Conservatives...the Christian party???

Sara - posted on 03/22/2010

Everything Joy said plus, I don't want a president that's going to "mirror what Christ said". It's not his job to be my spiritual leader, you go to church for that.

JL - posted on 03/22/2010

Ummm..Obama does not come from an upper class background. He does come from meager means. His mother worked her ass off while going to school fulltime to provide for her kids. His grandparents provided care and assistance because his mother was trying to make ends meet as a single mom before she died. Obama worked his ass off to move himself up and go to an Ivy league school and he used financial aid to help him attend those schools. He has since paid off those loans and right after he graduated he gave back to the community by doing community work and organizing people living in downgraded poor areas. I am sure if you asked him we would give you the ivy league shirt off his back that he worked his ass off and earned if you really needed it.





Unlike Bush he didn't get into an Ivy league school because of who his daddy was or because of who he knew. Obama had the grades, intellect and determination. He paid for his education through scholarships and graduated at the top of his class. Intellectualism and education should be honored and upheld in this nation seeing how educationally and intellectually we rank low in comparison to other free advanced western nations. We are producing generations of anti-intellectuals who have no clue what critical thinking skills are and how to use them. Idiocracy in the making.





Separation of church and state.

Diane - posted on 03/20/2010

Does our leader give the shirt off his Ivy league back? Has he ever lived in poverty? Do his ideals even suggest he is Christian, he is pro-abortion for crying out loud. Does he take the Great Commission seriously? Does any Christian politician take it seriously? Christ COMMANDED us to spread the gospel, it was not a little suggestion. How do Obamas policies, mirror what Christ said?

Yolanda - posted on 02/24/2010

wow i'm not even going to get in on this because i really want to have a good time on the forum tonight.....

Janessa - posted on 02/24/2010

I read many of your comments and i disagree with those who are republicans period. I am from canada by the way and i love my health care i am sure it can be better but i would never change it for an american one maybe a european one :).

Rachael - posted on 06/08/2009

Oh no, please don't take it that way--you didn't at all. :-) Your post was a nice reminder that I did have to post the rules on some of the threads that went out of hand. Thank you for that.

Peyton - posted on 06/08/2009

I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend.

Rachael - posted on 06/08/2009

Well have fun and good luck. But on that note I would like to take the time and remind everyone of the group's guidelines:


1. Be respectful of others' opinions, even when you disagree.
2. No slurs, stereotyping, or hate speech.
3. No threats or personal attacks.
4. Don't annoy others by posting the same thing again and again within the same group or across multiple groups.
5. Keep advertisements and solicitations to designated forums.

Peyton - posted on 06/08/2009

I'm new to this group and I have to say this thread is extremely disappointing. Almost none of these posts look like they were posted by Christian women. This looks like it's a conversation that took place on the middle school playground. I'm going to join the political debating moms group and I hope some of those conversations are a bit more civilized.

Sherry - posted on 06/01/2009

I find most conservatives that are against universal health care never lost their jobs and had to pay an astronomical amount of money for COBRA. Back in 1994 I had to pay $460 a month for cobra on my unemployment benefits. Pay rent or get health insurance, so I let it lapse. For the last 5 yrs my hmo has ran me (because I am self employed) around $430 a month. I sell Real Estate, need I say more. I would welcome a system that would make it more affordable for those of us that are uninsured or under insured thru no fault of our own. Why can't I be covered under the same plan that our public officials benefit from? I hope the conservatives on this site never have to walk a mile in my or others in the same boat shoes and need major surgery, medicine $200 a month, or have sick children and make a little over the guidelines for medical benefits. I can assure u, you will be singing a different tune.

Sara - posted on 06/01/2009

Haha! Joy is right! We need you guys over there! :)

JL - posted on 05/31/2009

I do feel like this forum is for supporters of Obama and the debating should be left to the political debating moms community. So Obama Mamas if you want to continue to debate the issues and facts please come on over to the political debating moms commmunity. Me and the few other liberals who are over there are totally outnumbered by the conservative biblical Christians.

Kristin - posted on 05/31/2009

Quoting Evelyn:

Ok Traci, would you like a direct response? Go away, you are a troll, a pest, a parasite. No-one wants you here, go sip on your haterade w/all the other republicans on your forum. I choose not to debate with you because like I said in my first post...you are simply not worth the time nor the effort. I'm trying to talk around you to the other ladies in here, but you must find me quite intoxicating because you simply cannot leave well enough alone. Be gone with you.

On another note...Amy, please feel free to stay in this group, at some point the trolls will move on and harass someone else.

LOVE IT!!!!!

Vanessa - posted on 05/31/2009

I thought this was for supporters of President Obama?

Dawn - posted on 05/27/2009

Quoting Sara:

We are not all Obama automatons with no independent thoughts of our own here.

If you would like an example of an Obama program that is good and why, how about the Foreclosure Prevention Progrram? Currenlty, 11% of mortgages in this country are deliquent or in foreclosure, so helping people to avoid forclosure will help to bolster our economy and stabalize the current housing crisis.

Here's how it works:

If you are currently in deliquency or foreclosure, you provide your most recent tax return and two pay stubs, as well as an "affidavit of financial hardship" to qualify for the $75 billion loan modification program, which runs through 2012. Borrowers are only allowed to have their loans modified once, and the program only applies for loans made on Jan. 1 2009 or earlier. Up to 4 million borrowers are expected to qualify. Mortgages for single-family properties that are worth more than $729,750 are excluded.

Separately, up to 5 million borrowers who have mortgages held by government controlled mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be eligible to refinance through June 2010.

I'm sure you'll find something wrong with this program, but regulations need to be put on the housing industry and people need help so they don't lose their homes. That's a huge step in helping to stabilize the current economic crisis, in my humble, liberal and apparently automatous opinion.

On a side note, do you actually know anyone that lives in Europe and has real experience with the health care systems over there? How exactly have you come to the conclusion that UHC is crap? I'm not saying that I think it will work here, but I certainly don't think that the systems over there are shit.

I do have a friend that is working really hard and have tried everything including the program the Obama has put together and has not been able to get their home out of forcloser. I've also have heard of others who have had the same problem so its not the saving grace for all folks. Which is sad since her husband works really hard and keeps getting layed off and she works for the boys and girls club of american and that doesn't pay for much.  I blame Clinton for starting this mess. His admid started the practice of bad loans and Bush for not putting a stop to it and Obama for not stopping these bad loans yet.

As for UHC, I have over a dozen of friends from the UK and they all say the same thing on how bad it is.  What needs to be done is instead of making it where we all have no say in our health care system, the gov needs to get a program for the people who can not afford insurance and also get tough with the insurance companies that make it hard for folks to get insurance. I've worked for over 15yrs for the insurance companies and they do make it hard for folks. Another issue is if Walmart can give you meds for $4 why can't all pharmacys do it. Most drug makers are charging a high price to pay for the ads and I believe to get their meds rush thru the FDA.

Thats my 2 cents

Traci - posted on 05/26/2009

Nobody's beggin', Toots. I am merely stating my opinions, get over yourself. It doesn't matter to me if you respond or not, but, if you do, then naturally, I'll reply. Does that make sense to you? And I'm the simple one! oh boy...



You can stop responding now...

Evelyn - posted on 05/26/2009

Well you have been begging for me to respond directly to you, and since I'm feeling a bit charitable today, I decided to take pity on you and do so. If you were paying attention...which I know it probably tough for you w/all the Limbaughism's floating around ur conservative little head...I said I would not waste my time on political debates w/you o' simple one. Ok, now I'm done with you. Go away.

Traci - posted on 05/26/2009

Aw...you are too much.



If I am not worth the time and the effort, than quit referring to me. Sound simple enough for you?

If you don't like what I write, than quit reading it! Nobody is forcing ya.

There is nothing intoxicating about you...there we go with the narcissism again. tsk tsk!

I'll go sip my haterade just as you keep on sipping your KoolAid ;0)



Enjoy!

Evelyn - posted on 05/26/2009

Ok Traci, would you like a direct response? Go away, you are a troll, a pest, a parasite. No-one wants you here, go sip on your haterade w/all the other republicans on your forum. I choose not to debate with you because like I said in my first post...you are simply not worth the time nor the effort. I'm trying to talk around you to the other ladies in here, but you must find me quite intoxicating because you simply cannot leave well enough alone. Be gone with you.

On another note...Amy, please feel free to stay in this group, at some point the trolls will move on and harass someone else.

Amy - posted on 05/26/2009

Look Traci, et all. This is getting kind of ridiculous. I was really looking for a place to commisserate with my fellow liberals, not have someone come in here stirring the pot. Everyone appreciates a good debate from time to time, but in a forum called "Obama Mamas" I think the prevailing idea is to have some discussion among liberals about the policies the current administration is cooking up. I suppose what I'm trying to say and what a few others have insinuated is that this conversation is going in circles, on both sides. We're beating a dead horse on the really divisive issues (e.g. abortion) liberals and conservatives don't see eye to eye on. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, and I'll just leave Obama Mamas, but that's the understanding I had when I was joining this community.

Traci - posted on 05/26/2009

LOL You are so witty...at least you seem to think you are. We would take our convos over there, but cetain people must be a little intimidated, other wise they would have been there already. As soon as certain people quit referring to me either by name or by your passive aggressive little quips I will leave for good. I'm not going to let people just sit there and talk all their stuff with out responding, sorry. If you don't like it, quit responding :) Notice you never have any actual facts, just cute little condescending comments (didn't you just equate condescention with bitchiness? Hey, you said it, Toots!), such a comedian!



So, according to your logic, because somebody doesn't agree with you and have strong convictions, they are unreasonable? Who are you to say what is reasonable? How wonderfully narcissistic of you.



There's nothing like dodging a question like Obama did during the Rick Warren forum, don't you think? When asked when life begins Obama said that's above his pay grade. Obama has a successful mastery of the dodge, as do all politicians. They are all the same, what Palin did is nothing new.



I'm curious, if you are so against war, what do you suspect we should have done after 9/11? Just do what Clinton did-bomb a couple of empty campsites and call it a day? If you are against war, do you think we should have left Afghanistan alone? Just trying to understand your logic. Maybe we should have just turned the other cheek when Japan bombed us at Pearl Harbor. War is necessary. Whatever you think about Iraq, there are instances where war is the only solution. Look at how well sanctions are working in North Korea. Maybe we should just talk to them some more. Kim Jong Il seems like a completely reasonable man, don't you think? When we invaded Iraq EVERYBODY thought they had WMD, including other intelligence agencies, not only our own. Hindsight is 20/20.



Abortions are not necessary, however. When you've got women aborting because they wanted a boy but are having a girl, that is not necessary. When you've got women aborting because they are "not ready to have a baby", that is not necessary. Most abortions are done because they aren't "ready" for a baby. Women will always have abortions, sure. But when it is legal people tend to think it is okay and more abortions happen then. It has become a form of birth control and that is wrong. The only thing legalizing abortion does is to make women irresponsible.

Evelyn - posted on 05/26/2009

As I continue to read over some of the “discussions” on a few of the threads, I have noticed a trend that I refer to as the republican “duck and dodge”. It’s always been a prevalent practice of many conservatives I’ve observed over the years. They always seem to duck the issue and move on to another subject. It was glaringly apparent especially during the election. Palin was so apt at the duck and dodge I was thinking maybe she should have gone into boxing! Think back to the VP debate….if you could even call it that. For as many direct questions asked of her…how many did she actually answer? Biden hit them dead on…even when it seemed he didn’t have a lock tight handle on it, he answered it as best as he could. The deer caught in headlights, oh, excuse me…I mean Palin..referred to energy so many times I wanted to throw my coffee at the television. Here is a quote from Palin during the VP debate…..

… Palin demonstrated a knack for answering the question she wanted to answer—not the one that was asked. At one point, Ifill asked Palin to respond to a comment by Sen. Biden on health care. “I would like to respond about the tax increases,” Palin pivoted and proceeded to accuse Obama of raising taxes 94 times. A minute later, Ifill prompted Palin to respond about McCain’s record of deregulation. Again, Palin resisted: “I’m still on the tax thing because I want to correct you on that again.” Biden looked exasperated, prompting Palin to say, “I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear, but I’m going to talk straight to the American people and let them know my track record also.” In other words, screw your questions, I’ve memorized a message and gosh darn it, I’m going to get it across.

Seriously? HAHAHA…Man did we dodge a bullet last November. Not that there was ever a bullet to dodge. When McCain picked Palin, I basically knew that the election was merely a formality. I actually have a bumper sticker that says "McF*cked" lol

In my everyday goings on I try not to generalize anything or anyone, but on occasion I have been known to refer to “republican hypocrisy.” My most major point being about abortion vs. war. Personally I’m against both, but know that both are also unfortunately necessary from time to time. Although, I think this “war” we are in right now is bullshit. I believe that Bush was just finishing up his father’s dirty work (amongst other reasons) and was looking for ANY excuse to invade Iraq. He lied to us, provided false information and preyed upon our collectively vulnerable state of mind following 9/11. The Bush family is one of the WORST things that has ever happened to this country and I’m so thrilled that that fumbling buffoon is out of office. Good riddance. Concerning abortion, I find it a bit ironic because statistically, republicans have just as many abortions as liberals. But that is an entirely different convo. Side note: I’m optimistic that the otc availability of the Plan B or “morning after” pill will GREATLY reduce the amount of abortions in the future. There is a bit of controversy over this pill, but if one does their research they will see that this pill does not terminate an existing pregnancy, only prevents one from occurring. It’s basically like taking a whole bunch of birth control pills all at once. I’ve actually taken one before and had the doctor sit down w/me and explain how it worked to make sure I wouldn’t be unknowingly having an abortion of sorts.

While I enjoy a good debate just as much as the next person, I don’t waste my time debating w/people who are so dead set in their beliefs that they are basically unreasonable. Not only unreasonable, but condescending, pejorative and to put it simply…bitchy. Ladies, I commend you for your tenacity and patience w/our midnight trolls (lol..had to). While it definitely makes for an interesting and sometimes extremely amusing read, I am looking most forward to discussing issues w/my fellow liberals. We have been assured many many times that they were going to leave and/or take their issues over to the political debating moms group, but like many conservatives…that was a big fat lie.

JL - posted on 05/26/2009

Okay, there are always people who will abuse the system and there will always be no matter what precautions we set up, so I do not believe we should punish everyone who needs a hand up because of a few bad apples or because of stereotypes asserted by Republicans. I for one am willing to have my hard earned money used in order to assist others, because I for one have benifited directly from that assistance. I would not have a college degree if is was not for federal loans that assisted me and a year ago I had to rely on WIC to help feed my child. My husband is in the military now he is an officer but when we had our second child he was an E6. I have a Masters degree and had a great job making more than my husband, but the military moved us to another state when I found I was pregnant with my second child. I was excited but then I realized I could not find a job in the new area we were moved to. We had been moved from a place with a high economy and great job opprotunties to an area with one of the lowest economies in the state, few jobs, and a below average educational system.



We work hard me and my husband and have retirement plans, savings plans ,and college funds set up for our children. We budget and do not spend our money unwisely. We do not even own one credit card. Suprisingly we found out that we qualified for WIC with our second child, but the shock for us came when we realized that we actuallly needed the assistance. We used WIC for 6 months until my husband was promoted and we no longer needed that assistance. Many Americans who work hard sometimes need a bit of help. I know middle class families who have never lived beyond their means who have been laid off and are having to turn to food banks and WIC. I also hear daily on the radio how the foodbanks can no longer cover all those in need and people can only donate so much now because of the economy. My family does what it can since we are blessed right now financially. My daughters girl scout troop has been gathering nonpersihables to help out local families and help resupply the food banks, but it is not enough and sometimes some of us need a little government assistance.



Just look at all the military families who rely on WIC and food stamps to get by and you cannot blame the low pay on Obama or the Democratic Congress because even when Republicans have been in office large numbers of military families have relied on government assistance. I know I grew up as a military brat and now I am a military wife. Not all of us who use the system are harpies. I for one do not value money so much that I am so unwilling to give some of it up to so our states and federal government can provide better educations, better health care, and better opprotunties for everyone. I for one am completely worried about the school system where I live because our Governor is so dead set against using any bail out money.Yet in the meantime the educational budgets have been greatly slashed and we already have one of the poorest and worse educational systems in the nation. My daughter as the school year progressed brought more and more flyers home from the school asking for assistance from parents to provide basic supplies like copy paper because they had no more money in the budget. Fortunately the school my daughter attends is actually one of the best schools in the state because it is on a military base.



The US is already far behind other democratic nations when it comes to education. YAY lets just make our children even more unintelligent because we are more worried about the possiblity of settling them with debt than with stupidity. Either way you look at there will be debt but lets at least give our children a better education and the reality is that too many states are not doing this so the federal government will have to step in to assist because the kids who live in in low income areas like Mississippi deserve the same educational opprotunties as the kids who live in higher income areas like New Hampshire.

Traci - posted on 05/25/2009

Quoting Michelle:

Traci, if you want to go tit for tat on politicians and their idiotic statements I have pages for you on George Bush, Sarah Palin, McCain and a entire host of other conservatives if you'd like it. Your pot shots at Joe Biden didn't make a dent in comparison to the idiocy that your party presents on a daily basis. But gee, don't take my word for it, look at Sarah's ability to debate during the election. She was responsible for all respected and educated (oops, I said educated) republicans jumping ship and coming to their senses to vote for Obama. Does Collin Powell, Lincoln Chafee, William Weld ring a bell?

If your only defense for being an uneducated voter is to slag off on our educational system the least I can do is feel sad for you. I happen to appreciate my college education, the professors who educated me (I'm a strong minded independent thinking liberal, I don't worry about brainwashing), and the peers I shared my college years with - I didn't spend my time in college sucking down alcohol and jumping in the sack with Jo Blow down the hall. I guess one would have to run with that crowd to know it.

And for that gallup poll. If you base your elation on the greater possibility of a fluke, so be it. Basically you're saying you don't care about the facts, you just want the results to be in your favor. That makes sense... your a conservative ;) Liberals care about facts.

What has changed with Obama?

Well the obvious change is not having a conservative republican like George Bush in office. That is enough for me. As for the changes that seem to escape your mind:

Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009 - 2 million acres of wilderness under federal protection (under G. Bush these lands were open for development and drilling). This conservation effort is the largest in 15 years.

Undoing the dirty work of G. Bush, Obama has made plans to close Gitmo by 2010 and ended our use of torture.

Fixing relations with other parts of the world. Lifting embargo on Cuba. Unlike G. Bush and his unwillingness to talk with other nations.

Winning approval for the $787 billion economic stimulus package. Hold onto your purse strings Tracy we now have a president that uses money to fix our problems instead of one that caters to the rich, ignoring the lower class citizens in this country. Might be a hard pill to swallow but sometimes it takes money to fix problems. Sorry your green means more to you than your fellow american.

Obama reverses President George W. Bush's ban on funding stem cell research.

Would you like more??

No matter how you cut it. Obama is our president for the next 4 years with a 69% approval rating as I type. The Republican party is in disarray. They lack leadership, are completely divided and out of fresh ideas. All I can say Tracy, with all your ideals and your need to keep yours to yourself and nothing for your fellow american is... GOOD LUCK!

As for quoting Abraham Lincoln. The man is responsible for the largest mass murder in our nations history. If you honor the words of a mass murderer, that is your prerogative,

I'm wondering what made Colin Powell a Republican?  He is prochoice, wants more people to be taken care of cradle to grave by the gov't, and believes in affirmative action.  Now there's a conservative for ya!  Just because somebody calls themselves a republican does not make them one.  As for some repubs not liking Palin, that's because they are blue blood elites, much like Obama who think they are better than everybody.  She wasn't a snob and she, unlike Obama and Biden, had stood up to her own party. 

As for your little comment about knowing that crowd, you can keep your little comments to yourself.  That was an ignorant comment to make.  Act like an adult please.  My point was that just because you are "educated" in college does not mean you are smart or have the slightest knowlege of political matters, namely what the founders set up our country to be.  Those two things are not equal.  Anybody can go to college, so your little point proves exactly nothing.

Liberals care about facts.  Now that made me laugh.  THanks, I needed that :)

As for Obama closing Gitmo...only time will tell if it'll actually happen.  His own party just told him he needs an actual plan before they'll fund it!  Bush tried to close it, he just didn't announce it first!  No other country wants to take the detainees and we don't want them here!  How would you feel if one of those guys converted a bunch of criminals in prison who then went on to attack the US?  Those guys in NY they arrested last week were converts from prison!  Don't say it can't happen here, because it did.  And Obama didn't end waterboarding either.  Bush approved the CIA's 2006 request to ban it.  Whoops! :)

Yeah, about that almost one trillion dollar "stimulus" package.  What has it stimulated?  All it has done is put us further into debt.  And how about that transparency that was promised by your god, huh?  They posted it inPDF format (so that it could not be searched via keyword, how's that for sneaky?) at 11 pm the night before they voted on it.  Yeah, that is soooo different from past administrations.  We are about to lose our AAA credit rating, our dollar isn't worth a crap, and we're spending money sending stimulus checks to dead people!  How wonderful.  That money sure is being spent wisely, I must say!  Oh! And I don't know about you but it just warms my heart knowing we are now paying for abortions and its propaganda overseas.  What a wonderful way to spend our hard earned money.  We've got over 50 trillion dollars in unfunded entitlements to be paid plus what our debt is and we want to put MORE people on the gov't doles?  Talk about not worrying about the facts....

I have a savings account and I don't exactly jump up and down at the fact that our gov't is driving down the value of my hard earned money.  People who have nothing don't care because they've got nothing to lose!  Once again, the responsible people get screwed...

FYI they don't need embryonic stem cells to do that research, they found a way to make adult stem cells behave like embryonic stem cells in order to do their research.  They don't need to destroy life in order to find cures.  Experimenting on embryos is just for the fun of it, I guess. Yay Obama!

Oh!  Guess what-Bush had a similar approval rating at the same point in time as Obama, don't be so snide just yet.  We've still got a long way to go...

What was so terrible about Abe Lincoln?  Are you referring to some "fringy" issue that is circulated on the internet or something?  He is considered one of our greatest presidents my most historians, but maybe not  the "Ward Churchill" types.  Your boy, Obama seems to want to be just like him.  Well, except maybe for that whole pesky "freedom" thing. ;) 

Michelle - posted on 05/25/2009

Traci, if you want to go tit for tat on politicians and their idiotic statements I have pages for you on George Bush, Sarah Palin, McCain and a entire host of other conservatives if you'd like it. Your pot shots at Joe Biden didn't make a dent in comparison to the idiocy that your party presents on a daily basis. But gee, don't take my word for it, look at Sarah's ability to debate during the election. She was responsible for all respected and educated (oops, I said educated) republicans jumping ship and coming to their senses to vote for Obama. Does Collin Powell, Lincoln Chafee, William Weld ring a bell?

If your only defense for being an uneducated voter is to slag off on our educational system the least I can do is feel sad for you. I happen to appreciate my college education, the professors who educated me (I'm a strong minded independent thinking liberal, I don't worry about brainwashing), and the peers I shared my college years with - I didn't spend my time in college sucking down alcohol and jumping in the sack with Jo Blow down the hall. I guess one would have to run with that crowd to know it.

And for that gallup poll. If you base your elation on the greater possibility of a fluke, so be it. Basically you're saying you don't care about the facts, you just want the results to be in your favor. That makes sense... your a conservative ;) Liberals care about facts.

What has changed with Obama?

Well the obvious change is not having a conservative republican like George Bush in office. That is enough for me. As for the changes that seem to escape your mind:

Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009 - 2 million acres of wilderness under federal protection (under G. Bush these lands were open for development and drilling). This conservation effort is the largest in 15 years.

Undoing the dirty work of G. Bush, Obama has made plans to close Gitmo by 2010 and ended our use of torture.

Fixing relations with other parts of the world. Lifting embargo on Cuba. Unlike G. Bush and his unwillingness to talk with other nations.

Winning approval for the $787 billion economic stimulus package. Hold onto your purse strings Tracy we now have a president that uses money to fix our problems instead of one that caters to the rich, ignoring the lower class citizens in this country. Might be a hard pill to swallow but sometimes it takes money to fix problems. Sorry your green means more to you than your fellow american.

Obama reverses President George W. Bush's ban on funding stem cell research.

Would you like more??

No matter how you cut it. Obama is our president for the next 4 years with a 69% approval rating as I type. The Republican party is in disarray. They lack leadership, are completely divided and out of fresh ideas. All I can say Tracy, with all your ideals and your need to keep yours to yourself and nothing for your fellow american is... GOOD LUCK!



As for quoting Abraham Lincoln. The man is responsible for the largest mass murder in our nations history. If you honor the words of a mass murderer, that is your prerogative,

Evelyn - posted on 05/25/2009

Quoting lequita:

thank u evelyn i really needed those words of encouragement

No problem. :-) My pleasure.

Traci - posted on 05/25/2009

Quoting Michelle:

I'm pretty liberal so I must respond so some of the statements posted here.



Gallup poll on prochoice vs. prolife:

Considering we have over 300 million people living in the United States, over 70% are over the age of 18 and the results of the gallop poll (more pro-lifers than those who are pro-choice) were based on telephone interviews of a mere 1,000 individuals, I don’t call it impressive nor accurate.



Obama & Abortion:

Obama voted not to ban partial birth abortions because it didn’t contain a health exception. If he had voted yes to ban partial birth abortions, even those women whose lives were at risk would not be allowed to have an abortion. Obama believed there should have been provisions to protect the HEALTH of the mother and the bills they wanted him to sign did not have those provisions so he voted not to ban the partial birth abortions.



Conservatives use the partial birth abortion issue to polarize the entire debate on abortion. Their way or no way. Obama didn’t play their game.



As for Obama wanting abortions to be safe. Abortion can only be safe if it is legal. This is for Traci Veschak – you asked“Well, if abortion isn't bad, then why make it rare?” Because abortion is a medical procedure that carries its own inherent risks. Some of which include infection, sepsis, cervical damage, perforation, scarring and death. I think any educated, intelligent person would want ALL medical procedures to be rare.



Becca Bryan, I do know about UHC and I’ve never met a Canadian that came to the U.S for medical treatment nor have I ever heard a single Canadian friend complain about their healthcare system, so it seems you and I don’t know the same people because I obviously haven’t spoken to the flock you refer to – and believe me, I call quite a few Canadians my friends.



This isn’t to say that some Canadians (those you refer to) don’t complain about their healthcare but a handful of complainers doesn’t make for a bad system.



Traci Veschak shared a “fun fact” - that conservatives give more in time and money than liberals. So I want to share a “fun fact” of my own:



The most educated states in the U.S. are democrat and the least educated are republican. Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Maine, Minnesota, Virginia, Wisconsin, Montana and New York are the top 10 most educated states in the U.S. All but one voted liberal OBAMA. 58% postgraduate voters chose Obama while only 40% chose McCain.



Democrats are known for attracting the most educated voters. Maybe it is because liberals don’t need gimmicks like Joe the Plumber or maybe it is because we chose educated seasoned politicians like Joe Biden for vice president and not uneducated “wink wink” types that see Russia from their living rooms like Sarah Palin.

Allright, here we go: 

First, the Gallup poll was significant because they always just take a small sampling of the population to get their results and this time the small sampling was more prolife than ever.  It obvious that they didn't poll the whole country, they always base it on a small % of people, and everytime before more were pro choice than prolife.  Therein lies the greater significance of this poll.  Who knows?  Maybe they just happened to randomly choose more prolifers this time, just as before maybe they had just happened to randomly choose more prochoicers.  Point is, this is the first time its happened, so yeah, we're a little excited that people are against killing babies.  Shame on us. 

And about Obama's concern over the HEALTH of the mother...that is nothing but a big loophole.  They use this in the flimsiest of ways possible.  The HEALTH of the mother also includes mental health.  Having your LIFE at stake and your mental or other health are two different things.  When Obama voted time and time again either present or against a bill that would afford babies born alive from a botched abortion medical care, that was from a nurse who kept complaining that she was sick of seeing babies thrown into the trash as medical waste.  She said when Obama saw the photos of such babies it didn't look like it even phased him.  That's a little disturbing to me.  I think I know why Obama didn't want to play their game.  Abortion is fine with him!  He even said on the campaign trail that he didn't want his girls "punished with a baby."  So, that means he'd be cool with his grandchild being aborted?  That's nice.

And about your "fun little fact"...

Just because somebody goes to college does NOT mean they are educated.  Far from it.  I just heard on the radio this morning some college grads being asked questions about our government and they didn't even know what the three branches of gov't were!  COLLEGE GRADUATES!!!  It is not hard to get into college these days, so gimme a break.  And even of the college grads, many of them did nothing but drink and sleep around during their school years so don't act all high and mighty by saying educated people voted for Obama, so conservatives are dumb. You cannot equate education with political savvy.   I went to college and I witnessed the brainwashing that went on there.  I had professors who had us read books about poverty with all the little sob stories and stuff.  Yeah, I feel bad for those people, but does that make it okay for the gov't to confiscate MY earnings to pay for them?  If you live around it, you know.  You see the people coming in with their gov't food stamp cards, wearing brand name clothes, with their nails professionally manicured, their babies wearing the new Jordans.  Oh!  Woe is me!  How do they ever survive?  Whatever.    I just saw a wonderful quote by Abraham Lincoln and I think this is very appropriate for our conversation.   This is the inherent differece between conservatism and liberalism(statism).

"We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing.  With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor.  Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name--liberty.  And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names--liberty and tyranny."-- Abraham Lincoln, 1864

Wow.  What a difference!!!  I know what kind of a country I want to live in, how bout you?

Oh!  And don't you think calling Joe Biden educated is a stretch???  Okay, yeah, he may be educated, but he sure isn't smart!!!  I'll take wink wink over:

"C'mon, Stand up Chuck!" (said to a man confined to a wheelchair)

"A three letter word-J-O-B-S"

""When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened." –Joe Biden, apparently unaware that FDR wasn't president when the stock market crashed in 1929 and that only experimental TV sets were in use at that time

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." –Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.... I'm not joking." --Joe Biden, in a private remark to an Indian-American man caught on C-SPAN, June, 2006

"You know, I'm embarrassed. Do you know the Web site number? I should have it in front of me and I don't. I'm actually embarrassed."

Oh!  And never mind him giving up secret VP hideout information!  I don't feel comfortable with this guy having TOP SECRET serurity clearances, do you?  At least Palin can keep a secret!  And if you don't call Obama a gimmick, than I don't know what is!  Hope and Change, now that's a gimmick!  What's changed??  Oh! excuse me, I meant to say, what has changed for the better?

Lequita - posted on 05/25/2009

thank u evelyn i really needed those words of encouragement

Evelyn - posted on 05/25/2009

Well said Michelle! I'm glad someone brought up the "educated vote" statistics. Us Lib's tend to gravitate towards fact rather than fiction. Or at least we're intelligent enough to know the difference.

Amy - posted on 05/25/2009

Quoting Joy:

As far as the funding issues for the military well in large part that is result of an inadequate group of men at the Pentagon and DOD who have chosen to ineffeciently spend funding and give ridiculous absorbent contracts to companies lilke Halliburton and Kellog Brown and Root. Companies who some of the soldiers I know feel like are gaining too much from the previous administrations decisons. My husband has stated that sometimes the soldiers feel like they are fighting a war in Iraq sponsored by Halliburton and Kellog Brown and Root. The food, the sheltering, even GITMO is all contracted out to these companies. I say shame on those at the top in all the military branches controlling the budgets because they make the decisions on where to spend the money and the military has a long history of wasteful and useless spending and unfortunately it is the little guy at the bottom the NCOS and privates who suffer and have to turn to food stamps and WIC in order to feed their children while they sacrifice their lives.

My father use to come home and tell me how the military had thrown away hundreds of millions of dollars by purchasing a crap load of hammers that cost 25.00 each even though they didn't need them. My husband came home a few months ago furious because they needed to practice field exercises for deployment with some of the vehicles they were deploying with but they could not get authorization because command said they could not afford the gas yet they just got in a shipment of extermely expensive radios that were to be outfitted in 25 different vehicles and these were vehicles not being used for deployment and the radios were something that they would never use in his unit, but that was that was how someone at the top decided to waist money. Rather than train on the vehicles that they are deployed with they got useless overpriced radios that they will never use.  . . .  

I used to be enlisted in the Navy, my brother was enlisted in the Navy, and my husband is still in the Navy stationed on the U.S.S. George H. W. Bush.

It is ridiculous the amount of money they have spent building that thing, and for what? Show me a country that has anywhere close to the naval firepower we have. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Also, I have never heard my husband complain more about a ship than on the his time on the Bush. He's a plankowner and that means he's been on since before they commissioned the ship. Northrupp Grumman has really got the government over the proverbial barrel on this. He's had to do so much of the work over that the shipyard workers were supposed to do. Spaces and equipment had been signed over to ship control that were clearly faulty and not completed. The thing sounds like a damn floating death trap to me. What a comfort. The taxpayers are paying for this thing twice over by paying for the contract with Northrupp Grumman and now with paying the Navy and all the E-nothings at the bottom of the food chain to clean the mess up. Get this, even after it's commissioned, it's got to go back to Northrupp Grumman's shipyard to be *retrofitted.* Paying out the nose again. I'm all for military spending, as long as we're doing it for things we need, not ridiculous, open-ended contracts. I can't think of how many times out to sea on the Lincoln that we couldn't get the simple parts we needed. How many extra watches I had to stand because the #1 throttle control for the ship was broken. Yes, spend money, but make sure we're spending it on armor for the guys in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to pay some shipyard worker $20 an hour to sleep and sit on the smoke pad all day.

I'm sorry, I'm just doubly inflamed because I'm a union worker, and when I see stuff like union paint teams sitting around on the smoke pad all day and my husband has to go back and spend Christmas painting some spaces that they said were done already makes me just shake with anger. Know why he had to spend Christmas painting that hunk of junk? 'Cause Bush wanted a last gift to his daddy before he left office in January. Can't afford to look bad in front of the Prez and dear old Dad.

Argh. 

JL - posted on 05/25/2009

RIGHT ON Michelle!

Michelle - posted on 05/25/2009

I'm pretty liberal so I must respond so some of the statements posted here.





Gallup poll on prochoice vs. prolife:


Considering we have over 300 million people living in the United States, over 70% are over the age of 18 and the results of the gallop poll (more pro-lifers than those who are pro-choice) were based on telephone interviews of a mere 1,000 individuals, I don’t call it impressive nor accurate.





Obama & Abortion:


Obama voted not to ban partial birth abortions because it didn’t contain a health exception. If he had voted yes to ban partial birth abortions, even those women whose lives were at risk would not be allowed to have an abortion. Obama believed there should have been provisions to protect the HEALTH of the mother and the bills they wanted him to sign did not have those provisions so he voted not to ban the partial birth abortions.





Conservatives use the partial birth abortion issue to polarize the entire debate on abortion. Their way or no way. Obama didn’t play their game.





As for Obama wanting abortions to be safe. Abortion can only be safe if it is legal. This is for Traci Veschak – you asked“Well, if abortion isn't bad, then why make it rare?” Because abortion is a medical procedure that carries its own inherent risks. Some of which include infection, sepsis, cervical damage, perforation, scarring and death. I think any educated, intelligent person would want ALL medical procedures to be rare.





Becca Bryan, I do know about UHC and I’ve never met a Canadian that came to the U.S for medical treatment nor have I ever heard a single Canadian friend complain about their healthcare system, so it seems you and I don’t know the same people because I obviously haven’t spoken to the flock you refer to – and believe me, I call quite a few Canadians my friends.





This isn’t to say that some Canadians (those you refer to) don’t complain about their healthcare but a handful of complainers doesn’t make for a bad system.





Traci Veschak shared a “fun fact” - that conservatives give more in time and money than liberals. So I want to share a “fun fact” of my own:





The most educated states in the U.S. are democrat and the least educated are republican. Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Maine, Minnesota, Virginia, Wisconsin, Montana and New York are the top 10 most educated states in the U.S. All but one voted liberal OBAMA. 58% postgraduate voters chose Obama while only 40% chose McCain.





Democrats are known for attracting the most educated voters. Maybe it is because liberals don’t need gimmicks like Joe the Plumber or maybe it is because we chose educated seasoned politicians like Joe Biden for vice president and not uneducated “wink wink” types that see Russia from their living rooms like Sarah Palin.

Rachael - posted on 05/24/2009

My father, too works for the DOD as a civilian contractor (after years of service as an officer in the USAF) and he has the same exact complaints about the incompetence of the people in charge. I really feel sorry for him during the budget season as he well knows that certain things that need funding will never see the light of day, yet they have plenty of money for the squadron's snack bar or other things that aren't as high of a priority. Funding and manpower are wasted and people suffer for it, but unfortunately that happens everywhere, even in my field. This fiscal year alone many of the graduate students at the university that I work at were denied travel funds for conference attendance or professional development, but somehow our department was able to afford to give certain faculty members brand new expensive office furniture and an entire mountain of copier paper that we honestly don't need. Honestly, I don't see the logic in that!

Traci, I agree with you that the bailouts helps breeds irresponsibility in many of the organizations that have needed them. They drove their companies to the ground and honestly I shouldn't have to pay for their corporate greed. And you're right--it does show a certain degree of government favoritism as only certain industries are helped while others are left in the dark. But despite all of this, I also can't help but be reminded of the people at the bottom of these companies that will ultimately suffer more if these companies go completely under. It is both unfair and unfortunate that they must suffer because their executives were unable to run a corporation efficiently enough and were more concerned about their own personal profits. Because of this (although I must admit I really don't like it :-/), I've been "supportive" of the bailouts. It's a pretty crummy catch 22, isn't it? ;-)

As far as abortion is concerned, yes there does need to be better policies concerning child care, prenatal care, access to birth control, sex education, and alternatives. Personally I feel that it's a choice that I don't agree with (but I won't make that decision for another woman), and it's an issue that really needs to be addressed with stronger information and education.

Rachael - posted on 05/24/2009

My father, too works for the DOD as a civilian contractor (after years of service as an officer in the USAF) and he has the same exact complaints about the incompetence of the people in charge. I really feel sorry for him during the budget season as he well knows that certain things that need funding will never see the light of day, yet they have plenty of money for the squadron's snack bar or other things that aren't as high of a priority. Funding and manpower are wasted and people suffer for it, but unfortunately that happens everywhere, even in my field. This fiscal year alone many of the graduate students at the university that I work at were denied travel funds for conference attendance or professional development, but somehow our department was able to afford to give certain faculty members brand new expensive office furniture and an entire mountain of copier paper that we honestly don't need. Honestly, I don't see the logic in that!

Traci, I agree with you that the bailouts helps breeds irresponsibility in many of the organizations that have needed them. They drove their companies to the ground and honestly I shouldn't have to pay for their corporate greed. And you're right--it does show a certain degree of government favoritism as only certain industries are helped while others are left in the dark. But despite all of this, I also can't help but be reminded of the people at the bottom of these companies that will ultimately suffer more if these companies go completely under. It is both unfair and unfortunate that they must suffer because their executives were unable to run a corporation efficiently enough and were more concerned about their own personal profits. Because of this (although I must admit I really don't like it :-/), I've been "supportive" of the bailouts. It's a pretty crummy catch 22, isn't it? ;-)

As far as abortion is concerned, yes there does need to be better policies concerning child care, prenatal care, access to birth control, sex education, and alternatives. Personally I feel that it's a choice that I don't agree with (but I won't make that decision for another woman), and it's an issue that really needs to be addressed with stronger information and education.

JL - posted on 05/23/2009

I have to say that I am also part of a military family that has a very long tradition in serving this nation. My father retired after 25 years in the Army, therefore I was born into the military life, it is all I know. My husband who is also the son of a retired soldier also grew up as an Army brat, it is the only life he knows. My husband has been in the military 10 years and is an officer in the MI branch. He has been to Afghanistan once and Iraq three times plus a host of other places. And I can say that not all of those associated with the military have the same stance as the military soldiers you personally know. My husband is one those as are many other soldiers we know are who agree with most of Obama's policies. The military is not a system of monolothic ideals. It is a cosmos of the civilian world made up of men and women who come from all walks of life and they do not all have the same political ideals. My husband is a liberal as are many other soldiers. The thing about the military is that soldiers are not afforded the same civil rights as us civilians. They can not speak out against there commander in chief and when called to duty they answer whether they agree or not and many in the civilian community would probably be shocked with the number of soldiers who fervently supported Obama and hope that he ends the occupation in Iraq sooner rather than later.



As far as the funding issues for the military well in large part that is result of an inadequate group of men at the Pentagon and DOD who have chosen to ineffeciently spend funding and give ridiculous absorbent contracts to companies lilke Halliburton and Kellog Brown and Root. Companies who some of the soldiers I know feel like are gaining too much from the previous administrations decisons. My husband has stated that sometimes the soldiers feel like they are fighting a war in Iraq sponsored by Halliburton and Kellog Brown and Root. The food, the sheltering, even GITMO is all contracted out to these companies. I say shame on those at the top in all the military branches controlling the budgets because they make the decisions on where to spend the money and the military has a long history of wasteful and useless spending and unfortunately it is the little guy at the bottom the NCOS and privates who suffer and have to turn to food stamps and WIC in order to feed their children while they sacrifice their lives.



My father use to come home and tell me how the military had thrown away hundreds of millions of dollars by purchasing a crap load of hammers that cost 25.00 each even though they didn't need them. My husband came home a few months ago furious because they needed to practice field exercises for deployment with some of the vehicles they were deploying with but they could not get authorization because command said they could not afford the gas yet they just got in a shipment of extermely expensive radios that were to be outfitted in 25 different vehicles and these were vehicles not being used for deployment and the radios were something that they would never use in his unit, but that was that was how someone at the top decided to waist money. Rather than train on the vehicles that they are deployed with they got useless overpriced radios that they will never use.



I am a professional historian and research is what I do,so I for one I do not take what either side says as the full truth I research and think for myself, BUT I think we also have to remember that it is not just info that forms our ideals and opinions. It is our life experiences and we need to realize that what you may experience is very different from what I may experience. I mean look at how those you know in the military have a totally different take than the people I personally know in the military. It is all about life experiences. I have moved around so much in my life that I have a different view than someone who has lived around the same area most of their life. I have lived in states with amazing school systems and great economic opprotunities and I have lived in states with crappy school systems and terrible economic opprotunities. From my experience of attending various school systems I have developed the opinion that many states are not living up to their part and that is why I for one agree with the federal government sometimes stepping in to assist the states who cannot afford to provide better standards or to push states who refuse to work toward creating better standards so that all children from the begining no matter if they live in Mississippi or New Hampshire have the same edcuational opprotunities.



And I think that as polarizing as as the subject of abortion is I would hope that we could at least agree that there needs to be better policies concerning child care, prenatal care, access to birth control, sex education, rape, incest, child social services, and adoption.

Becca - posted on 05/23/2009

excuse my grammar and spelling, i'm typing and nursing. its hard!

Becca - posted on 05/23/2009

i know i said i would leave. but i want to reply to some of joy's comments.



I think that most everyone is disgusted with parties. Its getting rediculous how the only thing you hear from either side is the extremists. It makes it really hard for those of our nation who depend on the media for their info. All they hear is the most outrageous stuff from both sides. Its not fair. And not everyone is going to research things for themselves. And the media FEEDS on this.



Here is the thing with Obama failing. I dont wish him failure outright. BUt i don't agree with most of what he is trying to acomplish. I think alot of its going to be disasterous for many americans, and since, like i said, most people dont research for themselves, and just let them selves go aong with the current, most americans dont know the details of what is going on. I do not want most of his plans to be successful. I think they will bring more hurt than good.



I am part of a family where most of the men are millitary, alot of them higher ups. They and their co-workers are terriefied about what Obama has said he is planning. The cuts to the funding arent doing anything but hurting the soldiers who are already over there, with inadacuate protection, faulty equipment, and substandard living conditions. I know I know, if it hadn't been for poor decisions by the previous administration, they wouldnt be over there now. But they are, so lets go from here and not make rash decisions just to make a point. There are people over there who ARE without a single doubt a threat to our security, and would have by now attacked us again had we not been there to find them first.



Abortion is a whole issue that cons. and libs. will never find common ground. Its mostly a matter of whether you feel its a life at conception or not, and there is no way of deciding that now.

JL - posted on 05/23/2009

I love that boths sides are talking because the only way we can make this world a better place is to turn off the extrermists and listen to one another. We need to find a middle ground in order to succeed. As Lincoln brilliantly noted a House divided cannot stand and that is my worry for this nation. I am a Liberal and yes I was excited with Obama winning the election but at the same time I knew that in order for Obama to have a successful administration he would have to eventually move to the center on most issues because a president must represent everyone in the nation and their duty is too guarantee everyones rights. That is often my problem with the Conservative right because it seems like their stance is there way or no way. I feel like they sometimes do come off hypocritical and less the party of christianity than they bill themselves to be.



I was personally very very disgusted with the way the elections went down and honestly most of my disgust was about the way the Conservative extreme right of the Republican party conducted itself it was shameful and unfortunatly continues to be. I just wish that more of the middle ground Republicans whom seem to be arguing in this forum would have stood up and said that the divisional, hateful, and fear mongering of some of the members of their party who have been dominating the air waves does not represent them as a party. The voice of men like Rush Limbaugh who seem to be more about insulting, giving out false info, and inciting irrational fear have become their main spokesperson which makes us on the other side of the issues think that there is no way we can come together and make this world better.



I also personally find the shouting out for Obama to fail from the right side insulting. And here is why because when you wish for Obama to fail because your thinking is that what he wants is bad for this nation you are wishing for EVERYTHING he does to fail including the two wars we are currently involved in and our relations with the nations that do not like us and are potential threats. By wishing Obama to fail I feel like that is wishing harm upon my husband who is a US soldier. His life depends upon Obama successfully bringing our troops home from Iraq, successfully conducting the war in Afghanistan, and successfully rebuilding our relations through diplomacy with other nations. My husbands life is inheritly bound to Obamas success in the areas of naitonal security, military matters, and foreign relations. So I say how dare you wish Obama to fail at the expense of our soldiers lives.

Pamela - posted on 05/23/2009

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! I thought I was the ONLY one who felt this way. I personally am against abortion for myself but I don't feel I have the right to judge others, So why is sending your grown child to get killed any better.If your child survives then they have the heartache of having killed. Christ ate with sinners ,had compassion for those of ALL faiths and I believe tried to teach us Love above all else. Yes I have read the Bible several times and I do not get the feeling of intolerance from Christ. Also he was not about dividing humanity like the GOP seems to be.Shoot now ask questions later seems anti -Christian to me. Perhaps we should pray for them:)

Traci - posted on 05/21/2009

I hear ya! ;)

Theresa - posted on 05/21/2009

This is the best conversation I have participated in (or read) in a long time! I even turned off hardball to read it!



Maybe we should gut Washington and let all the women citizens run the show! We seem to have better ideas of what we DON'T want and probably could come up with more solutions! Ha, ha, ha!

Becca - posted on 05/21/2009

we aren't all money hungry nut jobs. tee hee...although i will admit there are a few of us who are.

Sara - posted on 05/21/2009

Thanks Becca. It's easy to get defensive, I do apologize for that before. I mean, I've learned that even Traci and I can learn to have a civil discussion, so I guess I"m getting somewhere. ;)

Becca - posted on 05/21/2009

see. i love this. when we are cordial and respectful, we can find some common ground and possibly learn from eachother. instead of tossing insults. Thank you sara for this discussion. I respect your beliefs and while i disagree, i've learned a bit from this convo. u rock.

Sara - posted on 05/21/2009

Well, healthcare is private now and I don't think it's efficient. But, I'm not sure what the answer is to our healthcare system.



The government, now and in the past, have helped companies through corporate welfare . So, while we have claimed to be a capitalist society, in practice it is my opinion that we have not been. I don't disagree with you two that companies should have been left to fail, but I think that the people in congress, as well as the President, were afraid of the unknown if they let that happen. I can't say I blame them. It would have been huge risk to let Fannie and Freddie go. Coulda, woulda, shoulda I guess. The question now is what are we going to do from here? I personally feel that people should get help so they don't lose their homes, especially if they were victim to predatory lending practices. I do believe that if we can stabilize the housing market, then that will be a huge step in stabilizing the economy overall. But I do agree to some extent, you can't bail out everybody.

Becca - posted on 05/21/2009

i think the bottom line is that we are a capitalist society. companies who are irresponsible are SUPOSED to fail and faid away so that better more responisble ones can profit. If this doesn't happen, no one has any drive to get better, no one has any motive to be responisble. We become dependant drones completely reiliant on the government to give us our basic needs.

i totally agree that healthcare needs to be reformed. but on the private level to keep it effician. The government is by definition inefficiant and wasteful.

Traci - posted on 05/21/2009

Quoting Sara:

We are not all Obama automatons with no independent thoughts of our own here.

If you would like an example of an Obama program that is good and why, how about the Foreclosure Prevention Progrram? Currenlty, 11% of mortgages in this country are deliquent or in foreclosure, so helping people to avoid forclosure will help to bolster our economy and stabalize the current housing crisis.

Here's how it works:

If you are currently in deliquency or foreclosure, you provide your most recent tax return and two pay stubs, as well as an "affidavit of financial hardship" to qualify for the $75 billion loan modification program, which runs through 2012. Borrowers are only allowed to have their loans modified once, and the program only applies for loans made on Jan. 1 2009 or earlier. Up to 4 million borrowers are expected to qualify. Mortgages for single-family properties that are worth more than $729,750 are excluded.

Separately, up to 5 million borrowers who have mortgages held by government controlled mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be eligible to refinance through June 2010.

I'm sure you'll find something wrong with this program, but regulations need to be put on the housing industry and people need help so they don't lose their homes. That's a huge step in helping to stabilize the current economic crisis, in my humble, liberal and apparently automatous opinion.

On a side note, do you actually know anyone that lives in Europe and has real experience with the health care systems over there? How exactly have you come to the conclusion that UHC is crap? I'm not saying that I think it will work here, but I certainly don't think that the systems over there are shit.

I understand how you think this is a good idea, but I think where conservatives are coming from on this issue is that when you  keep bailing people out it creates more irresponsibility.  That is really incalculable, I think.  I mean, we prop up everybody now.  The auto companies are running their businesses into the ground, and we swoop in to save them.  Same with the banks, the mortgages, now California is going to ask for a rescue.  With all these institutions getting bailed out how do we deter others from wrecking stuff and abusing the system just to get a bailout?  For example, California has been incredibly irresponsible as far as spending.  They are billions of dollars short this year.  This isn't just because of police, fire, teachers, etc(although I hear the typical police officer retires at 90% of their pay, which is completely unsustainable for a gov't to pay).  Its due to ridiculous spending on healthcare for illegals, saving the otters, studies of animal populations and other ridiculous spending that could be done with private funds.  So now we've got the Governator who is going to ask to be bailed out(he is denying it, but its gonna happen).  So what is to stop the other states from promising their citizens the moon because they know that when push comes to shove, they'll get bailed out too.  What about the firefighter who lives in South Carolina who is only promised a modest retirement because he works for a responsible government who realizes that you cannot promise retirees full pay.  Well, if California gets bailed out that firefighter in S.C. will in effect be paying the police officer in Cali's pension through his taxes.  How fair is that?  That creates a lot of  animosity between our citizens, I think.  Nobody is too big to fail.  If we adhere to that, there will be less of this fiscal irresponsibility, don't you think?  Same with the businesses and banks.  The only way to get your act together is to fail sometimes.  We can't bail out everybody, so then when the gov't bails out certain institutions, it is like the gov't is choosing favorites or picking winners, which they have no business of doing. 

That's just where I'm coming from on this issue.  There are many unintended consequences to these programs. 

Sara - posted on 05/21/2009

Well, I work/live at a University which has a very diverse international community. I have many friend's and colleagues that are not from the US. We have had many discussions about UHC and I have only heard praise from them about it. But, like I said, I don't have faith that our government would actually carry out something that like well. I do believe, however, that we need to change our current health care system. It should not be a for-profit business controlled my insurance companies, I mean, it's peoples lives we're talking about here, not some widget. I think it's sad that people have to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills.

Becca - posted on 05/21/2009

my mother spends 90% of the year in the UK for work and not one person we have become cose to can stand the healthcare system, And my best friend is a canadian who moved here just to get away from it. Maybe its just differing opinions, but you are the first i've heard say anything good about it



as far as the mortgage system....i disagree about it being a good idea to bail these people out as we did every huge bank and corporation this year, but im impressed that you knew. Also a first. Kudos.

Sara - posted on 05/21/2009

We are not all Obama automatons with no independent thoughts of our own here.



If you would like an example of an Obama program that is good and why, how about the Foreclosure Prevention Progrram? Currenlty, 11% of mortgages in this country are deliquent or in foreclosure, so helping people to avoid forclosure will help to bolster our economy and stabalize the current housing crisis.



Here's how it works:



If you are currently in deliquency or foreclosure, you provide your most recent tax return and two pay stubs, as well as an "affidavit of financial hardship" to qualify for the $75 billion loan modification program, which runs through 2012. Borrowers are only allowed to have their loans modified once, and the program only applies for loans made on Jan. 1 2009 or earlier. Up to 4 million borrowers are expected to qualify. Mortgages for single-family properties that are worth more than $729,750 are excluded.



Separately, up to 5 million borrowers who have mortgages held by government controlled mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be eligible to refinance through June 2010.



I'm sure you'll find something wrong with this program, but regulations need to be put on the housing industry and people need help so they don't lose their homes. That's a huge step in helping to stabilize the current economic crisis, in my humble, liberal and apparently automatous opinion.



On a side note, do you actually know anyone that lives in Europe and has real experience with the health care systems over there? How exactly have you come to the conclusion that UHC is crap? I'm not saying that I think it will work here, but I certainly don't think that the systems over there are shit.