Taking God out of the Courtroom, and our schools
MOST HELPFUL POSTS
Mary Renee - posted on 01/04/2011
Because of the First Ammendment of the Constitution... which outlines the separation of church and state!
God and Religion has no place in our schools and courtrooms. The country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution in their home countries. They wanted to find a place where people were free to practice their religions.
You are totally free to practice whatever religion you'd like in your home, in your church, in your temple, in your mosque, at your parent's house, at your friend's house.
But YOUR personal beliefs shouldn't be shoved down MY throat or anyone elses. Especially not the throat's of impressionable children while they attend public school paid for by the American people's tax dollars some of whom are christian, catholic, jewish, muslim, wiccan, atheist, agnostic, humanist, and a variety of other beliefs. They probably prefer to share their own beliefs with their children, rather than someone elses.
If you want God in your school send your children to the private school of your chosing.
Johnny - posted on 01/11/2011
Although I may be incorrect, the moment that anyone uses the term minions, I am instantly aware of their self-perceived superiority. You may claim detachment, and I am sure that you have attempted to remove yourself from the multitudinous hordes, but it offers you a sense of being exceptional where all others are simply normal. I find that for your average nihilist, which I have unfortunately met more than a few, that sense of being special and profound is what keeps them from simply committing suicide. There is no meaning but one's own ego.
I may fundamentally disagree with the philosophical outlook of the religionists in this thread and elsewhere, but I refuse to accept meaninglessness. We are simply too small to understand our own existence. Choosing to pretend that we remain apart from that in which we are inextricably linked, is a foolhardy endeavor of child-like minds. It demonstrates a belief system that still requires faith, although like atheists, its subscribers continue to deny it.
"reality is that which doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it." ~ philip k. dick
Krista - posted on 01/06/2011
Wendy, I'm an atheist as well, and I have to say, you are NOT helping the cause by being so insulting.
Yes, there are indeed religious people out there who use their faith as a way to avoid responsibility. However, people like that would use ANYTHING as a way to avoid responsibility.
I am no fan of organized religion, believe me. However, I think that the majority of religious people are nice, normal people who are not "weak". They simply see the world a different way than we do. And as long as their faith brings them happiness, and they are content to let other people have their own beliefs, then what is the problem?
Pamela - posted on 01/05/2011
Nah, you really can't insult me over my faith. I'm totally okay with people disagreeing...in fact, I expect it. So my recommendation for those of us who do believe in God is not to get insulted - we don't need to defend anything.
Regarding the separation of state and church, I completely agree with keeping it separate. It is not the government's job to promote Christianity (or any other religion). The public sphere should remain something of a neutral space, so everyone can be involved regardless of their beliefs. It is not the school's job to educate my kids on religion - that is solely my (and my spouse's) job.
It is important that we all (religious or otherwise) remain respectful of one another.
Isobel - posted on 01/04/2011
if you were about to walk into a court room that had a Muslim symbols on it, would you feel confident that YOU were about to be fairly treated? I wouldn't...and the same goes for Christian symbols.
and would you think it was fair that because your child's classroom had a large number of Muslim children in it that the teacher should lead them in prayer 5 times a day? I wouldn't, but then I don't want my children led in prayer by anybody (unless I TAKE them to church) which is where God belongs.
Melissa - posted on 01/13/2011
Well we celebrate Christmas in school, Easter, St.Patties Day and this is as far as it should go by force. They have special schools for religion, and they're very good ones I've heard. When it comes to law, there is no God I know of who would be allowed by my standards to forgive or judge better than I or a jury a criminal like a child molester or murderer.
yes, OVER-indulgence. not indulging in general.When we indulge, we allow ourselves to enjoy the pleasure of the flavor in food. Every time we eat we indulge. I dont know too many people who eat things they don't enjoy the flavor of. We indulge in anything we enjoy.
Meghan - posted on 01/11/2011
Isn't Nietzsche's main belief that modern science and secularization of European society influenced "the death of God" and that would lead to the fall of man??? I also believe his intent was perspectivism (the philosophical view that all perception always takes place from a specific perspective,) where as nihilistic view is "believing that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated." I haven't really studied too much about nihilism but from what I know, it is an extreme form of Nietzsche's position....just as people took Marx's communist manifesto and RUINED it.
But fun fact about Nietzsche....he had a mental breakdown and died. (It is in debate as to whether he had syphilis, manic-depressive illness with periodic psychosis, dementia or Cadasil)....so yeah, just throwing that out there
Jaime - posted on 01/11/2011
So Wendy, if you're a self-professed nihilist...how is it that you can be so accepting of your 'taken in hand' marriage arrangement? Doesn't that require you to lend some conformity to the authority of your husband? From what I have read it does. And I remember a thread, perhaps in another community where you vehemently defended your marriage to everyone that thought it a bit odd. I'm just curious how you can pick and choose what constitutes conformity? I am truly puzzled.
Jo - posted on 01/11/2011
Pamela, your last paragraph made me think of a part of a book I adore - the autobiography of Emma Goldman called "Living My Life"
"At the dances I was one of the most untiring and gayest. One evening a cousin of Sasha, a young boy, took me aside. With a grave face, as if he were about to announce the death of a dear comrade, he whispered to me that it did not behoove an agitator to dance. Certainly not with such reckless abandon, anyway. It was undignified for one who was on the way to become a force in the anarchist movement. My frivolity would only hurt the Cause.
I grew furious at the impudent interference of the boy. I told him to mind his own business. I was tired of having the Cause constantly thrown into my face. I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from convention and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy. I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to become a nun and that the movement would not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things." Anarchism meant that to me, and I would live it in spite of the whole world — prisons, persecution, everything. Yes, even in spite of the condemnation of my own closest comrades I would live my beautiful ideal."
This section of her book also grew into a quote commonly
attributed to Goldman:
If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
Reading back on some posts - I will add another quote by the brilliant Emma Goldman:
"...it requires less mental effort to condemn than to think."
Pamela - posted on 01/11/2011
Wendy, you are correct. You certainly do have the freedom to not concern yourself with "the world, because being human doesn't mean I am part of any "bigger picture".
Unfortunately, there have been those who've attempted to disconnect from the greater story or deny their inclusion in it, but usually, the world has a nasty way of butting in.
It's a darker philosophy you hold to Wendy and one that ultimately points only to the hopelessness of existence.
We have the freedom not to chose that darker vibe.
I guess I'll hang with the contemptible minions because that is where Jesus hangs. Perhaps that makes me a fool but I'd rather be that kind of fool. Of course we're all fools of one type or another. Whose fool are you?
And the parade of life is not about winning or losing. Anton LaVey got it terribly wrong. It's about living to the fullest. We are made for what is good and we are made to share it with one another. Perhaps I can't change the world, but I can make my small piece of it a good place to be.
Peace out ladies.
Wendy - posted on 01/11/2011
Regarding the phenomenon of blind conformity, Nietzsche said it best:
"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."
Therapeutic Nihilism is not a new concept nor is Existential Nihilism. These philosophies exist because at any given point in the human time-clock, there will be a cluster of individualists who are terminally free. Carol, you are arguing under the notion that I see personal opposition in the church or in Liberalism. I don't align myself with anti-religious causes or any other causes for that matter solely because my existence isn't affected by what they oppose. My family and I share geography with the minions but we don't share political, social, "spiritual" or (within the next few years) financial connections to "the man". Our choices are not far-fetched. If you have the desire to make the world better then you have the freedom to try, just as you have the freedom to condemn those who aren't in agreement. I have the freedom to not concern myself with "the world" because being human doesn't mean I am part of any "bigger picture". I also don’t "illustrate superiority through contempt for others". Sure, I just as anyone have contempt and hate for those who cross me. It's just as relevant as giving love to those who are deserving of it. However, my contempt is not about elevating myself in anyone else’s eyes, or even my own. I would have to care about the opinions of others in order for that to be the case. It’s not that I don’t care out of self-aggrandized haughtiness. It’s that I don’t care out of sheer irrelevance. Indifference is a natural outcome to a healthy sense of apathy.
Another great quote that clarifies that concept is:
"What does it matter who win's in the parade of life, when the reviewing stand is filled with corpses?"-Anton LaVey
Sherri - posted on 01/11/2011
They teach them about all religions on a general scale and about each religions traditions but not really the religious aspect too much Toni. I know especially around the holidays they will have parents come in who celebrate Christmas and talk about that, bring in foods that are traditional and do games, crafts etc, They will then do the same for Hanukkah, Kwanza etc.
God is separate from the state because the USA is a multi-cultural place and has many religions, I am not so conceited to believe that my religion is the only one and should be the only one to be recognised, so which religion should be the 'right' one to be used in court-rooms etc, as everyone who believes in God believes the God they believe in to be the right one.
However, with that being said I don't think it is wrong to teach children about religion in schools, I'm not sure how it works in the States but in the UK many public schools have religious connections - we had Christian chaplins to come to the school for us weekly (and we wasn't in a religious school) and we also had weekly RE lessons where we learnt not only about Christianity but about several other religions. I feel this helps even those who do not believe because it builds up their knowledge about others beliefs and religions, which is the way to create openness and acceptance of everyone.
Jaime - posted on 01/11/2011
Nicely put, Carol. What you have said does make a lot of sense. It is man that has created the need for dependence on another, and perhaps if we were fully able to live independently of our own accord, we would not need to subscribe as 'sheep' to the social herd.
Johnny - posted on 01/10/2011
I think I get it now, it's not about adding to the discourse, it's about smashing it to pieces.
Which is funny to me, because that just seems to ignore the fact that if we don't care about others, they ain't gonna give a shit about us. One may choose to ignore the well-being of all of those outside their own family, but in reality, that is also ignoring one's own best interests too. If the universe and our world allowed us to be completely separate and removed from all that is going on around us, that might be a slightly intelligent choice. But the evidence is pretty clear that we need to all work together if we want things to get better. If we don't want things to get better, then by all means, pull up the drawbridge, throw boiling water down on the masses, illustrate one's superiority through contempt for others, and see how long it takes for the siege to lift.
This is really the first time that I have seen someone connect those choosing to try to improve the lives of others to the power structure that oppresses us. Politically, these connections can be drawn in many cases. But I've never before seen anyone suggesting that reaching out to help makes one a sheep worthy of contempt. That's really a new one. Probably the first time, because it doesn't really make all that much sense.
I do think that the "powers that be", the elites, love having people that choose to show their contempt and feelings of superiority over others by rejecting all that civil society offers. If the people questioning the authority are nasty to the common man, then the "common man" will never listen to those offering opposition. Fighting the herd does nothing to "fight the man". It just alienates. It's totally useless and just provides fodder for those in power to show those that aren't how dangerous and ridiculous opposing them really is.
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