The long-term effects of spanking.

[deleted account] ( 163 moms have responded )

This is one of the better articles I have read against spanking. Interesting to hear what the you Smart Chicks have to say about it.

Disciplining young children is what parents are supposed to do - most moms and dads have no trouble agreeing with that. But should the punishment include spanking?

As many parents can attest, few disciplinary measures stop a child from misbehaving as quickly as a swift smack or two on the bottom.

But in a new study published in Pediatrics, researchers at Tulane University provide the strongest evidence yet that children's short-term response to spanking may make them act out more in the long run. Of the nearly 2,500 youngsters in the study, those who were spanked more frequently at age 3 were much more likely to be aggressive by age 5.

The study, led by community-health-sciences professor Catherine Taylor, was the first to control for a host of issues affecting the mother, such as depression, alcohol and drug use, spousal abuse and even whether she considered abortion while pregnant with the child. After controlling for all these factors - each of which can contribute to a child's aggression - spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior. "The odds of a child being more aggressive at age 5 increased by 50% if he had been spanked more than twice in the month before the study began," says Taylor.

The association remained even after her team accounted for varying levels of natural aggression in children, suggesting, she says, that "it's not just that children who are more aggressive are more likely to be spanked."

Among mothers surveyed in 20 cities when their children were both 3 and 5 years old, nearly half (45.6%) reported not spanking their 3-year-olds in the previous month, 27.9% reported spanking once or twice that month, and 26.5% reported spanking more than twice. As 5-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the nonspanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

The reason for this may be that spanking sets up a loop of bad behavior. Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn't mean they get why they shouldn't have been acting up in the first place. What's more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents' problems.

"There is now some nice hard data that can back up clinicians when they share their caution with parents against using corporal punishment," says Dr. Jayne Singer, clinical director of the child and parent program at Children's Hospital Boston, who was not involved with the Tulane study.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) does not endorse spanking under any circumstance. It's a form of punishment that becomes less effective with repeated use, according to the AAP; it also makes discipline more difficult as the child outgrows it.

Instead of spanking, the AAP recommends time-outs, which typically involve denying the child any interaction, positive or negative, for a specified period of time. These quiet moments force children to calm down and think about their emotions rather than acting on them reflexively. After all, the goal of punishment is to get children to understand not just that they did something wrong but also what motivated them to do it.

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[deleted account]

I've always been anti-spanking. Here is my posting on another community (the thread was about spanking in public)

We made a conscious decision NOT to use corporal punishment on our children, for a range of reasons:

I was spanked as a child. So were my siblings. We weren't beaten (as in over the knee with a wooden spoon) though there were a few occasions. We grew up slightly frightened of our parents - not terrified or anything, but enough to make us wary of asking advise, or taking them into our confidence. My husband was not spanked, but he didn't want our children to have the uneasy parental relationship I and my siblings did;

I think physical punishment is humiliating for both the child and the adult administering it. It's an expression of the physical power the big person has over the little person;

The act of an adult actually raising his/her hand to a child is threatening and disturbing. There is no place in a serene home for this sort of violence;

In the short term you might achieve some results with spanking, but only in the short term. Instilling values in a child is a process, not an action. It's only by talking, repeating, emphasising and discussion that a child learns values and ideals.

I have read this article and similar about the long term effects of corporal punichment, and the arguments certainly make sense to me. Our decision not to use corporal punishment was based on our unwillingness to allow anything, such as fear of mum and dad, or that horrible use of physical power over someone less powerful than me. That would have diabolical effects on the family relationships, and everyone's sense of self, and not just the children.

Sally - posted on 08/15/2010

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Thanks Dana for the nice words. :)

Kati-
Here it goes. The case against praise is in a nutshell this. Kids become praise junkies, they refuse to do anything without it. They quickly get the attiude "whats in it for me?". The praise/reward has to get grander, bigger to get the desired behavior/action.
It also lessens the child desire to do something. Once they have reached the praise/reward level they quit trying.
One of Alfie main stances is to acknowledge the action without the praise. Example a three year brings you a picture they drew, instead a passing glance and a "oh good girl, that a beautiful picture." Say "oh you used a lot of colors, can you tell me about your picture?"
See the difference? One engages the child, one dismisses. The same goes for setting the table, instead of "Good Boy" or "Good Job", how about a "thank you for setting the table" or "it sure is easier when we all work togther to get dinner ready." The child then get the chance to feel internal pride.
When a child is excited about an acomplishment, it is ok to be excited with them but try and not be excited for them.
Case in point. my daughter (3&1/2) has been in swim lessons all summer. And she is doing amazing. Things a 3 year should not be doing. We are cheering with her. A lot of "wows. you did it" but very few good girls. "you swam so far today." "look how deep you went." If she comes up clapping for herself, we clap too. But we (really I) don't tell her she did a good job. Because the day before was not bad. Make sense??
Ok , I have to go back outside.

Sally - posted on 08/14/2010

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I want my child to have internal control Not be ruled by outside forces. I want her to grow up a responsible, respectful adult not because she is afraid but because it is the right way to be. Intrinsic rather than extrinsic.Make sense? I want her to do the right because it is right not because she has fear from an outside source.
I need to know she will make the right choices in life even when I am not there to catch her. We cannot always be there to watch them, to say Moms gonna get you if you???????. A threat of punishment will stop the behavior only while the threat exsist. Remove the threat, behavior returns. That is not teaching. That is controlling.

Sally - posted on 08/14/2010

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Hmmmm... What to write????
Ok I will start with this, a drug addicts kids can turn out fine, kids raised in foster care can turn out fine, kids living in homeless shelters can turn out fine. The odds are against them but some do come out ok. In spite of their circumstances, not because of them. So in spite of the spanking your kids are turning out fine, not because of it.
And the ever so over used "every kid is different", can't you do better than that? Every kid, no scratch that, every person deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Respect is not demanded it is earned. A spanking is belittling to the child. Demeaning. Designed not to teach but to control, dominate, win. Once you turn to force you lose any teaching opportunity. Lost.
A fact of life? I will be damned if I will ever teach my daughter that getting hit is a fact of life.

Jane - posted on 08/13/2010

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As an adult who was spanked as a child and slapped as a teenager, I can say that it did nothing more for me than make me more rebelious. I swore that I would NEVER lay a hand on my children (now 20 and almost 17) and would use the timeout techniques. When I did something wrong as a kid, I knew my mother was going to go the corporal punishment route (my dad never laid a hand on me) and I knew it was going to be painful but over and done with and I was on my merry way. There were no other repercussions so I did things again and again and just got more rebelious as time went by.

My kids, on the other hand did the whole timeout thing, groundings as they got older and they HATED it. We discussed the issue at hand, why they were being punished, why what they did was wrong and they rarely, if ever repeated their mistakes.

I am NOT a supporter of spanking, corporal punishment, whatever you want to call it. I think it teaches aggression. How do parents that spank justify to their children that hitting others is not acceptable but the parent does it to their own child. You can say that spanking and hitting are not the same thing but the definition of spank is: to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand and one of the many definitions of hit is: to strike a blow. Tell me how it's different? Well, you don't have to really...I'll never accept that it is different and I'll never accept that it's an acceptable practice for disciplining a child.

OK, beat me up...go ahead :)

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[deleted account]

Well, I do thank everyone for their responses. Some of you were very kind in your approach and explained why you use the method that best works for you and I really appreciate it. While others weren't so nice in their approach and thats fine. It just doesn't work if you are trying to get someone to move to your way of thinking. As I stated but just not in as long of detail as most of you (simply because I hate this small space you have to write in) I use redirection. I have moved everything that I don't want broken out of little fingers way. For the most part he can do as he wishes. Now for the dogs, I do take his hand and move it in a petting motion and say gentile because that hurts puppy and so on. I have raised a child before (my 13 year old niece) so this isn't my first go around with small children. My son has NEVER been spanked and I will reserve that for a time that is more appropriate along with age. Spanking is NOT something that is done on a daily basis but as a last and final resort. I don't want my child to fear a spanking but I have seen the results of both spanking a child and non spanking. I am the youngest of five and have been around many children. That is why if I deem that the outcome of him pulling the one particular dogs hair is going to lead to her taking a hunk out of his arm then yes I will tap his hand and say no, then show him how to pet the dog. Yes, I know this works, I have raised a child before. Well, Im sure you all get the point and don't want to read a novel! You all were great in your responses and not attacking!! I just loved it and if I hand't already been doing those things, believe me from your statements I would start. Good job I really now must get back to my duties as a stay at home mom..but crawling around is getting old (I have walking problems with one foot and the other had surgery) UGH!

Gina - posted on 08/18/2010

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Rita, Dana, Loureen and the other ladies answered your question for me.Do you really spank your 9 month old? Does she/he understand? My daughter is 12 years old now, I never spanked. When she was young like your baby I moved things out of her way leaving only safe things to satisfy her curiosity.. Well said Jamie, my 'not spanked' daughter is well behaved, respectful, caring with a great sense of humour[ though she's becoming a teenager, what fun!!! NOT!! lol. Just one thing Jamie, my girl is spoilt been an only child but she is disciplined, it's really hard but I've tried to find balance between the two. This may come across like I know it all, I don't . I learn as I go, and as I said she's almost a teenager and she lets me know when I'm wrong lol.

[deleted account]

Rita, my daughter is also 9 months and we too have a number of pets. Katie likes to go for their fur. She is a very tactile person. When she reaches for one of the animals, I place my hand over hers and say "gentle, gentle" and direct her hand to the animals shoulder. If she starts to grab, I gently remove her hand and say "stop. pulling his fur hurts Rory" (our dog). I try to refrain from saying "No" because this is not being specific and she has no idea what I could be referring too. If she continues, I move the animal or her away to something else and tell her "I'm moving you because you are hurting Rory and that makes me sad". 1. this tells her exactly why I have done it 2. it teaches her about feelings 3. its good for language development. I have never felt the need to smack her. She has no idea that she could cause pain to our pets. She has no idea that she can cause pain at all and this concept won't come to her for another 9 months or so. What use would smacking be then? If she gets into something that might break or hurt her, well then that's my fault for leaving it within reach. Why would I smack her for something that was my fault? She is a curious little person. I want to encourage that for that is the way she will learn about herself, the world and also how to learn itself. I don't want to discourage her by making her afraid to explore and investigate.
Try talking to your little one more and watch your behaviour for any unconscious hypocritcal actions which could contradict what you're saying. For example - if you are tidying up and throw a toy into the toy bin, your child is going to think "Oh, I can throw my toys around inside". He doesn't understand that you have better control over the force and direction of the toy.

[deleted account]

Rita, my son is 10 months old and from my experience redirection works really well at this age. I have moved everything that he can be hurt by (i.e. glass ornaments) because I am not always in the room to make sure he does not touch them (or bang - he loves banging) and have removed things that I do not want breaking (I have some beautiful wooden ducks) because you should not be angry at a baby of this age, they have limited understanding of their world and so do not realise that it is ok to bang certain things and not others (for example).

I am however still teaching him that lesson - When he touchs something that he shouldn't (i.e. daddy's play station) I say 'Ethan no touch' he then stops touching it and sits down on his bum, I then distract him with a toy - this works at the moment about 95% of the time because I have been repeatedly doing it since he began crawling (7 1/2 months). For climbing I say 'Ethan sit on your bottom' and he sits down the same goes for when he is crawling to mess with something I don't want him to 'Ethan sit on your bottom' and he does! We also show our son how to touch animals, we take his hand and say 'Ethan gentle' and then stroke the dog/ cat so eventually he will realise that he has to be gentle (at the moment he wants to eat and chase them lol).

Babies may have limited understanding but they do understand more than we often give them credit for and can understand several words by age 9-10 months. I focus on using my words because it is no more effective to use spanking on children. You say that spanking can be used effectively with explanation and understanding, HOW does spanking a 9 month old do this? HOW can a 9 month old understand why they are being spanked/ tapped on the hand? HOW are you teaching your son anything by doing this? WHAT does it achieve? Please can you explain your logic because I cannot see it.

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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I would add to my other post. Put things on the coffee table that are sturdy. Things your ok with breaking. Let him handle and learn. Things like coasters. Let him see them in use and let him play with them. A nice picture book. So on.....

Anything that has texture is great too. Again the touching is all about brain growth. The more they touch, the more the brain grows. That is how they learn. How they organize their environment. 40% of brain growth occurs by age 3. Everytime he touches something, think of that. Growing brain. Don't hold him back.

[deleted account]

So, Rita.....what is your argument for why you spank, other than "to each their own"? So you admittedly smacked your son's hand and told him no when he was touching things you didn't want him to touch or he wasn't listening.....did he ever go back and try again? You can't honestly tell me that after you smacked your son's hand, that the undesirable behaviour was "fixed"? How exactly does it work? I'm honestly trying to understand.

I'm sure you'd have guessed but I agree with Sally and Loureen and the other ladies that are trying to explain that while it might work in that moment, it's going to be ineffective long term and you ultimately WILL NOT achieve the outcome you are hoping for. Or perhaps it will if you're hoping that your son doesn't learn anything except to avoid certain behaviors for fear that mommy will hit him? I dunno, my thoughts are so scattered...it's late and I'm tired...I'll be back sometime tomorrow.

Charlie - posted on 08/17/2010

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children's hands are tools for exploring, an extension of the child's natural curiosity. Slapping them sends a powerful negative message.

A 9 month old is not developmentally ready for what you are trying to teach him .

I agree it is an important lesson to learn and one i am currently teaching my 21 month old , we removed anything we didnt want broken or touched and slowly started to reintroduce them into our home when our son was old enough to understand glass cups were one of the first to introduce , he broke a few and learned a lesson from it he now places his cups so gently down on the kitchen bench from that experience we are able to tell him "gentle hands " and he knows that the object is fragile like the glass and treats it equally as gentle as the cup .

Children learn a lot by exploring the environment through touch developing their sensory awareness , slapping hands decreases a childs ability to explore and develop properly in these areas , they become withdrawn from exploratory play , As an early childhood educator i have witnessed their lack of exploratory skills in school settings , it is highly visible to us who has freedom to explore and learn and those who are restrained from touching .

He is a baby it takes time and patience you cannot expect a baby to behave as an adult .

Johnny - posted on 08/17/2010

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I do not spank. I do not think that it always causes problems, but I think that it often does. I believe that spanking is not a discipline technique but a punishment. Those are NOT the same.

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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Please excuse any typos in last post. I am so tired and have a pounding headache. Off to bed soon. Sorry. I am not usually that jumbled up.

[deleted account]

I never said your way was wrong Dana and I asked a question earlier as to how someone else would handle the problems I was facing with my lil man to see if they had a better idea. Im here to debate, not to make everyone else feel good about their ways, you are set in yours and so is every one elses, so whats the problem? Oh thats right, I believe differently than most do. Ive stated why I would use spanking as a last resort. What more could you want from me Dana? To agree with you? Then what is the point of Debate?

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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So many things to say. Such a tired brain. Hmmmm.

Rita-

Move the stuff on the coffee table. You are creating drama where there need not be any. 9 months is not the time to teach him what you are trying to teach, Add the things that you don't want him to touch back to the coffee table when he is developmentally ready to understand they are yours. Not now. Now his brain is in conquer mood. The neurons are firing so fast, the desire to explore so strong, he can;t but help to touch. The more freedom he has now the better in the long run. Really, he needs to explore. He needs to grab things. He does not need to have his hand slapped. And remember this, he has no concept of a "forever no". To explain, he touched an outlet, you say and slap his hand. He sees you plug something in. He goes to touch outlet again. He has no idea the rules have not change for him as they did for you. Same goes for other things. He wants a treat/cookie whatever it means to you, you say no no not now. But then maybe after dinner or in the car you give him one. He has no concept of why it is ok now but not before. It takes a long time for "forever no's" to be understood. So give him a chance to develop. Cut hiim some slack.

[deleted account]

Then why are you here? We're trying to debate but you're not willing to even consider a different way. I don't understand you or your attitude, Rita?!! You're right! You can parent and discipline however you want BUT why come into a debate without an open mind? If you're already confident and set in your ways then why are you here?....."to each their own" is NOT an argument for why you choose to spank. "It works so I good with it" is not acceptable. AND.....why are you so closed off to just listening and doing a little research about what positive discipline actually is?

[deleted account]

The items on my coffee table are not that important. However, learning that there are certain things that he shouldn't touch is what I am going for. The things that may harm him. When I say no, I want him to stop and not continue. The dog usually just goes the other way when he comes near, however the other dogs let him pull their hair so he thinks it is ok with the one that doesn't like it. It again isn't the things he is touching that bother me, but that he learns to mind me. It works so I good with it.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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Some people are confusing lack of discipline with non-spanking parents. THAT is a serious misconception. There are plenty of non-spanking parents that raise wonderfully-behaved children. The children you see that lack respect and are selfish are children that have been indulged and have little understanding of what discipline is as a result of it not being taught to them. This goes for the plenty of children that are spanked and end up being aggressive or violent. If it hasn't already jumped out at you DISCIPLINE is the key...effective discipline is even more so!

Lacey - posted on 08/17/2010

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I see alot more disrespect coming from children that have been raised in the "no spanking" time...and alot more selfishness. However, I won't tell you how to discipline your child, and you won't tell me how to discipline mine. (And no, this doesn't mean I am a mean mother LoL)

Charlie - posted on 08/17/2010

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Communication , repetition , routine , consistency .

Are the things on the coffee table necessary ? do they need to be in arms reach , our son also loved to pull the dogs hair we just had to keep vigilant and make sure the dog wasnt near him , we basically had to train the dog to stay away from him which is great with our new baby because he knows the baby is little and he isnt aloud near , now that our oldest is older he and the dog are best friends !
Bottle i personally wouldnt worry about yet but you could go with him and pick a special sippy cup and only let him have it at certain times that you allow .

Communication isnt a quick fix solution its takes time and patience .

Its worked great for my oldest son he is very respectful and empathetic and has such a wonderful vocabulary from communicating .

[deleted account]

I usually redirect his attention and tell him no several times. If that doesn't work I tap him on the hand and tell him no. That together with no usually works.

[deleted account]

I wanna see the next page and it won't let me....I'm beginning to HATE these stupid new changes. ARG!

[deleted account]

Rita, I'm curious.....how do you discipline your 9 month old? Do you spank him when he touches something you don't want him to touch or when he won't listen? I'm confused and I don't want to jump to conclusions.

[deleted account]

Gina, just curious..how do you talk to a 9 month old and make them understand? Do you take away their bottle since at that age is all that brings them satisfaction or do you just let them pull the dogs hair and let the dog bite them as a lesson? I ask because that is how old my boy is right now and that is the main thing he gets in trouble for. Well that and touching things on the coffee table.

Gina - posted on 08/17/2010

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OK I have followed this post and want to add my thoughts,I agree with whats been said about new ways to discipline our kids.Maybe years ago parents were told that spanking was the right way, but new studies have said other wise.Seriously if some studies tell me 'spank your kid it works' that study would be in the bin !!!!!!! We know more about how kids brains work and how they learn now and most say spanking is not the best way to discipline your kids.When my daughter acts out I have never spanked her, I discipline her by time outs, by taking away the TV or grounding her, she is more upset when she does something wrong that I will be disappointed in her behaviour, spanking her will not teach her anything that a good talking to couldn't.As for what Julianne said about making your kids fear you, Are you kidding??? I do understand what you are saying but that kind of thinking is very old,I get that responds out of respect not fear, I'm raising my kid to be strong respectful and to have NO fear, I think fear sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMO it could be just as bad as spanking, and for the people who say they don't spank in anger ..Really you calm down then spank? how the hell does that work? and does the kid remember what they did?? Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PBS is great,Dana.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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Thanks for that tip Sally...I do have an extra mouse that I can give him to play with...I'll see if that works for him.

Kati, I've heard good things about 123 Magic...glad to see it's working well for you and your kids.

Rosie - posted on 08/17/2010

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you know it's kinda weird i have spanked because when i was 2 and under my bio dad beat the shit out of me my sister and my mother. i only remember bits (people say i couldn't possibly remember, but i do, trust me). after that my mother and step father raised me and never laid a hand on me, and never really needed to (i was an angel you see, lol). i've always been terribly afraid that i will continue the cycle of abuse even though it happened so young for me. i think i found out that i DO spank in anger most of the time, so spanking is just making me feel like an awful person. i recently bought the book 123 magic by thomas phelan, and started using some of the strategies in there. at first is was like magic, then they started to rebell against it, and i think i'm going to lose my mind!! today i finally have been seeing some progress, but you are totally right, it is so much harder to control yourself when practicing different strategies. i don't know how my mother did it so well. she made everything seem like it was just soooooo easy-she still does. gah!!

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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Loureen-
Thank you so much for the link you provided on Reggio Emila. You don't know how timely that was. My daughter is starting Montessori preschool in the Fall. Her school just did a huge expansion and remodel. They have added what they call a Reggio Emila Art Studio. While I am very familar with Montessori and had looked into Waldorf, I have no knowledge of Reggio Emila. So excited to learn more. Thank you. Do you think Montessori and Reggio are compatible?

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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Jaime-
My daughter did the same thing in regards to our desk. My husband took an old corded mouse cut the cord off and left it on the desk next to ours. She got to click away and have something just like ours and she stopped being so grabby. Just a thought. :)

[deleted account]

I just go with to each their own. What works for me may not work for you. It doesn't mean Im right and your wrong, it means we are different. My son will grow up in a loving home with a few swats here and there when we see fit. Its really not a big deal and it works for us. Apparently it has worked for thousands of years too for other parents. Im pretty much done here and have enjoyed the information. I may stick around for a while, Im sure I have very different opinions on other hot topics too LOL.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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I get what you're saying Kati...but keep in mind that spanking is illegal in some countries, so for them it IS akin to abuse. It's legal in Canada between the ages of 2 and 12 but I have friends that have spanked their infants, smacked their hands and such and I just don't understand how they feel it's necessary that young. And that's really my point...if there is an age restriction at that young, then positive behaviour strategies have to be implemented anyway...so why not focus on the positive strategies and forgo the negative? Proper discipline is two-fold. Parents have to be just as disciplined as kids.



I am not of the mind to approach a person that spanks their child and tell them they are wrong and abusive and such. I do believe it's an abuse of power and just not necessary.



Just so you might understand my struggle with spanking...I was spanked, swatted, cuffed, belted ad nauseum and that's how I learned to discipline my siblings when I babysat them. Oddly enough I never spanked any kids that I babysat...but trust me, my willpower to refrain from spanking didn't stop me from seriously considering it every single time they did something utterly frustrating. Lately my son keeps climbing up to my desk and getting at the pens, mouse, important papers and such and I just can't get him to stop climbing the desk. He's been redirected, he's been told firmly "no, not for you", he has plenty of things he can climb in the house (couch, coffee table, t.v. stand that is being used for his toys)...I promise he's got lots of options and yet, he is adamant about getting at the things on my desk. A few times now I've seen red and just wanted so badly to spank him and be done with it...but after two days now I can see that he is catching on with positive strategies...so to me, the consistency is worth it, even though I know a spanking would fix it quickly.

Rosie - posted on 08/17/2010

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and i actually am starting to come around to the same way of thinking jamie! :) i don't think it's very productive to spank, but that's MY child, my situation, and knowing myself and what i can and cannot handle i am choosing that thought process. other people are different, and see things differently. their children are different and may or may not respond to different types of disipline differently. i just wish more people would have an open mind that SOMETIMES it is a good tool to use for that particular family. :)

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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I'm not disregarding the idea that there is a proper way to spank, I'm disagreeing with it. I have stated my reasons...as per a debate. I don't think spanking is necessary. I also don't claim that spanking is abusive in the sense that parents are beating their children. I do feel that spanking is an abuse of power because parents expect their kids to behave and control their actions, and yet their method of reprimand is to spank. The very act of spanking is reactive and harsh. A spanking is not meant to be a light tap on the bottom...why bother spanking if it will have no effect at all? That's precisely my point. Spanking is done to "get the point across"...it's not a gentle motion and it's also not a necessary one in my opinion. It's that simple for me.

Rosie - posted on 08/17/2010

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so why disregard the study rita posted? it's because we all have an idea of how WE want to raise our OWN children. we disregard information that doesn't meet our criteria for parenting. you all are very avid nonspankers, me i dont' necessarily think that spanking is beneficial, but i definitely don't think it detriminetal, others may think it's detrimental NOT to spank (i personally think that's crazy, but meh), and others feel it's a useful part of their arsenal of disipline. the point is that everybody can bring up studies, but we all go by what our life experiences are, and by what we have been taught throughout our lives. i think spankers are tired of non spankers thinking that they only spank and yell and that's it. i admit that's what it was for me, i figure i can't do it without showing my anger, i don't want to do that. other people are perfectly capable of redirecting a child, then the behavior starts again, you warn them with a timeout, they do it again-timeout. so then you tell them if they do it again, spanking. SOMETIMES, not all the time because the timeout USUALLY works, the spanking is given, explained, it's not an anger thing at all. that needs to be acknowledged. and you all refuse to do that and make it seem like people who spank are child abusers whether it's said or not it's implied. i think that's what the big debate really is here.

[deleted account]

There's always going to be flaws in/with studies but that doesn't mean we should just completely disregard them.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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Regardless of the studies Rita, there still exists the fact that as adults we are expected to communicate without using physical force to "get our point across" or to "teach a lesson"...so it really makes absolutely NO sense to spank or physically PUNISH a child.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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Just thought I would share this article I came across after I googled "the benefits of spanking"



http://www.nospank.net/stang2.htm



Rita, one thing stood out to me when reading the study you provided. The author said that "Research into the effects of spanking was previously hampered by the inability to find enough children who had never been spanked, given its past cultural acceptability.

But Gunnoe’s work drew on a study of 2,600 people, about a quarter of whom had never been physically chastised."



So Gunnoe was able to hypothesize a study using 3/4 children that had been physically punished and 1/4 children that had not. And then make the assertion that children that had been spanked up to the age of 6 had better overall cooperation, ambition and intelligence than those who were not physically disciplined. What I'm wondering is, of the 1/4 children that were not spanked, how many were actually disciplined at all? Many parents that support spanking will tell of how they use all other methods before resorting to spanking, so it's safe to assume that perhaps the 3/4 that were spanked, had been privy to a variety of discipline strategies and might only have been privy to a spanking once in a while. The study takes extreme liberties at making assertions about the 1/4 that were not spanked, considering there is no statement or evidence to support the variables this researcher used when drawing her hypothesis.



And before we go back to the "well other studies do the same"...yes, I agree...'tis why I don't put all my faith into them. What seems to be the case though with studies about the benefits of spanking vs. studies about the benefits of positive discipline...is that the scales are immeasurably tipped in the favour of positive discipline...which suggests to me that there is very little benefit to spanking and as much as someone might not use it often, it's still not a necessary discipline.

[deleted account]

Wow, I can't win for losing! I posted the study because YOU said there weren't any. Thats the only reason why. Most studies don't prove anything except that the few people they happened to interview/watch etc that they HAND PICKED were exactly what they expected.

The government already sticks their nose into enough of our business and I don't need them telling me how to raise my child.

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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http://www.healthfinder.gov/news/newssto...

Sometimes this country is so backward. :(
24 countries have made the right choice. It is a start.
To be honest, I am surprised there are so many moms on this board that don't spank. I usually feel so alone in these debates. Thanks guys. Guess there is some movement away from spanking. Grassroots is better than no roots.

Jaime - posted on 08/17/2010

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Kati, I think you're referring to this paragraph in Loureen's post on the first page:

"A study of the effects of physical punishment on children's later aggressive behavior showed that the more frequently a child was given physical punishment, the more likely it was that he would behave aggressively toward other family members and peers. Spanking caused less aggression if it was done in an overall nurturing environment and the child was always given a rational explanation of why the spanking occurred."

It does not state that spanking is beneficial, it merely points out the likelihood of less aggression if spanking is done in a loving and nurturing manner and it is explained to the child. But despite that, I don't think it makes sense to even spank a child at this point, when both parties are calm and the likelihood of positive behaviour strategies being well received is much higher.

[deleted account]

Sally Navle, do you really have to be smarty? I mean if you have something to say that is beneficial to proving me otherwise then by all means go ahead, I don't mind at all!

But as I stated before you can find a study that proves ANYTHING! That my dear is why studies IMO never amount to a hill of beans. Yes spanking works when used properly. Period..I hadn't posted a study because I have had foot surgery on my GOOD foot and my other foot doest work well and my computer was up stairs. Sorry to inconvience you in having to wait for my response.


Young children spanked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those who have never been hit, a study has found.

According to the research, children spanked up to the age of 6 were likely as teenagers to perform better at school and were more likely to carry out volunteer work and to want to go to college than their peers who had never been physically disciplined.

But children who continued to be spanked into adolescence showed clear behavioral problems.

Children’s groups and lawmakers in the UK have tried several times to have physical chastisement by parents outlawed, the Times of London reported. They claim it is a form of abuse that causes long-term harm to children and say banning it would send a clear signal that violence is unacceptable.

However, Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, said her study showed there was insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to choose how they discipline their children.

“The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data,” said Gunnoe. “I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just don’t use it for all your jobs.”

Research into the effects of spanking was previously hampered by the inability to find enough children who had never been spanked, given its past cultural acceptability.

But Gunnoe’s work drew on a study of 2,600 people, about a quarter of whom had never been physically chastised.

Rosie - posted on 08/17/2010

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ok, just so we're clear on this i'm not an avid pro-spanker, but loureens posted study showed that spanking was beneficial when used the correct way.

Sally - posted on 08/17/2010

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Dana, Dana, Dana, you silly girl.... There is nothing for them to post. As a spanking is beneficial study simply does not exsist.
Don't you see? They don't need facts, they are better than the studies. They have the RIGHT to spank. And since they have the RIGHT. Nothing else matters. Pretty simple after all. Since it was done to them, it must be ok.

[deleted account]

Laureen, who is to say they weren't disciplined at all? Do you know each and every case? I have spoken directly with the parents who claim they have tried EVERYTHING, well except spanking of course. Now I never said that because they weren't spanked they were out of control, I simply stated that they DIDN'T spank them. So, no..it didn't elude me as you mistakenly stated. I was simply stating the obvious.

Charlie - posted on 08/17/2010

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AGAIN Rita , those children your friend talks about are that way not because the weren't spanked but because weren't disciplined at all BIG difference apparently that eludes some . .

"You can find a study that supports just about anything "

And yet no one has provided a reputable , conclusive study that supports spanking , why is that do you think ?

[deleted account]

Im not going to read through 117 posts but I would just like to say that I do know the difference between child abuse and discipline. I will discipline my child when I see fit and if that includes a spank on the wrist or bottom then I will do so.

Yes, I was spanked as a child, however it wasn't very often because I learned my lesson quickly. I was a very respectful child/teenager and did exactly what my mother told me to do because I respected her. I can count on one hand how many times I was spanked and when I was old enough to understand other forms of punishments then those were the routes taken. I plan to do the same with my child and he will thank me in the end.

As you can see I don't get on here often, so if you respond to me and I don't answer that is the reason why. I only posted this because I had a friend (police officer) stating how he constantly goes to calls about out of control children and how most of the parents never spanked their children. Now I am BY NO MEANS saying that if you don't spank your child they will be out of control but I did work for the Police Department for years and got many calls revolving around out of control children and they were all the same.

You can find a study that supports just about anything you want but it is up to the parent and what is best for their child.

Thanks girls.....btw I really hate this small space you have to write in, is there anyway to make it bigger?

[deleted account]

Strange, Cara's posts appear to have disappeared...
What I found interesting was her remark about spanking her children young enough so that hopefully they wouldn't remember. Why would you hope that if, on some level at least you were ashamed and/or knew it was wrong. If you truly thought you were doing the best for your child, why would you want to hide it from them? And spanking them until they're sorry is probably the saddest thing I have read on this thread.

Going back to the 'Well I was spanked and it never hurt me' discussion. Just because you can't see or won't admit that you've had negative consequences as a result of spanking doesn't mean you haven't. I wasn't smacked often as a child but that was mainly because I became good at lying and hiding any misbehaviour that I did (a direct result from the smacking). As an adult, I'm very happy. I have a great child and husband and a job that I love. I'm educated. People like me. I am happy and healthy and I know that my parents are proud of me BUT a do have some little negative quirks, like everybody else, which I can see as a direct result of being smacked (or the threat of smacks). Not all of my imperfections are a result from this, I'm not saying "My parents ruined my life and are to blame for everything", not at all, but there are a few things that I do or feel that I can see were caused or influenced by being smacked. Your preschool years, especially the first three are your formative years. Your experiences (if you remember them or not) at this time have a huge impact on your personality, how you socialise, how you learn, how you learn to deal with situations etc etc, how can you honestly say that being hit by the person you love the most in the world at this time couldn't have an impact?

"This is the first generation in the US that is the biproduct of removing corporal punishment from the equation and quite frankly, they suck. "

Sarah, firstly, every generation thinks the current generation is flawed. Even Plato thought the parents of the day were letting their children run riot.
Secondly, there have been too many changes to society over the last 50 years (or even 20 years) to say that not smacking is the cause of this 'sucky' generation. What about the rise of technology/materialism/working parents/fear/the media etc etc? I'm not saying that both parents working in general is bad for children, but when working parents (especially working mothers) feel guilty and overcompensate by lavishing their kids with toys and technologies well then sure, kids could grow up feeling entitled.

And lastly
"I also want to throw out there that in decades past, spanking was the norm here in the US...corporal punishment was practiced in schools all the time, and we dont have generations of screwed up people..."

Heather, do you really think we should return to corporal punishment in schools? I think the increase in the number of children finishing high school and going on to tertiary education is due to a number of factors, one of which is children no longer being put off from education due to corporal punishment.

Frankly, I think of smacking as 'lazy parenting'. There are so many positive strategies that you can use with your children but they do require time and consistency. Smacking is easier and quicker for the parent, not right for the child or behaviour.

Jaime - posted on 08/16/2010

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Yep, Cara deleted her posts...she had two comments on here and now they are gone--CLASSIC! What's the point of entering an adult discussion if you're not going to be an adult and let your point stand in a debate to be read and responded to by others? GAH! Just baffles me!

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