I knew I would have to encounter the *downside* of being with a man who has a child from a previous relationship. But I guess I didn't predict how emotionally invested in this I would become.



I know this isn't the end of the world. I know we will have to figure out a way to make do but I also think I am entitled to a good vent over this.



Jodi, Yes, I definitely would be more understanding if this wasn't on a whim. I just wonder (and I know this may or may not happen) but what if they get up there and they break up. She doesn't drive. So it will be *all* on my husband to manage transportation. Her boyfriend doesn't even currently have a car.



My husband works 12 hour shifts. So his work schedule is crammed into a few days. He works 5 days one week and 2 days the next. So he has lots of days off. The 14 days he has visitation he isn't working unless he's doing overtime.

Jodi - posted on 09/20/2011

That's why I think my husband's ex is pushing this way, to get more days. Once it dips below 52 days a year, it jumps significantly, almost double.

Erin - posted on 09/20/2011

Isn't child support based on the number of days of physical custody there? It is here. Which means the more you have her, the less you pay. Which is why some greedy bitches fight for sole custody. Sole custody = much more money than joint.

Jodi - posted on 09/20/2011

Aw, Jenn, I feel for you on this one, and totally understand where you are coming from. My husband's ex did much the same thing. He used to have his son 50% of the time, and then she decided to move. The difference, however, was that it was only about 2 1/2 hours away, so we were still able to make a workable alternative, AND she was MARRIED to the man she was following, and had been for some time, so it was probably more understandable. I can't see, for the life of me, that a six month old relationship should put a spanner in a relationship between father and daughter. Perhaps you'd be more understanding if there was a real long term commitment there, but 6 months is really not enough to determine the stability of a relationship on a long term basis.

The biggest reason my husband couldn't fight it, even though he practically had his son half the time, was that he worked, so would have to leave him with someone else during the days, whereas his mother didn't work, so therefore she would end up with primary custody anyway. Her lawyer pretty much argued that he could not work more than part time any time his son was in his custody, so that pretty much screwed him, and it was unwinnable.

We are facing another crossroad now, with his son aged 12, she has convinced him he should come here less because he is missing out on his social life by being here every other weekend......

So I totally get where you are coming from. I don't know how the law works there, but get yourself a good lawyer and see what he/she has to say. They will have experienced this before, and often they know the judges quite well (that's been my experience anyway) and the way the local court is likely to rule based on past cases.

Tah - posted on 09/20/2011

i doubt he has brainwashed her, she loves him and even if it was his idea they are in a relationship, if your husband wants to move chances are you are going. I don't know why you guys wouldn't be able to afford seeing her during the vacations if you can afford to see her monthly...o i almost forgot...this is the agreement i have with my children's fathers and during the summer months i allow them to keep the child support(well sydneys dad, cause my sons father doesn't pay his). Also you are looking at child support and visitation as if it's on the same playing field and the courts keep it seperate. They may or may not care that he sees her so much if she has full physical custody. Im sure you guys don't have to buy her clothes every month and i hope the coupon clipping and maybe buying value sizes will help. With both you guys working it may even out soon. 200 may be the amount he pays since he doesn't see her that often and it's actually a good rate imo i know i have a court order for 406 for my oldest and my daughter's father and I agreed upon 500 a month. I know you being the woman who is with him and having to sacrifice makes it hard but i guess this is probably how the new women in their lives see me..lol....

Firebird - posted on 09/20/2011

Which province are you in?

Jenni - posted on 09/20/2011

It's so much different here though. I'm pretty sure they only take issue with a move if it's out of province. And a province in Canada can be about 3-4X the size of your average State in the US.



We have entertained the idea of possibly having her during vacations and summer vacation. But I have no idea how we can afford this...



It's ludicris really... he should have gone to court along time ago and got everything official.



I mean he pretty much has joint custody of her. He provides for her and cares for her nearly as much as her mother. She has always 'pawned' her off on us since my SD was a NB so she could go out party. Even as a newborn she was with us almost 50% of the time. I don't understand how he can be expected to pay full CSP when it costs him to care for her needs when she's here. He has to buy her food when she's here half the month, he'd pay for her formula and diapers when she was here, he has to buy clothes for her for when she's here...



and after all this... he's probably just going to get screwed out of seeing her as often as he's use to and pay money in travel costs we can't afford, not to mention lawyer fees. He's done nothing but bend over backwards to keep her mom happy. He even said, if she was just moving 2 hours away... we could manage this.



She's going to be torn away from her brother and sister, all because her mom's boyfriend put this idea in her mom's head that she should move 4.5 hours away with him.

Katherine - posted on 09/20/2011

Father's are getting more and more rights, at least in the state I live in.

Jenni - posted on 09/20/2011

I know... I just hate the suspense. :(
And I need to stop reading legal advice on the internet. It just scares the pants off of me how little rights father's have.

Katherine - posted on 09/20/2011

OH! Gotcha now. Yeah, you're going to have to go to court....

What a leech.

Jenni - posted on 09/20/2011

No, her mom wants to move her. She's 4. Not my SD's boyfriend... her mom's boyfriend. My husband is very active in her life. We have her here 14 days out of the month. Have since she was 5 days old. Her mother wants to move 4.5 hours away for no other reason than her boyfriend of 6 months wants to move up there. And she expects my husband to cover the travel costs even though he pays her full CSP and we can't even afford that. We are roughly losing $200 a month as is. We barely get by... no extras here. Coupon clipping, cheap housing, etc.



She is on social assistance and has been frauding welfare for the past year now... and beyond (having her mom live at her social housing while she lived at her ex boyfriends and receiving rent in addition to benefits) not claiming that her father has lived with her for a year and pays her rent and her boyfriend for the past 6 months who also chips in. She receives free housing currently... aside from utilties which she pays in addition she receives welfare money, child support payments and child tax benefits at the maximum amount.



The only reason she can afford to make this move is because she has been frauding the system.

Katherine - posted on 09/20/2011

I sort of agree with Tah. Not necessarily about the moving part, but the child support and other things.
It seems weird that dad wants to move her because her BF is there.....how old is she?
If he wants to spend extra money let him. It's his loss. Even though it's unwise, he is responsible for his choices. If I'm understanding this correctly?

Tah - posted on 09/20/2011

you guys know me, i always have to be honest...i moved my children to virginia with my ex-fiancee(my daughters father) when my son was around 7. I didn't do it to spite his father i did it because i honestly thought Virginia was a better place to raise children and yes, the person I was in a relationship with and I were in agreement about it. I can see how it is hurtful and hard on your husband and you for this to happen, and i get the hardship. On the other hand i don't think someone should have to give up the opportunity to try and move and make a better life for themselves and their children because they aren't in a relationship with the childs father any longer. Maybe an arrangement like this would work out....she spends the summer, spring break and christmas break with you guys and if any special occasions arise you guys could meet in the middle. There is skype, snail mail, phone calls, etc in between those times, maybe get her a 10 dollar trac phone and keep minutes on it so she can talk to you guys whenever she/you like????..im just throwing things out there because i do think she has a right to be in an relationship and move forward with her life as he has with you. Also, let me tell you something, if his child support is not going through the courts it will be considered a gift, so be careful of that. Even if a social worker wrote it on golden paper it will not count no matter how many receipts he shows up with, so i would go do that right now, but if you can't afford a lawyer try to go thorugh mediation...

Stifler's - posted on 09/20/2011

That sucks! Why do people do this crap to their kids.

Rachel - posted on 09/20/2011

I would tell him to go to court and get everything court ordered. Some times it just has to be done.