What do you think???

Brie - posted on 09/14/2010 ( 94 moms have responded )

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I am going to start off by saying i am not a religious person in the least. I am an open-minded person and I am not going to say someone is wrong but that doesn't mean that I agree with you. I don't want this to be an arguement I just want to hear others opinions!
This is the United States of America. We were founded on christian beliefs. I find it absurd that people come to this country and try to change the whole idea of our country. Again, I am not religious but things like taking God out of the pledge is stupid. I understand that there are people that may not believe in God (I am a person that isn't sure) but they are not made to say the pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to participate because of the word God then don't. As an american you have that right but changing something that is several years old just because you want to cry about it is ridiculous. I am also bi-lingual, English and Spanish, because I chose to be. English is the language of the United States, learn it!!!! If you want to speak your natural language that is fine but if you are out in public trying to communicate with others then speak english. I personally am tired of pressing 1 for english that shouldn't even be a question. As for those who are immigrants to our country. You chose to come here we didn't make you. Respect the fact that we willingly took you in. Respect our rules and our laws. If we are such a bad country that you feel the need to change it why did you come here? If your country is so bad why don't you take that willingness to change back to your country and fix it?!?! I as a born and bred true american am OFFENDED by all of this. Why should we be forced to change hundreds of years worth of progress because someone who isn't even from here doesn't like it? Here in America you have the freedom of religion and freedom of speech that goes for everybody but honestly the things you are trying to change aren't hurting anybody by being what they are... If its not broke why fix it?
I really look forward to hearing what the rest of you have to say!

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[deleted account]

Well......and I'll probably get bashed for this, but as a Native American, I feel that if the original settlers had the right to come here and change everything, then anyone who wants to come here and change stuff should have the same rights.....

My people had "governments" in place. We didn't call them that...in fact, to this day my tribe's language has no word that means the same thing as government...but we had order, laws, authorities, and other aspects of a government. The settlers didn't like it, so they changed it. We had religions too, lots of them, again, the settlers didn't like our religions, so they changed those too.

Kate CP - posted on 09/14/2010

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Are you a Native American Indian? Because if you're not, then you're not a "born and bred true American". Also, this nation was NOT founded on Christian beliefs but on THE LACK of them. The founding fathers NEVER wanted there to be a national religion and they wrote the declaration of independence and the constitution in such a way to ensure that there never was or will be. The addition of "one nation under God" was added in June of 1954 by president Eisenhower. The ORIGINAL pledge of allegiance is from 1892 and is as follows:
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

"Why should we be forced to change hundreds of years worth of progress because someone who isn't even from here doesn't like it?" PROGRESS IS CHANGE!!!!! The constitution was written to allow it to change and grow with the people as we PROGRESS throughout time. The authors KNEW that 100 years from when they wrote the constitution that the same core values, wants, needs, and technology would be completely different. If you don't like change I suggest you move to Russia. Things rarely change there.

Sara - posted on 09/14/2010

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I think it's a fallacy to say that America was founded as a Christian nation. It is true that most Americans are Chrisitian, but we don't have a state religion. I believe that the constitution actually states that there will never be a religion sanctioned by the state. So there you have it. People here do have the right to practice whatever religion they want. I would say most of the things stated in the OP about being a "true american" are actually the antithesis of what the founding fathers had in mind...maybe that's just me.



Here's a great quote that pretty much sums it up for me:



"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."---Susan B Anthony in 1896, addressing the National American Woman Suffrage Association meeting

Jaime - posted on 09/14/2010

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"Why should we be forced to change hundreds of years worth of progress because someone who isn't even from here doesn't like it? Here in America you have the freedom of religion and freedom of speech that goes for everybody but honestly the things you are trying to change aren't hurting anybody by being what they are... If its not broke why fix it?"



If America truly has freedom of religion then why don't you pledge allegiance to Allah and Buddha and any other deity when you pledge allegiance to God and country? That is what needs to change. It's not that the rights and freedoms aren't written in the constitution, it's that the rights and freedoms are subject to America's idea of what that means. Freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. So then why are some people all up in arms about the mosque being built close to ground zero, or the fact that someone speaks a different language and the country has adapted their public services to suit the language barrier. And if there is truly freedom of religion, then asking to exclude God from state and government doctrine is only making the playing field equal...as the constitution of hundreds of years, suggests.

Isobel - posted on 09/23/2010

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I have a clue...and for the record, people like you live all over the world...I don't need to be in England to know that Christians have a persecution complex these days...cause they can't stand being considered EQUAL to other religions. Because YES...ALL religions are equal.

If a person were asked to remove a flag of their own country or remove a cross from their neck...there would be news articles about it...and lawsuits...please...present the evidence.

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[deleted account]

Oh and Tammy the reason SO many British are in debt is because they chose to live beyond their means, without thinking of the future! Many Britains took out mortgages that were 110, 120, 130 +% how is that sensible? Many live off credit cards or overdrafts because they have a quality of life to maintain.

How is ANY of that to do with immigration? How has immigration affected our private debts?

Before you say it, no them taking all the jobs doesn't count as an answer because they haven't.

[deleted account]

Who do I think I am? I'm the person giving the other side of the story and challenging you to look at it from another perspective. You talk about being accepting of all people regardless of beliefs, language, race etc and then you go and contradict yourself. Why would employers want employees who are less productive? It's in their favour to get the most out of employees. They wouldn't forgo production just so they wouldn't look racist. Geesh.

[deleted account]

Just for the record, I don't think ALL Brits are arrogant or have a sense of entitlement but I am talking about the ones complaining about being unemployed but not willing to compete for the same low paying, low skill level jobs.

[deleted account]

"British people are struggling to get jobs because they turn their noses up at the jobs on offer." ~Toni

You hit the nail on the head. Tammy, it has to do with Britians arrogant sense of entitlement. I agree with everything Toni said. It happens here in Canada too but it's not necessarily the immigrants, business owners or the governments fault. The citizens who are complaining need assume some of the responsibility.

[deleted account]

Also Tammy Christmas was initially a pagan celebration, it is believed it was 'taken over' by Christians to celebrate Jesus' birth (although his borthday is not known) as people were already having fun and celebrating. It gets the name Christmas from Christ Mass!

[deleted account]

Tammy I am telling you you are mistaken, maybe it looks as though immigrants are being given jobs to the detriment of British citizens to you but that is simply not true.

Yes there is a high percentage of none British workers in the UK but they tend to do the low skilled jobs which others do not want. Yes there is also many none British workers in the hospitals, again most of them are doing the jobs nobody else wants. I suspect you may be confusing the bilingual members of staff as immigrants, which obviously is not always true, many Indians(the example you gave) are born in Britain or have been given citizenship (which makes them British) so it is unfair to assume that because they have a different coloured skin or can speak Indian they are not British - many of them ARE! The post office again many of the workers there are in actual fact British!

British people are struggling to get jobs because they turn their noses up at the jobs on offer. A lot of businesses were severely affected by the recession and so a lot of workers found themselves jobless (British and none British alike) and many of the jobless people are attempting to gain employment at the same or higher levels than their previous jobs, they don't want to take a paycut. THAT is why there are still many people out of work not immigration. I do not know ANYONE who is genuinely looking for work who could not find a job!

"The USA and Austrailia are probably more fair and equality means something there but trust me not here in England. our government are so worried about racist lawsuits that they willingly put the English to the back of the cue for everything" ~ Tammy

That is complete and utter BS! Have you SEEN the housing quality the immigrants are given, not what is shown in the news but with YOUR OWN EYES, I can tell you it is not to the quality you or I or anyone we know would accept to live in, so DO NOT suggest that we are getting a raw deal! One of the main reasons there are very few council houses available is many of them have been sold onto the private market, currently there are more council properties being built.

Also the immigrants who come to the UK do so to work generally not to scrounge off our government as many British citizens do (the ones claiming the immigrants have all the jobs and can't get one)!

I don't understand where the Muslim persecution of Christians has come into anything, especially not from either of the news stories I cited, where have you got that from?

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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Anika how dare you!!!!!!!! who do u think you are?????? My mum has always worked hard and aklways slugs her guts out every job shes had!!! she isn't lazy and some sort of slacker like you are implying??? She works in a hospital with the most laziest women you would ever meet and they are all goans!!! the nurses complain about how filthy the place is because they are so lazy and you've got the nerve to accuse English of being lazy?? all people are different u r gunna get ur lazy and ur good workers in all race, creed, and colours. Our employers are not treating the potential employees with equality trust me I would bet my life on that. All the people I know that worked in factories and were laid off and are now trying to find work are all hard workers and got 100% targets whereas alot the polish were only getting 50% So how is this English being lazy and foreigners working hard??? pah u know nothing

[deleted account]

They're not just waltzing in. Have you seen how hard it is to get a working visa? Even for 'good' foreigners like New Zealanders? It's expensive, has heaps of paperwork and takes a lot of time.

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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How am i arrogant? because I find it unfair English people are unemployed wnd struggling whilst foreigners have the jobs? thats not arrogance thats fact. Of course Its a free country I didnt say it wasn't. I'm attacking the government not the people who come over to our country. Is it fair that the flood gates open for all of sundry to waltz in whilst English people are slipping further in to debt, living off the benefit sytem and suffering depression after they've applied for the hundreth job and yet again its handed to a foreigner. Me and my husband were on the housing list 2 years trying to get a house coz we were 4 floors up with 2 kids, and we were at the council every week trying to see if they had a house for us. we applied for a 3 bed house and when we didnt get it we went to take a look at it out of curiousity and guess what we find? Turkish people who only had 1 child and had only just entered the country and had been on the housing list no more than 2 weeks. this is what I;m talking about. It isnt fair to people who pay their taxes and its their home country to be pushed back and made to wait. My mum cries constantly because she has appplied to nearly 50 jobs in the past year and time and time again shes turned down but u see hordes of foreigners walking out of these said places shes applied to i'M SORRY BUT how can any1 be disagreeing with me? how can u not see this is unfair?

[deleted account]

I think if all the immigrants and 'foreigners' are getting all the jobs, the 'native' British unemployed should look at themselves. The employers employee the best people for the job regardless of skin colour, beliefs etc. If they aren't employing the 'native' British, well then maybe they're just not up to par. I have a few friends in London doing their OE. They're those filthy immigrants you're talking about stealing all your jobs. They have ALL told me about how lazy a lot of their 'native' colleagues are, how they go off and drink at lunch time and leave early for after work drinks. And these are white collar people who work for banks or insurance or IT. Again I say, look at yourselves before you start bashing the 'foreigners'.

[deleted account]

"I have been taken completely wrong because I do believe people can live wherever hey want so long as the natives are not going without homes, jobs their right to their faith as a result." ~Tammy

NO! They should be able to live wherever they want because it's a free country. YOU don't get to determine or put stipulations on what's ok. Your attitude is arrogant. I agree there's a problem but I promise you it's not JUST with the immigrants or the government! I'm not misunderstanding you.

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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I am telling you now The immigrants ARE being given all the jobs in England right now. We are witnessing it all around us. sooooo many people are getting sick of it, so may I just point out that fact is not a MYTH. my mum works in a hospital with 300 indians and only 30 english, the post office has 80 % foreigners and most factory placements are full like sardines with non-Brits whilst millions of English are out of work and struggling to find employment. I am blaming the government for this not the immigrants!! The USA and Austrailia are probably more fair and equality means something there but trust me not here in England. our government are so worried about racist lawsuits that they willingly put the English to the back of the cue for everything and that is NOT the foreign peoples faults I am not blaming the foreigners, I have been taken completely wrong because I do believe people can live wherever they want so long as the natives are not going without homes, jobs their right to their faith as a result. As for the stories in the news about the crusifixs and flags I'm not going to argue that one coz maybe your right the people may have made it a religious issue wen it was actually a health and safety issue. our media has alot to answer for then because making people think the muslims are victimising christians is what starts all these debates in the 1 st place. And Laura I personally DO believe ALL religions should be equal! I never said for one moment that christians should be the only faith or that we are the only religion that matters. i just get defensive when I hear another religion is 'offended' by christian symbols and/or holidays. Kati I do know that about christmas actually I was studying with jehovah witnesses for a long time so I know christmas started out 3 centuries after Jesus as a diff. celebration but then the christians made it into a celebration of christ to entice non believers to believe in my eyes Christmas is about jesus otherwise why would his name be in the title?

Kate CP - posted on 09/23/2010

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"I agree they should talk English if they want to live in England/America because I hate it when your at work, in the store, at an event and all you can hear is foreigners talking their own language." - Tammy

If you're going to complain about people SPEAKING a language, perhaps you should master it yourself.

[deleted account]

Anika I knew I'd forgotten something in my rushed post earlier. But I'm not going to repeat you because you said all the points I meant to make.

[deleted account]

"I agree they should talk English if they want to live in England/America because I hate it when your at work, in the store, at an event and all you can hear is foreigners talking their own language." - Tammy

Why? What do you think they're saying? Are you that insecure? And when you go on holiday, say just across the channel to France, do you speak perfect French? Are you aware that some phrases don't even translate properly between languages? Why would two native speakers speak their second language to each other? Just to make you happy? Come on. And also, who says they're foreigners? There are plenty of bilingual, even multilingual people in the UK. You are a multicultural society after all. Or are those Pakistanis/West Indians/Chinese etc etc not 'True' British?

What gets me is it's usually the people who can only speak ONE language that make these ridiculous claims. Yes, the OP person did say she spoke Spanish too but I think that's the exception. A lot of the worlds population speak more than one language. I think we should be trying to be bilingual too instead of bitching at people who are trying.

[deleted account]

Dana, I worded it wrong I meant that Tammy was right people had been told to remove their crucifixes although she had got the reason wrong, the people in question were claiming they had been forced to take them off due to religious discrimination, when in actuality they were going against uniform regs and H&S.

Rosie - posted on 09/23/2010

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um, tammy christmas isn't a christian holiday FYI. might want to research that one a bit more....

[deleted account]

How are you backing up Tammy, Toni? They weren't 'forced' to remove their crucifix because they were Christian - they were 'forced' because of uniform regulations etc. I think you're backing Laura's argument, not Tammy's?!

[deleted account]

As for the op I can understand what you are saying about people learning the main language of the country they are moving too, BUT I feel they should strive to learn it to make their lives easier, to further educate themselves, and to be polite NOT because it makes things easier for us.

[deleted account]

I have to back Tammy up there have been incidences where Christians have been 'forced' to remove crucifixes.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/artic...



The nurse in the article was told to remove her necklace due to health and safety issues NOT because it was a cross.



The 2nd is the case of a school girl being asked to remove her crucifix again due to health and safety and uniform regulations NOT because it was religious.



The removal of flags during the world cup is as Laura states a myth, personally I think the flag manufacturers made up these things so people would purchase more because 'it's an outrage, we can't fly our own flag in our own country' mentalities! The sad thing is I know people who DID go out and buy flags and flag memorabilia due to these silly rumours.



It is really easy to cry outrage but sometimes you need to look into the information, very rarely are people discriminated against because they are Christian.

[deleted account]

"I have no problem with foreigners living in our country and feel we all have a right to live wherever we want in the world" ~ Tammy

Doesn't sound that way. You seem angry and hostile. I COMPLETELY agree with Laura, but then that's not a surprise.

Kate CP - posted on 09/23/2010

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Yea, I call BS on that, too. It was a private housing commity that said they couldn't have the flags up- NOT THE GOVERNMENT OR THE POLICE.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Wor...

I don't know how the UK works, but in the US when an immigrant looks for work they have to provide documentation to get a job SAYING they can legally work in the US. They don't have "all the jobs". The ones they DO have are usualy temporary and involve some sort of custodial work where they don't have to talk to people much. But if in England y'all are just handing out jobs to any Joe Schmoe off the boat or plane then I may fly my ass over there. I love London.

Isobel - posted on 09/23/2010

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and I just found the lady from British Airways that was asked to tuck her cross under her shirt because the dress code said no visible jewelery. she should've tucked it in.

I'm pretty sure that exceptions for religious wear in the work place is designed for people who HAVE to wear a specific item...not people who just want to.

Everybody I know still calls Christmas Christmas...unless they don't know the religion of the person they are wishing it to...isn't is simply polite to wish somebody a Happy Holiday, if you don't know what religion they celebrate?

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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what do u mean u do not blieve me? cheek!!!! I am not a liar I am tellling u Gods honest truth. u dont live in England so how do u know????? im telling u these incidents have happened so dont accuse sum1 of being a liar when u dont have a clue

Isobel - posted on 09/23/2010

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I quite simply do NOT believe you. and you can call Christmas Christmas all you like...unless you work at Walmart...cause they wanna make money

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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Laura these incidents of making people take down flags and taking off crosses have happened here in England there have been newspaper reports on the particular incidents by the people involved. when the world cup was on police were going round doors telling people to take down their English flags because they offended and the incident with the cross happened at a workplace where christians worked mixed with muslims and the employer said the cross would offend so the lady had to take it off. and why should we stop calling Christmas Christmas????? Christmas is a Christian celebration and wouldnt even exist if it wasn't for christ so why call it holidays? its absurd.

Isobel - posted on 09/23/2010

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I want ONE example of a person who has been forced to remove any piece of Christian symbolism...IT HAS NEVER...EVER...HAPPENED!



Please stop saying it, it's ridiculous.



Stores say Happy Holidays because they want to make the most amount of money possible, and you do that by staying neutral...it's not a Muslim plot to remove Christ from Christmas...OH MY GOD, I can't even wait till the holidays get here, I'll have something to fight about every single day.



Nobody has ever been asked to take down a flag of where they live either...that's stupid.

Tammy - posted on 09/23/2010

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I agree they should talk English if they want to live in England/America because I hate it when your at work, in the store, at an event and all you can hear is foreigners talking their own language. I also think that all religions should be free to worship and believe the way they want to and its wrong that we cant fly our flag or wear a cross pendant or call Christmas Christmas because it mite offend the immigrants! do we make them take off their religious dress or stop ramadan etc?no! so it isn't fair to segregate the christians because their faith offends the muslims. I have no problem with foreigners living in our country and feel we all have a right to live wherever we want in the world but I do agree they should have respect for the faiths and customs of the country they are moving into without trying to change it. In England there are currently 3 million unemployed because we have such a surge of foreigners they have All the jobs and when we go on waiting lists for a house the foreigners get 1st choice which is totally unfair but thats the governments fault not the immigrant people who are just trying to make a better life for themselves. we should be respecting peoples difference in faiths and the government should be distributing the jobs and housing more equally and fairly that way people wouldn't have such hostile feelings toward the immigrants

[deleted account]

LOL Brittany, that is the biggest cliche in the book, "I'm not racist. I have friends who are black."

Brie - posted on 09/22/2010

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yeah ok... anyway what part of me saying i have friends who are immigrants didn't you get? and yet you call me ignorant... sorry that you arent intelligent enough to get the purpose of the post but thats all on you...
as far as the t-shirt thing goes i have heard of it but i haven't heard enough about it to really know what happened.. the kid shouldn't be thrown out for wearing the shirt unless they did it in an offensive manner..

Isobel - posted on 09/21/2010

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ummm...I think sending jerk offs who are looking for fights home IS an education

[deleted account]

Lol...it's probably because I spend so much time saying "Oh my god what are they wearing...do they have a mirror in their home"...lol!

Isobel - posted on 09/21/2010

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what's better than sending a bunch of good ole boys looking for a fight home to cool their heels?

I don't see anything wrong with it...and Kate...you wouldn't hear the whole story if the guy telling it to you leaned to the right...would you?

[deleted account]

I live in the Uk and the only reason I get annoyed by people speaking another language other then English is because I think OMG are they talking about me lol....just a bit paranoid lmao!

Barb - posted on 09/21/2010

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Perhaps this is a start of a new thread here about racial sensitivity. I certainly think the school could have and SHOULD have handled it better. Ignorance is generally the largest contributor to conflict.

The Flag Code of Conduct should be taught in schools and just because other countries want to wear their flags as shirts, hats, bandannas, etc, doesn't make our actions justifiable.

The school really missed an opportunity here to educate everyone about history in the here and now and what Cinco De Mayo means and embrace and respect our differences instead of inflaming everyone's anger that white American's were given the back seat to another country's celebration in the US of A

Kate CP - posted on 09/21/2010

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Laura: I think the one I was talking about happened in Garland, TX and it was just one kid as far as I know. I heard it on the radio a day or two after it happened so I suppose it could be the case you're talking about, just chopped up. I do know they never mentioned bandannas before. They're not allowed in schools here because of possible gang affiliation.

Isobel - posted on 09/21/2010

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and I do believe they were looking for fights ;P



as was the op of this thread ;P

Isobel - posted on 09/21/2010

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Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees

Freedom of expression or cultural disrespect on Cinco de Mayo?

By GEORGE KIRIYAMA

Updated 2:50 PM PDT, Thu, May 6, 2010



Print Share Buzz up!

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On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.



Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.



"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."



The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.



........................................



you sure it wasn't THAT case...cause that's the famous one.

September - posted on 09/21/2010

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I think what you would need is to be shipped to one of those "bad" countries and see just how good you have it here the way it is...



Actually Brittany I have had the opprotuinty to do just so and I do realize how lucky I am to live in America! It’s unfortunate when people make ignogrant comments like you've made in your OP. Have you ever tried to make someone who has fled to the US feel welcome or do you enjoying bitching about it more? Who cares if one can speak English or not, we are all people reagrdless of where we come from. I never asked you to explain your opinion I’m just saying your opinion IMO is F’ed up!!!! And I’m allowed to say so! Ok I think I'm done with this bias ass thread!

Thanks Dana for sticking up for me :)

Kate CP - posted on 09/21/2010

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Yes, the word "clase" to mean "class" is spanglish. Growing up in Dallas you learn real Spanish AND spanglish. Makes life interesting. ;P

Barb - posted on 09/21/2010

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Anika, you are right, the English language is one of the hardest languages to learn, which i think, is why it puts English speaking people at a disadvantage for learning a second language. we are over thinking it. It is really really hard. Growing up in southern California i could speak Spanish rather well, of course learning the bad words first. But when i went to school near Chicago and met people from Cuba and Puerto Rico, their dialect was a bit different and they used different words for example "clase" meaning "class in school" they were meaning it like "she was bitchy" I think they call it "spanglish"



Personally if we don't get some jobs back in the US we might be learning the 3rd language of Mandarin

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