Circumcision ban?

Charley - posted on 12/17/2010

you know what you all think your right no matter what our argument is. moms get their little baby girls ears pierced all the time thats the same thing what if she didnt want her ears done. We make our kids go to school its our choice not theirs right.

Minnie - posted on 12/17/2010

Are you Jewish, Charley?

The cervical cancer study was conducted on Jewish couples. People who are monogamous, and who have a low liklihood of harboring HPV. It was not the fact that Jewish men are circumcised (which, by the way, if you studied up on TRUE old covenant circumcision, you would know that it is only the foreskin that hangs past the glans that is removed, rather than the entire foreskin like in US hospitals) but the fact that the couples were not sleeping around and contracting HPV.

The HIV studies (it probably would be a good thing to go back and read the last 41 pages, Charley) required men to use condoms for 6 weeks after the surgery. Condoms are very protective against HIV. The studies were not concluded due to ethical concerns. They also only demonstrated protection against HIV for female to male transmissions of HIV, whereas in the US HIV is transmitted typically through drug use or male to male intercourse. It is also worth noting that the procedure was done on adult males, something that an adult male in the US could decide for, but which you are imposing upon your non-sexual, non-consenting baby boys, Charley.

Charley - posted on 12/17/2010

Genesis 17:11, God said to Abraham "You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you." Genesis 17:12 goes on to say "For the generations to come, every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household....Some older men develop cancer of the penis - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing?

Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

Chatty - posted on 12/17/2010

A troll who can't spell....or type.....or speak english....what type of troll is it? Hmmm....

"Having foreskin removed is not going to hurt their chances of bearing a child in anyway." ~ Sherri

Really? Seriously? It's SURGERY!

Minnie - posted on 12/17/2010

YAY! 800 posts!!

I marked your post as 'helpful' because I was going to leave it up to someone else to do the math ;)

Krista - posted on 12/17/2010

Rebecca's right -- so if having a testicle removed is just as cosmetic as removing a foreskin, then it should be completely acceptable to remove either so that an infant looks like his daddy, right?

Rebecca - posted on 12/17/2010

Actually, it's not true that losing one testicle will have any impact on a man's ability to father a child. It's not the same as losing a tube for a woman because women only produce one egg a month and that egg, more or less, is produced on a different side each month. This would result in an approximately 50% reduction in woman's chances of getting pregnant. A single testicle will still produce millions of sperm and, provided that the man otherwise has a healthy sperm count, won't impact his ability to father a child.

Rebecca - posted on 12/17/2010

Erin H -- totally agree with you. Probably not a parent; definitely a troll!

Sherri - posted on 12/17/2010

To me having some foreskin removed is not even comparable to having a testicle removed. Having foreskin removed is not going to hurt their chances of bearing a child in anyway. Having some foreskin removed I will admit it is cosmetic, having a testicle removed is much like a woman having a fallopian tube removed it would significantly make bearing children much more difficult.

Krista - posted on 12/17/2010

Charley, do you really think that, considering the fact that many babies have been permanently disfigured (and some have even died) from this procedure, that your little joke about "chopping penises" was appropriate?

This is serious stuff, here. Babies are being put through a medical procedure, a procedure that carries some very real risks, for really flimsy reasons. You risked your son bleeding to death solely because you wanted him to look like his daddy. I don't see that as being particularly funny, thanks.

Krista - posted on 12/17/2010

Ah yes, you did. You said, "Obviously Not Krista because it would be because of something devastating that happened not because of a choice that I was asked to make for my son when he was born."

I'm having a bit of a hard time deciphering your answer, so please humour me. Are you saying that if your husband was sans one testicle, that you would NOT have had your newborn's son's testicle removed, because you wouldn't have been given the choice?

If so, then that's still not really an answer. What I want to know is if you think it would be LOGICAL to want to remove the nut of a baby whose father has only one nut. The reason for the missing nut, or whether or not you'd be actually allowed to do this, is irrelevant to my question. Do you think that WANTING to remove that testicle, so that the child looks like daddy, would be a logical sentiment?

Sherri - posted on 12/17/2010

Actually already answered you on that one Krista!!

Charley - posted on 12/17/2010

Erin H - how dare u say im not a parent go ahead ant talk ur crap but dont let your bulldog mouth overrun your puppy dog ass im all for circum and everyone of my boys will be done good for you for not wanting to clip ur sons penis good job im proud of you ur such a parent .......the troll

Chatty - posted on 12/17/2010

YAY! 800 posts!!

April - posted on 12/17/2010

Krista-- you aren't going to get your answer. You cannot reason with people who only see in black and white.

Krista - posted on 12/17/2010

I'm still waiting for my answer from the pro-circ contingent: IF your husband was missing a testicle, would you consider it logical to remove your newborn son's testicle so that his genitals match his fathers?

April - posted on 12/17/2010

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi...

i am not sure if this was posted before and apologize if this is repetitive. Basically it says that the AAP no longer supports circumcision as a routine medical procedure. They also state that "data are not sufficient enough to recommend neonatal circumcision". The benefits are also labeled as "potential" . If I am going to amputate a part of my future son, should I have another one...I'd want to hear that there are DEFINITE benefits. I'd want SUFFICIENT data. Hence, (and I KNOW this point has been made already here)...there is no STRONG evidence to support circumcision. The AAP issued this policy statement because it would be UNETHICAL to recommend something medically unnecessary.

Johnny - posted on 12/17/2010

I don't have much to say, at least without repeating things that have been said in the previous 795 posts (that has to be close to a record!)

After reading tonight from post 400 onwards, one thing that really perplexes me is this concept that we own our children's bodies and can do whatever we choose to them. The fact is that generally, we can't . Circumcision and ear piercing are really the only 2 ways in which you can legally alter a child's body without medical reasons, at least in most Western countries.

For example, both my husband and I suffered from severe cases of tonsillitis as children. In our parent's era, the removal of tonsils was routine, regardless of illness. Much like routine infant circumcision. But by the time we were kids, you needed to have medical necessity for the surgery to be done. Theoretically our child may have a greater propensity for tonsillitis in the future, yet we can not demand to have a doctor remove them before she has any sign of illness. Such a procedure would never be approved by a hospital and very few doctors would agree to perform it. Few people would agree that it is a parent's prerogative to have a medical procedure performed on their child simply to avoid a potential future problem, without any medical indications of necessity. Why is RIC so different? Why do moms think they own their kids penis'?

Okay, so I just posted so that I'd get an invite to 'penis-fest' 2011, so sue me!

Chatty - posted on 12/16/2010

WOW! You ladies were busy today while I was gone....4 more pages. Lisa, we're gettin' there....

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 12/16/2010

Mod warning:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Thanks!

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 12/16/2010

To my knowledge every man in my family is circumcised. I know for a fact that my dad and brother are and my husband is, as well. I don't find this a good reason to circumcise. As others have said my son doesn't have to look exactly like my husband or anyone else. By the time my son gets to the locker room age I have a feeling he will be in good (intact) company lol.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

Yes. I thought that we as parents were supposed to teach our children self-confidence and respect for themselves, their bodies and others. We don't want our girls following after unhealthy media images.

But as parents at birth we cut up our perfect baby boys, having the feeling that a part of them is somehow wrong and ugly, cut it off in an attempt to conform them.

Kimberly - posted on 12/16/2010

I just don't understand how it is logical to damage a child physically in order to spare their feelings. It would be more logical to teach him to be self assured and confident than to teach him, by example, that cutting yourself is an acceptable way to deal with peer pressure.

Nikkole - posted on 12/16/2010

I know that one of my bother in laws is circumcised and 2 are not lmao my mother in law told me one day she talks about EVERYTHING! Her oldest son was done but she said he cried so badly and they messed it up that she didn't do any of her other kids! I did my son but i was uninformed and my mother told me i should nad my husband wanted to also if i were to have another son i wouldn't do it! I have NEVER seen an un circ penis excepts my sons and i love my husband the way he is some of his friends know hes not and they do make smart ass remarks and pokes fun at him but i think it looks and works just fine ;) But kids will be cruel not matter what if its not there penis, its the clothes there wearing they way they talk,the way they are looking at each other kids will be kids! AND hey i would go to a PenisFest LMAO

Shannen - posted on 12/16/2010

I have to admit i know that my father is circumcised as i know that my brother is. ONLY reason i know this is because i brought this debate up with my mother and she told me how she doesn't see the need but went with what my father wanted. My father fully agrees with being circumcised (even tried to use the cleanliness debate).

I also know that two of my nephews are circumcised. The other 3 boys aren't. (Husbands sister got her boys done, My brothers son isn't done and neither are his brothers. Different fathers) I also know that Some of my husbands cousins aren't done either. Huh i think if i recall correctly i even know if his uncles are. I also know whether or not my friends boys are done.

But i will clarify that two of my husbands Uncles are younger than him ( and half the girls i know dated them) and his cousins are 4 and 5.

Wow that sounds really bad. But what can i say i Married the only one out of that family who is close to normal! lol

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Well since I saw him naked almost every day growing up. My parents didn't sleep with clothes on so it was never hidden from me.
My husband volunteered the information when I brought up this thread and he said his entire family was his brothers, dad and cousin. So I found out just recently isn't exactly like we sit around finding out who is or isn't.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

I don't know if my Dad is circumcised or not. I never thought to ask, and he definitely never sat down and was like "Lisa, we have to have the talk. The talk, you know, about my penis."

My husband doesn't talk about my brother in-law's penis except to call him 'chode.'

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Obviously Not Krista because it would be because of something devastating that happened not because of a choice that I was asked to make for my son when he was born. Plain and simple I did what I felt was best for him and I stick by that. Really we seem to be going around in circles here. You will never see why I chose it so I can't keep repeating the same things over and over and over again. So I guess we are at a stalemate.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

You should TOTALLY come down for PenisFest, Krista. Lots of spectator sports. Why would you NOT want to?

*wink wink*

Krista - posted on 12/16/2010

Nope, I have no idea if my brother is circumcised. Mind you, he's my half-brother, and didn't grow up with me, so I would have only seen his diaper changed a few times, and I have no recollection as to whether he's circumcised or not.

And once again, why would your dad tell you the state of his brother's penises?

I just find that very odd. And obviously I'm not the only one who feels that way, as Lisa also indicated that she finds it odd.

At any rate, the fact remains that "looking like daddy" is an absurd reason to circumcise. A child's penis is going to look different from an adult's penis regardless of the state of its foreskin. And, like I said to Charley, if the adult was missing a testicle, would it be logical to remove the child's testicle so that daddy and son have matching genitals?

I guess I'd like an answer to that one from the pro-circ people. IF your husband was missing a testicle, would you consider it logical to remove your newborn son's testicle so that his genitals match his fathers?

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Go for it if you want Kimberly not my business.

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

They grew up here and they have all been friends since they were babies hence how I know Krista.



How can you not know your own brother is? I know all my brother in laws are because my husband does and told me. I know my cousins are because we grew up together our entire lives I all saw their diapers changed, I know my uncles are because they are my dads brothers he knew not me.



Krista seriously grow up!!

Kimberly - posted on 12/16/2010

Sherri, my youngest dd is overweight. She is constantly comparing herself to me and her sister. Maybe I should get her liposuction.

Krista - posted on 12/16/2010

They must not like clothing in New Hampshire or something. I have no idea if my friends' kids are circumcised. I have no idea if their husbands are circumcised. I have no idea if my brother, my nephews, my cousin, my uncle, my dad, my father-in-law, or my next-door-neighbour are circumcised.



I mean seriously...do you guys have PenisFest over there every spring or something, where everybody whips theirs out and compares notes?

Erin - posted on 12/16/2010

i dnt have nothing to worry about ill just keep on chopping penis

And here is our proof that Charley is a troll. Surely no parent, pro-circ or not, would refer to this abhorrent procedure in such a way.

Go away Charley. Seriously.

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Okay I been through this before Lisa. Maybe not everyone I know but all my friends children, their husbands, my brother, nephews, cousins, Uncles, brother in laws, dad and father in law and every male child I have ever watched in the 20yrs of being in childcare.

Charley - posted on 12/16/2010

blah blah blah

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

I do find it interesting that Sherri says that no one she knows is intact.



Um....I honestly don't know the penile state of any other male in my entire extended family on both sides besides my brother, my husband and my nephew, who's diaper I changed last weekend.



It's just not something that anyone is usually curious enough about to talk about.

Rebecca - posted on 12/16/2010

@Sherri - how exactly do you think kids are even going to find out that your boys are or are not circumcised? Circumcising your son won't prevent them from being picked on -- they will just be picked on about something else.

Shannen - posted on 12/16/2010

"They know that girls sit and boys stand"

Hehehehe Lisa, My boy sits on the toilet to do his business but i think thats because i am the one who is around him way more than his daddy who is working crazy hours atm.



@ Charley, I never once used the word Dick thank you very much. And yes you gave me a headache and if i want to have the full story to whats going on it's a fact that i need to read what you are writing so i don't go off half cocked and look like an idiot.

Also if you were educated then why write like someone who isn't? And why get your son circumsised?

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

But that's just the way children are, Sherri. Kids will find ANYTHING to pick on each other about. What if you were a minority? I know that the hispanic population in Nashua and the Indian population in Manchester are pretty high...



What would you do about that?



New Hampshire is such a teeny tiny state. Are they going to live here forever? Do they have penis comparing contests in the schools here now?



My husband is circumcised and is all for keeping our child, if he is a boy, intact. But I'm not deferring to him about it. It's nice that he agrees with me, but if it came down to his opinion and my child's bodily integrity...well...

Charley - posted on 12/16/2010

its still compared to cancer isnt it well im leaving this crazy shit i live across the world so i dnt have nothing to worry about ill just keep on chopping penis

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Because the majority of boys are still circumcised here in NH and because I would never want one of my children to be different or ostersized for being different. Children are cruel and not always intentionally but they are. I choose not to give a reason for my children to be picked on anymore then need be. Also my husband feels pretty strongly on the subject and I feel as a man and a man that is circumcised has a large say in this. If it was detrimental to him, I am pretty sure he would never want that for his children.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

Uuuuugh Charley



This is not in person. This is a debate. That's what we're here for.



Krista wasn't comparing cancer to circumcision. She was comparing the loss of a testicle [due to cancer] to the loss of a foreskin due to circumcision. Get it now?

Charley - posted on 12/16/2010

@Krista E. why would you even compare cancer to getting circumcised that is nothing alike . if i met any of you woman in person and u told me you decided to not circumcise your son i would back you up not argue with you thats just your opinion so why not back us up

LaCi - posted on 12/16/2010

I'll come back when the punctuation comes back. Toodles.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

Sherri- I guess what I've been wondering then throughout this debate, and probably what others have wondered, is, if now you know that the majority of the world is not circumcised, and that there aren't medical benefits to it, and that the trend in the US IS a decreasing rate of circumcision,



then why would you choose to circumcise any future boys (if you were to have them)?

Charley - posted on 12/16/2010

@Shannen i have a simple cure for you dont read my post. And i prefer not to call my sons penis a dick @ lisa im a very educated woman how i choose to type is because this is just a dicussion not a term paper @Erin H you decide to make your kids go to school dont you well why not let them decide that

Sherri - posted on 12/16/2010

Lisa it really comes down to this you do what you know and are comfortable with. This is my simple reasoning for having gotten all my son's circumcised. I had never heard of someone not being circumcised and I certainly had never seen a man without a circumcised penis.

Minnie - posted on 12/16/2010

Sherri- we're just trying to understand the reasoning behind circumcising because everyone else is. You're the one who brought up your husband walking around in the nude and your sons seeing him.