Gay marriage-Putting things in perspective

Susanne - posted on 05/11/2010

Nikki i do object to being called homophobic if you dont mind you say you appreciate me being calm about this subject then you start insulting me, not very nice.

Amanda - posted on 05/10/2010

so (a bit of a rant), i read a lot of responses to anything gay-marriage related to the effect of "I'm Christian, so I'm against it, blah, blah, blah" and this really gets me thinking along the lines of: did you have premarital sex? do you ever have sex for enjoyment rather than procreation? do you ever lust after someone other than your spouse? i could go on and on with such questions..... someone please tell me how being a homosexual is any worse than any of the above, because as long as anyone in the above categories is heterosexual they are allowed to marry... there isn't a single person on this planet that lives by the bible! besides that, how can the government use a definition of marriage with roots in religion to decide who is able to marry? i think it's time for the redefinition of marriage to suite modern times.

Krista - posted on 05/10/2010

Exactly. Susanne, you're making an awfully big assumption when you say that a child with gay parents is GUARANTEED to be bullied. Perhaps where you live, they would be. But perhaps in many other places, it wouldn't raise so much as an eyebrow.

And, like I mentioned earlier, if we had catered to the bigots by making it illegal in the U.S. for interracial couples to have kids, where do you think we'd be today? The way to overcome prejudice is not to coddle it and cater to it. And yes, it does take a certain amount of bravery. It was not all that long ago that kids of interracial couples would be given a very difficult time. In some places, they still are. But the funny thing is this: if kids grow up with interracial kids around them, it's something they're used to, and it becomes no big deal (unless the adults around them MAKE it into a big deal.)

The same thing CAN apply for kids of gay couples. If we don't coddle the bigots, and we let gays adopt, then it's not inconceivable that most every school will at some point have one or two kids with gay parents. And the kids will get used to it. And then, when THEY'RE adults, they will not raise their kids to be prejudiced against gays, because they'll remember going for a birthday party at Jimmy's house and how awesome his two dads were.

Making it illegal for gays to adopt will only guarantee that kids of gay people WILL be bullied, because a) they'll be such a rarity in society, and b) because a law like that would be the equivalent of state-sanctioned homophobia.

Nikki - posted on 05/10/2010

Susanne, I appreciate that you have stayed cool and collected regarding this issue and I really don't mean to offend you but I just think that you are making excuses for being homophobic, which is fine if you are, after all everyone is allowed to have their own views and beliefs.

I just think that by saying gay's shouldn't have children because they will be bullied and it is selfish doesn't make sense, if you go down that road you would have to start arguing that bi racial couples, obese couples, poor couples, red haired couples should not have children, typically these are all groups of people which are targeted for bullying.

At the end of the day the most important thing for each and every child, particularly children who are being bullied is that they have a loving and caring environment to come home to.

Susanne - posted on 05/10/2010

Unfortunately i cant make other people parent their children properly or i would. I also agree that children get bullied for all sorts of reasons such as being over weight etc. But would any of you as a parent do anything to intentionally that would guarantee your child gets bullied every day of its school life? I cant change other peoples opinions they have to change on their own and until they do i think gay people should choose not to subject children to suffering just because they want to be parents. To me the first thing you need to be a good parent is selflessness putting that child before yourself.

Amber - posted on 05/09/2010

You know what the worst part of this is? Suzanne seems to think that gays shouldn't have children because people will bully the children...but the thought never occurred to her to make the heterosexual parents act like, umm I don't know, PARENTS!
How about you teach people to parent their children correctly?
How about you teach those children that they should be respectful of others? How about you start making the next generation of children open minded and loving instead of continuing to allow them to grow into hateful, thoughtless, and cruel adults?
Then maybe there will be no bullying. Make those children responsible for their actions, make the parents do a better job.

Instead of taking depriving somebody of their happiness because others are too immature and selfish to accept them as they are, make them grow the hell up already.
The world does not revolve around you and your feelings, it's time to share the joy with the rest of the world.

Nikki - posted on 05/09/2010

Susanne this is a huge generalisation to make
"Tell you what then you see a child go through four years of hell just because some nasty little kid takes a disliking to him and then tell me that its ok because his parents love him. Not much of a consolation to that child who is left with serious psychological problems. It is a fact that in my area any child of gay parents would suffer bullying and any gay would be parent would be extremely selfish to try and bring kids up around here. What you want to do with your kids is up to you but i would not want my kids left damaged because of the selfishness of two men or two women."

Children are unfortunately bullied every day all over the world for some of the most stupid reasons. The most stupid and ignorant reason I can think of is because these bullies have taken on their parent's bigoted ideals, of racism, gender, religion, same sex couple ect. Bullying in this form continues because parents fuel it. If all parents in our generation were open minded and accepting of diversity and taught our children the same acceptance for the human race there would be no problems with bigoted bullying. But unfortunately that will never happen, people are just too different. So it's not the gay parents fault it's the ignorant parents who teach their children ignorance.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2010

If you think it's wrong that's your business...I can never, for the life of me figure out why people feel like they have the right to have a say in it.

America didn't vote to allow women to vote, they didn't vote to allow black people to sit on the bus...it's not your right to vote on other peoples' rights.

Isobel - posted on 05/09/2010

I think women who wear ugly clothes and kiss children in front of their friends shouldn't be allowed to adopt...because kids are cruel.

Krista - posted on 05/09/2010

What you want to do with your kids is up to you but i would not want my kids left damaged because of the selfishness of two men or two women.

So like I said...put that in your Last Will and Testament, that you, under no circumstances, want your children being adopted by a gay couple.

Your kids, your business. What I took issue with was the fact that you have stated that you think that gays should not be legally allowed to adopt. So this becomes more than your own personal preference for your own children. This becomes about you wanting to impose your personal preference on ALL of our children.

And personally, I think it's a little sad that instead of talking about how to combat this anti-gay bigotry in your area, you think that the solution is to cater to the bigots. Doing things your way will only ensure that your region continues to foster those anti-gay attitudes. There were lots of regions where a child of interracial parents would have been bullied or worse. It took some very brave parents and kids to defy that social taboo, and now, things are getting a lot better. But if they'd catered to the bigots and avoided having kids, then how would things ever improve? People don't magically become open-minded -- they become open-minded when they meet and get to know people who are in a different "group" and realize that deep down, we're not all so different after all.

Julia - posted on 05/09/2010

You know Susanne...I find that quite funny that you say that because when I was in the military, my family care plan had my daughter going to a gay couple if my ex got deployed at the same time as me. It didn't happen because he didn't go anywhere (I went to Iraq she just stayed with her father while I was gone) I know for a fact my daughter would have been loved and cared for and had more expensive clothes than me! That gay couple (two men) also adopted a little boy...he was 6 months old when they got him, he had been offered to 3 (yes I said 3) straight couples prior and none of them wanted the boy because he was born HIV Positive and addicted to drugs. These men opened their arms and have loved that boy from day 1! He is one of the most lovable normal kids you will see. PS that boy is in a PRIVATE CHRISTIAN School and has NEVER been made fun of because he has 2 fathers!!!!

As for gay marriage I agree that the uber religious are going to have to answer to whoever they believe in for judging people and hating on people for something they can't control. Marriage is not controlled by the church...marriage is controlled by the government...and the government can't tell someone who they can and cannot love. Hell the church can't do it either! Quit being selfish!!! Gays should have every right that is allowed to any other human being....including the right to marry and divorce and have children!!!

Susanne - posted on 05/09/2010

Tell you what then you see a child go through four years of hell just because some nasty little kid takes a disliking to him and then tell me that its ok because his parents love him. Not much of a consolation to that child who is left with serious psychological problems. It is a fact that in my area any child of gay parents would suffer bullying and any gay would be parent would be extremely selfish to try and bring kids up around here. What you want to do with your kids is up to you but i would not want my kids left damaged because of the selfishness of two men or two women.

Brandi - posted on 05/08/2010

I can't believe normal adults would deny homeless children homes because their religion has a problem with it. That is just the epitome of ignorance and narcissism.

In fact, I think some of these people should have to explain to the children who wouldn't mind gay parents and want to be adopted why they don't think they should get that opportunity.

My ex boss was a lesbian. Her partner of decades is an architect. Any child adopted by them would certainly live a charmed life. If you have a problem with that, then you have no soul.

That's just my opinion though.

Krista - posted on 05/08/2010

I certainly would not be happy if my sons were adopted by a gay couple if anything happened to my husband and I. Not because I think they would be bad parents but because i have seen one of my children bullied in school already and i wouldnt want any of my kids put in the position that it could happen again.

Put that in your will, then.

But not everybody feels the way that you do, so it's rather unfair for you to think that your way should be the law of the land. If I have no issue with a gay couple adopting my child, and something happens to me, and there is an awesome gay couple available who would take in Sam and raise him well, then why should this all be taken away just because Susanne Young, who has nothing to do with me or my kid, thinks that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt?

Nikki - posted on 05/08/2010

I suppose one thing you can say for most gay parents is that for all of the blood, sweat, tears and political rigmarole they have to go through to actually get a child at least they have taken the time and consideration to plan for a family. I would rather see happy married gay parents in my neighbourhood than crack addicts with 5 different children to 5 different men draining society and dragging their poor children down with them.



I think gays should have the right to get married if they choose.



I just don't understand how anyone thinks they have the right to deny happiness to gay individuals, how is it any ones' business?



In my state in Australia biological parents including gays have finally won the rights to be registered as the child's legal parent after they have been through surrogacy. Which I think is fantastic.



As time goes on hopefully it will become more socially acceptable for same sex couple to marry and to have children. Today in Australian schools stories about my two mummies etc are being read to children, so hopefully with a new generation of children being educated to accept diversity we can raise a new acceptance and understanding.

Jenny - posted on 05/07/2010

You're damn right there Brandi!

Brandi - posted on 05/07/2010

How about we let the child who needs a home decide if they mind their adoptive parents being gay? Cuz guess what?! That's the only opinion that matters!

Shavaune - posted on 05/07/2010

Well I look at it this way. I have 4 bi-racial children. Now where I live race has almost never been an issue. But even if I lived in a place where there were racist people were on every corner it would not of affected my decision to have children with my spouse. You can't put everyone in a box because in some regions just haven't caught up in the acceptance of non-traditional relationships. Its for parents to make those kinds of decisions based on the kind of situation they are in and where they live, not the government.

Susanne - posted on 05/07/2010

But letting them decide a childs fate isnt very fair to that child just because they think they can handle it. A child has no say in the matter of who their parents are and in the case of adoptive children i dont think its in their best interests. I certainly would not be happy if my sons were adopted by a gay couple if anything happened to my husband and I. Not because I think they would be bad parents but because i have seen one of my children bullied in school already and i wouldnt want any of my kids put in the position that it could happen again.

Krista - posted on 05/07/2010

That's why it should be up to the adoptive parents, Susanne -- not the state. You would ban gays from adopting, because where YOU live, the kids might get bullied. But in other places, they might not. So it's not really fair to have that blanket ban on there, based solely on the social situation in your region.

I would think that most gay couples who DO live in an area with a lot of anti-gay prejudice will give that factor a lot of thought before deciding whether or not to adopt. Adoption is not a quick process, so they'd have lots of time to weigh the pros and cons, and to figure out how they'd deal with it if their child was bullied for having gay parents. A lot of gay people were badly bullied themselves, so I highly doubt it's a decision they'd make lightly.

But, at the end of the day, after having considered all of that, if they decide that they still want to adopt, then that should be their choice, instead of the state saying, "we don't trust you to have the mental capacity to make that choice, so we're going to make it for you."

Susanne - posted on 05/07/2010

Im just stating what would happen where i live i dont know if people are more tolerant in other areas but where im from it would be the kids problem because that kid would be bullied every day of the poor kids childhood.

Shavaune - posted on 05/07/2010

My nephews father is gay and he is 12 years old and has never been teased so far. Other kids only know what their their own parents have taught them. It is becoming more and more acceptable to be gay with every generation that passes by and people are just going to have to get over it like they have been progressively getting over the race and culture thing. Kids can be picked on for anything from weight to their clothes to their haircuts. You can't keep them in a bubble away from society. It's part of life to learn to deal with assholes unfortunately.

Amber - posted on 05/07/2010

The kids will be bullied? What? My best friend in high school lived with her mother and her mother's girl friend. Nobody ever bullied her and I grew to be a part of their family. She was very popular and I can't think of a person who knew her that didn't adore her.
She was the lead in almost every school play, got solos in chorus, was part of honor society, and lots of other clubs. (I went to a high school with 3,500-4000 students)
Will ignorant people occasionally make comments? Yes. But as a whole, the children can grow up just as happy and well adjusted as any other adopted child!

@Yolande, you said for an atheist that view was fine, but as a Christian you see it as wrong. I'm a Christian, and I don't agree with you. So, it's a matter of personal opinion not religious affiliation.

Krista - posted on 05/07/2010

Exactly. If we don't allow gay people to adopt, because we think kids will be cruel, then that won't solve a damn thing. The only way to solve that problem is by letting gays adopt, letting everybody get used to it, and then it becomes no big deal. Susanne, your argument is the same one that used to be given when saying that interracial couples should not have children -- that they would be bullied or teased. And do some interracial kids have a difficult time? Yes. But as it becomes more and more commonplace, it's becoming less of a big deal. And a lot of people born of interracial couples are actually very proud of their mixed heritage.

And if other people are prejudiced, why is that the KID'S problem? Why is that their parents' problem? If other people are prejudiced, that's their OWN damn problem, and I see no reason why we should cater to their prejudices by restricting other peoples' personal lives. I mean jeez...some people are really prejudiced against atheists. If we catered to that and started telling atheists that they couldn't have kids, because they might be treated badly? Come on.

Emma - posted on 05/07/2010

I just think if someone can give an unwanted child a loving home it should not mater what there Race, Religion or sexual preference is. It has no bearing on there ability to parent a child.
Children pick up there prejudiced from there parents, we can not let peoples ignorance and prejudice run the show, we have not in the past when we fought for equal rights for woman, for blacks ect this is the same thing.

Susanne - posted on 05/07/2010

Well i think you'll find that fat people are being refused to adopt on medical grounds, ive never heard of anyone being bullied because their parents are vegetarians or atheists. But obviously in regards to muslims yes they do get prejudiced against but then again so do white people in areas that are typically all muslim. But very rarely are children given to adoptive parents that are not of the same race or religion. Im not saying its right but it happens.

Emma - posted on 05/07/2010

Susanne
but then we should not allow adoption of kids to people of different races as kids can be cruel, or to fat people, Atheists, Jews, Muslims, vegetarians ect ect
Kids can find things to be cruel about no matter what.

Susanne - posted on 05/07/2010

I think if a gay couple want to marry they should be allowed to but if they think getting the right to marry will automatically mean that everyone will accept being gay as normal they are wrong. There will always be people who disagree with homosexuality i cant ever see that changing and for that reason i think although marraige should be allowed adoption for gay couples should not regardless of whether they'd make good parents or not. Other people can be hurtful and nasty its not fair on kids having to deal with their prejudice.

Brandi - posted on 05/04/2010

People thinking they have any business saying someone else's relationship is "morally wrong" is the exact reason why people lie about being gay. No real reason for you to complain about that one.

Yolande - posted on 05/04/2010

I understand your point of view and it is fine as an atheist but as a Christian to me it is morally wrong. Although yes he did feel he had to stay in the closet, when he was asked whether if he had a chance to change his pasthe said he would do it all over again exactly the same...

Amber - posted on 05/04/2010

My father did the same thing to my mother...but with women. He cheated and spent all of his (and her) hard earned money on other women! She had to get a separate bank account and eventually left him.
I don't hate all heterosexual men though...I realize that it was he who did all of those things. HE cheated on my mom, HE left us...not every other man in the world. And it took me a while to see that...and it took me a few relationships to see that.
I threw away a couple of people that could have been good for me because I could not forgive. Now that I have forgiven and recognize the difference, I have found a man I adore and who adores me back.
You have to separate the one man from the vast group of men.

Charlie - posted on 05/03/2010

Im sorry for your experience .

Many gay men felt they had to put up a straight front for fear of being shamed and outcast , if people can learn to accept homosexuals so that they can live an open life then they wouldn't have to live a lie and no one would get hurt i personally think society is at fault and not sexuality .

I can tell you many straight people have done the exact same thing to their own families .

Krista - posted on 05/03/2010

Exactly, Yolande. So many gay men and women HAD to be closeted for such a long time, and so many of them tried very hard to live the life of straight people, but they just couldn't. Not that this is an excuse for what your father did, obviously.



Now that being gay is much more socially acceptable, you see less and less of this happening.



So no, being gay doesn't hurt anybody. It's when gay people are forced to hide who they are that people get hurt.



Edit: I do want to add, though, that I'm certainly not blaming you for feeling the way you feel. What you went through was terrible, and I would never presume to tell you how you should feel, as I've never been in your shoes. I can only hope that you can eventually realize that looking down on gay people because of what your dad did is no more logical than my looking down on straight men because my own dad was a philanderer.

Jenny - posted on 05/03/2010

Yolande, I'm sorry for you experience but you are confusing being a homosexual for being a cheating bastard.

The more accepting we are as a society, the more likely people will comes to terms with their feelings before living a lie for a lifetime and putting their family through such hard times.

Yolande - posted on 05/03/2010

@ People who say homosexual people dont hurt anyone. It hurts when its a guy whos been cheating on his wife for 19 years of marriage and admits to only getting married to keep a pose, it hurts when you are the child of that person and he cares more for other guys who are as old as your boyfriends and decides to leave you and your family penniless cause hed rather spend it on young men to get anal sex. It hurts when you then have children and have to explain to them who their grandfather is... So in my opinion (also as a Christian) i feel its wrong.

Jane - posted on 05/02/2010

Marriage is a waste of time anymore. I'm all for gay marriage but honestly, I think the idea of marriage is outdated!

Krista - posted on 05/02/2010

Quote: "Then, if a couple desired to be 'married' with religious connotations then that could be a separate religious ceremony honored by the church, but without additional legal benefits and/or ramifications. It seems to me this would be a good compromise with the religious groups without having to compromise anyone's human rights."



I disagree. This "separate but equal" solution would basically lead to those who married in churches feeling as though their marriages are more valid than those of us who did not get married in a church. Maybe they already feel that way, but why validate that by giving them their own special terminology? Plus, you would then have to change the terminology on laws, HR policies, policies at hospitals, etc. etc. There is too much of a risk of something slipping through the cracks and a "civil unioned" couple getting screwed out of their rights.



The only true way for it to be equal is for marriage to be marriage to be marriage, regardless of whether you are gay and got married in a church, or straight and married in a cornfield.



The word "marriage" does NOT intrinsically belong to the religious. The institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history. It wasn't until after the 1500's that a religious ceremony was considered a necessary part of getting married. So really, religion had NOTHING to do with marriage until then.



So WHY do I keep seeing this cockamamie idea that we should allow the religious people to have sole claim to the term "marriage"?

Kristin - posted on 05/02/2010

Love it, this comment is great.

Stephany - posted on 05/02/2010

@ Belinda- that kid SOUNDS awesome!
I actually think we should remove the word 'marriage' from the whole equation- for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. We can't force religious institutions to be all-inclusive, and the status quo allows married individuals certain legal benefits that aren't allowed to unmarried individuals. I don't think that most religious people will ever get over the use of the word 'marriage' in the bible (meaning between one man and one woman). Therefore, I say we take the legal power out of the word 'marriage'. In my view, couples should apply for a civil unionship license (rather than marriage license), which allows all people the legal and social benefits that the current marriage license does. Then, if a couple desired to be 'married' with religious connotations then that could be a separate religious ceremony honored by the church, but without additional legal benefits and/or ramifications. It seems to me this would be a good compromise with the religious groups without having to compromise anyone's human rights.

Belinda - posted on 05/01/2010

I don't care who marries who.



But for that church, If they were to protest at my husbands funeral they would find themselves looking down the barrel of my 40. Scratch that...I'll break out my 12 gauge. Some asshole carries his sigh outside housing. It says "God hates soldiers" "God hates fags"...Some awesome kid stood next to him with a sign that said "God hates this guy"

Krista - posted on 05/01/2010

No, they're not Christians. They're just an ugly cult. And if they keep picketing military funerals, I imagine someday some military family member will find a way of permanently dealing with them. (Not that I'd wish that upon anybody, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if it happened.)

Christa - posted on 05/01/2010

For the record I'm a Christian and as I previously stated against gay marriage, but even I hate those a-holes. They are no Christians in my eyes!

Rosie - posted on 05/01/2010

tanya, those a-holes said they were coming to my area a while back and they didn't show. there were hundreds ready to protest against them, but they all just hung out with their signs waiting for the cowards to show up. hopefully they'll do the same for you and you won't have to witness their dispicable ways.

Tanya - posted on 05/01/2010

I just found out that the Westboro Baptist Church is coming to my area. They are the people with the god hates fags signs. They are also the people who protest at soldiers funerals b/c they protect a fag loving country. I can't believe some people. I am for gay people have the same rights as everyone else. I think the all people should have the same rights.

Teresa - posted on 05/01/2010

I'm against it, but I'm against a lot of things that most people think are totally fine.



That's one of the reasons I don't vote though, so please don't accuse me of denying anyone anything. :)

Amber - posted on 05/01/2010

Allowing civil partnerships is NOT a happy medium...I understand that you aren't from America...but in American history this was tried in the form of segregation of blacks and whites. It was proven by psychologists that the very IDEA of having to have a seperation formed feelings of inferiority among the group that was not given equal rights.
If you are telling these people that they are not allowed to have the same exact rights of others, then they will continue to feel inferior and it will not fix the problem. All people should be allowed to love who they want and have all the rights that are given to others.
Eventually people will accept the new status quo, but refusing people rights because it might offend somebody is completely wrong. You cannot continue to oppress people just because a group of people are offended that they want their rights.

Jennifer - posted on 05/01/2010

Personally it wouldn't make a difference to me but it would to those who are highly religious. Either way not everyone's gonna be happy and I think allowing civil partnerships is a happy medium. If people wana call it marriage that's their choice.

Krista - posted on 05/01/2010

But Jennifer, what actual, practical difference does it make?

I've seen this argument many times before, that people are upset about the definition of marriage changing.

So what if it does? Does that affect your marriage? Does it affect mine? What TANGIBLE negative effects would it have?

I just find it ludicrous that people would deny someone else something that THEY freely enjoy, based solely on semantics.

Jennifer - posted on 05/01/2010

Here in the UK gay couples can unite by means of a "civil partnership". I think they should be able to do this but that it should never be referred to as a marriage. The meaning of marriage is the bringing together of a man and a woman and that's the way the definition should stay. Yes by all means gay couples should be allowed the same rights as married heterosexual couples and they can by means of civil partnership.

Emma - posted on 05/01/2010

Well we have had gay marriage in SA for a while now and the sky has not fallen, i think people get there knickers in a knot do to there belief that marriage is all about religion and its not i got married and im an Atheist.
So that sort of blows the religious objections out the water in my view.
Really as others of you have said it in no way affects other peoples mirages or lives.