To Spank or not to Spank....

Leah - posted on 08/20/2010 ( 124 moms have responded )

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Just wondering what other moms opinions are on spanking? Just to give a little background on me, I was spanked constantly as a child, the old pants down, laid over my dads knee, wacked several times sorta situation. I for sure learned my lesson at the time but this has hardened my relationship with my father. We still get along but its hard to forget the feeling. When I had children, I was on the fence about spanking. Now that my oldest is 3 1/2, I have a better understanding. I'm not too sure if what I do is considered spanking, there are too many variations and too many opinions that it makes it hard to catagorize. When my daughter gets out of control and is in danger of hurting herself, her 9 month old brother or is damaging anything (throwing things, knocking over chairs etc), I give her one firm smack on the butt in order to get her attention and then place her in a time out. I find this always works. It is only done in a situation that needs it and I have only done it a handful of times in her life (less then 10X). She is generally a very well behaved little girl but in the situations that need something other than me chasing her around the house for an hour trying to get her into a time out, this is the method I use. I never lay her over my knee and wack her bare butt like my dad did to me and we always discuss it after she calms down about why I had to in the first place. Does anyone have any other view points on this subject? I am looking for a respectful, well mannered debate and for everyone to repect each others opinions.

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[deleted account]

The thing is Rita, for us anti smackers, this isn't a parenting issue, it's a human rights issue. If tomorrow every behavioural research team out there came out and said "Ya know what, smacking actually does work", we still wouldn't smack our children. Smacking is violence. If I came to your house tomorrow and smacked you in the face, you could have me done for assault and rightly so. I do not have the right to lay my hands on you and I believe I do not have the right to lay my hands on my child. It's as simple as that. And in my opinion, if you don't think you're in denial and you don't think you're ignorant, well in my books, that just makes you cruel.

[deleted account]

Well, currently, for my toddler, I love the book "The Happiest Toddler on the Block" by Dr. Karp. It has a ton of techniques in there. One of his biggest is to get their attention first. The toddler that throwing a fit because she can't go outside because it's raining. He suggests to recognize her feelings first instead of just dismissing them and offering a toy. He suggests doing this by using short sentences and repetition: "Claire is sad. Sad! Sad! Claire is sad! No outside! Raining!" Once you have their attention you can expand: "You want to go outside, but look! We can't it's raining! Hey, look over here! It's your favorite toy. Come play with me!" He calls this toddler-ese. It's speaking in their language so that they can understand. He talks a lot about respecting their feelings instead of trying to ignore them by immediately offering distractions. Like I said, there are tons of other techniques. I'm not a "parent by the book" type of parent, but I love this book. Yes, I have tried these with my 15 month old. The repeating (Claire is sad! Sad! Sad!) works really well at stopping the tantrum.



As for older children, I've dealt with tons of sharing, hitting, fighting issues. I went to a college that encouraged child-centered teaching. Two kids are fighting over the same toy. We watched for a minute to see if they could work it out. You'd be surprised how often they do when they're taught how to. If they need help we would go over and ask them both what happened. Timmy says Johnny has a toy he wants. We ask Johnny how long he will be until he's done. He says two minutes (if they say something extreme you can offer choices: a minute or two minutes). Set a timer. When the timer dings their turn is over and Johnny gives the toy to Timmy. Offering choices was a big way to curb unwanted behavior. If a child is throwing sand in the sand box he gets a reminder. If he does it again then we tell them they are all done in the sand box and offer them choices (usually 2. You don't want to offer too many). You can play on the swings or play baseball. They pick then they go. They feel a little more in control when it's their choice instead of them being told. We used time outs as a very last resort and it wasn't used that often.



That was long! lol. I do love that book though. He has sections for stopping bad behavior, curbing "annoying" behavior (not dangerous, but you'd rather they not do) and encouraging good behavior. My favorite for encouraging good behavior is gossiping! This works great for toddlers and kids. Talk loud enough for your child to hear, but act like you don't want the to hear. You can talk to your partner, their stuffed animal, etc. and gossip about how well your child did something (I LOVE the way Claire waited until I was done talking to grandma to ask a question.) Sounds a bit silly, but it works!

Jaime - posted on 08/25/2010

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My take on spanking: IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!

"I've tried everything else and nothing has worked"...so what happens when spanking doesn't work or can't be done any longer?

"I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine". No you didn't, you grew up thinking that it's okay to spank your kid if they misbehave

"I spank in a calm and loving manner"....CREEEEEEEEEEPY!

"I only tap them lightly on the bottom, not enough to hurt them". So then what's the point?

"I do it to get the point across". What point exactly, that you're a big bully?

"Spanking teaches kids to be respectful". Yes, clearly exerting power and force over your child is the quickest way to gain their respect.

"Spare the rod spoil the child"...SHUT UP ALREADY!

Charlie - posted on 08/21/2010

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When even those 'experts " who agree with spanking call it a " dangerous Tool " alarm bells should ring !

No one is holier than thou , people make mistakes the difference is those who learn from them and attempt to better themselves through education and those who willingly remain ignorant at the expense of a child .

People have this starnge sense of ownership over their children and think as a parent they have the right to do whatever they like to little children but we do not own children , they are a gift to us for a small portion of our lives it is our job to DISCIPLINE them through guidance to teach them right from wrong , lead by example , to love and nurture them with respect , IMO there is no room for spanking in modern , informed parenting .

Charlie - posted on 08/21/2010

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I am completley opposed to smacking , popping , spanking whatever little nicknames people want to give it , it is still hitting !

Smacking is an ineffective way of disciplining a child. It provides children with no incentive to behave well. Smacking only makes a child upset and doesn't teach young children anything, except that domestic violence is okay.

Children are too young to understand so smacking is pointless. Children who are too young to understand an explanation of why their behaviour is wrong are equally unlikely to be able to relate a smack to their supposed crime.

There are more effective disciplinary techniques. In Germany, where the law on smacking was modified in 2000, smacking has declined and there has been a reported rise in disciplinary methods like television bans and reduced pocket money. A ban on smacking would provide a clear legal basis for the promotion of similar positive, non-violent forms of discipline, which reduce family stress and promote polite children.

positive DISCIPLINE methods work , yes thats right in real life .

teach by example , discipline with love and out of respect not fear .

Ive always been of the thought " treat people the way you want to be treated " and that includes children especially your own .

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Stasia - posted on 08/29/2010

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Spanking under two years old is illegal where I live, and I believe even at an older age it is inappropriate.
When children are spanked they learn that it is appropriate to respond to a negative situation with violence or anger. Its also worse when the parent is angry while doing the spanking

Jennifer - posted on 08/28/2010

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I don't believe in spanking. My husband and I were both spanked as children. Often out of anger and excessively. Even though I get along with my parents now if I think about those times I have resentment and remember feeling degraded.

I have found if it's a split second thing where you are trying to get their attention (as in your examples) if I clap once really loudly right behind them it usually does the trick in getting them to stop and immediately redirecting their attention back to me.
You might consider giving that a try.

I do find a difference in your giving a pop and the over the knee kind of spanking thing (which I honestly do feel is child abuse). But I do think there are better options.

Jaime - posted on 08/27/2010

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And I can agree that back in our parents day, spanking was the acceptable practice and it was widely supported by everyone. Today however, we know so much more about childcare and what it takes to truly teach and learn discipline. So I just stand by my feelings that spanking is not necessary.

[deleted account]

I'd agree with that...it's obvious, spanking hurts and the same thing happened when I was spanked but whilst I know some people are affecte dgreatly by being spanked I havn't and I don't begrudge my parents for doing it, I understand why and it has made me who I am today. Plus I think whilst it's not an excuse times were very different when I was younger as to what was or wasn't acceptable.

Jaime - posted on 08/27/2010

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Jennifer, I just want to point out that your reaction to seeing a child being smacked in public is a latent response to you being spanked as a child. If it truly "makes [your] hairs stand on end!" then that is your body telling you that what you are seeing isn't good.

[deleted account]

I'm kinda bored of the whole spank debate now lol! I was spanked as a child and I wasn't scared of my parents and it was only ever done when I was putting myself in danger or in another extreme circumstance. We have decided we won't use spanking, there are othe rmethods of discipline but as always it's up to others what they do. I hate seeing a child smacked in publix though...it makes my hairs stand on end!

Sally - posted on 08/27/2010

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What works best is love, respect, acknowledgement of feelings, a desire to understand the childs agenda and an open mind.
What doesn't work is a heavy handed, controlling, I am right no matter what approach. When we work together with our children, letting them voice opinions, negotiate, we facilitate life long learning skills.

Jaime - posted on 08/27/2010

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Exactly Toni! I think that this is the point non-spankers are trying to make above all...that people do what works for THEM, and not necessarily in the best interest of their child.

The other thing about spanking that always baffles me is the "it's what works best for us". So to that I say, what happens at school and other people's houses? Are teachers, friends and babysitters required to follow through with the physical punishment because the parents say it's the only thing that works? I mean, how do other people manage to discipline your child without physical punishment? I know there are a few parents that give permission to their friends and family to spank their kids, but the majority would be ripping heads off if anyone physically reprimanded their child. I just don't buy the whole "it's the only thing that works, or it's what works best" because it can't possibly be.

[deleted account]

"I think a parent should stick with whatever works as far as punishments go"

I have to disagree with this statement Melissa, some would say locking a child in the understairs cupboard works or using chilli to burn babies mouths works this does not mean the methods are right.

Jaime - posted on 08/27/2010

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I wasn't aware that the debate had become disrespectful...but glad to see it's opened again.

Leah - posted on 08/27/2010

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I re-opened the questioned, I just thought that all that wanted to say something had had their chance but it still seems like there is more to be said. So feel free. But please remember to stay respectful! Happy debating all!

Charlie - posted on 08/26/2010

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well agree to disagree on the human rights issue then , i just dont think there should be one rule for adults ( ones that protect them ) and another set of rules for children that allows a bigger , stronger adult to physically assert their power over them its incredibly backward in my opinion .

Melissa - posted on 08/26/2010

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ohhh,boy,I was spanked when I was little for getting out of line and it scared me something fierce.I wasn't afraid of my parents,but of the spanking itself.when my kids get out of line I will tune them into the timeout corner,loss of things they like and last a spanking.If I'm spanking my child for something,yes,I'm pretty upset,otherwise i would not be doing it.my children are from from afraid of me and they also know where the line is drawn when it comes to following the rules,acting out etc.
I think a parent should stick with whatever works as far as punishments go.

Jaime - posted on 08/26/2010

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Believe it or not Kati, I've been where you were with the abuse...and I've shared my story many times on CoM's. For me it had the opposite effect. Abuse was all I knew and I took it out on my smaller siblings the way my parents took it out on me and my older sister. Abuse is different than a run-of-the-mill spanking, but that's not what matters to me. What matters is that kids are defenseless...mentally and physically. They are younger and smaller than their adult parents that choose to spank them in order to elicit a desired response...much the same as what you experienced with your step-dad. You didn't turn out violent, but more often than not children that receive physical punishment regularly will grow up with some kind of (mental or emotional) latent trauma (be it aversion to loud noises, wincing at movies that contain violence, shuddering when walking past someone that they've just argued with, or growing up to spank their children because it "worked" for them). Also, I don't believe there is a 'correct' way to spank a child...it's a contradiction because spanking is supposed to be a reaction and a harsh one at that. If a parent is spanking their child in a calm and loving manner, then there are plenty of other forms of discipline at the ready that don't require physical force.

Rosie - posted on 08/26/2010

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for me it's not a human rights issue though. i was beat as a toddler under the age of 2. i know what my bio-dad took from me, he took away my human rights. he left me scared, unable to trust, and left me with feelings of great guilt. my step dad didn't spank me except for one time. i don't remember what it was for, but i remember knowing that he was serious, and it commanded my attention. it didn't make me violent, it didn't make it so i didn't trust him, it made me respect what he wanted.
while i know being spanked one time in my life doesn't necessarily equivilate to a child who was spanked, i can say with much certainty that if the spankings had continued for serious offenses, and only occasionally, it wouldn't have changed my relationship with my dad (i call my step dad my dad). i have a hard time with people saying its a human rights issue when i have experienced such violence in my life at the hands of my abusive bio-dad. spanking doesn't compare, it isn't in the same league, its not even in the same galaxy as what i endured. i could tell the difference plain as day between the time i was spanked and when i was abused.

other people have received spanking as abuse and it would be impossible for them to differentiate between the 2. however in these instances it is not done the correct way. so their view of spanking is skewed a bit.

the fact remains that there is NO evidence to conclude that spanking in the correct way is harmful to a child.

Jaime - posted on 08/26/2010

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I agree...spanking is a human rights issue. All the research in the world isn't going to change that fact. Spanking just isn't necessary...it's that simple to me.

Charlie - posted on 08/26/2010

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official figures from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention indicating that youth crime has decreased in Sweden since the mid-1990s and violent crime has remained static.

Although many studies show detrimental effects of spanking or at least a correlation what is at the heart of anti corporal punishment parents is that spanking is a human rights issue .



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CHILD CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: SPANKING
The anti-spanking position

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We recommend that you first read our introduction to spanking:

We have a companion essay on the pro-spanking position

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Quotations:
bullet "...the use of corporal punishment in schools is intrinsically related to child maltreatment. It contributes to a climate of violence, it implies that society approves of the physical violation of children, it establishes an unhealthy norm...Its outright abolition throughout the nation must occur immediately." - U.S. Advisory Board on Child Abuse and Neglect, 1991-SEP-15
bullet "The fundamental need of American education is to find ways of engaging today's children in the thrill of learning. Fear of pain has no place in that process." The Christian Science Monitor, 1989-MAR-21

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Topics in this essay:
bullet The case against spanking

bullet United Nations convention on the rights of the child

bullet Useful books

bullet References

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The case against spanking:

There are many arguments against spanking:
bullet It is ineffective: Spanking a child will stop the child from misbehaving for the moment, but studies have shown that the child's compliance will only last for a short time; corporal punishment actually increases the child's non-compliant behavior in the future. Psychologist H. Stephen Glenn said "Corporal punishment is the least effective method [of discipline]. Punishment reinforces a failure identity. It reinforces rebellion, resistance, revenge and resentment. And, what people who spank children will learn is that it teaches more about you than it does about them that the whole goal is to crush the child. It's not dignified, and it's not respectful." 1
bullet It may trigger criminal, anti-social, violent, aggressive behavior later in life: A longitudinal study of 442 boys born in 1972, found that one out of every three boys -- those who have a specific version of a gene -- who was maltreated during childhood will be almost certain to exhibit anti-social or criminal behavior as an adult. Maltreatment was defined as including physical abuse. If this is true for boys subjected to physical abuse, one wonders if the violence associated with conventional levels of corporal punishment could also trigger violent or aggressive behavior later in life? Unfortunately, the study is recent, and researchers do not yet know what level of violence is needed to trigger the negative adult behavior. It can be argued that, in the absence of precise data, parents should err on the side of caution and avoid spanking at all costs. More details
bullet It has been linked to many adult problems. Corporal punishment studies have linked spanking during childhood to higher levels of adult depression, psychiatric problems, and addictions. Another study shows that children who were spanked have a lower IQ when compared to children whose parents used other methods of discipline and control.
bullet It can escalate to abuse: Because a spanking works for a while, the parent often repeats the spanking whenever the child misbehaves. Corporal punishment may then become a standard response to any misbehavior. This can lead to increasingly frequent and harsher spanking which can exceed the "reasonable force" threshold and become abuse. According to the Institute for the Prevention of Child Abuse, "85% of all cases of physical abuse result from some form of over-discipline through the use of corporal punishment". Each year about 44 Canadian children are known to have been killed by family members; 35 of them by parents. The figures for the United States are probably about 10 times higher.
bullet It can unintentionally cause serious physical damage:
bullet Boxing on the ear can burst an eardrum.
bullet Shaking can cause a concussion, whiplash, blindness, serious brain damage, or even death.
bullet Spanking can injure muscles, the sciatic nerve, pelvis, coccyx (tail bone), genitals or spine.
bullet Hitting a child's hands can injure bones, blood vessels, joints and ligaments; it can induce premature osteoarthritis.
bullet A child who is hit can accidentally fall and seriously injure themselves.
bullet It trains a child to use violence: Spanking can teach children that it is acceptable for the strong to use force against the weak -- the concept "Might makes right" is regularly reinforced. They have an increased likelihood of becoming more aggressive towards their siblings, their fellow students, and (later in life) against their spouses and their own children. Violence as a way of behaving is a learned response.
bullet Slapping or any other type of force used on the buttocks is a sexual violation: The buttocks are an erogenous zone of the human body. Their nerve system is connected to the body's sexual nerve centers. Slapping them can involuntarily trigger feelings of sexual pleasure which become mixed with the pain. This can lead to confusion in the child's mind which influences the way in which they express their sexuality as adults.
bullet Spanking lowers a child's IQ: A study at the University of New Hampshire, released in 1998-JUL, found that spanking children apparently slows down their intellectual development. 3 A study of 960 children found an average 4 point reduction in IQ among students, from and average IQ of 102 (above average) for children who are not spanked, to an average IQ 98 (below average) for who are. A reduction of 4 points is enough to have a significant negative functional effect on the students. More information
bullet Spanking creates fear in the child: "The message a toddler gets from a slap or spanking is that a parent or other loved and trusted adult is prepared to induce pain and even do physical harm to force unquestioning obedience. That's terrifying to a little kid...However well-intentioned, a slap registers as the shattering of the whole deal between parent and child. Young children are left awash in feelings of fear, shame, rage, hostility, self-destructiveness and betrayal that they can't yet resolve or manage." 2

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UN Convention on the Rights of the Child

All but one of the federal governments who are members of the United Nations have signed it. The lone holdout is the United States.

The Convention defines a child as any "human being below the age of eighteen years unless, under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier."

Article 19:
"States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and education measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child. Such protective measures should, as appropriate, include effective procedures for the establishment of social programs to provide necessary support for the child and for those who have the care of the child, as well as for other forms of prevention and for identification, reporting, referral, investigation, treatment and follow-up of instances of child maltreatment described heretofore, and, as appropriate, for judicial involvement."

This includes the united nations stance against spanking which saw countries such as Canada ban spanking before 2 and after 12 .

Rosie - posted on 08/26/2010

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oh yeah, and once again i would like to reiterate that i personally couldn't spank without anger most of the time. so there go i stopped. there is NO evidence to support the claim that spanking the CORRECT way is harmful to children, in some studies it seems it could be beneficial. i don't doubt that there are many people out there that are spanking the correct way, however i don't doubt that there are many that aren't. anyhoo, continue debating ladies!!! :)

Rosie - posted on 08/26/2010

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http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/...

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/i...

•The anti-spanking data is inconclusive because its findings fail to account for socioeconomic status. That is, certain populations might spank more and also have higher rates of alcoholism and violence. That doesn't mean that spanking caused the violence or alcohol-it only means that violence, alcohol, and spanking exist in the same community.
•The anti-spanking data is inconclusive because it does not account for the amount and method of spanking. A slap on the butt one time when your kid runs into a street is different from spanking your kid as the primary method of discipline. Most of the studies put both kids in the same category, and then draw conclusions based on the category as a whole. Some minimal spanking level, however, could be effective and cause no problems, but these studies would not pick that up.
•The anti-spanking data is inconclusive because parents may resort to spanking with kids who have serious behavioral problems once words, reasoning, and time outs have failed. Those kids will likely have more violence, anti-social behavior, and mental health problems later in life because of their behavior problems, not because they were spanked.
•Studies that control for some of these factors show that children who are spanked are not more violent than children who are not spanked.
•Since Sweden banned spanking in 1979, teenage violence has gone up by 600%.
•A review of studies by Robert E. Larzelere, a major researcher on discipline, concludes that spanking can be an effective technique in very specific circumstances. He found that for spanking to be effective it must be "2 open-handed swats to the buttocks, leaving no bruise," used only 1) by loving parents; 2) infrequently; 3) as a minor supplement to the primary techniques of reasoning and time outs; and 4) only on kids aged 2-6.
Pro-Spanking Summary: Most spanking defenders argue that the data against spanking is not at all compelling, so there is simply no reason to give up an effective form of discipline that has a long, successful history. Spanking is extremely useful if done carefully, infrequently, and as a minor part of a parent's overall disciplinary approach.

Conclusions
Both sides agree that spanking can cause harm to children and should not be used if it is frequent, physically harmful, performed in anger or frustration, or used on children under the age of 2 or 3. The camps are only divided on the limited question of whether current data or ethics support infrequent spanking as an acceptable disciplinary method in limited circumstances. Because the data is not clear and the experts and public disagree, there is no easy answer. It's a decision that parents must make for themselves after considering the facts, the arguments, their culture, and their own beliefs and values. No expert or article can make this important decision for you.

[deleted account]

I totally agree Jaime. Especially that creepy calm and loving comment. I can kind of understand hitting out of anger (though I don't condone it) but hitting out of love? Aint that an oxymoron or something?

Sherri - posted on 08/25/2010

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All 3 of my children were spanked and it worked for us.

I did one good open handed spank on a diapered or covered behind.

Charlie - posted on 08/25/2010

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Ok i took this "I was always taught, you spare the rod you spoil the child. I was spanked, and so was my husband." as meaning she bases her discipline technique of spanking on her beliefs ( in the bible ) of which she was taught by her parents .

Its the underlying reason , perhaps not the sole reason as she has stated she uses because it works for her now but is still based on the beliefs held in the bible , is it not ?

Sally - posted on 08/25/2010

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I was always taught, you spare the rod you spoil the child.
The above quote from Jennifer.
I don't see how I may have misconstrued anything.
Don't see it. Maybe I missed a post, IDK.
I stand by what I wrote.

Leah - posted on 08/25/2010

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"To me, and maybe only to me, when someone says they spank because the bible tells them too, I have to question what is the point of having higher brain?" (Sally)

"I have a hard time attributing reasoning skills to those who claim to base their decisions completely on any 1000-2000 year old collection of texts." (Carol)

I just have to say that although I do agree with you in a certain way, like if someone was going around quoting the Bible and using it and only it to justify what they are doing. However, in this particular situation, I have to disagree. You are making an assumption that this is the only reason for doing so. You are even assuming that this is a reason at all. (Sorry Jennifer, intervening on your behalf again, lol). If you go back a page, Jennifer was simply EXPLAINING where the saying comes from, not saying at all that this is the reason why she chooses to spank or anything even remotely like that. I think alot of people are twisting her words around and making it into an argument, using it to dismiss her opinions because 'she has no reasoning skills if she believes the Bible'. I feel like there are alot of ASSUMPTIONS being thrown around and no one has even bothered to ask is this is the one and only reason why she chooses to (or not to) spank. I just thought on a debate forum you were supposed to gather all the information first before making an informed decision but instead (here comes the big word again!) are assuming.

Am I the only one that can see this and understand it? I'm getting kinda frustrated explaining it over and over again, and feel like people arn't even listening or understanding what I'm saying.

Johnny - posted on 08/24/2010

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Perhaps thinking about this "respect for different parenting styles" thing from a different perspective might help to shine some light on why people can be so passionately opposed to spanking children...

Michael Vick. He thought that dog fighting was just fine & dandy. In fact, there are many people who see absolutely nothing wrong with allowing two dogs to get in a ring and work out their differences with their teeth. They've been raised around dog fighting, their cultural background accepts dog fighting as normal, and no one save outsiders has ever condemned the practice. When the entire debacle with his dog fighting ring was uncovered, there were a substantial number of people who came to his defense and suggested that in his world view, in his cultural background, dog fighting is an accepted and supported sport. Does that mean that the rest of the population is obligated to support it and to refrain from prosecuting him for animal cruelty?

I would assume the majority of posters on this board were sickened and disgusted by what Michael Vick was doing. If you were, you most likely felt justified in condemning his behavior and expecting him to change his opinion on the matter and his treatment of his animals. These sorts of feelings are perhaps somewhat similar to what those who are strongly opposed to spanking feel. To them, it is not simply a "parenting choice" any more than dog fighting is a "sport".

And Sally, very very well said. I have a hard time attributing reasoning skills to those who claim to base their decisions completely on any 1000-2000 year old collection of texts.

Sally - posted on 08/24/2010

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"The way I took what Sally said is that Jennifer can't be reasoned with because she quoted the Bible and has no reasoning skills, other than to believe what the bible says, which is an assumption, and quite honestly, I feel is quite discriminatory"



Hmmm, I don't see how it is discriminatory. Maybe a bit snarky, snotty if you will. But not discriminatory.

If your reason for spanking is an antiquated much translated book, then I question reasoning ability.

If God gave you a brain, then I would think he would want you to use it and change accordingly. We know the damaging facts of spanking. We know by way of Science how the brain learns. If our society can move past the bartering of women for cows and oxen, why can't we move past smacking our kids around? Do we still stone the adulter? Nope, we divorce the cheater and take half. Seriously, why can't we evolve with the times? Why? I don't get it. To me, and maybe only to me, when someone says they spank because the bible tells them too, I have to question what is the point of having higher brain? Is the ability to process information and make changes needed? Should we all be gatherers and herders? Nomads, if you will? Should we be trading our daughters for food and livestock? Why are we on here, using this new fangled technology? After all papyrus paper or a stone tablet was good enough for the few choosen scholars? Why do we have our Toyota's & SUV'S? Isn't a good ole handcart enough?

Oh well, too much for my little female mind, I am really only good for breeding or as chattle.

[deleted account]

I'm interested to see what their rebuttal is to that? Thanks for doing all this work, Loureen....I'm being lazy today....trying to pack and get ready to leave in the morning to visit my mom's family. YAY!

Charlie - posted on 08/24/2010

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Jennifer even the christian website states spanking is not what is meant by these verses in fact several other verses state :

"Your rod and Your staff they comfort me." Psalm 23:4.



"Your rod and your staff protect and comfort me." Psalm 23:4.



so where exactly are you getting spanking is ok from that ? because thats how others interpreted it ?



There is no authority in the Bible for the corporal punishment of children with rod or otherwise, except in the Proverbs of Solomon. It is only Solomon who recommends child-beating. Never "the Lord."



Solomon's child-rearing methods worked very badly for his own son, Prince Rehoboam. Solomon has an undeserved reputation for wisdom. In reality, he left his country oppressed and impoverished. In his later years, he turned to idol worship and practiced "the abominations of Chemosh and Moloch".



There is no support for he beating of youth outside of Solomon's Proverbs. Solomon's views are controverted both by Jesus and the Apostle John.



Paul warned Fathers against the anger and resentment that might be aroused in their children by corporal punishments. The way of love was better.



St. Paul deplored the punishment of youth by human fathers who chastised youth "for their own pleasure". Only divine chastisements were righteous.



Jesus and John saw children as being close to God and urged love rather than fear in education.



If a Christian henceforth grabs for a rod or a paddle because "the Bible says so", she is heeding the words of an idol-worshipping king, rather than the words of Christ.

Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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ok let the "bible thumper" aka Jennifer begin.....

Yes I know no where in the Bible does the exact words say that. Mr. Samuel Butler himself paraphrased Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 23:13-14. The man who was against the beatings he received when he was a child from his father the Reverend. So he himself was referring to the Bible. Which is the reason why it is referred to as a Biblical stand point.

Shepherds carried not only a staff, but a rod also. One was used to keep the sheep in line, the other was to keep them safe from predators.

Charlie - posted on 08/24/2010

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Spare the rod spoil the child is not biblical .
The phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is often incorrectly attributed to the Christian Bible. It does not appear there. It was first written in a poem by Samuel Butler in 1664.

The biblical book of Proverbs, in its original Hebrew, contains five passages which refer to disciplining children with a "shebet." The word is usually translated in English as "rod." At first glance, these passages seem to instruct parents to discipline their children using violent means -- by physically hitting them with a rod, paddle, belt,hand , or other .
implement .

Jesus said, 'I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep.' This Good Shepherd's rod and staff comfort the sheep. The rod is thrown out on a path to startle the sheep warning them that they are in danger of wandering into an unsafe place. The shepherd uses the rod to drive off coyotes and wolves. Being stubborn creatures, sheep often get themselves into ridiculous dilemmas, like our children. Children are in need of shepherding like sheep so that they don't stray off into paths that will hurt them or destroy them."

That was taken from a christian site in no where does it say that the verses that do mention a rod are implying that to discipline a child is to hit them in fact i would take the last paragraph as to mean quiet the opposite .

The rod is a symbol of guidance and safety from what i gather .

[deleted account]

LMAO! I voted for world peace a couple years back but it still hasn't happened.....what's REALLY going on here? ;)

Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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When I said to agree to disagree I was talking about the respect level, I respect your opinion, but thats doesnt mean I feel that way. We can debate this topic until the cows come home, I can say my piece and you can say yours but at the end of the day...If I have to spank my child I will, you wont. Thats the debate not dismissing you, trying to label you, calling people names thats just childish. Thats all Im saying...Lets all get along, and raise healthy beautiful children YAY! lololololol

[deleted account]

Exactly, Jennifer BUT this IS a debate forum......we can't just agree to disagree....that's not the intended purpose of this community. People just need to understand that it's not personal and stop making it all about them.

Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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Its ok Leah, Im fine =) If everyone would just agree to just disagree, the world would be a better place. Everyone feels differently and are free to have whatever opinion they want to. Its like looking at a painting and taking different things from it, reading poetry and getting a totally different message from the person next to you. I agree Dana, I like to listen to other points of view, I might not agree with it, but I respect it. Who am I to tell you how to feel, and the reverse. What works for me, might not work for you.

[deleted account]

I do get your point, for sure. I hope you don't think I was upset? Not at all....just wanted to offer my perspective, that's all. I don't do anything because someone or something tells me to or suggests I should etc. I do what feels right and when it comes to spanking, that's where my opinion comes from. I don't care how much research there is for either side, it's one topic where I can't be swayed. I've given the opposition much consideration and even changed or "amended" my views on some aspects of the spanking debate. I think it's great to argue/debate these things because that's how I learn....I can't speak for anyone else. I find these debates to be informative and enjoy learning other people's perspectives but when someone just quotes the bible and leaves it at that, THAT is when I have a problem....if I ask a question or challenge their beliefs and they have nothing more to say, THAT is when I become frustrated. Maybe I'm wrong but that's where I sit.

Leah - posted on 08/24/2010

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The way I took what Sally said is that Jennifer can't be reasoned with because she quoted the Bible and has no reasoning skills, other than to believe what the bible says, which is an assumption, and quite honestly, I feel is quite discriminatory. I do agree with you, Dana, about the misinterpretation about the Bible, in some respects. Sorry, I feel like this is somehow turning into a religious debate and not really feeling up for that right now lol. So I'm going to end the topic with that. And, again, sorry Dana, didn't mean that you personally bring up 'pages and pages' of research, but there was someone a few pages back that quite literally filled up most of one page with all research. It was an interesting and informative read, but that was really just to prove my point, that everyone believes an 'expert' if its proves their point. Doesn't matter where it comes from, the Bible or a researcher in California. But if I was to say "Ack, I can't talk to you because you believe so and so and you can't be reasoned with because of that and can't think for yourself because you believe them", well, you get my point.

[deleted account]

Leah, I can respect what you're saying but I've never brought up "pages and pages of research" because quite frankly it's difficult to prove the validity of the studies because there are so many variables that often don't get factored in. I've only ever spoken from my personal experience BUT I do find the articles, studies, research etc. interesting and there's definitely a place for it in a good debate. It's the opposing side's responsibility to dispute the findings. The "research" is open for debate.

I don't have a problem with "bible thumpers" but I do have a problem when they are misinformed and blindly quote things with no real knowledge or understanding of what they actually mean. I have a hard time when people believe something just because a book says so. They haven't met God; they haven't spoken to him and it's THEIR interpretation of what's been written. And the other thing that bothers me is that there's no consistency amoung Christians....they don't ALL feel that way. If they ALL believe in God and the Bible, then why don't they all believe in spanking? I can't get on board with that, sorry.

Leah - posted on 08/24/2010

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I just have to say this Dana and Sally and then I'll let you get back to it. Sally, you said that you can't reason with people when they bring the bible into it because they can't speak for themselves. I also feel the same way when people bring up pages and pages of research, basically believing whatever the 'expert' says. Now the expert may be right or wrong, but you're still allowing them to speak for you. It could be preceived the same way. I don't believe that Jennifer meant anything other than to explain where the quote came from (tell me if I'm wrong Jennifer, sorry if you feel I'm speaking for you :) ) and yet she basically is getting labeled as a bible thumper who only believes what the bible has to say. Don't we all believe what other people have to say, at some point in our lives?? I'm not religious by any means, but did enjoy reading the origin of the saying.

Just one more thing, a few pages ago someone said that the Pediatric society in the States is against spanking (sorry, I'm from Canada, don't know the correct acronim). Don't you think that they have to say that, in order to avoid being labelled 'child abusers' and 'child beaters', like all of us that are not completely against spanking in the thread have been labelled? I wouldn't doubt it if there was at least a handful of pediatricans out there that actually believe spanking can be helpful, maybe even use it on their own kids, but they don't dare say so, for fear of becoming outcasts in the medical community. Just some ideas, food for thought if you will.

Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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Feel the same, why reason with people who dont have beliefs or dont respect others beliefs...My thing is dont critize what you dont understand. I would never inflict what I believe on others. Only thing is you dont see me putting down what others believe. If your going to use a phrase atleast know what it came from and what it means other wise your not really having a discussion, youre just throwing words around, hoping no one reads thru the idiocy.

Sally - posted on 08/24/2010

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double ack. Once the bible comes into it, I am out. Can't reason with those who won't think for themselves.

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