Heated spanking debates

Mel - posted on 03/08/2011

I found it, finally cheers

Krista - posted on 03/08/2011

If you click on "My Communities", you'll be brought to a new screen that shows you all of the communities in which you're a member. You should then have the option, under each community, to click "Leave This Group".

Mel - posted on 03/08/2011

does anyone know how to leave groups, Im really stuck here Ive been trying to figure it out for at least 20 minutes...please help

Sneaky - posted on 03/06/2011

Donna - it was meant to be! I'm glad I heard of it when I did so I could tell you :o)

Georgia - posted on 03/05/2011

Tracey, I went to this workshop on Friday (on Aussie story pouches) and met this woman from the Red Cross. She told me that she leads a 1-2-3 Magic workshop once a week for four weeks... for FREE! They give you heaps of handouts, book and "other resources". I'm going along to that on Tuesday, so I'll let you know how I go. But she told me that there are actually HEAPS of free resources available for parents (not just on discipline) that most don't know about. Your local Community Centre usually has the info, or Mission Australia, or the Red Cross. This lady also runs a playgroup near me and said the mums are older (rather than teens/early 20s), so I'm going to give that a go too. I want to ask her about resources for treating PND. But I feel as though I hit the motherload at this workshop. I'm so glad I saw your comment about 1-2-3 Magic, the night before that workshop. It was obviously meant to be.



Oh, and she said that she's had a couple of families say that they saw dramatic, almost instant improvement once they started using it too. My kids don't need "dramatic improvement" just tweaking. And less frustration for me would be good too. So a HUGE thank you to you for opening that door for me!

Sneaky - posted on 03/04/2011

Donna, I have found the 1-2-3 Magic system works for me because instead of getting frustrated and yelling at my kids I take a deep breath and just say 'that's 1' and then I shut up :o) I find I end most days being WAY more relaxed because I haven't been yelling all day and my blood pressure is lower! It has worked for me also because yelling at the kids was the thing I most wanted to stop doing, and now I have an alternative that works.

I recommend the DVD, because at least in my house, it was way easier to get my husband to cuddle with me on the couch and watch it then to get him to sit and read a book.

Krista - posted on 03/03/2011

I agree with Tracey, Mandy. You have the right to raise your children however you choose (within reason, of course). Your father had the chance to raise HIS children. You have YOUR children, and if he doesn't like the way you're raising them, then it's none of his concern, as long as you're not endangering them (which you're not.) So he's being very manipulative and frankly, emotionally abusive towards you. I mean, boycotting your wedding because you won't raise YOUR kids the way HE wants you to raise them? That's very bullying, to my mind.

Stephanie - posted on 03/03/2011

I was talking about the 1-2-3 magic dvd being a wonderful tool. : ) It teaches ways to discipline your child without spanking or yelling, how to get them to act the way you want them to by positive encouragement. Alot of it is based on AP and reinforcing your bond with your child. I'll post more on it in a bit....just got a phone call from a 'melting down' bff. ; )

Georgia - posted on 03/03/2011

What is a wonderful tool? The 1-2-3- Magic DVD? What is it about?
I have a feeling your referring to time outs, rather than this DVD. I know about time outs, and rewarding good behaviour, and ignoring bad behaviour, and taking toys away, and redirection, and time in, and predictable consequences, and routine, and consistency. I also know what works and what doesn't, at least with my eldest until recently. I need something new, not the same old bollocks.

A smack (not spanking or hitting) is only used in this house for serious offences that could cause immediate harm. Not used very often because our boys are pretty good at calculating risk and don't intentionally try to hurt one another. But I have no problem with corporal punishment, as long as it's done in direct response to the behaviour, not out of emotion.

They used to use the cane on kids in schools here in Australia. up until the early 90s I believe. I'm not so sure I would be opposed to having it brought back. Current disciplinary measures aren't doing the trick and teachers (at least in many state schools) have no control in the classroom anymore. One good whack of the cane on the desk in example of what could be received would be enough of a deterrent for many errant kids.

I know that may sound strange coming out of someone who also believes in many AP methods and I believe it's because of those AP methods and the strict discipline that I have 2 very well mannered, intelligent boys. I suppose you could call me "tiger mum"... only I'm Japanese, not Chinese.

Stephanie - posted on 03/03/2011

Donna- It is a wonderful tool, as long as the parent is commited enough to utilize it and not want to do what may be 'easier' or a first instinct, such as hitting. Getting kids to behave takes work and you have to be commited to doing what's best for them, which certainly is not hitting. It's as much for changing the behavior of the parent as it is the child.

Georgia - posted on 03/03/2011

Tracey, I just looked at that link and it looks pretty good. What do you think of it? Has it worked?

I'm at my wit's end with W. He's the most bull headed 2 year old ever! Nothing works with him... smacking, time out, taking toys away... nothing that I've ever used anyway. S is 4 and definitely has his own opinion these days. He was so lovely until he started kindy. I'd love to find some new tricks, so if you think this 1-2-3 magic is... well, magic, I'd give it a go.

Melissa - posted on 03/02/2011

Ill buy that DVD straight after the wedding

Sneaky - posted on 03/02/2011

Oh, to answer the shopping trolley question (now that I read it!) you CAN put her in a time out in the shop - if she is already in the shopping cart you just pull over out of the way, tell her it is time out and turn your back on her for a few minutes (one per year of life).

If she was running around like a lunatic and you did not have a trolley, you could just stop, tell her it is time out and stand still, holding her hand but ignoring her for the time out time.

Or, if YOU need to get out of there (for instance, if you had a crowd and were uncomfortable doing a time out in front of them) you could always leave your trolley at the curtosy desk (tell them you are coming back!) and take her to the car for her time out.

Hope that helps :o)

Melissa - posted on 03/02/2011

oh I know. All the family are very unimpressed its dissapointing that he wont come to his own daughters wedding we yep learning to just get over it and hopefully the girls wont ask after him as they realise hes not around anymore, well the older one anyhow. Ill check out that site now

Sneaky - posted on 03/02/2011

Seriously Mandy, if your Dad is going to be that big a prick then you are better off without him!

I bought a DVD called 1-2-3-Magic, it uses time outs, but the counting really helps me focus instead of yelling or smacking. It has really helped me. If you are interested the website is:
http://www.parentshop.com.au

BTW, I think you are doing a GREAT job!

Melissa - posted on 03/02/2011

My kid actually ASKS to go in time out now lol. Not to mention shes alot worse behaved but we're persisting. I still hit sometimes when im mad but I could kick myself for it. I do explain Im sorry I hurt her. I also am no longer on speaking terms with my dad because I put her in a time out while he was at my house he said he was leaving if I did that because it is "American bullshit" which I completely disagree with as its done alot in Australia also, so now my dad is not coming to my wedding. But these things happen. Still glad we're working at it =)

Wendy - posted on 03/02/2011

I've found that a time out is way more effective with my strongwilled,tempermental 3 yr. old son, than a spanking that is over in a second(doesnt even phase him.) We tell our kids it is not okay to hit someone if they make you mad but if you make me mad I will spank you....that would be a little confusing message to give our kids. *just my opinion* :-)

Nikki - posted on 02/18/2011

We do short sprints up the quite isles then spin the trolley around in circles! People look at me as if I am insane at times lol

Krista - posted on 02/18/2011

@Nikki: yeah, we all have our tricks for keeping our kids entertained in the grocery store. If Sam is getting fussy or restless while sitting in the cart, I'll hunch over a bit and push the cart forward a little quickly, and then sort of yank it back again. Not hard, but just enough that he's sort of gently jerked back and forth. And every time he's hauled towards me, I gently bonk my forehead against his and look right in his eyes and go "Clonk! Cyclops baby!" (because looking at him from that close-up makes him look like a cyclops). Doing this about 6 times in a row gets him in a giggly, happy mood which usually buys me enough time to finish my shopping.



And it cheers me up too. :)

Katherine - posted on 02/18/2011

I always take a snack, sippy and a toy for Alyce or I'm screwed.

Nikki - posted on 02/18/2011

I would ignore it Mandy unless she is causing a big scene. Kids throw tantrums in supermarkets and most mothers will understand. You may get a few strange looks but unless she is really going off just ignore it and try and redirect her attention in a positive way.

For example, I go shopping prepared I take an easy snack, a drink and a toy. If Issy starts playing up I turn it around and offer her something to eat or play with, or I find something interesting in the supermarket for us to look at and talk about.

If she continued kicking the bad I would move it into the trolley.

Think about why she is playing up, is she tired, bored, upset, teething, has too much energy, too much stimulation etc. If you can take into consideration what kind of mood she is in and what her needs are you can plan to prepare and try and avoid negative behaviour. For example if you feel she is tired and you can wait to go shopping put her down for a rest first, if you feel she gets bored while in the trolley (as my daughter does) try and interact and involve her in the shopping, give her some books to read before she begins to play up. If you feel she is getting restless, do something else to take her attention, name body parts, tickle her, pull funny faces etc.

Stephanie - posted on 02/18/2011

Mandy- Are you under alot of stress in general? If you are, stop and ask your if she is really doing something that bad or if it's just super annoying bc you're under stress already and becoming easily aggrevated. This goes back to not taking out your own frustrations and built up anxiety on your children. It happens, yes, we are all guilty of it. But the important thing is to try to minimize it and recognize when you are stressed out from other things that are amplifying the child's bad or annoying behavior.
I would have taken a simple approach to that, too. Just move the bag and forget about it. Then let her know you love her and don't act upset over it bc she was probably continuing to do it to get a reaction. Maybe she just needed some individual attention.

Krista - posted on 02/18/2011

Ah, I see. Yes, that WOULD be annoying.

Yeah, I probably would have just said "no kicking" and moved the bag. Not sure if that's the RIGHT approach or not -- it's just what I would have done.

Melissa - posted on 02/18/2011

no just kicknig it into me. Made it a bit hard for me to push the trolley

Krista - posted on 02/18/2011

I probably would have said, "No kick!" and just moved the baby bag so that she couldn't reach it, either by carrying it over my shoulder or putting it somewhere else on the trolley.

And really, was she damaging the baby bag? Sometimes we have to differentiate -- is this behaviour BAD, or is it just annoying us? If it's the latter, then sometimes we have to ask ourselves, "Is she really hurting something, or is this more about me being tired or frustrated?"

Melissa - posted on 02/18/2011

so what do you guys do when your child is playing up at the shopping centre? You cant put them in time out. Mine was constantly kicking the baby bag which I hook onto the front of the trolley where she sits and I thought well I cant smack her so what do I do. I kept having to grab her legs and tell her to stop but it didnt work

Melissa - posted on 02/18/2011

I might have a play pen...Id have to check out back Ive got everything else. Daycare worker said the cot but she isnt in a cot anymore its her sisters now. Im surprised to read that Renae. I honestly for the first time today at the shops saw a lady with a tantrum throwing toddler who wanted a chocolate, not smack. She just yelled

Renae - posted on 02/18/2011

Ok I know I bailed out of this conversation a long time ago.. but I HAVE to say... I am from Perth too and in no way is smacking "the norm". Just felt I needed to defend my nice but isolated and small city! I dont know anyone who smacks, noone in my playgroup smacks and I rarely ever see it out at the shops or park or whatever.

Ok bailing again, just had to stick up for poor old Perth! :)

Krista - posted on 02/18/2011

Mandy, do you have a playpen? That would be a good place for time-outs, if you don't want to put her in your room or hers. You can tuck it in a quiet corner of the living room or the kitchen.

Nikki - posted on 02/17/2011

Thank you, wasn't the best of times but fully recovered now which is a good feeling.

Melissa - posted on 02/17/2011

yeah we have races sometimes cause Ive seen otehr families do that, with th eating. And Im not concerned as I know its just normal toddler behaviour. My daughter has a history of feeding problems and had to be force fed her bottles as a baby , I knowabout feeding problems and aversions in babys/toddlers. She eats more then most toddlers Im around. Sorry you went through that. Cant imagine going thru eating disorders

Nikki - posted on 02/17/2011

I am really happy that you are trying Mandy, you really will see benefits in the long run. As far as the eating goes, I am of the belief not to force feed children. From my personal experience I was force fed and had a negative association with food. During my teenage years and early 20's I suffered with bulimia, I know there were other contributing factors but I also think my negative image of eating health food was a factor.

Because of the problems I have had I put a lot of thought into feeding my daughter. I really don't feed her any junk at all, unless it is a very special occasion. I have learnt to be very creative with healthy foods, I cut shapes out of fruit, she eats vegetable ravioli, I can't think of more examples right now... But my biggest tool to ensure she is eating enough is to use lots of positive encouragement. There are times I feel like making her eat because I know she won't sleep if she doesn't but I don't want to turn meal times into a negative event. So I make it as fun as I can. Lots of praise, clapping hands and singing, telling her it's yummy and letting her feed some to me tends to work.

Positive reinforcement is one of the most useful tools for discipline, children love attention and they will do anything to get it, if they get attention for bad behaviour they will continue with it, so turn it around. Be over the top eccentric and joyful when praising her positive behaviour, even the little things. Clap sing, jump up and down, cuddles and dancing all work really well. Then if she does something negative, deal with it quickly and quietly, lower your voice with a stern tone and then move on. Eventually she will learn to seek positive attention rather than negative.

In positive behaviour strategies - Solutions without smacking there is a post pinned to the top of the conversation board called something like positive behaviours at home (I can't remember the exact title, but it has home in it) it has some great info, so have a look.

Good luck

Melissa - posted on 02/17/2011

I did join it and have read loots of the threads on there. I dropped my daughter at daycare this morning and I did watch her she disciplines them too, wanted to see the right ways. I see she speaks to them and explains when they do something wrong as I do and Ive seen her use timeout as well although its also hard for her to get them to stay in time out I guess because she runs a business. I will definately try putting her in her or our room. her room has a million toys and ours has all the wedding stuff eek. Will see what works best. Thanks for sharing that Krista that is really interesting. I have memories to but none that majorly stick out I think everythings just the same to me

Stephanie - posted on 02/17/2011

Mandy- I'm so happy to hear (read) that!!! You are doing the right thing and have also made someone on the other side of the earth very happy and relieved! ; ) You can message me anytime, too. Did you join the positive behavior strategies community? It's a great resource for learning ways to deal with your children without hitting. This might sound weird but I am so proud of you!!! ***Big, Big Hugs to You & Your Babies*** ♥

This is the link to the positive parenting community:

http://www.circleofmoms.com/positive-beh...

Krista - posted on 02/17/2011

Mandy, I want to share an experience with you. When I was a little kid, I was over at my best friend's house. He had a younger sister. Their mom had to run some errands so she got her next-door neighbour to come watch us. Well, we kids (who were about 4 at the time) were misbehaving, running all over the place, knocking stuff over, and just being generally rowdy.

So, she sent Jennifer and Jason (can you tell I grew up in the 1970's?) to their rooms. She sent me to their parents' room.

I tell you, that is the most effective punishment I ever received. I was in this boring grown-ups' room for 10 whole minutes. No TV, no toys, no interesting books...I was bored out of my freaking MIND!!!

The fact that I remember this punishment 32 years later is pretty telling. And I bear no resentment towards the sitter. In fact, I'm grateful, because she gave me one hell of a great tool in my future disciplinary toolbox! LOL!

And you can't go back and change what's happened, Mandy. It's like any other habit we have to break, whether it's smacking or smoking -- every minute is a new opportunity to make the right choice. And instead of acting impulsively when we're frustrated or tired, just make yourself count to 5, breathe, and act with deliberation and consciousness. It WILL get easier, because the new actions will eventually become second nature.

I felt like a right idiot the first time I tried Dr. Karp's methods with my son. It felt so weird and fake and I had no idea if it was working. But now it's just second nature. And I really do think it is working. I hear a lot of parents talking about their 18-month olds and the awful tantrums they throw, and I just don't experience that at all with Sam. And I think it's because I try to keep his needs in mind. If we're out shopping, and I can tell he's getting tired, I don't push for "one more store and then we're done." It's not worth it. And if he does get pissed off or sad, I acknowledge it. I know that if I'm really angry, and someone tries to distract me or make me laugh, in order to try to cheer me up, it just makes me even angrier, because it makes me feel like they're brushing off how I feel. So why would I do the same thing with my son?

Melissa - posted on 02/17/2011

I think your right Stephanie. These posts definately have a major affect on me. Made me think. Do I want my child to go through what I did as a teenager I know most teens are depressed or suicidal at one point but I want to give her a chance not to be. A chance to be happy. I want her to forget that Ive used it as often as I have. When hubby ws yelling at her earlier she seemed to think he was going to hit justbecause he was yelling. I know I didnt abuse her or anything and that I dont hurt her when I do it but I do wish I could go back and use it alo less often. Just on those rare occasions. She did eat alot the next meal when she missed that one. I know she wont starve herself. thanks Ill come here when I need help. I do apprecitae it very much

Stephanie - posted on 02/16/2011

Mandy- Maybe she just wasn't hungry and didn't want food. There's nothing wrong with that. Everything she does doesnt have to be a discipline issue. I promise you, when she gets hungry enough she will eat! Plus, there are plenty of other ways to get the same amount of nutrients so it isnt hurting her to skip it at that moment. It's hard getting veggies into my kids so I hide them in food they like. I give then "Fruitables" juice box drink which gives one serving of fruit and one serving of vegetables daily allowance per tiny box that they drink. Easy! Also, you can puree fruit in a blender or by hand and mix it with oatmeal for breakfast, I puree vegetables and mix with ground beef to make a meat loaf rather than just using meat and tomato, there are tons of ways to get what she needs into her. Toddlers by nature are picky eaters and often skip meals. One day they may eat next to nothing and then the next day they make up for it. It's completely normal behavior. Give her some room to be a toddler and not take so much control. Everything doesn't have to be a "do as i say and do it now" situation. Relax and a little bit and you'll both be alot happier. By the way, I am a pediatric nurse, RN, BSN. I have alot of experience with babies and toddlers. Children who are hit by their parents tend to not do as well in school and have slower social development as opposed to children who are not hit. It makes a child insecure and detached. They grow up with humility and lack of confidence, are more likely to develop a depression problem, drugs and alcohol problems and more likely to commit violent crimes as adults. Hitting your child has serious side effects that are detrimental to your child's development and their quality of life as an adult. She may look fine now but when she becomes an teen and adult the scars will emerge.

Nothing good comes out of hitting. Nothing. Ever.



EDIT TO ADD:

Studies show a higher suicide rate among people who were hit as children as opposed to ones who were not.

Sneaky - posted on 02/16/2011

Mandy, I always put them in their room if I am thinking straight - they don't have any toys in there it is strictly for sleeping, so they hate being put to bed in the middle of the day! And I don't call it time out, I just tell them that it's bed time because they did something naughty.

Just lately I feel like I have gotten into this terrible smacking habit where it is easier to just give them a swat on the bottom than to actually have to discipline them :o( I can only keep promising myself and the universe that I am working on it!!!!

P.S. Thanks Krista for the 123 Magic book info - I knew that there was a parenting course available, I didn't know you could buy the book! I ordered the whole pack with the DVD as well today - I am looking forward to NOT being the scary mummy any more!!!!! Wish me luck!

Melissa - posted on 02/16/2011

I can relate Tracey! I think putting her in her room would actually work better. Now my kid is asking for time out. Think she thinks its a game. Im gonna try putting her in her room.

Sneaky - posted on 02/16/2011

My two year old stepped on the babies hand the other day - on purpose but not to hurt, just curious to see what would happen I think. So I yell "no!', I rush down the hall and I am about to grab her when I remember that I am trying not to smack her anymore. Instead i picked her up, told her it was naughty to step on the baby, put her on her bed and left shutting the door behind me. She cried for two minutes in her room then I let her out, asked her to apologise to the baby and we went on with our day like nothing had happened.
I was so proud of myself!!!!!

And then yesterday I gave her a quick smack on the bottom because she didn't get into her car seat fast enough for me - and then I just wanted to beat my head against the side of the car. Seriously, she is two. TWO. How fast do i expect i her to move (especially when she is busy looking at stuff) ? I didn't smack my husband when he was taking just as long to get in the car and was frustrating me. Why would I not give my baby girl, who I love more than life itself, exactly the same respect I give other adults? This is doing my head in :o(

Melissa - posted on 02/16/2011

um since not smacking she has refused to eat her fruit, which isnt good for her. When I smacked she would eat it in a heartbeat. Now She just sits there stuffing around making a mess. I did put her in timeout for 3 minutes she sat there and it didnt faze her and she went back to the table and still didnt eat. How is this helping her? Yesterday she sat at the table from morning tea tim e to lunch time then since she was still there I took the morning tea away (it was fruit hence the reaso she woudlnt eat it) and just gave her, her lunch

Stephanie - posted on 02/16/2011

Nikki is very right. That is great advice. One of the most important things is to stop and think before you act. I am not super-mom and my kids aren't perfect little angels every single minute of the day so there have been times when I was out of patience and times when I felt like giving a smack...but I got a hold of myself and didn't act in anger. Sometimes mommies need a time out, too. Step away and take some deep breathes until you feel like you've calmed down, splash water on your face, walk outside, anything to keep you from acting in anger or frustration. Do whatever it takes to *not hit* until you have broken the automatic response of hitting. You sound like you really do want to change this and I really commend you for taking this step. You won't be sorry. And please, come back and talk to us about it. We want to help you, not just condemn and argue.

Nikki - posted on 02/16/2011

It is hard Mandy, I am completely and utterly against smacking, I was also not smacked as a child but there are still times where I have had the urge to in the spur of the moment when I am angry. So don't beat yourself up about that. I think that you stated something really important that you have to think about it when she misbehaves. Thinking discipline through clearly is so important, it gives you the time to ensure you are acting appropriately and consistently. The best thing I ever learnt was to pick my battles, in a group of 24 children if I went off about every little annoying thing I would be going off all day. So I decided to ignore behaviours unless they were hurting someone or something, or in a dangerous position. Just because as parents we find a behaviour annoying or irritating doesn't mean it is bad, children explore and get into things they shouldn't because they are developing and learning. Another good point is to take a good look at your home, are there things she gets into that she shouldn't? if so move them out of her reach. Good luck with it all.

Melissa - posted on 02/16/2011

ok no I didnt smack because they encourage it they actually dont believe in it personally 9except a smack on the hand ) I just thought there was alot of people there at the time and that I guess it was just easier I dont know. Anyway we've still only done the corner thing once she hasnt needed it since. Honestly I think shes actually in line because she might think I am going to smack I dont know but I count to 3 and definately by 3 she has done what shes been asked so hence the reason I have no had to put her in timeout again yet. Its actually a real challange not to smack and something I have to think about when she misbehaves and rmemember not to do it

Stephanie - posted on 02/16/2011

I think it's really funny how moms who choose to hit their kids are just fine with assaulting a helpless child but can't handle opposition in an online debate between moms. You baby smackers sure are some braves ones. ; )

Anna - posted on 02/16/2011

Krista you are comparing two totally different ends. Spanking your child on the butt or the hand is not the same as burning your child dont try and pick a fight. Seriously youve stated your opinion move on already.

Krista - posted on 02/16/2011

@Anna: "I do not discriminate against those who chose other methods of discipline as I expect others to respect my choice and decisions as a parent."

Good to know. So if some mother chooses to burn her kid's arms with cigarettes as a way to discipline him, you're just peachy-keen with that?

Stephanie - posted on 02/16/2011

Like Ive said before, I do respect other people's parenting styles and choices but when their version of "parenting" involves hitting their child that takes it into a conpletely different arena. That isn't worthy of respect.

Stifler's - posted on 02/16/2011

here's what annoys me about "let's not judge others parenting styles"... why? just because they think it's right and it "works for them" does that really mean we can't question it?

Charlie - posted on 02/16/2011

My issue is one persons choice ( right ) to spank is violating the childs rights to bodily integrity .

Your rights end where theirs begin , children are human beings and should enjoy the same rights as anyone else for the same reason you wouldn't spank an adult for doing something you deemed wrong .