How do you feel about torture?

JL - posted on 05/29/2009

Here is how I see it....If you are willing to use torture in the name of "protection" and because we say hey the enemy does worse... then what platform can we stand on when countries like Korea, China, Iran, and Pakistan whom already have issues with us starting torturing or using "enhanced techniques" on the reporters, missionaries, and US civilians who they detain based on the ridiciulous assertion that they maybe spies. I am afraid that these countries and it is highly possible will see that we have stepped over that line too many times and be fueled to think then why can't they in the name of "protection." We will loose the moral ground on which to protest the international community because we chose to ignore the international agreements toward torture. We are as many of us know an example for the rest of the world whether good or bad what we do is used to justify the actions taken by other. AND our treatment of the detainees does fuel our enemies, this has been proven.

Sara - posted on 05/29/2009

Torture does not protect us from "wackos". As John McCain said, and I agree with, "(torture) serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us". It's just adding fuel to the fire.

Dawn - posted on 05/28/2009

If there is a method out there that works better on getting information fine then use it. But so far I haven't heard of anything and I want my country and other countries to be protected from these wackos. So in my opion yes if it gets the job done then so be it.

JL - posted on 05/28/2009

In my opinon too many people oversimplify what waterboarding exaclty is. I don't know if just stating the it only "simulates" drowning makes people feel better about okaying it or what but it is much more that simply have someone getting pour buckets of water on someone or as Dick Cheney has described it as a dunk in the water. There are two forms of waterboarding. In one form the water poured over the person goes directly down into the nasal passages and throat sometimes this is done by directly forcing through a tube a steady form of water down the throat and nasal passages which amounts to a slow form of drowning. The individual is strapped down and tilted back. You do not need to be actually be placed into water to drown remember people have chocked to death and pretty much drowned in their own bodily fluids. The second form occurs when buckets of water are poured upon the person who is strapped down and tilted back while they are also covered on the face by either a cloth or cellophane. In this case the person is tricked into feeling as if they are drowning which is where people get the idea of "simulated" drowning, but it is much more than a simulation. The person reacts by gagging, chocking, gasping and suffocating due to the cover, the water, and the mental and physical reaction . It is basically suffocating someone and it is a mock execution because it leads them to believe that they are suffocating to death.



It was false information obtained by waterboarding that was used as part of the Bush administration's justification for going into Iraq. I think it is also telling that some of the men like Mancow whom argued that waterboarding was not torture and who voluntarily went through it to expereince it and prove to everyone it was not ended up after their waterboarding experience publicly admitting that it was a form of torture. It is also been admitted that despite the CIA guidelines concerning waterboarding it has been used far more times than the guidelines permit and with far more amounts of water than they had intially reported. Sources in the CIA have also admitted that despite the guidelines and assurance that waterboarding is only used on the highest and most henious of detainees it has been knowingly used on lowly members of terrorists organiztions. In a number of these cases it was done after the men already gave the CIA every bit of information they had, yet even though the CIA knew they could not offer any more information or anything significant they still repeatedly waterboarded the subject at the request of higher officials who often watched. This sounds to me like torture not gaining information for national security.

Evelyn - posted on 05/28/2009

I don't see how equating what they did to us or others as is a way of justifying torture? So is that saying we are no better than them? We don't have to resort to torture to get the information we need. As a country we are better than that. I am hopeful that diplomacy is making its way back into Wash. D.C and alternate forms of interrogation will be used.

Amanda - posted on 05/28/2009

I agree Sara. If a parent did this to their child or a husband did this to his wife, just because it doesn't cause bodily harm doesn't mean it wouldn't be abuse. These people are supposed to be some of the most intelligent people in the country, that's why we allow them to be our leaders. Somehow I think they can come up with more ethical "mind tricks" than this.

Sara - posted on 05/28/2009

I really don't understand how "simulating" drowning isn't torture? That really confuses me...

Dawn - posted on 05/27/2009

Also, I'm all for anything that will keep my children and friends safe from these nuts!

Dawn - posted on 05/27/2009

I find that if the person wasn't hurt and it does get the info we need to defend and protect our country then yes. All that waterboarding is to simulate drowning but the person isn't drowning. We are not using (to my knowlege) the rack, whips and chains nothing to hurt the body. They are using mind tricks. Its better than what they do to our own people that they have physically hurt. Remember Jessica, she still walks with a cane I wonder if she was raped too, all the beheadings.

JL - posted on 05/26/2009

After 9-11 I was so worried because so many things were being green lighted and I felt that we needed to take step back because many of the things being passed and allowed did not represent us at all. I for one was totally against the Patriot Act and was ashamed that Democrats in droves did not speak out enough against it. I wrote my Democratic representatives many angry letters for not only accepting but voting for an act that violated civil and criminal rights.



On the issue of torture I applauded John McCain I know it was weird to agree with a Republican but at the time when the issue came up in the early 2000s, he was the only one in Washington to stand up against it. He gave an amazing speech about how he as a POW who experienced toture could never stand by anything that even closely resembled toture. He stood up against Bush and stated that some of the enhanced techniques in his view were torture. A number of POWs including soldiers who as part of there training during the 1950s were waterboarded spoke out and stated that waterboarding was torture and not part of what they US stands for. I believe that as part of the international community and as one of the democratic powers we have committed ourselves to certain ideals and laws. It is hypocritical of us to stand up against those when it seems fit for us.Plus we have a history where we decided long ago that we would define waterboarding as torture. I do understand your mix emotions because I too am often unsure on how I feel about what constitutes an enhanced technique and what is torture. I want us safe but I don't want us to loose our humanity and become no better that those who attacked us out of hate and fanatacism.

Jacquee - posted on 05/24/2009

I don't think that you are being hypocritical at all. The 9/11 attach is a very emotional issues and I have found myself with conflicting thoughts as well. I have mix emotions about the whole thing. I still get emotional when I see 9:11 on anything and it's been a long time. I think we are going to have issue with this for a very long time. So you're entitled to have have mix emotions on the subject, because I know that I do.

Sandi - posted on 05/24/2009

It is shameful. In trying to get rid of the terrorists... they became terrorists. It is war crimes! The whole bunch of them should go to jail.

Sara - posted on 05/22/2009

I agree...I don't think torture has made us safer. From what I understand it ends in a lot of false confessions, so how is that even useful in the first place? Also, when they say it has made us safer, they cite that we haven't been attacked in the US since 9/11. How is that proof that we were safer? Americans are still being attacked on foreign soil, so just because they haven't come back in the US doesn't prove much to me. In fact, terrorists' influence in other parts of the world has seemed to increase....

Amanda - posted on 05/22/2009

The way I look at it, two wrongs don't make a right. We are at war with these people because we find the way they treat people inhumane, immoral, and completly appalling. Should we really make ourselves as bad as them? The reason other countries hate us so much is because we are so hypocritical in our actions, and because we are such bullies. Honestly how does torturing them make us safer? If anything it makes them want to distroy us even more.



I can understand the way you felt after 9/11 Theresa. I think at that point we all just wanted justice so badly that it was like we went back to Machivelli, the ends justify the means. But looking back I can see more clearly now and don't believe torture is ever the answer. We are a better nation than that and I am so glad we now have a leader who feels the same.

Sara - posted on 05/22/2009

This is a hot topic, I got into an argument on another thread about this....



I, myself, am against any kind of torture. I don't think it should be used. I'm with President Obama. In his speech at the national archives he said:



"I know some have argued that brutal methods like waterboarding were necessary to keep us safe. I could not disagree more. As Commander-in-Chief, I see the intelligence. I bear the responsibility for keeping this country safe. And I categorically reject the assertion that these are the most effective means of interrogation. (Applause.) What's more, they undermine the rule of law. They alienate us in the world. They serve as a recruitment tool for terrorists, and increase the will of our enemies to fight us, while decreasing the will of others to work with America. They risk the lives of our troops by making it less likely that others will surrender to them in battle, and more likely that Americans will be mistreated if they are captured. In short, they did not advance our war and counterterrorism efforts -- they undermined them, and that is why I ended them once and for all. (Applause.)



Now, I should add, the arguments against these techniques did not originate from my administration. As Senator McCain once said, torture "serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us." And even under President Bush, there was recognition among members of his own administration -- including a Secretary of State, other senior officials, and many in the military and intelligence community -- that those who argued for these tactics were on the wrong side of the debate, and the wrong side of history. That's why we must leave these methods where they belong -- in the past. They are not who we are, and they are not America."



This is why I voted for him...he echoes my sentiments exactly.



But, I don't think you should feel bad about "green-lighting" torture after 9/11. We all had a very visceral response to that tragedy. Unfortunately, I think that the former administration used that response and the resulting fear to do some things that are morally and legally questionable. I think the President is right though, we have to leave that all in the past and move ahead, keeping in mind the principles that guided this nation for over 200 years, freedom, fairness, equality, and dignity, and adhere to them...

Sara - posted on 05/22/2009

This is a hot topic, I got into an argument on another thread about this....



I, myself, am against any kind of torture. I don't think it should be used. I'm with President Obama. In his speech at the national archives he said:



"I know some have argued that brutal methods like waterboarding were necessary to keep us safe. I could not disagree more. As Commander-in-Chief, I see the intelligence. I bear the responsibility for keeping this country safe. And I categorically reject the assertion that these are the most effective means of interrogation. (Applause.) What's more, they undermine the rule of law. They alienate us in the world. They serve as a recruitment tool for terrorists, and increase the will of our enemies to fight us, while decreasing the will of others to work with America. They risk the lives of our troops by making it less likely that others will surrender to them in battle, and more likely that Americans will be mistreated if they are captured. In short, they did not advance our war and counterterrorism efforts -- they undermined them, and that is why I ended them once and for all. (Applause.)



Now, I should add, the arguments against these techniques did not originate from my administration. As Senator McCain once said, torture "serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us." And even under President Bush, there was recognition among members of his own administration -- including a Secretary of State, other senior officials, and many in the military and intelligence community -- that those who argued for these tactics were on the wrong side of the debate, and the wrong side of history. That's why we must leave these methods where they belong -- in the past. They are not who we are, and they are not America."



This is why I voted for him...he echoes my sentiments exactly.



But, I don't think you should feel bad about "green-lighting" torture after 9/11. We all had a very visceral response to that tragedy. Unfortunately, I think that the former administration used that response and the resulting fear to do some things that are morally and legally questionable. I think the President is right though, we have to leave that all in the past and move ahead, keeping in mind the principles that guided this nation for over 200 years, freedom, fairness, equality, and dignity, and adhere to them...