To Sleep Train or Not to Sleep Train

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 10/28/2011

I'm locking this because it's old. If you ladies want to pick this discussion up in a new thread then feel free to start one.
Thanks,
Sara
Admin

Lise - posted on 10/28/2011

http://womanuncensored.blogspot.com/2009...

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/28/2011

Ok, I'll repeat this again.



If it feels wrong DON'T do it!

If you're crying wanting to pick up your baby then youre NOT doing the right thing.

NO baby is better off by learning mom doesn't give a **** beyond 8pm

And standing outside a baby's crib refusing to pick them up is CRUEL teasing!



I'm sorry, any "method" that requires ANY amount of crying is wrong.



No other animal is so cruel as to purposefully ignore their baby's needs for selfish reasons.



Go ahead, argue me. But nothing will ever convince me that babies deserve to cry to sleep. I couldn't care less if it's only 5 minute increments or if you are in sight or whatever"



If the baby is crying its moms JOB to fix it.

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/28/2011

I would never use crying as a teaching tool.
I believe humans need to be together and we don't thrive with solitary confinement.
I had one child who slept in his crib and now one who bed shares with me and my husband.
I get far more sleep bed sharing.
I'll be bed sharing with any future babies too :)
With my crib sleeping first born I nursed him to sleep then put him down. And repeated throughout the night as often as he woke. He sleeps through the night most nights now at 2 years.
My issue with CIO or sleep training is when parents force babies to overcome natural instincts. To ignore natural needs, to cope before they're old enough to really sooth themselves.
If it feels wrong, don't do it.
That's my main advise. Don't think, 'its for their own good' if you're crying outside their door just wanting to run in by them.
If you feel like your baby is just grumping or winding down and the sound of it doesn't pull your heart then by all means let them be. But as soon as your mama bear instincts say, my poor baby!, That's whenyou should go with your gut and respond to your baby.

Babies don't manipulate, they don't have ill intentions, and they aren't born to be independent. They have needs beyond feeding and diapers and warmth and crying is their only way to communicate.
So listen to their 'words' and respond like you would like them to respond to you one day :)


(sorry I'm posting before reading) ill read and post again if needed :)

Laura - posted on 10/23/2011

Definitely sleep train. I did this from Erin being 8 weeks old, as I had seen what my sister went through trying to get her little one to sleep on his own. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, but, believe me, it's worth it.

I would stick to the same routine every night - bath at 6, pyjamas, then breastfeed her a lot (keep waking her if she fell asleep). Erin has always been a big eater, so I knew she was not hungry when she woke. I would then put her to bed no later than 7.30pm, whether she was asleep or not. She would sleep for a bit, but then wake crying. I started by standing at the door, then gradually moved away, leaving her for longer and longer periods of time (starting at 5 minutes, then 7, then 10 etc). I would then go to her at 10pm on the dot for another big feed. On the first three nights, she would cry from 8pm until 10pm, which was heartbreaking. However, on the fifth night, she slept from 7 - 10pm, had a feed then went back to sleep as usual. Since that night, she has gone down at 7 every night without a fuss, and that was just over a year ago.

It was so hard. I cried along with her. I don't know how I managed to not pick her up and cuddle her. I'm so glad I did it now, though, and wouldn't hesitate with doing it again whenever we have another child. Erin is a very happy child, who isn't scarred in any way with us doing the CIO method. She was very young when we did it, though, but looking back, she'll never remember it, and it was the best time for us to do it.

Allie - posted on 03/14/2011

Sleep train. Its hard.. REAL hard. but totally worth it. I know before my son was sleeping through the night, I wasn't sleeping well, which meant I wasn't 110% throughout the day, and my son deserves that. He should get me at 200% each day (probably not physically possible but still worth a shot).

I also know that there are different variations of the CIO method and you can easily adapt it to where it works successfully. We went in every five minutes at first, then let more time lapse gradually.. My friend who is a lactation nurse and a mother of 6 told me it only takes 5 days but you have to be consistent.. it did.. it was hard.. I cried a lot too, but it was worth it.



I agree with you Brandi, the idea of giving my child anything that makes him sleepy (other than if its a medicine like benedryl and he has a legitimate reason for taking it) scares the sh** out of me. He's almost 3 and I still wouldn't do that. I love me some chamomile tea at night, I also like a glass of wine... neither of which will I be giving him.



Best of luck!

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

i know where you are coming from with the sleeplessness. my son was about 5 or 6 months and i was holding him on the couch in his boppy til he fell asleep good enough for me to very carefully carry him to his bed and put him down without waking him. i wouldnt get to bed til about an hour and a half to two hours after my hubby. it was exhausting and just horrible. finally, we just started laying him down awake. he cried, but we went in every 10-15 mins for a little while til finally he fell asleep. i cant remember if we starteddoing that at naptime or bedtime but i think it was naps. then we just kept it up and it only took a few days, maybe a week, and he was sleep trained. i certainly wouldnt call what we did the ferber method though. i would never let my child cry til he puked. when my daughter was born we did the same thing with her(when she was about 4 months) and she now falls asleep on her own too. As for the co-sleeping. we did it a little bit when the kids were newborns but after about a month they slept in their cribs alone. now, they only get to sleep with us if they had a bad dream or are sick. good luck!

Chatty - posted on 01/17/2011

Just glad she's doing better, Brandi -- for your sake too! :)

Brandi - posted on 01/17/2011

Okay, first-Rebecca is right. It was annoying to me when Julianne kept insisting I give my kid chamomile tea. I know you think it is some miracle flower and that is fine. I drink it myself on occasion. That said, I am not a parent who will give my baby random stuff. It isn't like I think something is wrong with it, but I definitely fall into the camp of parents who EBF for the first six months and then only give watered down juice besides milk until one year. I am simply not comfortable giving Isla tea that will make her "sleepy". That idea freaks me out. I can't stand to give her ibuprofen. Hell, I don't even take pain medicine unless I am desperate.



I know you think it is better to give her something that will put her to sleep than to let her CIO, which I totally understand. I don't want my baby to cry, believe me. I did not want to do this. But I've been taking care of her for 11 mos now and I can safely say I had no choice. I don't let her CIO anyway! Ferberizing isn't the same thing as just putting your kid down to cry and leaving. Isla never cries longer than five minutes before going to bed now. And I can see that not happening anymore either in the near future. This is what it took for her to learn. She's happier during the day like this.



So my apologies to those I offended or got snippy with.

Jaime - posted on 01/15/2011

Oi...Brandi I really hope things are going better as far as the sleeping goes. I guess that about does it for me in this conversation.

Rebecca - posted on 01/15/2011

I don't think she was ridiculing your advice -- I think she rejected your advice as something she wasn't going to follow and was then getting annoyed when you wouldn't just let it go. Just because someone asks for advice doesn't mean they have to follow the advice of every person who responds.

Chatty - posted on 01/14/2011

RIGHT! :)

Krista - posted on 01/14/2011

You guys were just mis-communicating, actually. You kind of got hung up on the bowel movement thing for awhile, and because her kid already HAS a few bowel movements a day, she knew that wasn't the issue. So it was this long digression based on a symptom that her kid doesn't have.

Anyway, the most important thing is that her child appears to be sleeping better, right?

Julianne - posted on 01/14/2011

She was actually ridiculing my advice.....not going on about how she tried it before..... I was only trying to help, and if you(general) dont want help, dont ask.

Krista - posted on 01/14/2011

Loureen, I think Brandi is just frustrated. No, she shouldn't have taken it out on you, but she did just go through a rather frustrating back-and-forth with Julianne on this topic, so my guess is that she's not only tired, but tired of being told to do things that she KNOWS don't or didn't work.

Brandi, I'm very glad to hear that the gentle version of Ferber seems to be doing the trick. A few minutes of fussing is fine, and I will eat my hat if it does any damage to your baby. The extreme lack of sleep was probably much worse for her (not to mention much worse for you!) I hope that she continues to sleep well -- it really does make ALL the difference in your outlook when you're not sleep-deprived.

Charlie - posted on 01/13/2011

WOW attitude , no sorry my hectic home life didn't give me time to read all 5 pages of posts , sorry next time I see you ask for "help" I guess I will just ignore it .

Jaime - posted on 01/13/2011

Brandi, it is very clear that you are frustrated as evidenced by your tone in your comments to people on this thread. You have asked for advice, and advice has been given...what more can we do to help? I think EVERYONE here understands the frustrations of a not-sleeping child. Although it sounds like you've had quite the battle going on for a while. I know it's not easy, and you sound exhausted. Give yourself a break, take some deep breaths and realize that you ARE doing all that you can. If you're not comfortable with CIO--don't do it. Your daughter is not damaged because you attended to her every time she cried, she's obvioulsy going through an adjustment period and realizing that she has the ability to covet your attention now. You have all the books, you've tried everything possible...so now you just have to wait it out and be consistent. What you have done is not wrong...there is no one way to do things. I think that's why Julianne offered you a different opinion about possible constipation. Albeit she was a bit gung-ho in her delivery, I don't think she meant to irritate you and I think you are carrying on rather harshly. Julianne made a suggestion about chamomile tea and you have chosen not to go that route which is perfectly acceptable. But Julianne is not the only one suggesting it, so it might be worth looking into...and that's all I and a few others are saying. As for the constipation...perhaps it's not actually constipation (if she has regular poops) but maybe she is having trouble sleeping because she's hitting close to a growth spurt and she has sore legs and perhaps even a bit of an upset tummy. And maybe she is just having a tough time sleeping on her own. At this point it sounds like you will just have to be patient with her and hope things settle. But I still think you should consider the chamomile tea...even peppermint tea is great as a relaxer.



I do hope that things get better in the next few days, but perhaps you just need to take a step back and a breather because we're all here to help you if that's what you want.



Edit to add: I know that you've said that your daughter is sleeping better, and I'm glad, but if you ever run into this situation again, at least you have a few more ideas than before.

Brandi - posted on 01/13/2011

You obviously didn't read the entire OP. Yes. I bought the NCSS, The Baby Sleep Book too. None of those things worked for her. In fact, I had been doing most of that stuff for months before I bought the books. We established a bed time routine when she was about four months old. It's always been bath, massage, PJs, book/cuddles, milk, then bed.

I don't know the exact reason she started waking like this. All I know is that I tried every thing. EVERY THING. To avoid doing Ferber (which isn't the exact same thing as CIO). It just is not humanly possible for me to wake up every 45 minutes with her. I have to sleep at night so I can take care of her during the day. And she needs sleep. This is the only way we've gotten it.

Maybe it is because I have done it older than some parents, I don't know. But she doesn't even cry at bedtime. She fusses for about a minute and a half and then falls asleep. I could be wrong, but my gut says that I was interrupting her sleep by running to her and I was keeping her from figuring it out. I know not everyone buys that philosophy. I wouldn't either if Isla was still a six month old. But she's almost one.

Charlie - posted on 01/13/2011

Poo's and constipation aside it does help aid sleep and can be bought organic at not too much more cost than normal , if you don't want to that is totally your choice but all tummy issues aside Julianne has a valid suggestion .

CIO is not your only option though have you read The No-Cry Sleep Solution: Gentle Ways to Help Your Baby Sleep Through the Night , by author and parent educator Elizabeth Pantley. I was lucky enough to not need it but parents swear by it .

Rebecca - posted on 01/13/2011

Exactly, Brandi!! ;-)

Brandi - posted on 01/12/2011

Here is the thing: This has been going on six months. I have investigated every single thing she has listed. With her pedi. I even tried meds for reflux. I can tell by how Isla cries if it's due to discomfort or pain or if she's just fussing because she woke up. She hardly ever cries when she wakes now. She even sits up in her crib, looks around,and goes back to sleep. Before when she was sleeping with me, she was miserable and constantly awake. I think I was waking her up by being near her. She is a totally different baby since we did this.

As far as giving her herbal tea, no I won't do that without the consent of her pedi. If she was having some kind of tummy issue, then I would call and ask if I could do that. But I know she's not! That's what is annoying-even after I explained she DOES have the number of bowel movements Dr. Julianne says she should, she still insisted she was constipated. Like it isn't ever possible that a one year old would wake up just because.

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 01/12/2011

No, the poo and debate about herbal teas is off-topic lol

Jaime - posted on 01/12/2011

So then what about trying chamomile for the sleep issue? It might work. And she'll have an awesome digestive tract at that! I don't see how this is off topic, but I definitely think some people are getting a bit defensive when they need not be about this whole tea suggestion. The OP is about sleep issues...chamomile is widely known as a relaxer and sleep aide...so what's the big deal?

*Fluffy Bunnies - posted on 01/12/2011

Let's get things back on-topic.

Brandi, is she sleeping any better?

Julianne - posted on 01/12/2011

people drink chamomile tea every day, just because it tastes good. it doesn't have any negative effects, unless you are allergic, which is rare. The way i see it, pro con ratio, the tea would be much better then CIO

Rebecca - posted on 01/12/2011

The problem with herbal teas, including chamomile, is not that someone might be allergic to the chamomile, it is that herbal teas are frequently contaminated with weeds, which are highly allergenic.

My point with the tea/bowl movements is that the poster has already stated, repeatedly, that her child has multiple bowel movements per day and has NO digestive problems. Throwing in a cup of chamomile tea to me is like throwing a bunch of crap on the wall with the hope that something will stick -- it seems pretty pointless to give a kid a tea for digestive problems when the kid doesn't HAVE digestive problems. Yes, I know chamomile tea is supposed to "help" with anxiety and is known as the sleepy-time tea, but why resort to a drug (flower or not, you are using it as a drug) when you can teach her self-calming methods that don't involve drugs?

Jaime - posted on 01/12/2011

mmm fennel tea sounds yummy! I have given Gray peppermint tea to ease his tummy pains and it does help so I'm all for trying the herbal tea remedy.

Daniela - posted on 01/12/2011

I sometimes give my baby chamomile tea before bedtime, or fennel tea when her belly is a bit off. I agree with Julianna, there is no harm in trying something as benign as chamomile tea. The worst that can happen is that it makes no difference at all.

Julianne - posted on 01/12/2011

It helps with relaxation, plus its a flower, not a drug, a flower. Its been used for centuries for common issues when it comes to babies, its safer than giving them Tylenol or orajel. Tea is better than juice, and more pure than any formula thought of being. Its natural. any child "might" have an allergy to anything, if you want to use that as a reason not to give it to your child, dont give them milk, nuts, strawberries or anything else that is common for allergies, an allergy to chamomile is uncommon....

Jaime - posted on 01/12/2011

I can understand that it might be frustrating to be presented with an uncommon opinion and suggestion about infant/toddler discomfort, but really what's the harm in being open-minded about it?

I don't think that Julianne is intending on pissing anyone off with her assertion that chamomile tea is a remedy for various digestive and bodily ailments. I can understand that it's frustrating to find out that what we *think* we know about the human anatomy isn't always the full truth. I agree that we should poop more, and because most of us don't, it could have a lot to do with why we suffer headaches, high bp, feeling bloated, depressed, stressed...any number of things really. Bottom line, I think an alternative solution is being offered and instead of balking at it, why not give it a try? Or at the very least do some reading about it. I know that herbal remedies are always cautioned because they are not regulated the same as pharmaseuticals, but I would hazard a guess and say that chamomile tea is likely not an herbal remedy to be too worried about....unless the child has known allergies already.

Rebecca - posted on 01/12/2011

I don't know that I would mess with the chamomile tea -- teas aren't exactly known for purity, particularly herbal teas. If the child has any sort of allergies, it will cause more harm than good. Plus, it isn't going to help with not sleeping if the reason for not sleeping is just a lack of learning how to settle herself.

Julianne - posted on 01/11/2011

chamomile tea helps with teething, constipation, bloat, gas, stress, anxiety and helps promote healthy sleep patterns


if its not the problem, what i suggested is the remedy for multiple issues.

Rebecca - posted on 01/11/2011

Can we stop obsessing over bowel movements already? That's not the problem here!!

Julianne - posted on 01/11/2011

oh it also helps with colic..it will even cure up a diaper rash when ingested....its wonderful.

Julianne - posted on 01/11/2011

I'm not implying your an idiot. I suggested an idea. OK sorry for trying to help, you and your daughter fall into the 10% of people who are not constipated...





chamomile tea helps with teething, constipation, bloat, gas, stress, anxiety and helps promote healthy sleep patterns. its a homeopathic treatment. with no bad side effects, 100% natural :)

Brandi - posted on 01/11/2011

Why would I give her chamomile for constipation? She has regular bowel movements, 3-4 a day. Hence why I said she has bowel MOVEMENTS (plural) every day.

That aside, it's absolutely ridiculous to assume a baby is constipated when the only symptom they show is crying at night. If she was that constipated, she'd cry all day too. Her abdomen would be distended. She wouldn't be pooping a lot.

I know you're not implying you know her better than me, but you are implying I'm a total idiot. Because I know how to tell if my kid is constipated. I'm also a nursing student and I have a pretty good understanding of the human body and what is normal and what isn't.

Julianne - posted on 01/11/2011

no they wouldn't, everyone should have a bowel movement for every meal they eat. not pooping at all would cause a serious problem. Instead of just saying, im wrong without trying it out. Give her a bottle of chamomile tea, and see if she sleeps. You said yourself you dont want to leave her crying to get her to sleep. If theirs a possibility its something else. why not try it out. I'm not trying to say "i know your child better then you" Just that i do understand medically, the way the human digestive system works. If someone, regardless of their age, is only makeing one bowel movement a day, and eating 3-4 times, they are missing 3 movements a day. Grunting, actually pushing, when having a movement. Is NOT normal. That means your constipated..Does she forcefully push when having a movement?

Brandi - posted on 01/11/2011

Julianne, I am starting to wonder if you are in denial about my child. When did I ever imply she eats once a day? I said she has bowel movements every day. What more do I have to explain to you so that you realize she isn't constipated? An adult might walk around constipated their whole life. But if a baby was constipated for six months we'd have a serious problem. I mean, c'mon!

There is nothing wrong with my child, believe me. She simply doesn't want to go to sleep.

Allie - posted on 01/11/2011

Sleep training (the Ferber method) was the best thing I ever did for me and my son (around 9months old). I hated doing it the whole time, but I knew that when it was all said and done he and I would both be more rested. And I know that when I'm tired and not 100% my son pays for it, so I want to get my full 8 hours and be the best mom I can be.
Ultimately it comes down to what you and your partner decide. My husband and I were on the same page and he was totally my rock through the whole thing. I remember one night in December my son was having a particularly hard time and I just had to go outside (in 18 degree weather) and just sit and cry and he was out there with me.
I nursed my son until he was 1.5 and a lactation consultant friend of mine (who had 4 kids of her own) told me that it only takes two weeks of sticking to the plan. And it did. After two weeks he knew the routine and slept through the night!
He's 2.5 now and in a toddler bed and we have no problems with sleeping nap time or bedtime. He knows that we eat dinner, take a bath, read books, cuddle/say prayers, then lay down (be silent). Then (I wake up before he does) and meet him at the door when he wakes up!
Good luck and know that regardless of what you choose, you're doing the right thing for your child and they will love you unconditionally no matter what!

Meghan - posted on 01/10/2011

Lets also keep in mind AGE of the baby. No one who uses CIO in any variation would advocate it for a child under 6 months-at least I hope they wouldn't.
I am a single mom who is going to school. My son wants cuddles and conversation ALL nite. If it were up to him he would be up until mid nite playing and talking. He is capable of falling asleep on his own, but he would rather have me there. I am one person and I can't lay with him everynite and get laundry done and the kitchen cleaned up and school work done AND have a little bit of time to myself. Sometimes variations of CIO work sometimes they don't. I would bet my bottom dollar that my son does not feel neglected or unloved because I let him fuss and be angry for 10 minutes a nite and I am pretty sure that the crying hasn't affected his brain in a negative way. Older babies and toddlers do start to figure things out and it can become a matter of WANT over NEED.

Julianne - posted on 01/10/2011

She has bowel movements every day.



does she only eat once a day?

people can be constipated for their entire life...

Daniela - posted on 01/10/2011

Don't under-estimate the importance of naps. My daughter acted like yours from four to eight months. Every single night I got up and rocked and nursed her for hours because she was crying although we were co-sleeping. She was simply over-tired. It took as four months to get her rested enough so I wouldn't have to get up anymore, but could just nurse her back to sleep. At ten months she dropped a nap and as a result got over-tired again. We had to resort to medication for a months in order to get her out of that downward spiral. Now, at 16 months, I am still napping with her during the day, to make sure she stays down the whole two hours, because I know night-time sleep is going to deteriorate if she doesn't get it. If I could get her down earlier in the day, she'd probably sleep much better at night still, but she is waiting for me to return from work, so we are kind of stuck with 1pm. Anyway, just saying length and timing of naps are hugely important.

Brandi - posted on 01/10/2011

As I said before, Isla is perfectly healthy. She has bowel movements every day. I also pointed out that we have tried gas drops as well. I would know if it was something small like that. Gas is pretty easy to detect.

Also constipation doesn't necessarily mean no bowel movements. A child who is having infrequent bowel movements is likely to not be eating enough. When you are constipated, you have hard dry stools.

Besides, I doubt she's been constipated for the past six months. Which is how long this has been happening.

Toni - posted on 01/10/2011

Ok well let's agree to disagree because I am not going to debate how many poos a child should be having a day on a sleep training debate it's rather off topic, I was merely pointing out that not every child needs several poos a day.

Julianne - posted on 01/10/2011

it might not be gas or constipation, but if her bowel movements are not regular, its worth a try. If it might help, why not?

Chatty - posted on 01/10/2011

I have to agree with Julianne about the "pooping".....everyone SHOULD have a bowel movement after each meal, resulting in 3-4 bowel movements a day BUT, a lot of people don't for different reasons.

That being said, after reading everything Brandi said, I doubt very much it's gas, or constipation. Although I don't typically recommend sleep training, unlike Julianne, I DO believe that sleep training CAN be VERY effective in some cases.

Good luck!

Julianne - posted on 01/10/2011

http://deepfitness.com/4686/How-Many-Bow...

Julianne - posted on 01/10/2011

not true at all, everyone should have a bowel movement after every meal, its not individually based. 90% of people walk around constipated because they think once a day or week is fine.

Toni - posted on 01/10/2011

"a baby should have a bowel movement for every meal"

Not necessarily, again it is a case of individual children, like adults some need several poos a day others need one, some one every other day as long as the baby is not uncomfortable whatever their pattern is is fine.

Julianne - posted on 01/10/2011

Brandi, maybe she has gas issues, or a constipation problem, a baby should have a bowel movement for every meal...chamomile tea is great for stomach issues, much more effective than gripe water. Maybe try giving her a bottle of tea before bed to help her sleep. I think that if a child is up every couple hours when they are suppose to be sleeping, has an underlying issue.