Wanted to share

Crystal - posted on 02/10/2009 ( 15 moms have responded )

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This was not taken well in another thread, because apparently it's too against everyone's beliefs in there and how dare I tell them they are wrong, and besides, it's Jan Hunt telling it not me. In another thread I was attacked because I was apparently the only one who doesn't believe in spanking, and then was accused of not raising my kids from the bible because of it because the bible says "spare the rod, spoil the child".

Well the bible doesn't say it, some satirical novelist wrote a poem that it says it in and the poem and most of his novels were apparently about ending child abuse. I find it ironic that people who say that are unaware of this. Plus the fact that they are quoting scripture that isn't even scripture.

So I found this article, and since I would like someone to read it, because I found it so interesting I thought I'd post it here, where it would probably get a little more understanding.

This was the part I found most interesting and enlightening.

4. The phrase "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is not from the Bible but from Samuel Butler's "Hudibras", a 17th Century satirical poem. The poem, like his novel, The Way of All Flesh, was written to expose and denounce violence against children.

While the "rod" is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. The book of Proverbs is attributed to Solomon, an extremely cruel man whose harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomon's Proverbs. By contrast, the writings in the Gospels, the most important books in the Bible for Christians, contain the teachings of Jesus Christ, who urged mercy, forgiveness, humility, and non-violence. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.3

So apparently the love and acceptance I give my child is God sanctioned, which I already knew because I just couldn't imagine God wanting me to hit my kids in any way.

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Brenda - posted on 02/13/2009

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It is very nice to see some people that truely believe in their faith the way it is prescribed.  I, though not specific to a partincular faith, applaud that in you guys.  :)  True Christians are wonderful people, its the ones that aren't that are no fun to be aroud....  I guess one thing is being able to accept critism without becoming defensive.  See, this is why I like the group.  Open minded women just seem to understand Attachment parenting....whether their faithful or not!

Crystal - posted on 02/12/2009

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lol don't let that poor 3 month old baby manipulate you.

Now my 14 month old on the other hand has just started throwing tantrums. Usually when I tell him not now on nursing.

Ashley - posted on 02/12/2009

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I revise my statement then.
DD just hasn't done anything...yet, I can tell she's going to unleash the spitfire on me any day, though.
I guess I've said "no, ouch!" a few times when she's grabbed at the boob she's not nursing on--especially if I'm topless, she has tiny claws!

Crystal - posted on 02/12/2009

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Yea i don't know, i've actually heard mothers say that babies are capable of manipulation at 3 months old.

Tricia - posted on 02/12/2009

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Ashley, I don't know about that!  My DS is 1 month, and I've already had to say "no biting!"  :-)

Ashley - posted on 02/11/2009

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Quoting Stasia:


As a firm non believer (sorry) I am horrified of the blind faith that teaches to hate



You don't have to apologize for being a non believer! (I'm one too.)



 



This has been really informative, thanks for sharing your research! I'll have to keep it in mind in the future if this sort of debate comes up, since we all know how much everyone else loves to tell us how to parent. DD is only 4.5 months old, so we clearly haven't needed to discipline her yet (she's really not exactly capable of doing anything "wrong" yet, is she?) but one day down the line...

Crystal - posted on 02/11/2009

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Exactly, but so many parents seem to be taking it as a literal rod, and refuse to see it as any different!

That's how I see the rod also, and nothing will convince me otherwise, especially between saying children do need discipline but then Jesus says to love everyone and treat them as you yourself would want to be treated. Well I certainly wouldn't want to be "spanked" every time I made a mistake.

Tricia - posted on 02/11/2009

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Let's try to use the actual Bible in this discussion: Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."



OK, what is "the rod" being used for in this passage?  It doesn't really say, so lets look at historical context.  Who uses rods?  Shepheards certainly do.  Everone has heard that bit from the 23rd Psalm: "thy rod and the staff they comfort me."  What is the rod being used for in that context?  Certainly not abuse, because that wouldn't be very comforting.  The rod is for guiding the sheep.  Not beating them: leading them.



Back to our key verse: our kids obviously aren't sheep, so what is this rod business about?  Well the second part of the proverb makes that pretty clear.  We're talking about loving discipline.  Even the most extreme attatchment parents believe in discipline.  We teach our children.  We correct them when the do wrong ("Hands aren't for hitting" sound familiar?)  We encourage them to do right.  We stop dangerous behaviors before they hurt themselves or other people.



We all agree then: part of loving your children is disciplining them.  That "rod" is important for all parents.  Only we're using it to lovingly guide, the way the Bible actually says.  :-)

Amie - posted on 02/11/2009

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Crystal, its so refreshing to meet a true Christian! I, myself, have struggled often with the closemindedness in our community and agree wholeheartedly. The bible tells me that it is my job to love God's children; it is between God and each sinner in what way they will pay for their sins. I include myself in that, because to sin is to be human.

I already knew about the poem and the "missing" bible verse, but I'm glad to see that others do as well, I never have understood why the bible would tell us to love others, treat them with respect, and hit our kids. (**grin**)

Thanks for spreading the "real" word!

Crystal - posted on 02/10/2009

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I'm Christian and I will not condemn someone for their life choices. I can't tell you that I believe people who are gay will go to heaven, because that's between them and God and I won't choose what God Himself will do. I also practice love and tolerance. We're all equal in God's eyes, black, white, gay, straight, adult, child, everyone and that means we should treat everyone with love and respect and the way that Jesus treated everyone.

Back home in FL (I'm living in Tn now and will be in Ga in May) I have a home church I love because they don't (well most) judge. We're all human so we all judge at some point, but as long as you're trying not I think that's what matters.

I was just horrified that people could believe that it's okay to hit little children.

Brenda the verse that people are talking about is this one: Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable".

This does not mean we should condemn them because Jesus later says "love your neighbor as yourself". So while we shouldn't practice homosexuality in our own lives, we should love those who are. That's what I get from my Bible anyways, but in the Christian board I'm apparently understanding the Bible wrong.

Brenda - posted on 02/10/2009

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Quoting Stasia:

There are so many different interpretations of what the bible "really" means. I once got screamed at in a heated debate over gay rights. He was religious and his only sentence was "they don't deserve to breathe" and "god says its wrong"

I asked him why then others preach that god is merciful, and god loves ALL of his children, so why would he endorse violence between them. He actually pulled out a bible (pocket sized) and told me to show him where exactly it says god teaches equality, mercy and peace.

As a firm non believer (sorry) I am horrified of the blind faith that teaches to hate



I'm with you on the blind faith thing!!  I've looked at so many religions over my school career, and philosophies and I think that spirituality is a good thing, and even religion can be good, but unquestioning faith leads to the problems you have with specific churches.  I guess I appreicate the religion, but usually not the church its run from...because men mess up God's (Allah, whichever belief you go for) intent.



It is amazing what fanaticism can do to people.  And I'd just like to see people actually practice what they try to preach...  Love is great, folks, now can you share some?  I myself consider myself a religious mutt, not ascribing to one faith, but taking from many to improve my life.  And questioning all!

Brenda - posted on 02/10/2009

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It does not surprise me.  Not to start any sort of religious debate or anything, just to show you where I come from, I've done a lot of religious studies and the like and I find that some people, when shown when their beliefs are wrong even according to their own religion, they take great offense. 



I love it because you're supposed to be a member of a religion of love, but you're supposed to beat the crap out of your kid when they do wrong and put tons of conditionals on love. 



 I'm still looking for that anti gay/lesbian quote in the Bible everyone talks about and can't point out....

Stasia - posted on 02/10/2009

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There are so many different interpretations of what the bible "really" means. I once got screamed at in a heated debate over gay rights. He was religious and his only sentence was "they don't deserve to breathe" and "god says its wrong"

I asked him why then others preach that god is merciful, and god loves ALL of his children, so why would he endorse violence between them. He actually pulled out a bible (pocket sized) and told me to show him where exactly it says god teaches equality, mercy and peace.

As a firm non believer (sorry) I am horrified of the blind faith that teaches to hate

Crystal - posted on 02/10/2009

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I am very surprised also and I'm still getting flamed for my beliefs and even more so for researching into it. Apparently that is something I'm not allowed to do. I'm appalled that so many people think it's okay to spank, and even use God as an excuse when it so clearly is not sanctioned by the Bible.

Sharon - posted on 02/10/2009

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I want to say that it is surprising to me to learn that people are hitting their children in the name of God, but then again, we routinely kill eachother in the name of God.  This is just one of the scary things that comes along with religion- accepting a harmful belief without questioning it. 



 



Our society is filled with violence.  How are we going to stop the cycle if we teach our children that our hands are for hitting others? 



 



Let me go a step further and ask everyone why one of the first things a young male baby experiences is to have a part of his body sliced off.  (As an RN I call tell you that sometimes it is without any anesthetic.)  "Welcome to the world, now let us hurt you."  It's definitely not the message I'm choosing to give to my children.  In case anyone is interested in visiting a wonderful website- http://www.nocirc.org/

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