abortion...for once and for all

Krista - posted on 09/04/2010

As per my other post, I am going to permanently lock this thread. This is just too acrimonious a topic, and it just goes around and around with nothing being accomplished.

Thank you.

Katherine - posted on 09/04/2010

"SO we are not committing murder because GOD already knew that the fetus would NOT survive."

Umm there is something called free will. He did not CHOOSE for us to have an abortion, we/you chose that.

Michelle - posted on 09/04/2010

So for all of the pro life moms, what do you suggest we do with the plethora of unwanted babies once you abolish abortion? How do you suggest each country feed, cloth, support, and raise these unwanted children?

I think my point is being missed when I say a fetus is nothing more than a parasite. It was previously mentioned that we are playing God, when we abort a fetus, that is the standing for most who are pro life. That it is murder. The definition of murder according to princeton.edu is murder, slaying, execution (unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being) according to the same website... Life is (the period between birth and the present time). So again life being at conception, by definition is NOT possible. A fetus doesn't have the ability to breath on its own without medical assistance at 25 weeks or even 30 weeks. If we are playing God by aborting babies, then we are playing God by saving them. Back when the damn bible was written if a woman gave birth to a fetus at 20 weeks the baby would not survive, that was GOD'S will. If a woman gave birth at 30 weeks again that was GOD'S will and the baby didn't survive. It has only been within the last 100 years (LESS) that babies have been able to survive outside of the womb at 30 weeks or even 36 weeks. SO in fact when we have a team of medical professionals step in to save a babies life we are in turn PLAYING God. When we decide to save a life that would have never lived because of SCIENCE, we are playing God.

All the pro-lifers can argue the whole murder thing till they are blue in the face. The facts remain the same. God didn't tell us we could pick and choose who to save and who to let die. So when we save a fetus that GOD wanted to die it is no different than having an abortion. For that matter for all those religous people, GOD knows what is in our hearts before we do. He knows when a woman gets pregnant that the baby will live or die. Before we do. It is their destiny. It is written in the book of life.... SO we are not committing murder because GOD already knew that the fetus would NOT survive.

Katherine - posted on 09/04/2010

Oh. That's the only thing I believe. Life begins at conception. Nothing else.pertaining to God. Actually that staement had nothing to do with God on my end.

Jaime - posted on 09/04/2010

And don't even get me started on the "life begins at conception" and "abortion is murder" nonsense.

Jaime - posted on 09/04/2010

Sorry Katherine, I was a few days too late with my spiel about God but about page 11 is where it starts with the God speak. Something about pro-choicers teaching their kids to hate God and not live a good life. It has trickled through in most of the conversation afterward about what God has given us and how we are to use what he has given us and blah, blah, and on and on and GAH!

Katherine - posted on 09/04/2010

Wait......who's talking about God?

Jaime - posted on 09/04/2010

Okay, I DO love a good abortion debate, but in all honesty as much as I can appreciate someone's pro-life viewpoint, I just can't take it seriously when it's connected to God and all the Bible bullshit. Give me YOUR opinion, give me YOUR views, give me YOUR reasons...but don't sit at your computer and tell me that abortion is wrong because God said so. If you keep telling me that, then I'm just going to keep telling you that God can shove his opinion up his holy ass! Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists and that the Bible is a real, factual account of the period in which it was written and THEN we'll talk....but keep comin' at this conversation with all this biblical jargon and my atheist jargon is gonna keep kicking the dogma out of you!

Rosie - posted on 09/04/2010

a newborn baby CAN live without it's mother. walk away from your baby, still living. mother dies, baby still lives, it can be taken care of by it's father, or any other human being for that matter. take a 12 week old fetus out of the mother and see how long it "lives".

Katherine - posted on 09/04/2010

From an empirical standpoint life begins at the moment of conception does it not?
Yes, I am pro-life and one of the things I always seem to argue is no, the "fetus" cannot live outside of the body on it's own at 12 weeks or 19 weeks, but if you apply that same thought process to a newborn, that newborn cannot live outside the body either withou the help of the mother. Am I making sense? Does it make it any less viable?
I'm on the fence about what to do if the mother is in danger of losing her life. Who's life is more important? This is such a difficult subject to argue IMO.
Some newborns need medical intervention when born, is it still a parasite then?

Michelle - posted on 09/03/2010

Okay I haven't been getting updates either.. But thats okay...

Sarah- the dude you are referring was Onan. Genisis 38.. He was put to death by God. NOT because he spilled his semen on the ground, BUT because he was commanded to produce offspring FOR his brother (who killed) He didn't obey God, by helping his brother's wife produce offspring. What he did was seen as a sin against God and he was put to death...IF you are going to quote scripture and talk about God.. Please get your damn facts straight.



Second, I don't see how anyone can honestly believe that a fetus at 8 weeks is a LIFE.... It has a heartbeat, yes, but it can NOT survive outside of its incubator. Hell the sex organs are not even developed yet. It bears no resemblance to a baby and could never take a breath, no matter how many doctors tried to help. The lungs are not developed. I agree with Jenny. I am not an incubator. I have said it before and I will say it again, until such time as a baby can be born without the need for medical intervention, the fetus is nothing more than a parasite feeding off of its host (aka the woman body).

Barbara - posted on 09/03/2010

And the woman who started Planned Parenthood was raised Catholic, though I'm pretty sure she was non-practicing. I love how that means the Catholic Church started Planned Parenthood. I was raised Catholic, too. Maybe in a hundred years people will be giving them the credit for my successes, too. Hee hee.

Barbara - posted on 09/03/2010

Hey, thanks for those links, Sarah. Funnily enough they weren't that accurate. I clicked on the studies they cited in some of the articles, they were completely different than the article that cited them! Wow, whoever wrote those was really counting on the fact that people who believe this stuff don't need real evidence. For example: In your article about PP giving inaccurate medical advice, it sites a 55% increase in miscarriages after an abortion, and has a link to the study where they are supposed to have gotten that figure. I actually clicked on that study, and they changed a 5.5% into 55%. If that isn't bad enough, the 5.5% referred to the percentage of women who had abortions in their study and went on to have a miscarriage, as compared to 4.0% of women who hadn't had an abortion. So the cite you listed as proof made a 1.5% increase into a 55% increase. I'm no mathematician, but I'm thinking that's a big lie right there. That wasn't the only one, but I can't be bothered to type them all out here as it's bedtime.
As far as the pedophilia they are supposed to be supporting, that woman didn't do her job. They are mandatory reporters. I asked my mother in law, who has worked for PP for years, and she said she reported an overage person having sex with a young teen just yesterday. And they have a new rule that makes it harder for people to make mistakes like that. Anyone who is 14 or younger has to meet with a "teenager specialist" who talks with them for at least a half hour to make sure there is no abuse going on. So, if one person doesn't know how to do their job, that doesn't mean the whole organization is pro pedophilia. That is a ridiculous conclusion.

Chatty - posted on 09/03/2010

How come this thread isn't sending me email updates?

Jaime - posted on 09/03/2010

I had the arse-plucking figured out at 'the bible says'...lmfao



I'm going to hell...I know.

Jodi - posted on 09/03/2010

The youngest baby to EVER survive is after 21 weeks, 6 days gestation, so I think someone is plucking figures out of their arse, especially with the claim "a lot of babies can survive". At 23 weeks, the survival rate is only 16% (I wouldn't call that "a lot of babies"), and that is ONLY with medical intervention (so I guess it depends on how you manipulate the words of your bible as to whether yours would be amongst the 16%).

Rosie - posted on 09/03/2010

so let me get this straight. abortion is murder, but killing the mother by refusing medical treatment for her condition and killing her isn't murder??? interesting.
and no there havn't been any babies that have lived at 20 weeks, i'm pretty sure that there's only been a few that have at 22 weeks.

Jaime - posted on 09/03/2010

Abortion is wrong
Withdrawl is wrong
Pregnancy is the right choice
Every fertilized egg has the right to life
I am a lunatic

Only one of the above statements is true...take your time, there will be no re-tests.

Jodi - posted on 09/03/2010

"I believe that all abortions are wrong, and pulling out(withdrawal) is wrong...."

Really? So I am assuming you have lots of children, are unmarried, or your husband goes without (and if it is the latter, I am pretty sure there is still a lot of wasted sperm....)

And here you are criticising the Catholics. Even the Catholic Church is ok with withdrawal!!

Jodi - posted on 09/03/2010

"You know a lot of babies can live even if born at 20 weeks"

Bullshit. You show me ONE example of a baby born at 20 weeks that survived. it has never happened.

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

I agree that where possible both lives should be saved, but sometimes it is just not possible. So whose life takes precedence, I think the mums must because she can survive on her own without major medical intervention.

I understand it's just your view I am just trying to understand where it is you are coming from.

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Girl, its just my personal belief, but each person is different. I think every measure should be taken to save both lives.

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

I thought it was about 21+ weeks I haven't heard a baby surviving before just under 22 weeks, so what about before 21 weeks? The baby cannot survive outside the womb so woul dit still be justifiable to allow the mothers life to end?

Also my concern with allowing the mother to die would be that there would be a baby left potentially parentless to add to the already pressured system ( worst case senario, the father was absent and the mum had no surving family). Would it not have been more humane to abort the fetus?

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

because every sperm is alive and therefore, withdrawal is murder ;)

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

hmm I think that terminating the pregnancy even if the mom is in danger is wrong. You know a lot of babies can live even if born at 20 weeks

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

Ok I believe (and have learnt) that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and should only be a guide for our behaviours. It has been shown that many aspects of the Bible contradict each other as they were written by different men with different perspectives and biases etc. So I have always been taught from my church that contraception is not wrong or a sin.

So back to abortion...in your opinion is abortion acceptable (not right) if the mothers life will terminate due to the pregnancy?

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

I have personally used the withdrawal method, but biblically it is wrong. Some dude in the Bible did it and God killed him....If you want to get real conservative about it preventing pregancy at all is considered wrong, but i obviously only have three kids so lol

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

Even if the mothers life will be lost by continuing the pregnancy?

Why is withdrawal wrong?

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

I believe that all abortions are wrong, and pulling out(withdrawal) is wrong....

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

So are there any exceptions to the 'rule' then Sarah or are all abortions completely wrong? If you read my previous posts you will see that I believe that abortion is killing babies BUT I do have issues I am NOT pro-choice although I am not fully pro-life (that saves you looking back). I am NOT having a go at you so chill your beans I genuinely want to know, I am following this debate with interest as I cannot currently argue strongly for either side (although I certainly lean towards pro-life).

Yes historically (and currently) there are Catholics that are doing 'bad' things but so are other Christian denominations and Muslim etcthat are doing/ have done 'bad' things. You cannot just declare that a whole group of people are bad/ do bad things because of a few bad people or deeds; everyone makes mistakes it is not for us to judge them God will judge them at the end. Now back to topic!

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Who are you to spew the stuff you do, Toni??? I was making an observation that more married women in america are getting abortions then anyone else. And there are some catholics that are decent they just don't know the truth about the history of the catholic church. Catholics used to burn christians at the stake. So whats up? Why did they torture christians?

Toni - posted on 09/03/2010

"I am concerned about married women who have a husband, money, and way to take care of a child and still go get abortions. That is what i call crazy."

So by this logic Sarah if a woman is not married or is widowed or has no money or is not able to look after the child is abortion acceptable? Or is it still completely and unquestionable wrong? Out of interest are there any exceptions to the 'rule' for you or are all abortions wrong regardless of the situation?

Oh and BTW Catholics ARE Christians and they do not worship satan. Who are you to decide who 'true' Christians are?

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Laura, i think you are off your meds sweetie.....lol Ok well if sperm fits into this thread then i think that God's allowed in here too (regardless of what you think) God is the creator of life and he is in the baby making bussiness. Heck, he created you......wow

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

this is a thread about abortion...I think sperm is relevant...are you OK?

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Laura, if you want to bring sex into political debating moms....please tell me how sperm and sex belongs here???? I mean religion seems a lot more political in nature then a mans sperm

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

I didn't say it was a baby...I said it was alive...and it is.

and your assumption "If we were all like you there would be no kids, or human life on earth" is ludicrous

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

back to the subject of abortion.....the catholic church started planned parenthood ....interesting

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

My assumptions have very credible backing my dear, and as for them being ludicrous i think that you saying sperm is a living, breathing baby is a bit funny lol

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

nope...if everyone were like me there would be 2 children for every family...I keep responding to you because your assumptions are ludicrous

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Laura, why is it that you refuse for me to make a point or comment...and basically tell me to take a hike????If we were all like you there would be no kids, or human life on earth lol I am not a murder, and i thought name calling was against the "rules" you better go back and read the guidelines

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

clearly because I don't agree...I was just pointing out that your argument could be taken even further to justify you being a murderer too (if you are not Michelle Duggar)

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Then why don't you have 30 kids Laura???? Krista, I bet you considered your baby at eight weeks in the womb to be a baby

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

every egg is also a living being unto it's own...refusing to fertilize it is murder

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

Krista - posted on 09/03/2010

Ultimately what you choose to do within the law is your choice, but think about the kids you have now...what if you had aborted them??? You wouldn't have the blessing that you do

And if I hadn't been using birth control all these years, I'd probably have a dozen such "blessings". What on earth is your point?

And did I say that something with a beating heart was not a life? No, I did not. I believe that life begins at conception and that yes, abortion is the ending of a life. But do I believe that killing an 8-week embryo is the same thing as killing an 8-week old baby? No, I do not. There is a HUGE neurological difference between the two.

I mean heck, sperm is life! It's alive, isn't it? Do you freak out and cry about every tiny, living, helpless little sperm that dies on your bedsheets?

Isobel - posted on 09/03/2010

well...this is a first...a thread about abortion being high jacked for another subject.

why are we arguing religion in a political debating group again???????

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Why are you defending catholics? I thought you didn't like "religion" lol

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010

Rosie - posted on 09/03/2010

i love how "christians" always point out whose a real christian or not. *eye roll* you all follow jesus christ, and believe he is gods son and was sent to die for your sins right? maybe if you did YOUR research on the catholic church the first word that comes up everytime is christian.



and as for worshipping mary

Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.



Does the Bible Say to Honor Mary?

Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women” and Mary acknowledges this blessing by saying “all generations shall call me blessed” (Luke 1:48).



Both women realized that Mary was uniquely blessed because she was entrusted with the honor of carrying God-in-human-form, Jesus Christ, in her womb. She alone was chosen for the highest honor in the history of the world. Catholics understand that if she is special enough for God to honor her, then she is certainly special enough for humankind to honor her too.

and as for satan worshipping i have never know a catholic to worship satan, and i couldn't find any information on what you were talking about when i googled it. ask any catholic and they'll tell you you're crazy for suggesting it.you really are one big conpiracy theorist aren't you?

Sarah - posted on 09/03/2010