Can a 5 year old be a murderer?

Tah - posted on 06/27/2011

Capable of understanding and understanding are 2 different things. I just don't really agree that they understand fully consequences of their action. How many times does a cartoon character jump off a building and either fly or fall and get back up. How many times are they underwater but talking or okay after a full episode. I don't think it had to be used as home discipline for them to do it.

Lindsey - posted on 06/26/2011

This is a complicated case. I know that my 4 year old knows what drowning is and has since she was 2 years old. However, she relates drowning to a pool, or lake, not the bathtub. So I can't say that she knows that holding someone's head under the water would kill them. I feel so badly for the families in question. One child has already been lost, if they think that placing the 5 year old in a psychological hospital for treatment, that is another family who loses a child. I couldn't imagine my 4 year old ever having an idea like that though. She is very excitable, but when she hears other children crying or her cousin crying, she always tries to comfort them by holding their hands and telling them things will be ok. I do wonder about a 5 year old, who is likely in Kindergarten, who learns right from wrong, that would think to hold a child under water to stop them from crying. I wonder if that is how the 5 year old was treated. Maybe the parents held that child under water for a short time to get them to stop cying. That is BEYOND INSANE to me, but that could be a form of discipline that that family practiced. So the child may have been mimicking what they have had done to themselves. However, she didn't know that she had to bring the child up to air. I am of course just speculating what could have been going on in that house, and what would cause a 5year old to think that holding a child under water would be a good way to stop them from crying. So sad. I hope they find closure to this story soon.

Erin - posted on 06/24/2011

My daughter is 5.5 years old. She knows very well what the difference between life and death is.
She knows that when somebody dies, its forever, and it hurts people around them. That being said, I raised my child honestly and openly about life and death, and we have also had some recent tradgedies very close to our family, so she has had first hand experience. Not all parents out there will be open about death, or have the opportunity to teach their children about it. All I can say, is my kids 5, and she knows, which means other average run of the mill 5 year olds are capable of understanding.

Stifler's - posted on 06/23/2011

The babysitter should be shot.

Tah - posted on 06/22/2011

I don't know..some kids are strong...elderly and little kids hit hard..lol

Morgan - posted on 06/22/2011

I don't get how a five year old was strong enough to force a 2 year old under water?? I weigh about 140 and can barley wrestle my 17 month old into the tub to get clean!! I think something else happened and this poor kid took the blame!

Constance - posted on 06/22/2011

Yes people are born as psychopathes, but it is hard to determine if this 5 year old is or not. I would hope that she is not. The first thing I would look at has someone that ha taken care of her ever held her under water to shut her up. Most children would put their hand over a babies mouth if they were crying, not to be malitous but jut to say shhh. I would put money on it that e someone did this to her or she saw someone do it to her brother. She probally didn't know that if she kept him underwate he would never cry again.
If she is psycopathe then she knew completely what she was doing and will do it again when she is older. Unfortunately it will have to be determined by a forensic psycologist whether or not she knew and understood what she was doing.

The babysitter should be charged with a minimum of child neglect. She went to sleep and did not respond to the child crying. This could have been completely avoided if she had been doing her job correctly. There is no excuse from the babysitter.

April - posted on 06/21/2011

i thought the babysitter was disabled? i am not sure how disabled or what kind of disability this person had? people with disabilities have to be even more on their toes and they have to rely on all the other senses that work for them. for example, i am hearing impaired. if i had been the sitter, i would have literally had to keep my eyes on both children at all times. my ears don't work, but my eyes do. Listening for children I cannot visibly see is not an option. In the other situation: napping while your children are awake...it's just not feasible for me. I can't hear at all once I'm asleep. To sum things up, I think it's pretty important to make sure you can see the children you are taking care of, ESPECIALLY if you have some kind of disability.

Laura Zoey - posted on 06/21/2011

Maybe she heard it threatened...my brother in law would threaten his kids saying if they didn't quit running around he would take them to the dr and have their legs broken......parents can say some pretty awful things in anger, maybe the boy has been yelled at by a parent before and threatened to drown him.
Scary thought but, yeah more likely on tv is where she saw it.

Tah - posted on 06/21/2011

Probably t.v..but of course on there..people live, so they don't understand. I'm sure no one in her house was doing that..I hope not...

Laura Zoey - posted on 06/21/2011

Sleeping next to my son while he watches tv is not endangering him at all. What do you think could happen! He could color his feet with a pen...... That was funny, but it's not dangerous. If he got hurt I'd hear him. Sheesh.
Yeah, I don't think a 5 year old could think this up herself. It's not normal to hold someone's head under water to quiet them. She had to learn this somewhere, and that person is more at fault then she is.
Babysitter had to be high or drunk to not hear the supposedly endless screaming that drove the girl to drown the boy!
How could a babysitter sleep through the screaming?

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

Sorry Sara...no this 5 year old I doubt is a murderer. They don't understand the totality of death at that age.

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 06/20/2011

****ADMIN WARNING*****

Let's get this debate back on topic. Please remember that debates can get heated, but we still need to follow No THUMPS.
Thanks,
Sara
Admin

Melissa - posted on 06/20/2011

My simple point was that sleeping while caring for children who are currently awake is irresponsible. I've stated that several times and all of you went on to tell stories about how you PURPOSEFULLY napped while caring for your children who were AWAKE at the time you DECIDED to doze off. If my finding that to be irresponsible behavior is me being on a high horse, or trying to be perfect, then I guess I'm just gonna go on a perfect little horseback ride and hope that nothing ever happens to one of your children while you guys are DECIDING to take little naps. Kudos to all of you. Of course we get exhausted, but again, our exhaustion CAN NOT come before the safety of our children. There is no such thing as a perfectly child-proof house. Unless of course you live in a bounce house with absolutely no edges, corners, or hard surfaces.

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

Perfect moms are barfable...

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

okay Melissa...first of all..because maybe you are missing the point..or maybe you just are PERFECT..Hi five for all you accomplish..whatever..lol...we are saying that it happens...we also said that some times(to us humans) children can awaken without you knowing..(not yours, because you would NEVER let that happen)..again, we get your perfection. Noone is encouraging falling to sleep, i am not saying the babysitter is right. I am saying parents have dozed off before and its not the end of the world. I have also said that children sometimes are quiet little things and after being put to bed..even with a baby monitor right on your head..or being in the bed beside you..can get up without you knowing..have i ever had any escape..No..because i make it so that they can't get out the house at that age...bathroom doors stay closed at that age..basically the house is baby proof. Noone is saying people come home...throw crackers and toys on a blanket, put on backyardigans and go to sleep...PUHLEASE..get off your high horse

Melissa - posted on 06/20/2011

I tend to find my childs safety a bit more important that my exhaustion. I work 4 days a week for my family business and my son comes with me, so I work WHILE chasing a toddler. Then I care for other children the remainder of the week. I also keep up my house on my own. Exhaustion is not lost on me, but if my sleep were a larger priority, I wouldn't have become a mother.

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

we know melissa, we are horrid parents..thanks again for playing..

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

Lol..I'm sure..

Laura Zoey - posted on 06/20/2011

Lol, Eric tends to be way too needy, not so much ninja :) he won't even get out of his own toddler bed after nap or night, he always sits there and calls for me until I come in and pick him up :). He's a needy boy

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

Also..maybe my children were born ninjas because there have been times i have had the baby monitor right next to me and sometimes the child next to me and they woke up without me knowing..i am hoping that never happens to..but im sure at some point, he will awaken..quietly and you will not know because you are obviously going to be tired from all of this being awake get into something..we will not judge you irresponsible..but human and though sometimes being human is frowned upon..alot of us have been guilty from time to time...

Tah - posted on 06/20/2011

O my..now falling asleep while your child is awake is irresponsible...well i will be the first to say i have done it more than once...I always laugh at the people say never or who have never done things like this and want to judge people irresponsible for it...That is a good conversation for my new debate community...Is falling asleep while your toddler awake irresponsible...thats Melissa

Laura Zoey - posted on 06/20/2011

Call me irresponsible too then, I fell asleep this morning while my two year son was awake.he watched tv and I slept on the recliner. No biggie. He would be more likely to wake me up then do anything except watch tv.
Like Toni I have a new baby so sleep is rare, and with my ppd I need as much as I can get to keep my anxiety down,
Oh boy, now I'm really irresponsible, a mental condition AND fell asleep!
Call the cops I guess :)

Toni - posted on 06/20/2011

I'm pleased that you have never accidentally fallen asleep while your child is awake Melissa, most of us have at some point, it's not about being irresponsible it is about exhaustion. I'm sure none of us set out to go to sleep while our child is awake and free to roam the house but there are times like when we have been really ill or really tired, for example when we have a newborn baby - my daughter who is 3 weeks old was awake for the entire night last night, moaning and crying, my hubby and I got a grand total of one hour 30 mins sleep, hubby had to then get up for work and I had to get up and care for our 3 week old and our 20 month old son - we are shattered anyway as for the last few months our sleep has been incredibly disrupted (I had a bad pregnancy) and we are just exhausted so yes we have fallen asleep for a small amount of time while our toddler plays (in the past not today yet :-) ). However, he cannot get out of our home - our doors are locked and the keys are away from them in a place my son cannot reach, and our home is pretty toddler friendly because I am slightly lazy and want looking after him to be as stress free as possible. Actually tbh if we do fall asleep while he is in the room with us he either snuggles up with us or he wakies us up because he thinks we're playing.

Jodi - posted on 06/19/2011

Oh well. I have fallen asleep on the couch when I was sick as a dog once, while my 4 year old was playing on the floor in front of me. Call me irresponsible :)

Melissa - posted on 06/19/2011

Falling asleep at night when your child is already asleep is one thing. Falling asleep when the child(ren) are still up and active IS irresponsible, regardless of what time of the day or night it is. It has nothing to do with putting anyone on a high horse, it has to do with the safety of your children. Keeping a child safe is being on a high horse? Really?? I would HOPE that people would have strong language about things like that! Here in Connecticut there was a case where a babysitter fell asleep and some random couple found him by the Connecticut River. Had it not been for that couple, what are the chances that little boy could have been swept away and killed? The CT River can have some pretty strong and rough areas, nothing a toddler could handle. In Florida a babysitter fell asleep and was found near ALLIGATORS. In West Palm Beach a grandfather brought his toddler grandson out for a walk and fell asleep in the park. How easy could it have been for a predator to have snatched up that baby? There was another woman, I don't remember from where, but she fell asleep while watching her neighbors toddler, and neighbors found him wandering around in the street. When you're caring for a child, whether it's yours or not, you are responsible for the safety of that child. How exactly can you provide any care or protection if you're sleeping? Like I said, once they're in bed for the night, that's one thing. I have a baby monitor next to my bed because sometimes my son does wake up. But during the day when a child is up and active is NO time for ANYONE is charge of a child to be snoozing off. If you want to call that a high horse, be my guest. I'd rather be on a high horse and have my son safe than find that behavior acceptable and find my son floating down the river.

Jodi - posted on 06/19/2011

My point is, a 5 year old can wake up and has access to various areas in the house. I am not talking about falling asleep before the children, but even if they wake in the middle of the night.

None of it makes you the bad guy. But your language was very strong about how irresponsible it is to fall asleep when you are looking after a child (I do it every night, and I would hope everyone does). That's an awfully high horse you are putting yourself on.

Melissa - posted on 06/19/2011

actually i am a single mother. i was also raised by a single mother, and when i was old enough to watch my two younger brothers (i was 10, they were 5 and 1) she took on a second job and i was left to babysit everyday after school. my mother never went to sleep before us, and she never napped if we were home. i do the same thing. i go to sleep after my son is asleep, i have a baby monitor so if he does wake up i hear him, and i'm up before he gets up every day. i'm not really sure why i'm under attack from you because i find it inappropriate to snooze off while caring for a child. how many stories just in this past year have involed a parent or babysitter falling asleep and a young child wandering off into the street?? and now this! i'm not saying this 5 year old is a psychotic murderer, i'm simply saying it's a huge warning sign, and it couldn't possibly hurt ANYONE to simply have her evaluated. not to mention the fact that she could likely remember what she's done for the rest of her life, so if she ISN'T showing signs of psychotic behavior, this could very well have been a traumatizing experience, and it would be good for her if her parents had some professional assistance and insight in how to deal with how this could ultimately effect her. how exactly does any of this make me the bad guy??

Jodi - posted on 06/19/2011

Oh, so you are obviously not a single mother and you and your husband/partner sleep in shifts then.......

Melissa - posted on 06/19/2011

actually no, i've never fallen asleep when alone with any child. it has nothing to do with being perfect, just responsible. the thought of what COULD happen, and the stories of what HAS happened to many others who have made that mistake is enough to keep me wide awake. and yes, it's a POSSIBILITY that it was a mistake, however there's an even larger possibility that it's the beginning to a long string of strange and psychotic behaviors. every parent who has a children that experiences things like this of course wants to believe it was a simple accident; especially after losing one child it's normal and natural to deny the possibility of your now-only child being sick, but that denial is only going to cause more harm. it would be greatly beneficial if the parents AT LEAST had a very well credited and recommended psychotherapist assess the child. if caught early, it could save a lifetime of heartache for this child, the parents, and anyone else who could potentially be hurt in the future.

Jodi - posted on 06/19/2011

Melissa, have you NEVER fallen asleep on your watch with your own children? Wow, must be great to be THAT perfect. Hope you lock them in their rooms at night....separately... :\

As for psychotic behaviour, there IS the possibility it was an accident.

Melissa - posted on 06/19/2011

The babysitter should definitely be charged; sleeping while watching children is extremely irresponsible and definitely creates a situation where children can be hurt. As far as the 5 year old killing their sibling, it shows early signs of psychotic behavior. Young children with these issues tend to kill animals. They usually don't fully understand death or what it actually is, but it's certainly a precursor to more serious issues in the future. A very great number of serial killers started off with animal killing as children.

Michelle - posted on 06/18/2011

Oh my gosh...How HORRIBLE!!! I honestly don't think the 5 year completely understood what those actions could have done. But then again, I may be wrong. I truly believe the babysitter should be charged though. She is responsible for those children. Where was this babysitter while the toddler was crying? What a horribly tragic story!!! My heart and prayers go out to the family of this toddler for sure!!!

Jodi - posted on 06/18/2011

But it didn't SAY the babysitter was mentally incompetent. It said she had a mental disability. That could mean something quite minor.

Katherine - posted on 06/18/2011

Actually based on mental incompetance she very well likely won't be charged. THE PERSON WHO left THEM WILL BE.

Kimberley - posted on 06/17/2011

No the child can not be charge. Yes the baby sitter can be charged with neglect!!

Brie - posted on 06/16/2011

yeah jodi i thought about that after i posted.. some mental disabilities are ok... if it is a mental disability that any normal person would have to think before leaving or automatically say no to then yeah.. the mom needs charged but if its something minor then the teen is responsible.. and shannon teenagers have been babysitting for forever.. there is nothing wrong with it as long as the parent is sure that the teen is responsible enough.. i babysat for extra cash when i was as young as 13-14... granted my mom was there but i babysat on my own when i was 14... depends on the resposibility and maturity of the person you can't generalize teenagers just like snowflakes no two kids are alike! oh yeah and nothing ever happened to the children and i took care of them like they were my own!

Jodi - posted on 06/16/2011

"They should charge the adult who left children in the care of someone with a mental disability"

Brittany, have you ever suffered anxiety or depression? Oops, you've been left in charge of a child. Big no-no? Just saying that the term "mental disability" refers to a wide RANGE of disorders, including PND, panic attacks, anxiety disorders and the like.

And I used to babysit when I was 16. No biggie IMO. Depends on the teenager, but in most circumstances, I would not condemn a parent for a 16 year old babysitting. I've left my step-daughter to babysit over the years a few times, even back when she was 16. Very responsible girl.

Shannon - posted on 06/16/2011

there is something missing from this story for a child to do this to another child would indicate to me it was how he was raised and i would question the parenting skills of the parents and its clear that you shouldnt leave kids with a teenager i wont let my kids babysit when they are teenagers kids are a big responsibility not something a teenager should or could handle, the child needs help and the parents should be put on the spot and forced to undergo parenting classes and much more before getting their children back



also if teenagers were responsible enough for babies and kids they wouldnt be needing to live with parents until they are 18+ parents need to consider this when leaving their kids with someone that young it is irresponsible there adults who can babysit.

Katherine - posted on 06/16/2011

Oh and I did read in another article that the babysitter had fallen asleep. She was only supposed to be left for a few minutes.

Katherine - posted on 06/16/2011

It sounds so crazy saying this but it sounds premeditated. Like she already had the idea of doing this to this little boy. There were a million other things she could have done, but she chose to take him to the bathroom and drown him......

Brie - posted on 06/16/2011

IF they charge the little girl (which is bull) the most they should do it therapy or something like that...
They should charge the adult who left children in the care of someone with a mental disability

Toni - posted on 06/16/2011

Yep my 5yo nephew and my 4 yo nephew can both pick up and carry around my son who is 20 months old (I get sick of telling them he has legs and can walk himself) so I don't think that it would be odd that a 5yo could pick up an 18 month old.

Jodi - posted on 06/16/2011

Okay, the kid who drowned was 18 months, not 2 years. My 6 year old is actually the size of a 5 year old (she's only 19kg), and she can lift my friend's 2 year old, who is 16 kg, so debunked that theory :)

The age of 7 is the average age at which they believe logical reasoning kicks in. So there actually IS a true cognitive difference in how a 5 year old thinks, vs. how an 8 or 10 year old will think. That's a fact.

Courtney - posted on 06/16/2011

I think the situation as a whole is a bit odd - like how is a 5 year old even capable of lifting a 2 year old up enough to put them in a bath and drown them?
I think if it was the 5 year olds fault perhaps it was more of a 'LO is crying and he/she loves the bath' put them in and they slipped under the water?
I don't think a murder charge is necessary at all - she's 5 years old! The babysitter is partly to blame - even if she did fall asleep, children's safety should have been first, surely the children were in bed, and if so wouldn't they 18 month been in a cot? I know not necessarily but... ''/

Where I live you can be convicted of murder at 8 years old. xx

Jodi - posted on 06/16/2011

I know Meagan, I guess I just keep coming up with solutions that make the entire thing an innocent yet horrible accident :\ I have difficulty conceiving of the alternative.

Meagan - posted on 06/16/2011

That's sort of what I was thinking, but I just get an inkling that maybe something else was going on in that house. Maybe not abuse, but something doesnt ring right with me.

Jodi - posted on 06/16/2011

Oh, I agree Meagan, definitely something wrong with the story, and I don't think all the facts are out. I think there is something not being said.

Just a thought.....it *could* be possible that mum runs a bath for the younger child when it is upset in order to soothe or calm. I know I have done that for my kids in the past, especially when they haven't been well and I can't settle them. Perhaps that's where she got the idea from, and her intention was to bathe the child, not actually drown it, but it then became a freak accident?

Meagan - posted on 06/15/2011

My question is where did she get the idea that putting the 2 year old underwater was a way of getting the kid to stop crying. The way it's put is haunting. That the crying was getting to her, so she put the baby underwater to get it to stop. Where would a child get that idea from? From what I understand, little ones tend to copy what they see, so naturally, cuddling or something like that would be a typical reaction.

I get the feeling that something major is missing from this story.

Jodi - posted on 06/15/2011

I am not arguing that a 5 year old doesn't know what death actually is - of course they understand that. But I don't agree that they TRULY can understand the absolute permanence and effect that death has. Many children that age have not necessarily experienced loss of someone or something they love through death, so are removed from understanding the actual true consequences. Someone can only be charged with murder if their intention was to kill. And diminished mental capacity is a very real defence. I would argue that an adult with the mental capacity of a 5 year old would probably not be held accountable for their actions. So how can anyone hold a 5 year old accountable for their actions? The mental capacity of a 10 year old is VERY different to the mental capacity of a 5 year old. Period.

In addition, this 5 year old did not INTEND to kill the baby. Many children at this age do not take consequences into account when they act on impulse. It is VERY possible that it never occurred to this child that her sibling would not wake up. Her intention was to stop her from crying. I don't believe she is in any way capable of intending to kill. Therefore, a murder charge is utterly ridiculous.