Discipline vs. Punishment?

Amanda - posted on 03/08/2010

I read a book titled: "Life with Toddlers" by Michelle Smith. I was looking for something because my sister-in-law was telling me how she was having issues with her (then) 16 month-old daughter being belligerent and I wanted to find a way to encourage her towards positive discipline vs. the negative, physical stuff (which she tends to lean towards). She wasn't interested, but I inhaled it and have been really looking forward to the toddler years -- my daughter is 11 mos old and we've only just begun!
One of the ways I've been encouraged that this is the way to go is the way I helped my daughter realize that biting isn't okay -- especially while nursing! She is a horrible biter, especially now that she's got 5 teeth and more on the way! When she's cutting teeth, she chews on everything. So, when it started happening during nursing sessions, I knew we had to figure something out to nip that in the bud ASAP. I asked around and most of the advice I received was to flick her in the cheek (this came from a Mom who says she follows the AP methods, which shocked me) or to slap her hand. My husband and I discussed it and both of us felt we needed to figure something else out because the recommendations were horrendous in our opinions. Instead, we decided that when she bites I'd promptly remove her from the breast and firmly tell her, "No biting," before setting her on the floor to take a 1 minute break to play with some toys or read a book. Then, I'd bring her back and we'd start all over again. It took us one day of doing this during pretty much every nursing session for her to understand that biting Mommy wasn't okay. That was a victory moment for me! :)
My daughter has always been independent, strong-willed and is a ball of energy (we knew she was going to be an instant runner when she was still in the womb)! The tips in the book I mentioned above are working well so far. The biggest thing is just being in tune with your kid and aware of what's going on. It's amazing how something so simple is so easily overlooked! :)
My biggest issue is not laughing when my daughter does something she knows she's not supposed to be doing. The look she gives me when she flashes her big, beautiful smile makes it so doggone hard to not laugh (or even smile)! She never wins, but it's also never without both of us giggling some during the discipline process (which is just distraction at this point). Giggles are better than tears, that's for sure!! :)

Kate - posted on 03/08/2010

I know every child is different, but I have 2 friends who both have kids that just turned two. the one has a little girl who she smacks and shouts ot all the time. The little girl doesn't listen to her at all and is really awfully behaved to the point that I'm afraid she'll hurt my 7 month old baby when we visit.

The other friend has a little boy and when he does things that aren't appropriate his mom tells him nicely and if he doesn't listen she takes him to his room and explains to him what he has done wrong and leaves him in his cot for a few minutes. One time he pushed my baby over for the second time, not in a nasty way, just to see what would happen. His mom explained to him in his room that he can't do this and when he came out he said "sorry lilliam" (can't say william) and was really gentle with him after that.

Teh difference between the two kids is amazing and I'm sure partly due to their personality but seems to me it has a lot to do with their relationship with their mom. I'm learning a lot about the type of parent I want to be when my little boy is older. Right now he is such a joy and we are so close. the time for teaching him right from wrong is still a way off



and by the way, just knowing that there are innocent babies out the who are left to CIO makes me want to cry. I don't think crying is normal and healthy. when I have cried I've been left with a blocked nose, a headache, and sometimes the next day my whole face aches. I'll do what I have to do to save my baby from the fear and discomfort. that's what mom's are for

Nawaal - posted on 02/10/2010

I totally agree with Meg...recently my 20 month old daughter was bitten at school by a 17 month old - twice in one week and quite severly on her nose. I discovered the parents of the child had been reprimanding her and shouting at her for biting. My daughter this week then bit another child in her class in retaliation. I took her home and both my husband and I explained to her that mouths are used for eating not biting. We reinforce it a number of times and say if she bites it causes pain to another child. Unfortunately because of her negative experience at school she learnt that biting was acceptable. I know this is a phase. But hitting her or punishing children for lazy parents-positive reinforcement and spending time with a child is the best way to teach them appropriate behaviour!

Kim - posted on 01/30/2010

Hi Meg,

My six month old slept 12 hours during the night on two occasions this week. He has been waking up at least once a night since about 4 months - I always either nurse him or rock him back to sleep. He also takes three naps at least an hour in length each day. I have never used CIO - if he cries, I find out what he needs and tend to it. He has reflux so he was extremely fussy the first four months of his life - I remained patient. Of course, it's too early yet to discipline him.

I've heard people brag about their success with Ferber and CIO and I can't imagine doing that to my child. What a way to tell your kid their needs aren't important. I kind of feel like posting my success on a mainstream board but don't really want to deal with the cat fight it might create. :)

Erynne - posted on 12/30/2009

We use Unconditional Parenting. To us, it seems to flow naturally from being a Montessori/Waldorf family. We aren't managing a child; we're temporary caretakers of an adult. We treat him with respect and don't try to manipulate him.

Of course, he is only 9mos right now, so we've not had any HUGE clashes (other than diaper changes) but I don't anticipate our parenting style changing hugely.

http://www.unconditionalparenting.com/UP...

- E

Emily - posted on 12/27/2009

I totally agree.. I am really appalled at some of the moms on this site who think hitting/kicking/biting, etc. are okay to do to their kids!

In our house, I try to use natural consequences as much as possible. For example, you make the mess, you clean it up. As adults we have natural consequences all the time for our own behavior.. it shouldn't be any different for our kids. There are times when I use time-out for flat-out defiance, but those times are few and far between. Discipline to me is more like teaching than anything. I also think modeling good behavior of ourselves is critical. My almost-3-year-old is a very well-behaved and loving child. I have to think it has something to do with how he is raised.

Casey - posted on 12/20/2009

I couldn't read all of these but it's just amazing if you don't hit your child your not disciplining them. I worked for school's as a teacher aid and also did 2 yrs of my teaching degree. If I could get children that weren't mine to behave without hitting them why should I hit mine? I find positive reinforcement, and positive directions (when a child is running if you shout don't run it has little effect however if you call out walk in a firm voice instant results), also let the child know what you expect from the outset. There's more but I think most of you have covered them already, Smacking to me is unintelligent parenting, one size never fits all, taking the time to know your child and what works for them takes more effort but has better results.

Amy - posted on 11/02/2009

I want to be clear that my statement was in response to the initial statement by Meg and that I am a state mandated reporter and have been since receiving my degree in Social Work several years back. The case in which I reported an incident was when I saw a mother drag her 6 yr old child through the parking lot and slapped her in the face.

Amy - posted on 11/02/2009

What, that is insane and in my opinion abusive. I think that modeling good behavior, listening to your child and using time out appropriately has worked wonders. If you follow through when you say if you do that again you will sit in time out in my opinion everything will fall into place. I have used this method for years on many children. I have never had a big discipline problem. I believe in having fun, redirecting and being firm. As long as they know you are in charge and they are the child and everyone is treated with respect and dignity you should have a wonderful child. Parents who hit, bite or inflict any mental or physical abuse on their child should be reported to the Child Protection Agency in my opinion. And I am not ashamed to add that I have reported people in the past who I saw strike their child.

Anna - posted on 10/22/2009

Now we believe in discipline and setting boundaries, but we also allow our boys to figure somethings out on their own. I was at a friends house a couple weeks ago and i found it upsetting that they barely hold their children. They said they are teaching their children independance. I'm sorry what they were doing was not that, their sons are around the same age as my boys, and her youngest son is a month older than mine (4 months) Now I had my boys in their play room and was holding my youngest watching my oldest play with the other kids. She had her son alone in his crib in the other room screaming on the top of his lungs. (Now they did just find out he had acid reflux and had to switch formula and get meds for him, but he's been fine since they switched everything) her husband told her to take care of their youngest, which she looks at him and says "what should I do? There is nothing wrong with him, he's fed, he's changed, there's nothing I can do" i'm just sitting there shaking my head screaming in my head, why don't you just hold him? I've asked before and all they say is we're teaching them independance! Shortly put, we didn't stay long, it just kept upsetting me that she was more worried about the other company she had and the party she was throwing for her odlest boy, than making sure her youngest is set. He was probably teething and needed something for his gums, or mabye just maybe interaction from his parents? Now my youngest and I are attatched at the hip so to say, I'm always making him happy. I'm so blessed to have wonderful sons, and I tink they way we handle them is what makes them good. We never deny our children, and we always try to think of ways to teach them. Like my oldest is almost 2 (in dec) and he already knows all of his body parts, most of his alphabet, (like i'll say a, he'll say b) he's starting to form sentences and so smart. My youngest is 17lbs at 4 months and already rolling around and scooching (spl?) himself. Now my oldest i'll tell him twice sometimes 3 times and if he still isn't listening i'll pop him on the butt once and sit him down. (it doesn't hurt him, it doesn't phase him) he's more upset at the fact I sit him down and tell him no. enough times of sitting him down and telling hi and not allowing him to move for a good couple of min. he gets the idea. We're just constantly showing him things and being positive in every way. The other day was so cute I picked up all his toys and went into the kicthen a couple min. later I hear him clapping and saying "I did it" "I did it" I just clapped with him and said good job. lol. he helped. also since my boys are a year and six months apart he's acted out in jealousy of the new baby. Blaine has thrown books at his younger brother, hit him, kicked him, thrown balls and all kinds of things, also tries smothering him with a blanket. Which we change our tones, tell him no, smack his hand and sit him down. once he's done throwing his fit, we bring him over to lennox and tell him to say he's sorry and give kisses. Mainly we just tell him that's not nice and to directly say sorry and give kisses. Only in extreme cases do we actually pop him. And I say pop lightly, b/c I look down upon smacking or hitting my child badly. just light enough so he knows what he did wrong. Yes he's almost 2, but he is smart and he knows what he is doing! maybe not the full logic, like throwing a ball behind the couch and then getting upset bout his lost ball, but in he knows he's putting his ball into a new place and wants to see what happens. If he spills something we just say "uh oh spagettios" and clean it up. Or if it's nasty say "ewww" and clean it up. it's cute cause now blaine comes up to us with whatever on his hand and says "ewww" or sees us changing a dirty diaper of his brother and he says "ewww" or sees his brother drool and says "ewww" it's cute and funny but picked it up from us! They like are sponges and obsorb what we do. Our son is amazing, only whines when something is truly wrong and we can take him out wherever we want to and he won't throw a fit. like out to eat, he sits still in his high chair, and only gets roudy towards the end of the meal when he's done, hinting, body language saying "ok lets go play we're done". I also took 3 years of american sign language in high school and i've been teaching my sons. These 2's don't seem to be so terrible b/c we can communicate thru signs. Blaine started this whining thing when he wanted something "uh uh uh" I would just calmy say "how do you ask? he would continue "uh uh uh" and pointing. I would say "Please" and do the sign for please, once he did the sign did I give him what he wanted, or say please. After he said and signed please would I then say "now what do you say? and told him and signed "thank you" this was a long process just daily calmy saying this to EVERYTHING he wanted. if he threw a fit I let him, just calmy sitting there and waited for him to say please, even if he didn't sign it I gave it to him. He learned quickly okay I say please I get that. we started this months ago and now if he wants something he comes straight up (like if we're eating and he wanst a bite) and the first thing he does is stand in front of us and sign please, once I hand it to him he says and signs "thank you" sometimes he does both at the same time. lol like please? thank you and then takes his prize and runs away. just patience and love and attention and affection is all they need!

Pia - posted on 10/13/2009

It is really refreshing to read posts about women who actually think of solutions (other than hitting) to help their child stop misbehaving!

In other communities, I've noticed that lots of women recommend spanking as a solution, I personally am not comfortable with this and I could never hit my son. As someone else mentioned above, their justifications just don't make sense to me either. I'm sorry, but hitting your child to make them "respect you" does not make sense to me. I wouldn't respect anyone hitting me, so how could I expect my child to!

It's really comforting to know that when my son gets older I will be able to come on here and ask advice from people who have had success with other methods and won't try and convince me that violence is the best way to discipline my son. So thank you!! I feel a lot more confident asking advice on COM now!!

Autumn - posted on 09/27/2009

I think a fabulous way to do that would be first of all to let them play with water supervised by you whenever you can- get them in their swimsuits and fill up the bathtub (or a wading pool outside if you have one and it's warm enough), put some towels down, and give them cups, pots, pans, shovels, whatever and let them get messy. It will probably help them get some of it out of their system- toddlers need sensory things like water, so you just have to make sure you reiterate every time you do it that "this is where we play with water, in the bathtub, when mommy is watching" and when they splash water and dump it in the tub as opposed to on the floor give them plenty of praise. this approach will probably take a little while to keep them from making messes on their own, so if you have the means it might be a good idea to put up baby gates or child locks on the bathroom doors and kitchen so they can't get to the water in the first place. you could also tell them that if they get into the toilet or sink when they are playing by themselves then they don't get to play in the tub that day, but make sure the main point of all of it is that "we play with water in the bathtub/pool".

Kelly - posted on 09/25/2009

Hello, I too agree that punishment is NOT the answer. Having said that I have two little ones that have a hard time following certain rules and always have. One example is my kids if given the opportunity will get into any water source in the house and fill things up with it and make a big mess. We have a two story house and they play upstairs in their rooms alot. It does not take more than 5-10 minutes of not being watched while im putting the baby down for nap or taking the dog out and they have made a mess with water, sometimes water from the toilet uuhhhgggg. What can I do to help them see this is not good? Any and all considerate replies or suggestions welcome. Thx in advance =) Kelly

Danielle - posted on 08/14/2009

we use time out as a cool off period in our house. we implement all the strategies above as well, but my son can be a very intense, almost 3 year old sometimes. he needs the room to scream and kick without getting into trouble, and 2 minutes to cool off in his room does the trick. it makes sure that neither of us loses it with each other. i follow up the cool off period with a face to face talk about what happened, why, and what he can do next time instead. this is working very well for us. :)

Joanne - posted on 07/12/2009

Lisa, I love that you are tuning in to your kids and realizing that the behavior is trying to communicate something and giving them the words. What does time out teach?

Lisa - posted on 06/27/2009

I am a part of the moms of multiples group - and one lady said her twins spent their whole month of being 15 months old in a time out. I thought "then time out is probably not working, and that is way too young to start punishing." I've heard that time outs don't really teach (and the word discipline is from the word disciple or "to teach" - or something), and I love the Dr. Sears Discipline Book. Mostly its about knowing your child and helping them make the right decisions, so they feel right.



Plus, babies have a need to explore and their brains aren't ready yet to have the self-discipline to remember to listen to your rules about not throwing food on the floor, for instance. They just want to see how gravity works, and that throwing a cheerio makes a different sound than a grape when it hits the floor. The best way to deal with this, I've learned, is to watch your baby closely (my twins are 21 months old now), and look for cues for when they are about to throw the food (or whatever - about to take a toy, etc...) then I jump in and teach them - "food is for eating", are you all done with this? Would you like a different food now?" OR "I see you want that same toy as your sister - lets go find that toy's twin (or a similar toy, and I take the child away that is about to "swipe" her sister's toy). Also, I make it fun, like now we say "Swiper no swiping" (from Dora the explorer show) when some one is about to swipe

Joanne - posted on 06/07/2009

I just keep reminding myself that I am raising my children to be ADULTS who will make good decisions and be kind to others, not obedient chldren who follow my will. I was on a discussion board recently where I was torn apart by some very cruel people who made fun of me for not believing in punishing my children. I can't help but worry for the humiliation their children must endure.

Tricia - posted on 06/02/2009

Autumn, that's it! You're looking to instill SELF-discipline. By the time they are 13, you can't physically remove them to a time out when they throw a fit, and when they're 19 and off at university, you don't have any say in their day-to-day behaviors. So our job is to teach our children how to control themselves. And that includes gently teaching and re-teaching the appropriate behaviors in a wide variety of nuanced situations (i.e. you are encouraged to scream and yell at a football game, but you should do so in a museum. Or you are welcome to have a baby when you are married, you should not do so when you are 14.)

Meg - posted on 05/31/2009

Amen Autumn! Its so encouraging to hear this. You made my day and you will make your daughter's LIFE! How lucky she is to have you :) Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

Autumn - posted on 05/31/2009

When I went through training to teach toddlers at a daycare center, we were told to replace any thoughts we had of discipline with the word "guidance" instead- after all, the point is not to punish children for "being bad", it's to teach them why what they're doing is wrong and what they can do instead. It frustrates me so much when I see parents that expect their 2 year olds to know what appropriate behavior is and when to use it- come on, when they're born they don't even know their arms and legs are attached to their body! My daughter is only 2 weeks old so I can't really contribute to this from a parenting standpoint, but as a teacher I always made sure that if a child misbehaved, we had a conversation about it, and came up with ideas together of better ways to handle the situation. I always felt great about it in the end because I know it was a learning experience for the child and I was teaching them problem-solving skills and self-control skills that they would remember and could apply to other situations.

Meg - posted on 05/29/2009

I keep reccommending this book over and over again but its just so amazing.





Discipline without Distress by Judy Arnall

http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Without...

Esther - posted on 05/29/2009

I completely agree. I'm very much in favor of discipline and boundaries and think that is essential to a child's well being. But it has to be discipline, not revenge or corporal punishment, and it has to be age appropriate. My son is only 17 months old right now so our parenting at this point still pretty much consists of distraction and disaster avoidance - haha. I expect to start using time-outs when he is about 2.

Meg - posted on 05/29/2009

Thank you Kylie! Your story is so heartwarming! I needed to know that there are mom's like you out there!

Kylie - posted on 05/29/2009

I know Meg, I can't believe it either. I've noticed many of these mothers saying the reason there are so many problems in society nowadays is because children are not being spanked enough. ergh..
I know from experience there are many ways to teach children respect and to give them boundaries that don't involve corporal punishments or children left to cry until they spew. I don't want my children to walk all over me and think they run the show but I also don’t want them to fear me and feel worried or confused when I discipline them.
Children are sponges they learn what they live.
I think its important to be able to read your child’s mood, my 4 yr old tends to start bouncing off the walls and playing up when she is hungry or tired or has had too much sugary, preservative packed food. When she is misbehaving and I know she’s grumpy and tired I prefer to ignore her bad behavior and just work on staying calm and getting her fed and into bed ASAP.I started using the time out method with her at around three years of age. I get down on her level and look her in the eyes so she knows I mean business. Recently I make sure I remind her that she has a choice to behave. If I ask her to stop her naughty behavior and she continues I give her one warning e.g. "you can stop whining and use your nice voice OR you can continue making that noise and mummy will put you in you room. It's YOUR choice". I find about half the time she will choose to stop and comply but some of the time she goes to her room. I wouldn’t say it’s always a gentle approach because occasionally I will have to pick her up kicking and screaming and she will have a tantrum in her room. I pop my head in after 4 mins and tell her when she is calm she can come out and talk to me nicely. This always works and she comes out a different girl, we have cuddles and move on.
My parents were “smackers” and my Mum yelled at us kids daily. I think this left me feeling kind of inferior because I could never get my feelings or opinions heard as I was always yelled over or smacked down. This style of parenting resulted in me lacking self confidence as a young adult and feeling like I didn’t have much to offer to adult conversation or friendships. I’ve had plenty of counseling and I love my parents and I think they did the best they could with what they knew at the time. I have learnt from them so I make it a point to always listen and acknowledge what my child has to say even when she is protesting the rules. If she feels understood she is less likely to throw a tantrum.
When we have a good day (which there have been plenty of lately) i always tell her daddy about it a the dinner table in the evenings and we thank her for making me a such a happy mummy. Clear and consistent boundaries, encouraging desirable behavior and fair, predictable consequences is what makes a happy, respectful child.

Melissa - posted on 05/28/2009

I use 123 magic it works great its effective discipline from children 2 - 12