Have you ever concidered there might Not be a God?

Lady - posted on 06/11/2010 ( 126 moms have responded )

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Most athiests have had some sort of religious teachings. They have either had religious parents, attened church or suday school or at least learned about god in school. Therefore the choice to be an athiest does not come from ignorance of god or the bible they just doen't believe it.

I'm curious to know if christians and believers have looked at the otherside? Have any of you read Richard Dawkins or any other athiest literature?

When my husband was deciding he was an athiest he read extensively about both sides of the argument. Including the bible and the book written by the chap who was a devoute athiest and set out once and for all to prove he was right and ended up a born again christian. But still the counter argument was too strong and made much more sense to him.

I'm not trying to bash religion in this thread or change any bodies mind - I am simply curious to know if people have looked at both sides of the argument or have they just been happy believeing what they were taught?

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Allison - posted on 06/11/2010

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I was also raised Roman Catholic, and although I NEVER believed any of the rules/regulations or most of the bible, I was a TOTAL believer in Jesus and God until college. Until that time, I felt I had a person relationship with God and talked to him all the time. Then, after I left my family and started learning philosophy and science I felt quite a bit more agnostic. I started to realize that I was actually talking to myself, and answering my own questions the way I wanted to...and I realized that most of my beliefs were based on this dreamy fairy tale I had been taught, and there were WAY more parts of it that I didn't believe than there were parts that I did. So only after several years and much soul-searching I became 100% atheist.



I am a scientist, and the more I learned, the more BEAUTY I found in a world shaped by magnificent natural forces that need NO deity directing or forming them. It all follows naturally from the big bang, from the tiniest electron to the biggest supernova to my son's beautiful blue eyes - we are all shaped by these powerful, unchanging, ordered natural laws. That is WAY more amazing and meaningful to me than any magical fairy tale!!! And it gives me way more reason to live a full and GOOD life when I only have this one, tangible life and world. We better take superb care of ourselves and our world if it's the only one we have!



I think that what carries on is all of our combined actions and words. I mean, we all touch SO many people each day, who interact with others, and on and on. We are all connected, from the beginning of humanity until today. Not to mention to all of the plants, animals and the entire ecosystem we inhabit...it is ALL incredibly connected . THAT brings tears to my eyes, and I don't have to imagine it or convince myself or anyone else that it's real - I can SEE it and TOUCH it and TASTE it and HEAR it and SMELL it - and so can everyone else !!!



@ Alison P. - I wish I knew more atheists!!! Everywhere I have ever lived, I have been pretty scared to "come out" for fear of rejection and criticism, if not total condemnation by my friends and family :( I'm trying to have a little more faith in THEM - that is, trust that they will be able to handle it, even though the evidence shows otherwise - but still haven't told too many of them...they all assume I believe in God and always want me to go to church...*sigh* I have only my husband and ONE friend who I know share my beliefs. What I miss most about church is the sense of community - so I am trying to find it in other ways. I love these discussions :)

[deleted account]

Samantha, if your god is real and Genesis is a factual account - then only 2 people sinned and Jesus is wrong that children cannot be held accountable for the sins of the parent. If we continue with the concept that the Bible is 100% factual, we must accept that the slaughter of children and the mass rape of young virgin girls can be a moral and rightous act. (Numbers 31:15-18)



If the Bible were true, 100% factual, then I would not be able to tolerate that god for I find that character's morality to be capricious, vain and untrustworthy.



Again, this were if the Bible was 100% factual. Mind you, I hold Yahweh in no special low esteem, for example I find Zeus to be a rampant rapist whom I also would choose not to worship anytime soon.

Tanya - posted on 06/12/2010

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Also thank you Meghan Maloy.

Myth:
Atheism is just another religion.

Perhaps it would also help to examine what a religion is. The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, in its article on Religion, lists some characteristics of religions. The more markers that are present in a belief system, the more "religious like" it is. Because it allows for broader gray areas in the concept of religion, I prefer this over more simplistic definitions we can find in basic dictionaries. Read the list and see how atheism fares :

1. Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
2. A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
3. Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
4. A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
5. Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
6. Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
7. A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
8. A more or less total organization of one's life based on the world view.
9. A social group bound together by the above.

To try and claim that atheism is a religion requires, it should be pretty obvious from the above, a radical ad hock redefinition in what it is that "being a religion" is supposed to mean, resulting in a radically equivocal use of the new term-- if atheism is a religion, then just what isn't a religion?

SO NO ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!!!!

In addition, it should be noted that theism itself does not qualify as a religion based upon the above - and for most of the same reasons that atheism does not qualify. When you stop to think about it, theism - the mere belief in god(s) - does not automatically entail almost any of the beliefs or practices listed in either the above letter or the above definition. In order to have a religion, you need quite a bit more than either simple belief or disbelief. This fact is clearly reflected in the real world, because we find theism which exists outside of religion and religion which exists without theism.

Atheism is a disbelief, not a philosophy. My disbelief in the Tooth Fairy is not a philosophy of life - is it for anyone else? Furthermore, a philosophy of life is not necessarily a religion and it doesn't necessitate that a religious belief exists in the person with the philosophy.

Krista - posted on 06/12/2010

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Saddens me to see all of the people who have not asked Jesus in their hearts because I know of their fate.



Um, no. You don't. You BELIEVE you know. But unless you actually died and saw what was in the afterlife and have come back to tell us all about it, then you don't know any more than the rest of us about what happens after we die.

Allison - posted on 06/28/2010

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Wow, what a fun thread :) My brother picked up a pamphlet on the creation museum from someone at school. Pretty loopy stuff.



Something really interesting from one of Dawkin's essays - within the next 50 years, we will be able to map out the entire evolutionary tree connecting all the way from bacteria to humans by comparing entire genomes. We're already partway there. It's pretty awesome, and absolutely without a doubt proves that evolution made us (and every other living thing) what we are today...but I wonder, still, if people will not believe that, even when the proof is visible and verified over and over ???



That is what worries me, when people blatantly deny tangible, visible, logical, reasonable and WONDERFUL facts just so they don't have to admit they were mistaken. I mean, I think that is why so many atrocities occur in the name of religion, because *many* religious people don't believe they have to live within the laws of this world, but by whatever rules they have fabricated in their head or religious sect - no matter who else it hurts :( If it was harmless, I wouldn't argue so much about religion, but it can be a very harmful and devastating force in the world - not to say it's the only one, of course - but it is a pretty powerful and pervasive force, to be sure. And even if your religion is good and helps people, I think that the very act of TOLERATING "laws beyond this world" supports the VALIDITY of religious sects whose laws are quite damaging to life on this planet. (Now I'm sounding a bit like Dawkins, I think...)

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[deleted account]

Hey ladies-
This is one of those old threads that I was talking about in the pinned post at the top of our group. I'm going to lock this one. If you're really interested in the topic, then please start a new thread so we can have a fresh debate.

Thanks,
Sara
Admin

Merry - posted on 03/06/2011

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After my mom died of cancer when I was 15 I debated inside my head if god existed or not. I was raised very strongly Christian and was a firm believer I thought. But when my kind and loving god let my mom die.........it was hard to believe he existed.

I went a while not believing, and then after a while i started trying to figure it all out. I looked into alot of faiths, and also into what atheists believed etc. In the end I started believing in god even more strongly then before. Every other religion or belief of any kind just didn't make sense to me, it just seemed so confusing and didn't work in my mind. Christianity, the bible, Jesus, these things when I dug deeper into it all made sense. So I became a Christian again, and now I feel so glad I went through that time of searching, because now I know it's MY faith, not just what I was taught.

It's really good to be able to question how we were raised, but kind of nice when after looking into it, you find that you actually agree with how your parents raised you.

Jessica - posted on 03/06/2011

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I was not raised in a religion house per say, my dad is christian but not so big into it and my mom is pagan. I did a bunch of research, read the bible, the book of mormon, etc and all I found is that if God really does exist? count me out, sounds like a jackass to me. So no, I don't believe God is real and that religion is very likely the worse thing the human race ever came up with. So much bad done in the name of an imaginary friend that mass amount of people seem to need to cope with life. Sorry to those that offends, but thats my opinion.

Cherish - posted on 03/06/2011

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I used to go to church and I used to believe in god. until when i was 13 and my mom was diagnosed with Huntington. I stopped believing right there. What kind of sick god would cause a beautiful mother 0f f KIDS to get a life threating disease.And now im 23 and have had a long time to think about church and god.And I simply dont believe. I am an atheist..I dont believe in god or satan nor going to heaven and hell. To me the bible is nothing but another book, nothing but fairy tales as that one mom said. Not to be rude but hell and satan in my my eyes is just something to scare people into believing and being good.I just dont believe in any of it. And shalaina there is proof that we evolved from monkeys, but wheres the proof that god made adam and eve from the dust and eve from adams bone. There is none.. I will never accept him into my heart. He didnt help me when my mom was dying or when my dad was beating me every day. Hell never be in my heart because I dont believe

[deleted account]

I got it Pamela, this whole ' - God doesn't want robots who worship no matter what" is really just nonsense? That's exactly what he wants and will get no matter what.

That's a bully, not a beneficient being.

Nikki - posted on 06/27/2010

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I was raised both greek orthodox and catholic went to a catholic school and attended mass every Friday @ school. My husband was raised jewish..both of us do not believe there in God, we find evolution seems to make alot more sense. We celebrate the holidays on both sides, but see it more as a time to get together and spend time with family and we both hope that when we die we go somewhere other then just in the coffin we are buried in. We dont believe praying to a higher power will give us strength and success, we believe if we want something then we need to go out and get it and we rely on ourselves not on the belief if we hope for it enough it will come.

Lesli - posted on 06/27/2010

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i was raised in Italy in a roman Catholic country in a city where there was one family that was Agnostic. I had religion shoved in me like no other. At the same time, i had very bad things happen to me that were outside my control, things people that were supposed to love me did to me... i was so devastated and confused, because i was a kid, i couldn't do anything and how can ANY good god allow things like this to happen? At a very young age, i picked up alternative literatures. Everything from Norse to atheist...I do believe there is no god, and that god is an invention of man to help keep its sanity. in the words of Dostoevsky " man, so long as it remains free, has no more agonizing anxiety than to find as quickly as possible someone to worship".

i think it's more important to think about what we do here on earth and the quality of life we live than to be worrying about going to heaven or hell. I have a very humanistic view of life, and i believe that you should be honorable for yourself, and live a good life because you want to be remembered like an honorable being who actually did something with it's life. I do not need the concept of god to keep my sanity, because i know that life can be insane and that sanity is a choice of mind. I think that keeping yourself in that perspective, knowing that we are human and that we make mistakes and that it's ok to give judgement if it's in the best interested of all makes me live in a way that , if there is a god, i am not scared of his judgement because i did what i thought best for all in my judgement and i followed the morals i thought were right and i tried not to hurt anyone in my way the way i was hurt.

But i don't think believing in god is bad... in fact, i think it makes some people better persons. It just didn't work for me... i need something with stronger morals and i need to to that there are instant consequences in our actions, not leave it up to god.

Abby - posted on 06/27/2010

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come on now we all know the is no god deep down you know. if you smoke dmt you will no the truth its the chemical that is released when your born, dream, and die. its also in every living thing. no religion will ever tell you that cause all they want is control, money, and deffinatly not happines and peace. logic is not their concern.

Tanya - posted on 06/26/2010

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I understand what the verse is talking about, but it does bring up some questions

Pamela - posted on 06/26/2010

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The point here is that there will come a time when all will recognize that there is a God and that he is indeed the Lord and Creator of all. There will be no choice at that point because it will be undeniable. We can bow now or we can bow later (even at the expense of our will).

But now, here on this planet, we have the choice to trust in him and walk that out in our lives; or we can choose not too. This is where free will plays into the picture. But there will come a time where that choice will be solidified in a sense. The choice is eternity with him or eternity without him. As C.S. Lewis once said, we can say 'Thy will be done' to God now or God can say to us in the final reckoning 'thy will be done'.

Tanya - posted on 06/26/2010

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EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear. Isaiah 45:23

So what happened to my free will?

Pamela - posted on 06/25/2010

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I'm currently reading Christopher Hitchen's book, "god Is Not Great" and Richard Dawkin's, "The God Delusion". Both are really interesting reads (I'm not so far into Dawkin's yet). My only complaint so far with Hitchen's book is his rather shallow interpretation of scripture - he builds some pretty good straw men arguments from it. Otherwise, he is definitely an engaging author and certainly has me thinking.

Krista - posted on 06/25/2010

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Damn tooting, Tanya. And that's something that Roland DEFINITELY found out for himself, didn't he?

Krista - posted on 06/25/2010

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Yeah, I've heard of it. Hominids and dinosaurs hanging out together -- oy.

Tanya - posted on 06/25/2010

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Have you guys seen this?

AND PREPARE TO BELIEVE
The state-of-the-art 70,000 square foot museum brings the pages of the Bible to life, casting its characters and animals in dynamic form and placing them in familiar settings. Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden. Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden’s Rivers. The serpent coils cunningly in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Majestic murals, great masterpieces brimming with pulsating colors and details, provide a backdrop for many of the settings.

http://creationmuseum.org/

[deleted account]

But I like garlic and keep it around anyway. Therefore I'm safe unless of course vampires don't have noses...

The worst vampire though to run into is the atheist vampire. LOL

The truth is out there.... ;-)

Johnny - posted on 06/24/2010

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Do you worry that by not hanging garlic around your house and keeping a wooden cross next to your bed that vampires may come to suck your blood in the night?

Probably not, because you probably don't believe in vampires. Most people, actually virtually all people, do not bother to hedge their bets against something that they do not believe exists.

I'm sure you don't sit up at night wondering if maybe, just maybe you should stop by the store tomorrow and pick up a row of garlic for the front door. But let me know if this suggestion leads you to give it a shot. That would really give me something to ponder.

[deleted account]

In addition to what Krista said, I would be annoyed that only after i'm dead do I get proof of a deity or not. I don't worry about it. I worry more about the idea that if there is some god-like being out there, it's going to be a terrible disappointment to all the religious folks.

Krista - posted on 06/24/2010

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What if there is a God? What if you die today? What will happen to you? I don't want to scare anyone or bully anyone in to believing.

And what if there is? If I don't believe, I don't believe. I cannot force myself into believing, just to hedge my bets. I could lie, and say that I believe, but I'm thinking that if there is a god, he's probably not big on lying. And if I die and lo and behold, find myself standing before the Christian deity, I'd probably say much the same thing that Jen said. Cripes, it's not like I could do anything about it at that point anyway, right?

Krista - posted on 06/24/2010

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Do you get this heated when someone talks about Alice In Wonder Land or The Three Little Pigs? I think not.

Not really. But that's because most people do not believe that the Cheshire Cat created the universe, that our country's laws should reflect his philosophies, and that anybody who doesn't believe in him has no morals or values.

But if someone DID, then sure I would get "heated" -- it does tend to get one "heated" when other people judge you for not believing in their made-up stories and try to have it legislated that you should live by those stories, even though there isn't a lick of proof to confirm that they're real.

Would you get "heated" if people tried to enforce laws in your country based on the Qu'ran or on Dianetics?

[deleted account]

"Here is something else to think about. What if there is a God? What if you die today? What will happen to you?"

I assume you mean Yahweh. I would have not kneel unless forced. I would not worship because I find that particular god to be very unpleasant. I find it incredibly immoral to punish a person infinitely for a finite crime. Let's say I was even able to go to Heaven forever, I could never enjoy it knowing that so many other people were suffering forever. It would be wrong.

So I would say, "I lived my life with courage. I lived my life with honor. I lived my life as a human. You are infinitely powerful, you can do what you wish no matter what I say. Abusing that power makes you a bully, not benevolent. Do what you will."

[deleted account]

In the spirit of honest research though, can you please tell me what you've read/viewed outside of Ben Stein's film. You referred us to 2 websites with the hopes that we'll read them, so I ask have you read anything at talkorigins.com?



Oh and I never personally had a bad experience with a priest or anything like that. It was just my own pure thinking that led me here.

Michelle - posted on 06/24/2010

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As usual those of you who do not believe seem to be getting hot under the coller. Have you ever asked yourselves "why are there so many heated debates about a fantasy or myth'? Do you get this heated when someone talks about Alice In Wonder Land or The Three Little Pigs? I think not.
There are simply too many things in these statements that are clearly false. I really don't have time to debate each statement. But I will comment on one of the "Canadian Commie's" about that "there are people who understand how the human body works". There are amazing scientists and doctors who understand so much of what I could never begin to understand. But find the most brilliant doctor in the world and ask him or her if they completly understand how our body fucntions with no doubts whatsoever. If that doctor is honest he or she will say "no, I'm am still in awe and wonder at the human body". I don't want to make anyone mad, but do a little more reseach. Open minded research. Just like you don't want people to believe just beacause, don't not believe just because it's more popular right now. I'm sure the stats are right about atheism being on the rise is right. I simply meant people who convert from on to another. Here is something else to think about. What if there is a God? What if you die today? What will happen to you? I don't want to scare anyone or bully anyone in to believing. A lot of you have probably had bad experiences with so-called Christians or preachers. In everything and everyone there is good and bad. Were not all alike. I have enjoyed reading your responses. And if I am honest I will have to say, yea they did make me a little hot under the coller. But that's because I love God and he has done so much for me. I do respect all your opinions though. God Bless each of you.

[deleted account]

Ok Michelle, you're making several statements. Show me the stats on Christians turning to atheists and the opposite unless this is just your fantasy whichis fine, just don't present it as fact. Like much of fantasy and myth, we don't care if you believe it, just don't present it as fact.

I'll make a deal with you though, I'll go read one of your websites if you read some of mine?

Krista - posted on 06/23/2010

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I must be tired, Tanya. I read that as the Large Hardon Collider.

Bah-ha-ha!

Tanya - posted on 06/23/2010

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The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a gigantic scientific instrument near Geneva, where it spans the border between Switzerland and France about 100 m underground. It is a particle accelerator used by physicists to study the smallest known particles – the fundamental building blocks of all things. It will revolutionise our understanding, from the minuscule world deep within atoms to the vastness of the Universe.

Two beams of subatomic particles called 'hadrons' – either protons or lead ions – will travel in opposite directions inside the circular accelerator, gaining energy with every lap. Physicists will use the LHC to recreate the conditions just after the Big Bang, by colliding the two beams head-on at very high energy. Teams of physicists from around the world will analyse the particles created in the collisions using special detectors in a number of experiments dedicated to the LHC.

There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions, but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator, as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe. For decades, the Standard Model of particle physics has served physicists well as a means of understanding the fundamental laws of Nature, but it does not tell the whole story. Only experimental data using the higher energies reached by the LHC can push knowledge forward, challenging those who seek confirmation of established knowledge, and those who dare to dream beyond the paradigm.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/lhc/...

You can read a more at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadro...


So IMO its not just chance. It is Science.

Jenny - posted on 06/23/2010

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Michelle: This is my opinion. I have heard both sides and read lots of different things on the subject. In my opinion it's crazy to think there is no God. To think that life just happened? Seriously does that really make sense. To think that this world and all the life in it had no purpose or design.

Me: That is attributing anthropomorphic qualities where they do not apply. Life just IS. It exists in every nook and cranny, even where not “expected”. That is evolution. Evolution explains the diversity of life on our planet from the point of the Big Bang (or however else it all started) forward. I’d like to add extra emphasis that evolution does not encompass the starting point.

Michelle: They have probably been more atheists that changed their mind about creation than Christians that changed to atheists. I know of many.

Me: Statistics show the reverse to be true. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27a... Here is a snippet: Polls show that the ranks of atheists are growing. The American Religious Identification Survey, a major study released last month, found that those who claimed “no religion” were the only demographic group that grew in all 50 states in the last 18 years.

Michelle: Also there are so many things that we still don't even understand. The human body is so very complex that we are still learning. Do you really think all that just happened by accident? I certainly do not claim to know everything, but I get get tired of non-believers treating us like we are just putting our faith in fairy tales. Like we are children who will believe anything. If you will do your research you will find there are so much more pointing to creationism than Darwinism.

Me: People smarter than you or I do understand how it works. There is a ton of evidence for evolution and we didn’t even need a single fossil to figure it out. It was not an accident. It was random mutations that spread through reproduction. Look what humans have done with the domestic dog in just a few generation or what your body did with a sperm and an egg in 40 weeks. Now imagine the change that can occur over billions of years. The Lenski E. Coli experiments are a modern, startling demonstration of evolution in action. Again, not understanding how something works doesn’t make it false.

Michelle: I think there is a reason that there is no concrete proof that there is a God. He wants us to believe with our hearts and our souls, not our brains. Not to say he wants us to be stupid or uneducated. But there is a time for faith and a time for analytical. Watch Ben Stein's- Expelled, a documentary. In fact I think former atheists make the best followers of God sometimes. God still loves you even if you don't believe in him. He also sent his son to die for you. Check out biblebelievers.com learntherbible.org

Me: I have watched Expelled and was unimpressed. It came off as whining that pseudo-science wasn’t being accepted on par with actual science. Have you seen Religulous or read Dawkins’ The God Delusion?

Krista - posted on 06/23/2010

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Why would that not make sense, Michelle? You're operating on the assumption that your god has always been around, right? That nobody created him, he just always WAS. So why is it such a stretch to imagine that the universe just always WAS, and that there was so much energy generated by the Big Bang that some microscopic bits of matter became infused with electricity and became "alive"? Personally, I think that when we look at the sheer scope of the universe, it's "crazy" to think that it was all planned and designed. Life forms happened, they developed, they evolved, they branched and evolved some more, and eventually, one branch became us. I think that it is staggering and amazing that such complex creatures arose out of that, but I certainly don't think it outside the realm of possibility. And I think it's a LOT more feasible than to think that some invisible sky person created the whole thing, let it run for awhile, and then out of the ENTIRE universe of life forms, decided to involve himself with humans, tell them his rules for life, and oh yeah, let them kill his alleged kid as some sort of way of erasing their own sins.



I don't mean to trash religion, but I just want you to understand that what seems perfectly crazy to you seems perfectly logical to us. And what seems perfectly logical to you, really DOES seem like a made-up fairy story to us.

Michelle - posted on 06/23/2010

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This is my opinion. I have heard both sides and read lots of different things on the subject. In my opinion it's crazy to think there is no God. To think that life just happened? Seriously does that really make sense. To think that this world and all the life in it had no purpose or design. They have probably been more atheists that changed their mind about creation than Christians that changed to atheists. I know of many. Also there are so many things that we still don't even understand. The human body is so very complex that we are still learning. Do you really think all that just happened by accident? I certainly do not claim to know everything, but I get get tired of non-believers treating us like we are just putting our faith in fairy tales. Like we are children who will believe anything. If you will do your research you will find there are so much more pointing to creationism than Darwinism. I think there is a reason that there is no concrete proof that there is a God. He wants us to believe with our hearts and our souls, not our brains. Not to say he wants us to be stupid or uneducated. But there is a time for faith and a time for analytical. Watch Ben Stein's- Expelled, a documentary. In fact I think former atheists make the best followers of God sometimes. God still loves you even if you don't believe in him. He also sent his son to die for you. Check out biblebelievers.com learntherbible.org

*Lisa* - posted on 06/21/2010

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No I don't feel personally attacked at all! Thanks for saying that though Gillian. And that story you mentioned also made and makes me angry!
To be honest, there have been many times where I have read the Old Testament and flared up in anger (I have also read cover to cover in different translations, but only in English hehe I think it would help if I could read the original text). Those stories that you mentioned Jen get me just as angry as you. And I run off to find the meaning of it, or some kind of explanation for why those kinds of things happened.
Sometimes, I still don't understand. Like right now! But when I think about how God intended the world to be, back before sin, it makes me feel a bit better. It wasn't meant to be this way. Man and woman were created as equals to enjoy each other's company and company with God. Then the world turned so psychotic with the introduction of sin, and then disease etc etc. God himself was so sick of the way people were treating each other so sent the flood etc. I think that God was not the instigator of all of the children killing, but it was just something that happened in those times as sad as it is. The Egyptians also wiped out Moses' generation under Pharoah's instruction. And later on Herod orders all the boys to be murdered trying to kill Jesus. So Moses getting angry and saying 'they all should be killed' I think is a sign of the times. That's why I thank GOD for the New Testament. It's so full of grace, freedom for women (there are women leading the church in the New Testament). God did not intend women to be so terribly dealt with, but man did that. He intended women to be equal with their partners, to enjoy life just as much as man, not to be used and abused. There are many stories in the NEw Testament where Jesus saves women from being ridiculed and even murdered because of the way the men have grown to treat them. He even has an in depth conversation with a woman who was ostracized from her community because of her many marriages and infidelities. He offers her the same grace that he offers anyone. For those reasons, the murder and war of the Old Testament seem to fade in my mind when I see how God really intends women to be treated.
Hope that makes sense!

Lady - posted on 06/21/2010

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I can quite honestly say I have never read anything but childrens bible stories - but my husband has read many passages in the bible and told me all about a lot of the scarier ones - i don't think either of us could name the passages but the story you mentioned does sound a little familiar.

Lisa I really like you as a person so I hope you're not taking this as an attack on you - but I just don't get some of the total disrespect and disrigard that is shown to a lot of women in the bible and yet it's still preached today!!

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And Gillian, have you ever read the tale of the Levite's concubine? Judges 19:20-30. Truly a repellent story of what a righteous man did to his concubine.

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Lisa, I don't know about you but if I was a young girl (and the ages of these girls based upon average life expectancy and the common age of marriage would probably be 12-15) who had just seen her entire family slaughtered. (Their mothers murdered, their little brothers murdered, their fathers murdered, their brothers and sisters in their cradles murdered) I am not real happy to marry their murderer. If a man had broken into your home, slaughtered your entire family and then said he was going to 'marry' you - would you entire that union joyfully? Would you welcome that man into your bed and your body joyfully?

Let's not however gloss over the fact that Moses ordered the murder of a generation of terrified little boys.

For those who aren't familiar with the story - here it is in a nutshell. The Midianites had their own city and apparently their women were hot and the wandering Israelites liked 'em a lot. They went and spun their dradles where they weren't supposed to if you know what I'm talking about. ;-) It seems they also took a hankering to the Midianite god of which there is very little detail in this particular story. Yahweh gets very annoyed by this, not the sex part itself but he has a very tender ego and doesn't like his followers checking out the hot legs of the next door neighbor's god. So what else is he to do? Naturally the answer is nothing less than genocide. Moses marshalls the Israelite army and they wipe out the city and kill every single man from the teenager to the oldest graybeard.

They did not however kill the children or the women. Moses is not happy about that. He then orders the army to kill all the children and the women who are not virgins. Heaven knows how they determined this. He then rewarded the holy army by giving the virgin women to the troops. No translation says that they were married to the troops. I just hit up www.biblegateway.com which is an excellent resource btw and reviewed 10 different Bible translations. None suggest marriage.

After this lovely bit of the story, it goes on to tell how they divided up their loot.

What's interesting about this story however is the fact that it suggests that the Midianites were completely wiped out and their city destroyed. I mean total wipe out. Yet the Midianites magically appear to trouble the Israelites again in the book of Judges.

I am the atheist who read the bible cover to cover in multiple translations. I know of what I speak. ;-)

Lady - posted on 06/20/2010

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But there are stories in the bible where fathers have sent their wives and daughters out to be raped and beaten to protect the priest or visitor with in - sorry I don't know the passage numbers, my husband has just read them out to me - he might be able to find them again if you want but not until later - he's at work right now!

*Lisa* - posted on 06/20/2010

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In regards to Number 31:15-18, it doesn't say the girls were raped. It says they were to keep them, more likely for marriage than rape.

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Kristy- what you've described is Pascal's Wager. What you really should do is find the religion with the worst possible hell and go with that one just in case. Do you really think a person's faith is strong if she is only doing it out of abject fear of being wrong?

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AnneMarie, I'm curious - you said, "Over here we have had a lot of anti-Christian advertising, on buses, billboards etc. Paid for by the athiest society. "



I'm not aware of any atheist society but I am familiar with the American Humanist Association and their billboards. One of them was, 'Don't believe in God? You're not alone." People complained this was anti-Christian.



But perhaps I'm not asking the question the right way. Can you give an example of what these billboards actually said? I am very interested.

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God didn't "make" Jesus suffer, Jesus chose to die for us...... God didn't make sin. He made people & people chose to disobey & sin. That was our choice.

Tanya - posted on 06/16/2010

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@ Samantha If god is a god of perfect love then why make his son suffer such a horrible death? Why wouldn't he just forgive us if we are sorry? Also if he made everything than didn't he also make sin? He also made us capable of sin. So really who it at fault.

I believe the world is a great place. I am very happy with my life. :)

Krista - posted on 06/16/2010

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And Samantha, thanks for your concern. But to me, you being concerned about me not believing in God is about as logical as me being concerned because you don't believe in Zeus. I'm sure you're managing just fine despite not believing in Zeus.

And I'm doing just fine despite not believing in God.

Krista - posted on 06/16/2010

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Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.



Hey, me too! Want to form a club? We can build a clubhouse, and take up a collection, and exclude anybody who doesn't think the way we do...



Oh, s**t...

Jenny - posted on 06/16/2010

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I like the way you think Allison. My conclusion on god is the same. In a nutshell: our current evidence proves there is no god. Should other evidence turn up, it may prove otherwise and I would be the first to jump ship. That does not mean I "believe" there is no god. It means there is no evidence there is a god and it need not be any more complicated than that.

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