Is Pro-choice the same as Pro-abortion?

Jaime - posted on 09/14/2010

So I've been thinking a bit since my last comment and I have seen a few times, the mention of 'someone has to stand up for/protect the rights of the unborn'. So going along with this mentality, what kinds of protection are you offering the fetus, besides a free pass to humanity? Once the child is born, are you volunteering to be a foster parent to these unwanted children? Are you securing an adoption for the babies, so that these unborn that 'have rights', can live and thrive like the rest of humanity? I'm sure that there are one or two pro-life supporters (and even pro-choice supporters) that foster children...but it's never enough to house the thousands of unwanted children that are born into our world EVERY SINGLE DAY, with nothing but the genetic material that deemed them a 'life' and therefore entitled (according to a certain agenda) to the process of being a viable, human baby.

So, once all of these babies are born...what then? What sorts of legislation should be enacted to ensure that of all the unwanted babies born due to the overwhelming outcry of the pro-life movement, have the chance at life that the movement suggests is their given right as soon as the fertilized zygote creates a heart that brings it to life?

?? - posted on 09/14/2010

If a woman is raped or the victim of incest she is defending herself and could very well have the intent of defending the child from any and all of the possibilities of what can come from the product of a rape/incest situation.

If I had become pregnant when I was raped, I would never have had an abortion. I couldn't make that choice.

To some women, that I know very well, that was their choice. They could not allow a child to be born into this world with the possible guilt and pain that would come from the situation. She was not in ANY position to support, raise, care for, nurture and give the proper and sufficient emotional attention that child would need to deal with the situation - because she couldn't even handle it herself.

She was acting in the defense of herself AND the baby by choosing to disallow the fetus to continue to grow inside of her. She saved herself. Her intention was not to kill anything, it was the complete opposite.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jenny, I know, I have read it. I do get what you are saying, I really do. But aaaggh! Im trying ot find the words to explain what you are not understanding from me.....I don't think ever that abortion should be an option, but I do know that we all have different opinions. I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree with your opinon. Im just trying not to be disrespectful about it. I am listening but not changing my mind....I dont know any other way to expalin Jenny. SO call me whatever you want.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Even if a person truely believes that abortion is their only option. They are still aborting a babe and they go in knowing this. Self defense you dont go in knowing you are going to kill someone. That is the difference between why I find Abortion to be Murder, And self defense not so much.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

"I dont think so. Im not AGREEING with your opinion, just respecting that you have one. It's not the same as mine."

Starr, if you read back through this thread you will see many pro-choice women make that same statement. They do not neccesarily agree with the outcome, they agree they have no say in what the outcome happens to be.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jo, but she still knows she is killing or aborting the babe. However you want to look at it. Self defense you dont know that you are going to kill someone. You are just trying to protect yourself. Self defense can end in protection of yourself and THE OTHER PERSON. Abortion can NEVER end in protecting the babe. Just PROTECETING YOURSELF!

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

" I don't go any further to include the 'rights' of the fetus because a fetus is not deemed viable, until it is born alive and able to be issued a birth certificate. As much as people might disagree, that is my reasoning for supporting a woman's choice to either be pregnant or abort no matter the reason"

But I do believe a fetus is LIFE.

?? - posted on 09/14/2010

Not necessarily. She could be having an abortion with the intent of saving her own life; physically, emotionally, financially or all of the above.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jenny, if you have in ANY of my post got the idea that I am pro-choice then so be it. Im not. I don't think under any ccircumstances should a woman have an abortion, wich I have stated over an over. But because I can respect that someone has an opinon on being pro-choice makes me pro-choice? I dont think so. Im not AGREEING with your opinion, just respecting that you have one. It's not the same as mine.

Jaime - posted on 09/14/2010

Yes, exactly Jenny. That is what I keep saying all along. Being pro-choice is simple (in terms) for me because it's about supporting choice (in this case about abortion). The choice of the woman carrying the fetus, to have control of her own body and the decision as to whether or not she wants to remain pregnant or abort. I don't go any further to include the 'rights' of the fetus because a fetus is not deemed viable, until it is born alive and able to be issued a birth certificate. As much as people might disagree, that is my reasoning for supporting a woman's choice to either be pregnant or abort no matter the reason. It's about choice over her own body...not choice to end a life. Her choice comes first because SHE is the viable, living, existing human being.



Add to that: Also, it is HER body caring for the fetus, so she has to have control of it.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

I would say that self defense is not murder. You are still killing someone but not with the intent to. You go into having the abortion with the intent to kill the babe.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

Oh, well you are pro-choice, great =)

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jenny, thats pretty much what I just said. I can still respect your opinion and keep mine as well. It's not discarding it.

?? - posted on 09/14/2010

Out of curiosity, Starr, if abortion is murder, is self-defense murder?

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

Not wanting to allow her a choice to what inhabits her body IS discarding her opinion though. It's one of the strongest opinions a woman can have about her body. Be pro-life all you want but at the end of the day you don't get to force ME to believe the way that you do. That's what being pro-choice is all about.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jamie, IMO abortion is murder. So how is one murder any different form the next? This is how it is relevent. You don't even have to answer. I know that this debate can never really end with us agreeing. This is where a big difference in pro-choicers and pro-lifers comes. Im not discarding your opinon. It just doesn't match mine. thats where debating comes in hand.

Jaime - posted on 09/14/2010

I am pro-choice because I support a person's choice to have control of their own person. Does that clear it up? I don't condone murder, but if a person wants to be euthanized due to poor quality of life or what have you...then that is their choice to make. If a person wants a sex change, that is their choice to make. If my son wants a circumcision that is HIS choice to make. If a woman wants to have a baby that is HER choice to make. If a person wants to get stupid drunk or strung out on drugs that is their choice to make. I have no right to tell another person what to do with their body. So when I say that I'm pro-choice that is what I mean!



None of this supporting the child molester's choice or the crazy cat lady's choice or the murderer's choice...these examples are so incredibly pointless to this entire discussion!



As for being fully pro-choice regardless of the reason...it's for the very reason that I mentioned above. At no time do I feel that I have the right to tell another person what they can and cannot do with their own body. I realize that a viable fetus might be the casualty to that choice, but I just simply feel that it is not my place to dictate the decisions of others about their physical/mental/emotional person as it pertains to their PERSONAL life experiences.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

I agree with both of you ladies. I don't use pro-abortion because I don't think it is appropriate. I don't need to be spiteful or hurtful when trying to get my opinion across. If I needed to then it's probably a crappy opinion anyways =)

?? - posted on 09/14/2010

I agree with you on that note for sure. Words can be spit in your face under the best of circumstances.

My issue is when someone claims to want to educate and inform, but has no respect or tact in the way they address and present themselves.

You don't necessarily see the term "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" on a regular basis, by people who truly want to debate or discuss in an intelligent and respectful manner. Simply because the terms are, for one, not even correct terminology, and two, they are too easily mistaken as cruel or hurtful.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

Pro-abortion is derogatory. It is used to offend and tells the other conversation participants that you are entering with a closed mind and, quite frankly, shitty attitude. Pro-abortion says you don't care if it doesn't make sense but you must pick a descriptor that offends to get your point across. Pro-abortion makes people assume the user is an extremist. It is just not productive to civil discourse.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

"Grasping at anything to 'make a point' that really is pointless. I DO understand what you are saying, Starr, but I think it's a moot point"
Yes, you are probably right. But in the same way who cares if pro-choice means pro-abortion or if pro-life means anti-abortion. No matter what term is used someone can find a way to make it hurtful or cruel. As long as we make our own minds up on what ever the matter at hand is thats all that really matters.

?? - posted on 09/14/2010

Starr said: SO the man who chose to molest a 6 yr.old girl is supported because she chose to do it. Or the 17 yr.old who mrudered and 80 yr.old grandmother is supported because he chose to do it. The 40 yr.old lady who starved 60 cats and dispersed them in her yard is supported because she CHOSE to do it.


The ENTIRE base of being "pro-choice" isn't about choosing anything you want EVER. And supporting everyone's "right" to make any choice they ever make. It's having the choice over YOUR OWN BODY. Your Body. And it's not about taking away the rights of another being that is alive and kicking.

[It is believed] a fetus is not a viable life until a certain period of gestation, it doesn't have rights to be taken away, yet. **SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF**; I only support the option of abortion before the gestation period in which a child can survive outside of the womb. (And I really only support the decision under circumstances.) Therefore, making it ONLY having a CHOICE over ONE'S OWN BODY. When a baby can survive outside of the womb, then that woman is TAKING AWAY THE RIGHT that baby has to a chance to survive, with medical intervention.


To liken the pro-choice stance within the abortion topic, with pro-choice in every other topic is really irrelevant and pointless. Grasping at anything to 'make a point' that really is pointless. I DO understand what you are saying, Starr, but I think it's a moot point.

PS: the caps aren't for yelling, just emphasizing :p and I'm not upset or jumpy or whatever and I'm not meaning to come off as cranky lol

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Well HELLLLOOO Anika. I dont think that I went off topic. Im going on the numerous posts that debated pro-choice was supporting the right to choose. So fine let me give you another one. SO if you are pro-choice then...a women who is 40 weeks pregnant CHOOSES to pound her stomach hard enough fist after fist until she kills her baby. She CHOSE to do this. Well, isnt this one way of abortion? And it has to do with the right of what the woman wants to do with her own body. So you support this because it is her choice and her body and she chose to do it.

Anika - posted on 09/14/2010

Starr, we are talking about a woman's choice over what happens with HER body. We're not talking about every choice she ever made about every issue. You're going way off base. All your examples involve other people so they are incorrect comparisons. And before you say, "Well, a fetus is a person too." that is your opinion. It is not mine. I mean, if you believe life begins at conception, why do you believe it only starts then? What about eggs and sperm? They're just cells too. Why can't they have equal rights? Why are they not 'alive' in your thinking? Why are you not self flagellating every month for letting a poor defenseless egg die? Why are you not living up to your fecundity by ensuring every egg released from your ovaries is fertilised?

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

"I suppose that's the problem with labels. We rarely stay under the ones that are supposed to "represent" us. For the sake of discussion we can say what we believe. When it really comes down to it though I'm pretty sure we all are situational decision makers."

Well said Jenny. I just wanted to get my opinion heard. And please know that I do respect others opinons as well. And you are right, I am very glad that I have not been put in a situation for my views on abortion to be tested. Who knows while Im over hear screaming I am pro-life..well,never say never right.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

I jsut wanted to share this. I am telling my husband about our conversation. And he tells me...that he is pro-choice and that I TOO am pro-choice. Funny, because I thought I was pro-life. LOL! so he said he doesnt mind being called pro-abortion because he feels it is the same thing. WOW, I guess wee never had this convo before...

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

I suppose that's the problem with labels. We rarely stay under the ones that are supposed to "represent" us. For the sake of discussion we can say what we believe. When it really comes down to it though I'm pretty sure we all are situational decision makers. If we haven't been there we just don't know. If we have been there we don't know what's it like for someone else to be there too.

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

That's why I like the COM scale.....it was a very interesting exercise, and made me realise what a wide variety of views we have here, and how far we are prepared to take our personal views on the issue.

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

"Do you know that here in my home state it is not even legal to charge a person who kills a pregnant woman with two murders?"

It's the same here. They are trying to change the legislation with respect to that. I think that is wrong. I wouldn't, however, because of my views, call it murder if it were a 5 week fetus that was miscarried.

Thanks Starr :) You did get me thinking.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Well I think Teresa is too but not everyone did. I saw numerous posts that said " well you can't be 100% pro-life if there are circumstances when you think a woman should have an abortion"

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Well Jodi...apparently we are only talking about abortion and I am only 100% pro-life in abortion..just saying!

But no I dont agree with the death penalty and yes I do agree that someone should get charged for murder if they can 100% infact prove that the miscarriage was due to the wreck. Do you know that here in my home state it is not even legal to charge a person who kills a pregnant woman with two murders? SO if I am pregnant and someone were to kill me they dont even take into account my unborn. Even if I was 42 weeks prego. Someone has to stand up for the rights of the unborn.

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

No, I actually believe Teresa is totally pro-life, because she only moved on her view of having an abortion IF it were the situation where the mother would most certainly die (in which case the baby would also probably die), and thus that was a pro-life stance. In my opinion, anyway, her reasoning for allowing the choice is a pro-life one. I have a lot of respect for that view.



Now I'm confusing myself, LOL.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

LOL Jodi, Ponder ...please do. I'm just trying to get a point across. pro-choice and pro-abortion(when talking about abortion) are the same. And those ladies on here who told people like Teresa that she is not just pro-life because their are reasons when she finds abortion to be ok then they are contridicting themselves.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

Thank you for bringing it back to topic.



I am saying the choice remains between a woman and her doctor period. I would never presume that I have any say on what you do with your uterus and I do not accept anybody trying to have an opinion on mine.

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

I can also see what Jenny is saying. So by saying these things, Starr, are you also against the death penalty, are you against "self-defence" as a reason for having killed another person, do you believe someone should be charged with murder if a woman has a 5 week miscarriage following a car accident? I am sure there are a million more examples. And yeah, we're probably treading on dodgy road here, but I am just curious if you are also pro-life in ALL situations. Or do you have grey areas too?

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

But it all has CHOICE in it. and we are talking about pro-CHOICE.
It's like you are saying(Im not trying to put words in your mouth) Well you are only somewhat pro choice. Only pro-choice if the choice is IN YOUR EYES unacceptable. SO IN YOUR EYES mureder is unacceptable(mine too) and IN MY EYES abortion is unacceptable. SO some of you are telling me that I can't be pro-life and think it's ok to have an abortion if i'm going to die. But IT"S OK to be pro-choice even if you arent accepting all reasons and rights of people to choose.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

And again, if pro-life means choosing life in all scenarios then pro-abortion means choosing abortion in ALL scenarios which is a lame arguement. NOBODY is pro-abortion.

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

LOL Starr, I'm pondering on this one to throw another scenario back at you, but I do understand what you are trying to say.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

If you notice, the pro life scenarios actually include abortion IN the scenario. By all means provide us with pro-choice abortion scenarios but when you get into drug dealing and murder it is blatantly OFF topic.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

JODI!!!!!!!! You see my friend you don't have to agree with my views. BUT, that is exactly what I am trying to say. Thank you!!

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Again"Is Pro-choice the same as Pro-abortion?"

Yes it is the same. Because obviously as Jenny is stating " We are specifically talking about abortion"
So you are supporting the women making the choice to have an abortion. Doesn't matter if it sounds mean, cruel, or hurtful. It's the same thing!

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

Jenny, I think she has a point. She is trying to show that those claiming to be pro-choice ARE actually pro-abortion (in her opinion) because they don't support ALL choices humans make, only those in relation to abortion.



Again, I don't agree, but it has me thinking.....

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Jenny I am sticking to the topic. many people asked me scenerios on me being pro-life..." Starr would you make your 12 yr.old have an abotion if she were raped" "Starr, what if the girl was 5" So why can I not ask about being Pro-Choice? DO I not have the RIGHT to voice my opinion and ask questions like everyone else? Or is it because you do not agree with my opinion? I don't agree with yours so I debate it. I thought thats what we do?!

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

OFF TOPIC!

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Sherri, wether you find it to be a parasite or not still doesnt effect the fact that you are claiming to be pro-choice. And pro-choice is supporting a choice! SO you support the rights for people to make choices. Fine, here is another one. So you are pro-choice you support the drug dealer making the choice to see your 10yr.old heroin wich inturn puts him in a coma form the od. He isn't dead, just in a coma. But thats ok becuase the drug dealer made that choice.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

Starr, you're not making any sense. We are specifically talking about abortion and (almost) every woman in this conversation is speaking on that level alone. So let's stick to topic shall we?

Jodi - posted on 09/14/2010

"Until that fetus is born it is not considered a living human being."



But that's the point of why Starr sees it the way she does. She believes that a fetus IS a living human being. You believe it isn't until it is born. Me, I believe it is not a viable human being until such time as it can live outside its mother's body (so probably around 24 weeks), whether or not it is actually born at that time. These beliefs are why we all have differing views on the COM scale that Krista proposed.



So while I don't agree with Starr's reasoning here, I can see why she has this view.

Starr - posted on 09/14/2010

Oh Jenny, But I know I am reading "pro-choice is supporting the right for a woman to have a choice." When did we put stipulations on what a choice is? Or so then it goes back to the original question of this thread:"Is Pro-choice the same as Pro-abortion?"
So if you are only pro-choice on abortion and not "all choices" then that makes a pro-choicer a pro-abortioner!

Sherri - posted on 09/14/2010

Starr a fetus isn't a living breathing thing. It is a parasite that lives off of you for almost 10mo's.

Jenny - posted on 09/14/2010

I would be even more staunchly pro-choice if it was illegal (if it was possible) as I would have further rights to fight for.