Abortion

Lacye - posted on 12/03/2010

Yeah. I think it's time to shut this one down. lol. there is starting to get way too much hostility. I have already stated that I don't agree with abortions but I'm not going to judge some one that does have it done and they certainly aren't "so stupid they deserve the consequences." That is going way over the top and is harsh and unnecessary.

Mary Renee - posted on 12/03/2010

Also, Brittany...



You said you never called anyone that had an abortion any bad names but your exact words were :



"I also realize that even if abortions are illegal there will still be "backyard abortions" but if a woman is stupid enough to do it then I guess she deserves the consequences.."



... last time I checked "stupid" was a bad name people don't like being called. Or we could all call you "stupid" for "forgetting" that you did call women "stupid," since apparently you don't find that at all offensive.



No woman deserves the be limited to pregnancy or potential death... it's bad enough that we have to go through pregnancy while the men who caused it sit around drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, eating lunch meats and medium rare steaks, sleeping on their stomachs, and NOT gaining weight. If anything women should be SUPPORTIVE and UNDERSTANDING of each other, not deeming them "so stupid they deserve the consequences"

Mary Renee - posted on 12/03/2010

In response to Kelly Hazel's earlier inquiry,

The reason I would never have an abortion but I support other women's right to have one is because I'm a very sentimental person and I was attached to my baby as soon as I really got a grasp on the fact that she was in there.

I was not married, still in college, and this was an unplanned pregnancy happening 5,000 miles away from any friends or family. Alot of women in my situation would have had an abortion, and when four or five of my friends found out I was pregnant, they admited to me that they had had abortions in their past. Some of them were teenagers when they had them, some of them were in abusive relationships. I don't look down on them for having abortions in their individual situations.

I think "ethics" is very personal. If one person feels like it's ethically wrong to have an abortion, then they shouldn't have one. If another person feels like it's not ethically wrong and they have one, that's their thing too. I mean, I can see both sides. On one hand, a human embryo in the early weeks isn't that much different than a bird or a fish or a lizard embryo. If you have an early abortion, some people can accept that. However if you actually want the baby and feel attached to it, then you're in love with the potential daughter or son that embryo is going to be so it's a totally different thing, mentally.

Half of life is all in our heads anyway.

I mean, it's possible to support gay marriage with out being gay. It's possible to support different religions right to practice with out actually practicing their religion. You can be pro-choice knowing you wouldn't have one. (as a side note, I am in no way comparing sexuality or religion to abortion because I don't think someone's sexuality should fall in the same category or have the same implications or associations as abortion, it was just an example of how someone can support something with out being that something)

Barb - posted on 12/03/2010

Brittany, your comment about a woman going for a backyard abortion getting what she deserved was extremely hateful.



It's the lack of compassion and empathy delivered with willful ignorance that probably drew the defensive bitchy side. Although i can't be completely sure.

Kate CP - posted on 12/03/2010

I proved your comment about tubal ligations and vasectomies being "fool proof" methods of birth control wrong.

Jaime - posted on 12/03/2010

You keep talking about hateful and bitchy...but the only person I see being hateful and bitchy is you, Brittany.

Brie - posted on 12/03/2010

What do you mean am I the pot or the kettle?? I'm not offended because you didn't agree and there was nothing you proved me wrong on... I got mad because instead of a reasonable conversation people had to start writing comments that were hateful and bitchy... I didn't start getting bitchy until it happened to me!! That was bull shit!!!

Jessica - posted on 12/03/2010

Abortion is not for me but I wouldn't turn my back on a friend or family member who chose that option. Id rather see an abortion then another baby in a shoe box left for dead on the news. So many people are judged for adoption that they feel abortion is the only option because most of the time no one would ever know they had one. How do you hide a bump for the 6months your likely to be showing and then pass it off as dramatic weight loss? Thats a pretty big challenge

Toni - posted on 12/03/2010

Rebecca, I feel that when a fetuses heart stops beating, whether there be an actual visible reason or not that is showing a defect, it is the same with adults, there are not always explanations as to why someone died sometimes their body is just not strong enough to go on.

"Plus, you aren't addressing the non-implantation issue, which was really the point of the statement. I realize you aren't agreeing with the "life-begins-at conception" point, but the point was that 50% don't implant (hence, "life" can't really be that valueable). Are you asserting that 50% of fertilized eggs (zygotes/embryos) aren't healthy? I find that hard to believe."

This is a moot point I have already stated that I believe life begins at implantation, a zygote is not a life it is just a cluster of cells. So it has nothing to do how valuable life is. I have never said that only healthy zygotes implant, a zygote can only implant in certain conditions, so if the conditions are not there implantation is simply not possible. Again that does not devalue life because life begins at implantation IMO.

Toni - posted on 12/03/2010

Brittany, I agree with you that when you choose to have sex, as an adult you should understand that it could end in pregnancy and you should be prepared to take the responsibility for the outcomes of your actions. If you don't want children you should take all precautions possible to ensure that your sex does not end up in pregnancy, without resorting to permanent measures you can still be very thoroughly protected. However, I cannot agree with the desparate people who would choose to have a back street abortion being to blame if it goes wrong.

"You have two choices... Have the baby adopt it out or raise it, or go have a "backyard abortion" and have a great risk of death... why does she need sympathy?? she knew the consequences if she does it and it goes bad then that is her fault..."

Yes it is a silly choice to make to go get a back street abortion but people sometimes are so truely desparate that they are not thinking clearly and they cannot see the wood for the trees - they honestly believe it is their only option. Do you view people who attempt suicide in the same harsh manner? Both these groups of people are desparate and can see no other way out yet both just need help and guidance and yes a little sympathy goes a long way to helping people make better choices. Berating them and telling them how stupid they are will only push them further into making a wrong and very dangerous choice.

Jo - posted on 12/03/2010

They weren't hateful for no reason, they told you exactly why they were being hateful. But hey, bitches be bitches. If you're not being a bitch, then don't worry about bitches :D

Buncha classless -hateful!- bitches! :p

Jo - posted on 12/02/2010

If you keep banging your head off the desk, then yes, it very well could be Dana! :p

Chatty - posted on 12/02/2010

*bangs head off desk REPEATEDLY*

Seriously, CoMs is gonna be the death of me!

Jaime - posted on 12/02/2010

haha...I know eh? How is it that someone can insist that everyone else bring their big girl panties to the fight and then forget her own?

Kate CP - posted on 12/02/2010

Seriously...why do some people get SO damn offended when you disagree with them and PROVE they are wrong?

Kate CP - posted on 12/02/2010

Wow...this thread is reminding me of another thread in DM that has been giving me the giggles for a while now.

Jaime - posted on 12/02/2010

Um...so are you the pot or the kettle then, Brittany?

Brie - posted on 12/02/2010

Well lets think about this for a minute... You have two choices... Have the baby adopt it out or raise it, or go have a "backyard abortion" and have a great risk of death... why does she need sympathy?? she knew the consequences if she does it and it goes bad then that is her fault... and no barb a child doesn't know better you can't use that in comparison... you have good in bad in all walks of life I just kind of thought it was neat about the famous adopted kids... and in all honesty it pretty much is if you want to have kids have sex if you don't want kids don't have sex and if you do be prepared for the responsibility this is how it happens naturally... a doctor doesn't naturally go in and kill a child... and to be honest not one time did i call those who are for or have had abortions on here any bad names and i never attacked anybody on here so please tell me why a couple of you deemed it necessary to post a reply being a bitch instead of having a conversation... The OP asked my beliefs and I shared them don't be shitty at me because you don't like them.. pull up your big girl panties and get over it!!!

Isobel - posted on 12/02/2010

or at least practicing? ;)

it was actually terrible...they were together for almost six years...nothing...then they broke up and got together for just one night...poof.

Barb - posted on 12/02/2010

to Laura? poor Lady!! Nooooooooooooooooooo It's been 17 years for us. still no baby. But we keep tryin!

Isobel - posted on 12/02/2010

I knew a woman who had unprotected sex with the same man for 6 years...then got knocked up...surprise!

Barb - posted on 12/02/2010

Brittany, i was asking Kelly for clarification of her statement. If pro-life and non-choice are not interchangeable, what are the choices. I understand now the "choices" for pro-life are all pre-conception choices but once conception happens it's non-choice until miscarriage or birth.

I have always been curious as to why, when i go in for one of my RF procedures that are done with an X-Ray machine they make me do a pregnancy test. I tell them i've been having unprotected sex with the same fixed man for many years and i haven't gotten preggers yet, but yet they still insist i pee in that little cup. boxes must be checked i guess. If the wrong one is check there will be heads a rollin and some serious questions being asked!!

I've read through everyones' statements after yours and there isn't anything for me to add. They have all pretty much said everything i was going to say right down to the heartless last statement you made. Like seeing a child with burns and saying "well you were the dumbass that touched the boiling pot of water, you deserved it, didn't you see it was hot?"

Rebecca - posted on 12/02/2010

@Toni -- a little off topic, but I disagree anyway. In 50% of miscarriages, there is no explanation for why it occured. Approximately 50% are "supposedly" due to genetic issues, but no one really knows for sure. There are many women who have multiple miscarriages for no known reason. I know three women who have had miscarriages/stillbirths at 3, 5 and 7 months (respectively) where there was no indication of any health issues with the fetus -- the deaths were "unexplained" (yes, autopsies were done). Plus, you aren't addressing the non-implantation issue, which was really the point of the statement. I realize you aren't agreeing with the "life-begins-at conception" point, but the point was that 50% don't implant (hence, "life" can't really be that valueable). Are you asserting that 50% of fertilized eggs (zygotes/embryos) aren't healthy? I find that hard to believe.

Toni - posted on 12/02/2010

"If life begins at conception, and abortion is murder, wouldn’t that make “God”, nature, whoever the greatest mass murder ever??? Or at least make it pretty clear that not all “human life” is worthy of preservation (since 50% of embryos die)?"

Rebecca a miscarriage is natures way of ending a pregnancy that isn't viable and quite often where the fetus is already dead, there are very few miscarriages where healthy fetuses are expelled from the uterus. An abortion expels healthy fetuses from the uterus (except in medically necessary abortions).So really they cannot be compared.

For me life begins at implantation because before then the zygote is just a group of cells floating around. Although I do realise that everybody has a different idea as to when life begins.

Rebecca - posted on 12/02/2010

Brittany: my sister was the product of a vasectomy failure. It can and does happen. Obviously, my parents choose to have her (she was born in 1975, so abortion was legal at the time). In general, I think pro-lifers tend to view the world in very black and white terms. You "chose" to have sex -- now deal with the consequences. Of course, they never consider that abortion is one of the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy. A pregnant woman’s options are carry the child and possibly regret that, give the child up for adoption and possibly regret that, or have an abortion and possibly regret that. It's not my place to dictate to someone else what they should do with their own body because of my personal beliefs. I believe an individual woman is in the best position to judge whether or not she should or wants to bring a child into the world. It's no one else's concern. BTW, sex is intentional (in most cases); pregnancy is not. You can't "make" yourself pregnant -- you can try or you can try not to be, but either way things don't always go as planned. Abortion is an alternative that every woman has the right to have when things don't go as planned. No one goes out and "tries" to get pregnant just so they can experience an abortion. Never had one myself, but I have had friends who have (and have never expressed anything but gladness over having the choice to have it done). I one hundred percent support a women's right to control her own body, regardless of what the reasons are that she chooses not to continue a pregnancy. I don’t place any “week” limits on when it’s OK vs. not. It’s not my body and the Federal government has placed those restrictions already anyway. As to the people who are advocating adoption, as the mother of two, I can tell you that no women should be compelled to carry a child she doesn't want when there are other options. Pregnancy isn't a cake walk, includes very real risks to a women's health, and permanently alters your body. A woman shouldn’t be forced to go through that when she doesn’t have to. Plus, it’s impossible to hide a pregnancy, which means the women is subject to scrutiny and scorn regarding her pregnancy and plans to “give away” her child. Not to mention the fact that women are neither livestock nor slaves. BTW, I think the “life begins at conception” argument is completely illogical. An embryo doesn’t even implant until 8 to 10 days AFTER conception and a woman isn’t even pregnant until implantation is successful. Scientists estimate that 50% of embryos don’t implant or don’t implant successfully. And the miscarriage (AKA spontaneous abortion) rate in early pregnancy is very high. If life begins at conception, and abortion is murder, wouldn’t that make “God”, nature, whoever the greatest mass murder ever??? Or at least make it pretty clear that not all “human life” is worthy of preservation (since 50% of embryos die)?

Rosie - posted on 12/02/2010

no it doesn't jamie, past experience has told me it just eats penises up when it finally gets the chance to!! bahahaha!!

Toni - posted on 12/02/2010

"I also realize that even if abortions are illegal there will still be "backyard abortions" but if a woman is stupid enough to do it then I guess she deserves the consequences.."

Really, I am pro-life and even I think that is harsh, the women who have back street abortions are truely desparate women and need support and guidance not spiteful nasty you deserve what you gets!

Jaime - posted on 12/02/2010

Does it sew itself shut after being involuntarily out of commission for a long time? If so then I have nothing to worry about!

LaCi - posted on 12/02/2010

Thats why we need to sew peoples vaginas closed. Or so I'm guessing.

Rosie - posted on 12/02/2010

besides the fact that sterilization isn't 100% effective, just because someone doesn't want a kid right now doesn't mean he/she doesn't want one later in life.

Jenny - posted on 12/02/2010

"Everybody knows that there are only three fool proof ways to not get pregnant which are celibacy, vasectomy for the man, and tubes tied for the woman... "

Not true! Your body can regenerate. I've had a tubal where each tube was clamped in two places with the section in the middle removed. Sounds pretty fool proof right? 1 in 1000 women will conceive after this! I had mine done with a Csection and I was only 28 so my rate is even higher. Really, the only fool proof way is a hysterectomy.

"I also realize that even if abortions are illegal there will still be "backyard abortions" but if a woman is stupid enough to do it then I guess she deserves the consequences.."

If you truly beleive in your heart that a woman so desperate to no longer be pregnant deserves to die you are voted out of the sisterhood. Please turn in your uterus to the front desk. What a completely morally bankrupt sentiment. I truly hope you are never in the position to have to make the decisions these women do. What that woman deserves is compassion, empathy and access to safe health care.

Jaime - posted on 12/02/2010

THANK YOU D-MAK! I ♥ you!



That is another good point. You can name all the adopted celebrities in the world and speculate as to what the world would do without them, had they been aborted...but are you going to do the same for the serial killers? I'm sure their adoptive parents loved and cared for them too.

Chatty - posted on 12/02/2010

P.S. The list goes on but I got tired of typing....

Chatty - posted on 12/02/2010

So Brittany, I decided to look up my own list....



Ted Bundy (Co-ed Murderer)

David Burkowitz (Son of Sam)

Joel Rifkin (Dark Son)

Kenneth Bianchi (Hillside Strangler)

Charles Albright

Cesar Barone

Gary Ray Bowles

Ian Brady

Alton Coleman

Rory Conde

Alberta Desalvo

Harrison T. Graham

Joseph Kondro

Joseph Kallinger

James Munro

Robert Lee Yates

Richard Ramirez





As I'm sure you've guessed my list consists of serial killers. Coincidentally, they were also ALL adopted. Hmmmmm...



Food for thought. Your point was what exactly?

Kate CP - posted on 12/02/2010

A recent study (the Collaborative Review of Sterilization, or CREST, study) looked at 10,000 women who had undergone tubal ligation and found 143 failures (a failure rate of 1.4 percent). It can be higher when a tubal is done at the time of a C-section. The failure rate also tends to increase the longer it has been since one had a tubal ligation. The U.S. Collaborative Review of Sterilization (CREST) found the failure rate for tubal ligation (all occlusion methods) to be 1.85% after 10 years.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_c...

Your partner having a vasectomy is not a 100% guarantee that you will not ever get pregnant. There is a very small (but very real) failure rate for vasectomy. There is about a 0.6% to 1% chance that a man will still conceive a child after having had a vasectomy. (from http://www.thelaboroflove.com/articles/w...)

The way the procedures are performed relies solely on the surgeon. When some one goes in for a PERMANENT form of birth control (such as a vasectomy or tubal ligation) it is ASSUMED they won't want to have it reversed as the chances of a successful reversal are also low. So, no...vasectomies and tubal ligations are NOT 100% effective 100% of the time and there are those who conceive after having the procedure done.

I would much rather abortion stay legal so rather than two lives lost there is only one. Not to mention it's no one's frickin' business if a woman decides to have an abortion or not.

Jaime - posted on 12/02/2010

I just can't get behind the sob stories of the thousands of childless couples that would love to adopt an unwanted baby because; for every newborn that is adopted, a toddler or child or teenager stays in the system for another year until they are pushed out on their own at 18. The staggering number of orphans in North America should be the leading and most profound evidence that adoption is not necessarily a humane choice. If a couple truly and deeply want to be parents, then my thinking is they will adopt the children that already need a home, instead of waiting around for a newborn that they can raise from infancy. I understand that everyone longs to hold that little baby in their arms and raise it up with their own morals and values, but if someone has already accepted that they're not going to achieve parenthood the natural way, it makes sense to me that they would embrace the thousands of children that are waiting patiently for a home and a family of their own. Our world does not need anymore newborn orphans. Abstinence is the ONLY foolproof way to prevent pregnancy...and unless you personally strap on the chastity belts, there's not much hope for preventing people from having sex...responsibly or otherwise. What we need to do as collective societies, is realize that our individual wants/needs and interests stand apart from everyone else. Abortion is not something to look forward to, but it's an option that needs to be available so that women can make the choice that is right for them...not the middle-aged couple that is hoping and dreaming for a newborn baby of their very own!

Oluyemisi - posted on 12/02/2010

depending on some factors, i will support abortion before 8wks-10wks.
if a woman has no means of suporting a child & found out on time to consider it, i think it is ok than to bring a child to the world & be unable 2 cater for the child...

Brie - posted on 12/02/2010

no kate I haven't and I don't think that I would be enough to do something that stupid... compared to other forms of birth control they are and if they are done where they aren't reversible then they are becasue the openings have been burned!

Kate CP - posted on 12/02/2010

And vasectomies and tubals are NOT fool proof. Many a child has been conceived after one of these procedures has been performed.

Kate CP - posted on 12/02/2010

"...I also realize that even if abortions are illegal there will still be "backyard abortions" but if a woman is stupid enough to do it then I guess she deserves the consequences..."

Wow. I guess you've never been that desperate and panicked before?

Brie - posted on 12/02/2010

@Barb pro-life isn't exactly choosing between not having sex or having a baby... (that is how I understood your question) if you used the proper protection the risk is lowered significantly but there are still accidents.. Everybody knows that there are only three fool proof ways to not get pregnant which are celibacy, vasectomy for the man, and tubes tied for the woman... If you are not ready for a baby then you have other options.. You could be celibate, you could have the child adopted, or you could find other ways to release the tension aside from straight intercourse.. There are plenty of couples out there that would love to have children and aren't naturally able to that look to adoption as their only hope of having a family and the child would be raised in an amazing home.. Adoption would be the choice I would make if there was no way possible for me to raise a new child.. think of the great things that child could do and if nothing else think of how much better of a life you have given that couple who couldn't do it themselves... This may just be me but I come from a family where miscarriages are a very good chance... I may only be able to have my stepson and my one son but I want more... If I had the money and means right now for another child I would gladly adopt no questions asked..

I decided to look up famous people who were adopted and some of the responses were pretty neat...

Babe Ruth-Baseball Icon

Dave Thomas-Founder of Wendys

Malcolm X-greatest civil rights activist of all time

Steve Jobs-cofounder of Apple computers inventor of the Ipod

Scott Hamilton-mens figure skating olympic gold medalist/producer of Stars on Ice (a big name traveling show)

Marilyn Monroe-American Icon

Faith Hill-reknown country music artist

Jamie Foxx-Actor/comedian

and the one i thought was kinda funny due to the conversation is

Dr. Ruth Westheimer- talk show host of sexually speaking and I know almost everyone should know of her!!!

Now just think if those peoples parents had decided to abort them then their achievements may have never happened and for a couple where would we be today without them... how would the world look if there was no malcolm x to stand up and speak his mind... so many people in the world depend on computers what if there was no steve jobs to help cofind apple (the first mass production and distributor of the computer)??

and as far as the operations for men and women you can get them so that they are reversible if you so choose to do it!!

I also realize that even if abortions are illegal there will still be "backyard abortions" but if a woman is stupid enough to do it then I guess she deserves the consequences..

Trish - posted on 12/01/2010

I'm pro choice. I've been around kids that parents have had them but don't want to look after them and/or just abuse them. It's plan sad to see these beautiful children being tossed around and treated like rubbish. I've never had an abortion but went with a friend to her appointments to have hers. I didn't go for the actual abortion but she told me everything that happened. She was really upset about it...but she knew she wasn't in a position to have a baby. We were just teenagers then. However I am against women that use abortion as a form of birth control. This is the 21st century and there is so much contraceptives out there. There's no excuse. It's a woman's responsibility to know her body and to take the precautions of not falling pregnant. This is a taboo topic because as mothers we know the miracle of life when we have babies. When you first see the tiny heartbeat at your first sonogram when it's a tiny little alien looking cell...So this will forever be a hot topic.

Barb - posted on 12/01/2010

Thank you for clarifying that for me Kelly.

I see the logic of a man and woman doing everything preventable to not have children if they don't want to have children while still maintaining a healthy sexual lifestyle and not using abortion as a form of birth control.

I also think many woman may find that as their personal choice. But the crux of the matter is, it's not up to me to decide what is best for you, or Dana, or Jodi, or anyone else but ME.

Chatty - posted on 12/01/2010

I'm pro-choice! Jumpin in on this a lil' late, but jumping in nonetheless.

Kelly - posted on 12/01/2010

Thank you, Barb. Well, the answer to your question, I guess is kind of gray--more like "sex or pregnancy" than "sex or baby" if that makes sense. When properly using birth control, the chance of a pregnancy is pretty slim, but the woman in the relationship should choose whether she is willing to take those chances and deal with the consequences of a pregnancy when she chooses whether or not to have sex. Should a pregnancy result, she still doesn't have to keep the actual baby, there are thousands of couples waiting for newborns, but she should finish the pregnancy that she began.
That is what I understand as the "pro-life" answer to the question.

Kerri & Jodi, I meant it the way Jodi interpreted, abortion, to me is more like a form a euthanasia to keep the baby from suffering.
I guess I just feel like it should only, but always, be used in cases where the baby will suffer greatly once it is born--to protect the baby, not to save the mom the trouble of carrying a baby for nine months after she chose to create it.

Barb - posted on 12/01/2010

Kelly H, First, i want to say i hold a great deal of respect for people who can see their own mistakes and take the time to correct them. Thank you for doing that. I am genuinely interested in the answer to my question however, Is the only pro-life "choice" celibacy or baby?

Teresa :) I'm sorry, i didn't mean to make it sound like a death sentence. I was meaning that sex is part of a healthy lifestyle. Like eating healthy, exercise, education, debate :) Sex has a whole list of health and beauty benefits, everything from fighting cancer to improving the quality of your skin. Just google "health benefits of sex" and see what proven medical articles pop up. That is what i meant, and yes, i meant of course, being in a committed relationship, i'm not suggesting you go out and bag n tag one tonight :)

Jaime - posted on 12/01/2010

I have been involuntarily celibate for two years and it's definitely not a lifestyle I will live with much longer. Sex is healthy. Not having sex just makes you a raging lunatic that combs the depths for chocolate and peels the labels off of every friggin' bottle you can find!

Joanne - posted on 12/01/2010

Its a bit of a grey area... it was an ongoing relationship for both adults concerned. The mother can function in society but has a very low iq, so whether she understood it was wrong or not is questionable but i spose in saying that the father definately knew it was wrong. Its just a shame that the situation was allowed to continue until it resulted in pregnancy that wasnt wanted, there were family members who knew this was going on and did nothing about it! Looking back though alot of family wish she had aborted.

Kerry - posted on 12/01/2010

Thats a shocking story Joanne, Just a question though...if the mother had a mental disability was she really "consenting". i am 100% pro choice by the way but can see many would agrue that this case could be similar to the argument of rape because if she has a disability she could not 100% consent?

Joanne - posted on 11/30/2010

Question: To those of u who only believe in abortion in rape cases, do u agree with abortion in the case of incest. I have a family member who was the result of consentual incest between a brother and sister, he was born disabled. The mother was only 16 when she gave birth and also had a mental disability herself. Her parents refused to let her abort because it was against their religion and she was forced to raise a child that she was not capable of doing due to her mentality. The rest of family were not happy she had this child, who is now in his mid-thirties and a reminder to the family every day of wot happened...