Dr. Tiller

Vanessa - posted on 06/04/2009

Nice discussions here!!! I am so glad that even if some of us have different beliefs we can still have a civil discussion.

Kelly - posted on 06/03/2009

Hi Ladies,



I too hope that you don't think I was spying or looking for trouble...... On this subject I guess I feel safer expressing my feelings here, although I did post my views in the "debate" room as well. I think there are a lot of close minded people out there, and the uneducated hate attacks are just unexplainable. Could just be heat of the moment, and then everyone feeds off each other I don't know. Anyway, I won't ever post in your forums looking for a fight, sometimes its just nice to talk to civilized people and see another view. Thanks for your hospitality :-)



Kelly

Sara - posted on 06/03/2009

Joy rocks!

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Joy:

Sara, I have yet to respond to the attack thread. I read it and then turned off my laptop because I unlike some of the other women over there I want to remain as respectful as I can. I ventured to the political debating moms in hope of understanding the views of others and hopefully having them understand mine so that we could find ways to reach a middle ground. As I stated in one post over there..I fear more than anything else that it will not be outside forces but forces from within that destroy this nation and those forces being based on ideological differences. As much as I try over there I feel that certain individuals do not show the same level of respect as I try to show them. It is strange because if they stopped they would realize that in some instances THOUTH THEY ARE FEW we have agreed and those instances should be used as stepping blocks for coming to a middle ground but unfortunately they have been used to call me out and state that my opinions do not make sense. WTF how dare you tell me that my opinions are invalid because I have different views on various issues. As human beings we are complex individuals. How we feel, relate, and believe in not monolothic or simplistic. I may not feel like I personally could ever have an abortion but then again I have not ever been put into an extreme situation where that was a viable and neccesary choice. To be pro-choice does not mean I am pro-abortion or not for having laws and regulations that prevent the abuse of the system. I operate in the believe that it takes a village and that we should never judge someone for the life they have had to lead and the choices they have therefore had to make.

Sara I have not responded yet to the post about taxes and a womens right to make choices concerning her own body. But I want to yell out hello our governments at every level need money in order to operate....they must pay government employees like fireman, police officers and the military..they do this by using taxes. How else are they suppose to protect us and guarantee certain rights if they don't. If you want a public education for your kids, if you want the garbage man to show up and pick up your trash, if you want emergency services, your mailed delivered, if you want cable lines put up...well then you have to pay taxes in order to have those services. It is simple economics and the reality of how an effective government can operate.

Anyways I would like to say thank you to Tawny and Kelly for taking the steps to understand where my opinions are coming from when I post reponses to the issues in the political debating moms community. I thank you for being respectful and for attempting to look out of the box toward a middle ground. I do not mind women from the other side of the political aisle venturing over here as a way of educating themselves about what others think, but I do mind us being attacked over here when this is obviously a support group for women whom in the most part have the same views. It just gets frustrating and I feel like I have to constantly repeat myself, especially in areas that I am trained in. I have a Masters Degree in American history and an undergraduate degree in Polisci and I am currently working on my Ph.D. I have taught at different levels and am probably going to go back to teach college courses once again next semester, so I find it infuriating when I relay facts and evidence in areas in which I have researched in depth and written numerous papers on too only be responded to through a repudiation that is based off some article that is nothing more than an opinion peice or some moron who has used no factual evidence and distorted history in order to prove an absurd point.

Esther I am too a fan of Andrew Sullivan. He is truly a compassionate Christian and a man who wants to work toward a middle ground on the ideological issues that tear us apart because he for one realizes that this nation is completely divided down the middle so we need to work together rather than against one another. He also understand the power of language and how we should not use words that incite others into reacting violently. It is dangerous and irresponsible.

I found one thing interesting last night while watching AC 360... a man who used to write some hateful things with his father about Dr. Tiller wrote a statement about how he and his father never imagined that someone would actually do the very thing that had insuintated in their attacks,( they had stated basically that he was a murderer and someone needed to take him out) but that he now realized how irresponisble and wrong they had been for writings such incendiary things and how he wished they would have chosen the language they used differently and spoke with more positive ways to end aboriton that using hateful and hurtful words to express their feelings. I thought wow someone finally gets the fact that words do hurt and sometimes in the most awful ways and that is one reason why I was infuriated by the GOP during the elections. Yes Palin and McCain were not saying the outrageous hateful racist remarks themselves but Palin used language that incited the hateful speech and she did nothing to calm down the crazies and McCain only did so when things had gotten way to far.

And as far as being called out by Traci well I will eventually will respond to her and let her know that in this forum for the Obama Mamas I felt like it was a place for me to rant and let out my frustrations in a safe way where I would not be attacked. I figure the same thing is going on over there with the conservative moms community in which I will not venture over there in order to spy on her. As other women have stated I came into this forum to speak with liked minded women because if I really wanted to be attacked for my opinions and political affiliation I would call my father in law he is good at that, lol! She is entitled to have the conservative community as a place to express her feelings with liked minded women as I am over here. I will continue to debate over in the debating moms community but I will probably not respond as often to the posts that make me loose my hope in the power of human kindness and the importance of the intellectual acceptance of our differences.

Like a breath of fresh air! I agree, start your own blog! That's an order!! lol Seriously though, keep us posted when and if you do! My opinionated arse will be one of the first followers lol. That was EXTREMELY well written Joy.

Traci - posted on 06/02/2009

Yeah, I totally understand...I'm a former military wife myself! :) I was in no way trying to offend, but a couple of the sentences in that opinion piece rang true to me, that's all. I don't agree with that rag either, I just happened to hear about that piece and I thought it would make for an interesting conversation. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.

JL - posted on 06/02/2009

Sorry for all the misspellings and typos but I am holding my wiggly 21 month old while typing which does not work well :)

JL - posted on 06/02/2009

Traci I have to say I have enjoyed some of our conversations like the one concerning SCOTUS, but I felt like some of the posts one inparticular that you put for discussion were done as a way to poke at Liberals and force some angry heated arguements to ensue. I don't know if that was your intention or just how it came across to me. I was really offended by the Russia posting, which I know you agree with, but it bothered me not just for political reasons but for personal reasons. It represents to me politically the extremists opinions that only cause violent reactions rather than understanding and healthy debates over opposing opinions. I thought that the opinion piece you posted was obviously representing one side only and should have been left to a different forum for liked minded women, because a debate on that piece would have caused no good to come out of it. I was personally disgusted by it because of what Pravda stands for and as a wife of a military soldier I would never read anything that comes out of that tabliod even if for some chance I might agree with it because that would in my opinion be upholding that rag which has attacked our US soldiers in horrible ways calling them disgusting names and arguing that an attack upon us and our soldiers would be deserving since we have only as they have stated carpet bombed and destroyed Iraq needlessly and as much as I do not agree with the war in Iraq I cannot in good consquence follow the writings of those who have basically wishing harm upon my husband. Plus the rag is nothing more that a sexist publication that debases women.

Rachael - posted on 06/02/2009

Thank you! Good luck on your studies, just remember--it will end soon enough. ;-)

JL - posted on 06/02/2009

Thank you Esther and Rachael. I do feel like sometimes giving some of the posts an F for using inadequate and inappropriate resources to back their opinions. In the classroom I would make some of my students go back and find other other supportive and well as repudiating evidence before I let them turn in thier work, lol. Racheal congrats on finishing your doctoral studies I know how much work and focus that takes.

Traci - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Joy:

Sara, I have yet to respond to the attack thread. I read it and then turned off my laptop because I unlike some of the other women over there I want to remain as respectful as I can. I ventured to the political debating moms in hope of understanding the views of others and hopefully having them understand mine so that we could find ways to reach a middle ground. As I stated in one post over there..I fear more than anything else that it will not be outside forces but forces from within that destroy this nation and those forces being based on ideological differences. As much as I try over there I feel that certain individuals do not show the same level of respect as I try to show them. It is strange because if they stopped they would realize that in some instances THOUTH THEY ARE FEW we have agreed and those instances should be used as stepping blocks for coming to a middle ground but unfortunately they have been used to call me out and state that my opinions do not make sense. WTF how dare you tell me that my opinions are invalid because I have different views on various issues. As human beings we are complex individuals. How we feel, relate, and believe in not monolothic or simplistic. I may not feel like I personally could ever have an abortion but then again I have not ever been put into an extreme situation where that was a viable and neccesary choice. To be pro-choice does not mean I am pro-abortion or not for having laws and regulations that prevent the abuse of the system. I operate in the believe that it takes a village and that we should never judge someone for the life they have had to lead and the choices they have therefore had to make.

Sara I have not responded yet to the post about taxes and a womens right to make choices concerning her own body. But I want to yell out hello our governments at every level need money in order to operate....they must pay government employees like fireman, police officers and the military..they do this by using taxes. How else are they suppose to protect us and guarantee certain rights if they don't. If you want a public education for your kids, if you want the garbage man to show up and pick up your trash, if you want emergency services, your mailed delivered, if you want cable lines put up...well then you have to pay taxes in order to have those services. It is simple economics and the reality of how an effective government can operate.

Anyways I would like to say thank you to Tawny and Kelly for taking the steps to understand where my opinions are coming from when I post reponses to the issues in the political debating moms community. I thank you for being respectful and for attempting to look out of the box toward a middle ground. I do not mind women from the other side of the political aisle venturing over here as a way of educating themselves about what others think, but I do mind us being attacked over here when this is obviously a support group for women whom in the most part have the same views. It just gets frustrating and I feel like I have to constantly repeat myself, especially in areas that I am trained in. I have a Masters Degree in American history and an undergraduate degree in Polisci and I am currently working on my Ph.D. I have taught at different levels and am probably going to go back to teach college courses once again next semester, so I find it infuriating when I relay facts and evidence in areas in which I have researched in depth and written numerous papers on too only be responded to through a repudiation that is based off some article that is nothing more than an opinion peice or some moron who has used no factual evidence and distorted history in order to prove an absurd point.

Esther I am too a fan of Andrew Sullivan. He is truly a compassionate Christian and a man who wants to work toward a middle ground on the ideological issues that tear us apart because he for one realizes that this nation is completely divided down the middle so we need to work together rather than against one another. He also understand the power of language and how we should not use words that incite others into reacting violently. It is dangerous and irresponsible.

I found one thing interesting last night while watching AC 360... a man who used to write some hateful things with his father about Dr. Tiller wrote a statement about how he and his father never imagined that someone would actually do the very thing that had insuintated in their attacks,( they had stated basically that he was a murderer and someone needed to take him out) but that he now realized how irresponisble and wrong they had been for writings such incendiary things and how he wished they would have chosen the language they used differently and spoke with more positive ways to end aboriton that using hateful and hurtful words to express their feelings. I thought wow someone finally gets the fact that words do hurt and sometimes in the most awful ways and that is one reason why I was infuriated by the GOP during the elections. Yes Palin and McCain were not saying the outrageous hateful racist remarks themselves but Palin used language that incited the hateful speech and she did nothing to calm down the crazies and McCain only did so when things had gotten way to far.

And as far as being called out by Traci well I will eventually will respond to her and let her know that in this forum for the Obama Mamas I felt like it was a place for me to rant and let out my frustrations in a safe way where I would not be attacked. I figure the same thing is going on over there with the conservative moms community in which I will not venture over there in order to spy on her. As other women have stated I came into this forum to speak with liked minded women because if I really wanted to be attacked for my opinions and political affiliation I would call my father in law he is good at that, lol! She is entitled to have the conservative community as a place to express her feelings with liked minded women as I am over here. I will continue to debate over in the debating moms community but I will probably not respond as often to the posts that make me loose my hope in the power of human kindness and the importance of the intellectual acceptance of our differences.

Joy, I am sorry if you feel that I am attacking you, but I sure didn't try to.  What did I say that upset you?  I have tried very hard to be respectful, never calling names or anything...why do I frustrate you so badly?  All I have done is state my opinions and maybe a few reasons or examples for why I feel the way I do, all based on my life experiences.  I am sorry if I have offended you, I completely respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them.  I know sometimes the COM arguements can get a little touchy, but these are touchy subjects we talk about.  I think its safe to say that you will not change my mind and I will not change yours, but its still interesting to banter back and forth, I think.  Sorry if I have bothered you, I've enjoyed our conversations :)

Rachael - posted on 06/02/2009

Joy, I too know exactly how you feel, especially having had worked at the graduate level as well. I have had to exercise a great deal of self-restraint in posting responses to some of the insanity that some of the women post here at CoM, primarily in regards to discussions involving homosexuality and evolution. As a biologist and someone that just finished her doctoral studies (yay!) and performs research with an evolutionary perspective, I could take the time to explain the subjects that they are so against. But as I have learned in my own experiences (even here at CoM), some people just refuse to be taught and enjoy their happy little bubble. In the end, I just end up frustrated and wasted time and energy that could've been spent elsewhere. As much as it annoys me, I've learned just to not even bother, and you know it's SO HARD for us academics to do that (especially when we have the data to prove that we're right). ;-)

You're a more patient woman than I, hang in there hon.

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Hear hear Joy!!! You should start your own political blog and give Andrew a run for his money ;) You write excellent and very thoughtful posts.

JL - posted on 06/02/2009

Sara, I have yet to respond to the attack thread. I read it and then turned off my laptop because I unlike some of the other women over there I want to remain as respectful as I can. I ventured to the political debating moms in hope of understanding the views of others and hopefully having them understand mine so that we could find ways to reach a middle ground. As I stated in one post over there..I fear more than anything else that it will not be outside forces but forces from within that destroy this nation and those forces being based on ideological differences. As much as I try over there I feel that certain individuals do not show the same level of respect as I try to show them. It is strange because if they stopped they would realize that in some instances THOUTH THEY ARE FEW we have agreed and those instances should be used as stepping blocks for coming to a middle ground but unfortunately they have been used to call me out and state that my opinions do not make sense. WTF how dare you tell me that my opinions are invalid because I have different views on various issues. As human beings we are complex individuals. How we feel, relate, and believe in not monolothic or simplistic. I may not feel like I personally could ever have an abortion but then again I have not ever been put into an extreme situation where that was a viable and neccesary choice. To be pro-choice does not mean I am pro-abortion or not for having laws and regulations that prevent the abuse of the system. I operate in the believe that it takes a village and that we should never judge someone for the life they have had to lead and the choices they have therefore had to make.



Sara I have not responded yet to the post about taxes and a womens right to make choices concerning her own body. But I want to yell out hello our governments at every level need money in order to operate....they must pay government employees like fireman, police officers and the military..they do this by using taxes. How else are they suppose to protect us and guarantee certain rights if they don't. If you want a public education for your kids, if you want the garbage man to show up and pick up your trash, if you want emergency services, your mailed delivered, if you want cable lines put up...well then you have to pay taxes in order to have those services. It is simple economics and the reality of how an effective government can operate.



Anyways I would like to say thank you to Tawny and Kelly for taking the steps to understand where my opinions are coming from when I post reponses to the issues in the political debating moms community. I thank you for being respectful and for attempting to look out of the box toward a middle ground. I do not mind women from the other side of the political aisle venturing over here as a way of educating themselves about what others think, but I do mind us being attacked over here when this is obviously a support group for women whom in the most part have the same views. It just gets frustrating and I feel like I have to constantly repeat myself, especially in areas that I am trained in. I have a Masters Degree in American history and an undergraduate degree in Polisci and I am currently working on my Ph.D. I have taught at different levels and am probably going to go back to teach college courses once again next semester, so I find it infuriating when I relay facts and evidence in areas in which I have researched in depth and written numerous papers on too only be responded to through a repudiation that is based off some article that is nothing more than an opinion peice or some moron who has used no factual evidence and distorted history in order to prove an absurd point.



Esther I am too a fan of Andrew Sullivan. He is truly a compassionate Christian and a man who wants to work toward a middle ground on the ideological issues that tear us apart because he for one realizes that this nation is completely divided down the middle so we need to work together rather than against one another. He also understand the power of language and how we should not use words that incite others into reacting violently. It is dangerous and irresponsible.



I found one thing interesting last night while watching AC 360... a man who used to write some hateful things with his father about Dr. Tiller wrote a statement about how he and his father never imagined that someone would actually do the very thing that had insuintated in their attacks,( they had stated basically that he was a murderer and someone needed to take him out) but that he now realized how irresponisble and wrong they had been for writings such incendiary things and how he wished they would have chosen the language they used differently and spoke with more positive ways to end aboriton that using hateful and hurtful words to express their feelings. I thought wow someone finally gets the fact that words do hurt and sometimes in the most awful ways and that is one reason why I was infuriated by the GOP during the elections. Yes Palin and McCain were not saying the outrageous hateful racist remarks themselves but Palin used language that incited the hateful speech and she did nothing to calm down the crazies and McCain only did so when things had gotten way to far.



And as far as being called out by Traci well I will eventually will respond to her and let her know that in this forum for the Obama Mamas I felt like it was a place for me to rant and let out my frustrations in a safe way where I would not be attacked. I figure the same thing is going on over there with the conservative moms community in which I will not venture over there in order to spy on her. As other women have stated I came into this forum to speak with liked minded women because if I really wanted to be attacked for my opinions and political affiliation I would call my father in law he is good at that, lol! She is entitled to have the conservative community as a place to express her feelings with liked minded women as I am over here. I will continue to debate over in the debating moms community but I will probably not respond as often to the posts that make me loose my hope in the power of human kindness and the importance of the intellectual acceptance of our differences.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

And I'm loving every second of it. LOL

Rachael - posted on 06/02/2009

Lol, I saw that thread too. But has anyone else noticed that it's been relatively quiet here? Ah...finally, peace!

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

LOL! Esther, we're not made at ya, but we sure do miss you!

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Evelyn:

Quoting Sara:

Thanks Evelyn. I try. :)

They said I should not be over here discussing things with you guys about them, that it's just like liberal to not want to discuss stuff with people who don't agree with them.

Don't I vaguely remember a post with the heading.... "Luckily this is Facebook"....and then going on to tell us, if you don't like what I write, don't read it.?  Well, I think they should follow their own advice. The boat floats both ways, simple as that.

There was an attack on me in that thread too (from you-both-know-who) for being a chicken and leaving the forum. Here I was taking her advice (not reading what she writes because I don't like it - AT ALL) and still getting attacked ;) Sara & Joy, I'm sorry I abandoned you both on there. I'm with you in spirit , I just want the nightmares to stop ;)

Tawny - posted on 06/02/2009

Tawny - as far as I'm concerned - feel free to stick around. We've just had a few people who only joined to stir up trouble.





Thank you~~~And I have read those posts and am sorry that that has happened if I wanted to debate then I would go to the political debate group. I think that some people are so into there beliefs that they don't know what the best way to handle it.. and get hot headed and blow up when they should not follow someone from post to post just to argue with everything they say. It is okay to have your beliefs but there is a time and place to do that and need to be kinder when someone has a different idea or belief. This is a time where we all need to come together and unite so that we can make this world better for our children in the long run. I may not agree with some of the views of the democrats and didn't like Obama but he is our President and Im going to give him the chance he deserves. The last president wasn't great but hey I didn't vote then so I don't have a say. I hope that you all have a good day!

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Tawny:

I hope that Im not upsetting anyone for writing on your post, I dont want you all to think that Im being a spy for the other side. I just like to see how everyone thinks and there beliefs I guess if you can say maybe Im nosy I dont know.. ;) I've never really cared about politics until this year so Im learning about what is going on here and there.. Im more than happy to leave the Obama mamas I just liked reading some of your responses and just had to leave a post. I just don't want you all to think that Im invading your views.

Not at all Tawny...please feel free to stick around.  I think it will be good for all of us.  :)

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Tawny:

I hope that Im not upsetting anyone for writing on your post, I dont want you all to think that Im being a spy for the other side. I just like to see how everyone thinks and there beliefs I guess if you can say maybe Im nosy I dont know.. ;) I've never really cared about politics until this year so Im learning about what is going on here and there.. Im more than happy to leave the Obama mamas I just liked reading some of your responses and just had to leave a post. I just don't want you all to think that Im invading your views.

Tawny - as far as I'm concerned - feel free to stick around. We've just had a few people who only joined to stir up trouble.

Tawny - posted on 06/02/2009

I hope that Im not upsetting anyone for writing on your post, I dont want you all to think that Im being a spy for the other side. I just like to see how everyone thinks and there beliefs I guess if you can say maybe Im nosy I dont know.. ;) I've never really cared about politics until this year so Im learning about what is going on here and there.. Im more than happy to leave the Obama mamas I just liked reading some of your responses and just had to leave a post. I just don't want you all to think that Im invading your views.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Esther:

Quoting Evelyn:

[ ] By the way, we know they come over here and look at what we type, we are facsinating, are we not? On the other hand, I've never gone over and looked at their forum (besides the Cons. Political Discussion Group as you put it lol), no offense to anyone, I'm just not interested.

Evelyn - one particular woman (who shall remain nameless) followed me around for about a week on COM. EVERY thread I posted to (whether it was about politics or not) was followed by a post from her. Not directed at me necessarily, she was just everywhere I was. I almost felt stalked. It really kind of felt like an invasion of my privacy in some weird way (I know I know, it's a public forum, there is no privacy in cyber space etc.).

Esther, sounds to me like this person needs to get a life. Don't  worry about them, they just had WAY too much time on their hands.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Sara:

Thanks Evelyn. I try. :)

They said I should not be over here discussing things with you guys about them, that it's just like liberal to not want to discuss stuff with people who don't agree with them.

Don't I vaguely remember a post with the heading.... "Luckily this is Facebook"....and then going on to tell us, if you don't like what I write, don't read it.?  Well, I think they should follow their own advice. The boat floats both ways, simple as that.

Tawny - posted on 06/02/2009

You are right what I think doesnt matter, women will do whatever they want to do it is there body. I was just saying my opinon I have friends who have had abortionsI dont look down on them and treat them any different I just dont like what they did, but that is there decision that person is still my friend and actually she had the abortion but found out after the abortion that she was still pregnant because she was having twins and some how they aborted one baby she didn't find that out until actually going into labor she didn't know she was pregnant, she didn't look pregnant, Sorry Im going off the subject. I was just giving my belief that I wouldn't get an abortion and that I dont think that is right but Im not saying that they shouldn't do it I cant tell a person what to do they have to make there own decisions.

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Evelyn:

[ ] By the way, we know they come over here and look at what we type, we are facsinating, are we not? On the other hand, I've never gone over and looked at their forum (besides the Cons. Political Discussion Group as you put it lol), no offense to anyone, I'm just not interested.

Evelyn - one particular woman (who shall remain nameless) followed me around for about a week on COM. EVERY thread I posted to (whether it was about politics or not) was followed by a post from her. Not directed at me necessarily, she was just everywhere I was. I almost felt stalked. It really kind of felt like an invasion of my privacy in some weird way (I know I know, it's a public forum, there is no privacy in cyber space etc.).

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Evelyn:

[ ] By the way, we know they come over here and look at what we type, we are facsinating, are we not? On the other hand, I've never gone over and looked at their forum (besides the Cons. Political Discussion Group as you put it lol), no offense to anyone, I'm just not interested.

Evelyn - one particular woman (who shall remain nameless) followed me around for about a week on COM. EVERY thread I posted to (whether it was about politics or not) was followed by a post from her. Not directed at me necessarily, she was just everywhere I was. I almost felt stalked. It really kind of felt like an invasion of my privacy in some weird way (I know I know, it's a public forum, there is no privacy in cyber space etc.).

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Thanks Evelyn. I try. :)



They said I should not be over here discussing things with you guys about them, that it's just like liberal to not want to discuss stuff with people who don't agree with them.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Sara,



This happened to be one of the posts I did read, normally I'm very vocal (as we ALL know lol) but your response hit the nail on the head. I encourage members of this community to go take a look at Sara's awesome response to this query. The Gov't DOESN'T tell us how to spend our money, we pay taxes as a duty, and no they should NOT tell us what to do w/our bodies. The two are completely unrelated, so how on earth can they be conflicting ideals?



By the way, we know they come over here and look at what we type, we are facsinating, are we not? On the other hand, I've never gone over and looked at their forum (besides the Cons. Political Discussion Group as you put it lol), no offense to anyone, I'm just not interested.

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Tawny:

Hi, I have read what everyone has posted. I am from the replub/conserv. Im not here to start trouble. I have read some of your posts on Obama Mamas just because I like to see what everyone believes. Everyone has there own beliefs and that is great that is how it should be. It would be a very boring life if everyone agreed on everything, nothing would get resolved. I think that it is sad from both sides that we can not get along ( Im not saying that it is everyone and Im not targeting anyone either) we are wifes, mothers, sisters and daughters, and I think that we forget that sometimes. We are human beings and we are not perfect. If you think about it we are all alike in some ways. we all don't have to agree on everything we are not bad people as you guys are not bad people either. I don't mean to go on and on I just want you all to know that not all of the repub/conserv. are bad people. There are subjects on here that you have that I dont believe in as we have subjects that you dont believe in.
I do agree with you on this subject of Dr. Tiller no he didn't deserve to be killed in front of his family and church members, no one if they are a bad person or not deserves this. The person who killed him took it upon themselves to punish him when it isn't there place to do this. We are not here to judge, that is where God comes in and I know that some people don't believe that and that is okay. I grew up in the church and am a christian but Im not going to preach to people just because Im a christian. I don't think that Abortion is right (that is just my opinion) and that wouldn't be something that I would do unless it was an extreme situation where the baby wouldn't make it like some of the stories that was in the other post. I don't think that it is right that some women decide that just because they don't want the baby then they go and have an abortion but that is on them and personally it has nothing to do with me so I don't think that I have the right to preach to anyone. We all have to make our own decisions and if some don't like it that is okay I don't think it is right for someone to tell the person that they are going to hell and that they are sinners. That is judging and they need to just say what there beliefs are and not tell anyone else how to run there lives. I hope that I don't upset or offend anyone, that was not my intention and I would not have come on here to start trouble,,, Thank you

But I think the point is Tawny, that what you think about Abortion doesn't matter in people's everyday lives, just like what I think doesn't matter.  We cannot tell someone what to do with a decision that is so personal, you have to give people some credit and rely on them to make the choice that makes sense in their own lives... you can't legislate morality.  They tried it already and it failed.

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Thank you Tawny. I think you might be surprised at how many pro-choice liberal women (especially moms) share your sentiments on abortion. I certainly know I do. I could not imagine having one ever (unless it was in one of the horrifying tragic situations described above), the thought alone makes my skin crawl, but I do want women to have the option to decide for themselves. After the first trimester, I think abortions should only be allowed in extreme situations like incest/rape and when there is an extreme medical reason for it (life of the mother or extreme defects to the baby).

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Ok, I don't want to offend anyone, but here's a question that was posted on the Political Discussion Group (aka the Conservative Political Discussion Group) who all apparently come over here to look at our posts and know that I am over here talking about them to my liberal friends (hi.).





Anyway, read this:





So I've been wondering after having many conversations with the liberal ladies who have joined in on discussions; I want to understand some things. I've heard many of you say that you think abortion is wrong and you would never have one, but you have a problem with the government telling women what to do with their bodies. However you don't seem to care about the government telling you how to spend your money. To me the two ideas seem to contradict. In both situations the government is telling you what to do. Explain to me the difference.









I guess if you can't bring the Moses to the Mountain...I just was wondering what you guys thought about this...

Tawny - posted on 06/02/2009

Hi, I have read what everyone has posted. I am from the replub/conserv. Im not here to start trouble. I have read some of your posts on Obama Mamas just because I like to see what everyone believes. Everyone has there own beliefs and that is great that is how it should be. It would be a very boring life if everyone agreed on everything, nothing would get resolved. I think that it is sad from both sides that we can not get along ( Im not saying that it is everyone and Im not targeting anyone either) we are wifes, mothers, sisters and daughters, and I think that we forget that sometimes. We are human beings and we are not perfect. If you think about it we are all alike in some ways. we all don't have to agree on everything we are not bad people as you guys are not bad people either. I don't mean to go on and on I just want you all to know that not all of the repub/conserv. are bad people. There are subjects on here that you have that I dont believe in as we have subjects that you dont believe in.

I do agree with you on this subject of Dr. Tiller no he didn't deserve to be killed in front of his family and church members, no one if they are a bad person or not deserves this. The person who killed him took it upon themselves to punish him when it isn't there place to do this. We are not here to judge, that is where God comes in and I know that some people don't believe that and that is okay. I grew up in the church and am a christian but Im not going to preach to people just because Im a christian. I don't think that Abortion is right (that is just my opinion) and that wouldn't be something that I would do unless it was an extreme situation where the baby wouldn't make it like some of the stories that was in the other post. I don't think that it is right that some women decide that just because they don't want the baby then they go and have an abortion but that is on them and personally it has nothing to do with me so I don't think that I have the right to preach to anyone. We all have to make our own decisions and if some don't like it that is okay I don't think it is right for someone to tell the person that they are going to hell and that they are sinners. That is judging and they need to just say what there beliefs are and not tell anyone else how to run there lives. I hope that I don't upset or offend anyone, that was not my intention and I would not have come on here to start trouble,,, Thank you

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Esther,



They don't call us the "soft-hearted liberals" for nothing. :-) Little do they know, I take it as a compliment! I just took a gander over there and honestly only perused a few of the posts and just had to leave. Intolerance is another one of my famous 'pet peeves' and there is a wealth of that over there. So much hate, so sad. Posts like Kelly's and Sara's really stick out because of their reasonable and civil nature, a few of the others were just repeats of the nonsense we just recently had to put up with in this community. (not all because I didn't bother to read through much of it...)

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Just one other little thing - my absolute favorite political blog is actually written by a self-prescribed conservative: Andrew Sullivan (www.dailydish.com). If you don't know him, he's a fiscal conservative, devout catholic, supported Bush in 2000, supported the invasion of Iraq, can't stand the Clintons and is pro-life. However, he was disgusted with the fiscal policies of the Bush administration, supported Kerry in 2004 (for lack of a better alternative), supported Obama wholeheartedly in 2008 (although in the early stages of the primaries he supported McCain as well), can see the nuance in the abortion debate (the stories above all came from his readers), is HUGELY upset with the torture policies of the previous administration, came to see that invading Iraq might not have been such smart thing after all, and is gay and married (at least in MA). He's also British, has HIV, has lived in the US for decades but can't get citizenship because of his HIV status and may soon have to leave the country. All in all, a very interesting character and a writer with a lot of integrity.

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

Kelly - Thanks for restoring my faith in conservatives - haha. I don't doubt that we could find much common ground and also much to disagree on. I tried to have a few civil discussions with some women on the other side of the isle but things quickly got heated and out of control. I tend to get very emotional over things that I am passionate about and having these discussions sometimes literally takes my breath away out of frustration. So for my own health, I decided to leave the Moms Discussing Politics circle. Maybe one day I'll rejoin when I am better able to keep my emotions in check ;)

Kelly - posted on 06/02/2009

First, good on ya for owning up lol. I too sense we could have some great discussions. Second, I see your point about the "hotheads", and my fear is that it is sometimes hard to see the forest through the trees. Where would we be if (God forbid) you thought all Conservatives were in love with Bush, and I thought all liberals were carbon copies of Nancy Pelosi? (Sorry if that offends, that is one woman I will NEVER understand) I really appreciate you all allowing me to express my thoughts in your forum, and I hope that someday we can talk again about other important issues. On abortion, we can agree to agree! Progress made! :-) Until the next time, take care!

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Kelly,



Please don't think that I'm stereotyping all of you in that group. I apologize if that was what I insinuated, it was not my intent. I just know of several "hotheads" in that community that I just cannot deal w/on an intelligent or productive level. I just know my limitations. You do seem to be someone with whom I could have several lively debates with though! Your invite is very gracious and who knows, never say never!



Oh...an afterthought...I know you didn't point out any specific person, I was just owning up to it lolol. :-)

Kelly - posted on 06/02/2009

Evelyn,



I really wasn't thinking of any specific instance or person when I mentioned ignorance on both sides, I just know it has happened. I never posted to any of those threads mainly because I thought they had gotten out of control. When reason goes out the window, there is no room for discussion. I agree that it is offensive when people do a "drive by" on a thread in your group, our group or any group. I don't get the point other than to rile people up and bring out the worst in them. I have unfortunately gotten into it on some issues that I am unwilling to back down on, with my fellow conservatives, go figure! lol. I do laugh at your comment about debating with your family and friends, because I too enjoy "discussion" with my liberal family members and friends. Ours tend to get quite heated at times as well, but we generally tend to agree to disagree. I'm sorry I won't be seeing you in the "debate" I really do think you are very smart, and you usually provide factual back-up to your views. That being said, maybe someday you will change your mind........ until then, please just try to refrain from grouping us all together based on the actions of a few. I try to do the same with people of a more liberal stance.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Kelly,



Thanks for the invite over to the debating moms community, but like I mentioned before, I'll be passing on that one. While I like to think I conduct myself in an upstanding and respectful manner, there have been a few instances on this forum that I have stepped outside of my normal behavior pattern. One of my pet peeves is being talked "at", being spoken or referred to in a condescending manner or in that syrupy sweet "I'm speaking so nicely w/all these smiles and winks and laughs, but really I'm being a huge bit*&" type of way. While I'm sure you are referring to myself, a few other ladies and a few from your side of the aisle when you mention "ignorance", I usually do not behave like that. I cannot disagree that some of my words were very harsh and perhaps a bit bitc&y as well. It's one thing to come into a community where your ideas/ideals are different and engage in healthy convo/debate w/the members, it's a whole different issue when you come in and behave in an offensive and bullying manner. So I felt I had to say something, and while most of my comments were not directed at the offending individuals, they certainly hit their mark as you can see in other convo threads. Like Rachael, I have MANY MANY (lol) conservative family members and friends with whom I also debate and discuss issues w/in a respectful and civilized manner...(most of the time, it CAN get pretty heated once in a while, but they are fam/friends..so we get over it and move on).

Rachael - posted on 06/02/2009

Hello Kelly! Thank you for taking the time and writing such a well thought out post and for your encouragement. Often we have not seen that in this forum from the conservative perspective. It is very refreshing to hear from the "other side" in such a considerate, civilized manner. Do not worry about "trespassing", as long as conversations stay civil with good intentions, you are more than welcome here. :-)

(I'm not a Christian, but I'll give you the Buddhist equivalent of "God bless") Namaste!

Kelly - posted on 06/02/2009

Hi Ladies,



I have ventured over here from the Republican/Conservative Moms to read before, just to get an idea of how the "other side" sees things. I have never felt compelled to post until now. I have to say, that even though I consider myself a very conservative person, I agree with you all totally on this issue. While I myself don't think I could ever have an abortion, I have always been pro-choice. My one liberal weakness :-) Evelyn, it was your post that I really connected with. I too cannot understand the people that use abortion as birth control, or because it wasn't the "right time". As mothers I think we can all agree that it is never truly the right time, but our children are all gifts from God. At the same time, I cannot imagine the pain and heartbreak of knowing my unborn child had severe defects and may or may not live after birth. Who knows what I would do in that situation after a lot of praying and soul searching? As a Christian, I try to live my life the way God wants me too, but I NEVER pretend to know others' relationships with God. I truly believe it is not our place to judge others, and I sometimes feel others tend to judge without realizing it. I too have recently joined the debating community, and it saddens me that some of you don't want to join, and others are ready to leave. I really thought that group could be a way for us all to share our different views without attacking and sniping as has been done in the past when we cross over into each others territory. I did read Sara's post in there on this same issue, and I thought some of the comments made by Conservatives were very close minded and harsh. I would be very interested to see how they might respond to Esther's post.



I don't agree with a lot of you on many subjects, but I hope that maybe more of you could join the debating group just to balance it out so Sara and Joy aren't the only frequent liberal voices. While I see the need for validation, especially after being "attacked" for your views (from both sides) sometimes it is nice to have an educated debate on issues without name calling and personal jabs. While I have seen examples of ignorance in both of our groups, there are many intelligent, educated women in both groups and I just think it would be nice to expand the thinking on both sides. Sorry for rambling, and thanks for (Hopefully) accepting my post for what it is and not a "Conservative" trespassing. God Bless,



Kelly

Rachael - posted on 06/02/2009

Lol. There really is no point in wasting our time or energy on those people and the insanity that spews forth. Thankfully I have a few sane conservatives in my family that are willing to actually engage in a real debate (without the personal attacks, etc...), so I utilize them instead. ;-)

If anyone is interested, there's a really good book by Susan Jacoby, "The Age of American Unreason" that discusses a great deal of the insanity and anti-intellectualism that we've had to endure for the past eight years.

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

Like I said before, I won't go over the debating moms community because it just isn't a debate. It's a freaking attack on anyone who won't listen to the nonsense they believe. No amount of fact, logic or sheer common sense will get through to any of them over there. I figure, why bother?

Evelyn - posted on 06/02/2009

I second that Sara!

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Thank God for you ladies in Obama Mamas!!! I like being validated and listened to by rational people! :)

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

They make it sound like this guy was just indiscriminately doing late-term abortions on anybody that wanted them and also coercing people into getting them. It's disgusting, it truly is.

Esther - posted on 06/02/2009

OMG Sara - they are getting nuttier by the minute aren't they. I withdrew from that community yesterday. It's just not good for my health to read the rants of these people. They scare the hell out of me. The more stories I read from women like the ones I've posted before, who needed late term abortions for medical reasons, the sadder I am about the whole Dr Tiller story. I think they are now down to 2 clinics in the country where they are still willing to perform these abortions. And how many of those doctors will be willing to continue to put their lives on the line to help these women? I think abortion as an after-the-fact form of contraception is terrible, but there have to be options for people like these. Not to mention for those poor babies who are otherwise only born to suffer needlessly until they die anyway. These are heartwrenching and very very personal decisions that we should not interfere with. It should truly be between the woman and her doctor.

Sara - posted on 06/02/2009

Evelyn-your comments are always great! Thanks for your thoughtful insight!



Joy-I'm not sure if I can continue in the "Political discussion" group, I don't want to leave you there all by your lonesome, but I was floored by that ladies comments yesterday about how she hopes Dr. Tiller is in hell. And the bible beating that goes on over there...oy! I'll hang in there with you, but some of the things people have stated on there make me physically ill...the ignorance is ridiculous. One woman actually said that when GW was presdient, she didn't worry about the country, but now that Obama's in office, she thinks that he wants to facilitate the downfall of the government because tthat is what his ACORN buddies want to do. WTF? She got that info from Glenn Beck by the way...oh, Fox news...

Evelyn - posted on 06/01/2009

I applaud you ladies who dare to venture over to the political debating moms community. I won't even look at what's going on because I am just floored by the ignorance that I have seen coming from some of these women. Where do they get their info?? Does Faux news have secret websites or something that they copy and paste this crap from? For example, I was having a great time at the park this morning w/my daughter and she started playing with a little girl around her age. Her grandmother and I were having a pleasant convo about children, weather, etc..etc...and things somehow turned political. I think we were talking about ridiculous NY taxes...so she starts pointing fingers @ Patterson..(who really inherited a whole mess from Spitzer who in turn got it from Pataki..etc..etc..) so as I'm speaking w/her...it turns out that she reallllllllly dislikes the man. So I pressed her for more info, asking her for specific reasons why. Of course she couldn't give me any, just started spouting off how horrible taxes are. Come to find out...she rents. WTF?? Why the heck are you complaining about taxes when you don't even pay them??? She was a huge McCain/Palin supporter of course, and didn't have a CLUE why. I just had to shake my head and laugh. People really need to do some fact checking BEFORE they do so much finger pointing. Dr. Tiller's case is a perfect example.

Andrea, I am also Christian as well as pro-life, but I do support "abortion" when it poses a severe health risk to the mom, a fatal birth defect for the baby or in cases of rape/incest. I don't really see it as abortion in those cases though, it is simply the most medically responsible way of dealing with a lose/lose situation.

Rachael, unfortunately I've known women who have had "haphazard" abortions and it pisses me off. I don't always succeed since I'm only human, but I try not to pass judgment on another persons decisions, because I've made plenty of bad choices of my own, but to have an abortion because it's "not the right time" is simply selfish. You deny someone their right to live, because the timing is off?? Seriously? My daughter was a *surprise* and definitely unplanned and the timing was wayyyyyyyy off...I was 24, working part-time and other aspects of my life were not in line the way ideally I would have wanted them. But from the second I knew I was pregnant (well, after the shock had worn off), I loved my daughter....I cherished the life that was growing inside of me and I thanked God every day for her. It's because of this that I am so sympathetic of these women who have to make this horrific choice to have this procedure done, and also why I'm so horrified when some use it as a convenience.

Andrea - posted on 06/01/2009

I am very pro-life. I am also a Christian. However, I believe Dr. Tiller's murder is horrible. Murder is horrible & in his church in front of his child- I can't even imagine who would do such a thing.