Another strike against Homosexuality being a choice

Isobel - posted on 09/13/2009

OK...let's all take a deep breath (myself included)

I guess our frustration comes from our personal knowledge (whether because of ourselves or people we know and love) that people in the LGBT community are just the same as us in every way.

I could understand your position IF their lifestyle had absolutely any affect on your life whatsoever. it doesn't...what on earth could it hurt you for them to have rights?

Some of you have as much as admitted that they are born that way and just shouldn't act on it...could you imagine if somebody told you that you were not allowed to seek a healthy loving relationship and be married?

Laura - posted on 09/13/2009

Well then Jenny you will have to be talking about yourself then if you go by that definition of a bigot. One who is strongly partial to one's own group..Canadian bi/gay/lesbian,religion..science proves everything and politics...American conservatives are racists bigots or whacked out Christians. It's pretty safe bet that one of these statements will eventually come from you, maybe not in the same words but the general idea is there. As for you calling me a bigot, I really don't care. Your opinion of me is not relevant. Personally I think your calling me a bigot in this instance says more about you than it does of me. I simply took the stretch that you want to make with the worm thing and stretched it a little further, added some dark sarcastic humor about how our society corrupts things even well intentioned science. I mistakingly thought you might like someone agreeing with what you said somewhere else. guess I learned my lesson...don't have to go outside to be hit with lightening. So, I will keep the humor out of it, refrain from posting on this thread anymore. Everyone happy now?

Jenny - posted on 09/13/2009

Quoting Laura:

bigot: one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Please explain to me how using the correct term is hurtful...and I respectfully disagree that laughing directly AT somebody is harmless fun

I will call it what it is too. Some posters are DEMONSTRATING bigoted behaviour. That is not an insult or personal attack. It is correct terminolgy for how they are acting and what they are posting. There is evidence showing bigoted behaviour and if they don't want to be called bigots, then they need to stop acting like bigots. Calling a spade a spade here.

Jenny - posted on 09/13/2009

Quoting Laura:

bigot: one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Please explain to me how using the correct term is hurtful...and I respectfully disagree that laughing directly AT somebody is harmless fun

I will call it what it is too. Some posters are DEMONSTRATING bigoted behaviour. That is not an insult or personal attack. It is correct terminolgy for how they are acting and what they are posting. There is evidence showing bigoted behaviour and if they don't want to be called bigots, then they need to stop acting like bigots. Calling a spade a spade here.

Isobel - posted on 09/13/2009

bigot: one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Please explain to me how using the correct term is hurtful...and I respectfully disagree that laughing directly AT somebody is harmless fun

Isobel - posted on 09/13/2009

Soooooo, people are allowed to tell me (on numerous threads) that I am going to hell, laugh at my thoughts "until they pee their pants" but calling somebody who unfairly judges a group of people just for being who they are a bigot is against the rules...

I'll try to keep that in mind...beating on liberal- perfectly fine...calling a spade a spade or questioning the presence of your almighty NOT

got it!

Amie - posted on 09/13/2009

Brenda I did read that lengthy post. Whine, whine and whine some more. Then switch to being "straight" because it's easier. Gimme a break.

I know a gay man who was up against just as much opposition. He didn't cop out and go "straight" because it was easier.

Brenda - posted on 09/13/2009

I highly doubt you read any of my more lengthy posts, including the one with the personal experience of a man who is an ex-gay in the link I provided. So, how are you qualified to call my last post "baloney"? Real intelligent.

Jenny - posted on 09/13/2009

Pure baloney, thanks for sharing.

Brenda - posted on 09/13/2009

I got this in my email a few months ago from Family Watch International.

"I am pleased to announce that the U.S.-based National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) has just released its long-awaited comprehensive review of over 125 years of scientific research on homosexuality. This groundbreaking report, “What Research Shows,” dispels the myths that are commonly used to promote the legalization of same-sex marriage and the mainstreaming of homosexuality throughout society and in the public schools by force of law.
NARTH is a professional association of scientists and mental health professionals whose stated mission is to conduct and disseminate scientific research on homosexuality, promote effective treatment, and to protect the right of individuals with unwanted same-sex attraction to receive effective care. While one might think that such a mission would be viewed as both commendable and relatively non-controversial, the reality is just the opposite.
Homosexual activists try to suppress research on same-sex attraction because one of the pillars of homosexual advocacy is the falsehood that homosexuals are “born that way” and cannot change their orientation. Since the NARTH report proves that homosexuality can be changed through therapy in the same way conditions like alcoholism and other addictions can be changed, the whole case for mainstreaming homosexuality into society crumbles. Another myth the NARTH report disproves is that therapy to help people with unwanted same-sex attraction is ineffective and even harmful.
The extensive research and clinical experience reviewed by NARTH makes it clear even to a layman that these claims are false.
Homosexual activists spread these misconceptions about homosexuality and even persecute their own who seek treatment because they know that public opinion polls show that people who believe homosexuals are born that way are more likely to support the homosexual agenda. NARTH is one of the very few credible, professional organizations anywhere in the world that is successfully challenging this propaganda.
Specifically, the NARTH report substantiates the following conclusions:
1. There is substantial evidence that sexual orientation may be changed through reorientation therapy.
“Treatment success for clients seeking to change unwanted homosexuality and develop their heterosexual potential has been documented in the professional and research literature since the late 19th century. ...125 years of clinical and scientific reports which document those professionally-assisted and other attempts at volitional change from homosexuality toward heterosexuality has been successful for many and that such change continues to be possible for those who are motivated to try.”
2. Efforts to change sexual orientation have not been shown to be consistently harmful or to regularly lead to greater self-hatred, depression, and other self-destructive behaviors.
“We acknowledge that change in sexual orientation may be difficult to attain. As with other difficult challenges and behavioral patterns—such as low-self-esteem, abuse of alcohol, social phobias, eating disorders, or borderline personality disorder, as well as sexual compulsions and addictions—change through therapy does not come easily.”
“We conclude that the documented benefits of reorientation therapy—and the lack of its documented general harmfulness—support its continued availability to clients who exercise their right of therapeutic autonomy and self-determination through ethically informed consent.”
The NARTH report warns that “The limited body of clinical reports that claim that harm is possible—if not probable— if a person simply attempts to change typically were written by gay activist professionals.”
3. There is significantly greater medical, psychological, and relational pathology in the homosexual population than the general population.
“Researchers have shown that medical, psychological and relationship pathology within the homosexual community is more prevalent than within the general population. …In some cases, homosexual men are at greater risk than homosexual women and heterosexual men, while in other cases homosexual women are more at risk than homosexual men and heterosexual women. …Overall, many of these problematic behaviors and psychological dysfunctions are experienced among homosexuals at about three times the prevalence found in the general population—and sometimes much more. …We believe that no other group of comparable size in society experiences such intense and widespread pathology.”
You can read NARTH’s executive summary of the report on our Web site here.
Good public policy cannot be based on lies, misconceptions and fallacies. That is why it is essential that we do all we can to spread the information in the NARTH report far and wide, but especially that we get it into the hands of legislators and policymakers around the world. Because of a political agenda, thousands of people around the world with unwanted same sex-attraction are being denied the help and the basic facts about their affliction.
In light of the clear health problems the report documents, homosexual activists are putting many lives at even greater risk by suppressing the truth about unwanted same-sex attraction. We hope you will join us in spreading this information far and wide.
Sincerely,

Sharon Slater
President"

www.familywatchinternational.org

Jenny - posted on 09/13/2009

Loves us all hey? Including those natural born homosexuals she created? Sorry off topic.



I'll debate the fairy tale book in another thread but I'm not pursuing it here =) I'm trying to keep this on topic.

Krista - posted on 09/13/2009

Quoting Christa:

IF they find it I will eat my words, but I'm confident that they won't. I believe God would not design people who are forced into a sinful existence. It goes against everything he has set in place.

So, all the murderers and pedophiles and robbers are not created by God?  God also told us that incest was wrong.  But, being that there was only one woman ever created, that would be a contradiction, right?

Krista - posted on 09/13/2009

Quoting Brenda:

"Though worms and humans share much of the same dna" - so now we are worms? Oh My Word! Give me a break. This is pop science and the research is not reliable. Seriously?

As opposed to the "research" that goes into people claiming that gays choose which sex they are attracted to?

Jenny - posted on 09/13/2009

Quoting Christa:

Actually Mary, there are studies done all the time to back up both sides of the arguments. Like most studies you can choose which one's you choose to believe.

Wrong, science is not a belief system. The hypothesis backed up with sound facts is the truth, not which one you believe to be true.

ME - posted on 09/13/2009

I've posted the evidence before (not 100%, but very clear evidence in favor of the "born gay" hypothesis). There was a twin study done in Europe a few years back that PROVES that a large percentage of peole who identify as gay must have been born that way. That does not prove that there is NO ONE that chooses this orientation, but it certainly takes the wind out of the other side of the argument. You must have missed that scientific proof I posted...hmmm...wonder how that happened.

ME - posted on 09/13/2009

I would NEVER say that it's a flaw with god, please don't put words in my mouth. I said it's a flaw with human interpretation, either of the bible, or that the bible itself is flawed.

ME - posted on 09/13/2009

Thank you for the article Jenny! I enjoyed reading it, and I appreciate the new information.

Charlie - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

They don't choose to change their brains. They are born with the propensity. Don't you think that with the amazing thing the human body is, it is surprising that due to it's complexity there aren't more deformities that we see naturally occurrirng? It is just a little blip in their DNA. It can be corrected.

WOW !!  Deformities , are you serious ?

I honestly didnt think in this day and age i would ever hear homosexuals being called deformed , i just lost a little more faith in humanity .

Anyway back to the OP , Jenny that is an awesome piece of research you have there , not concrete but like others have said it IS a step closer to discovering more about the human brain .

As for Comparing Alcoholism to homosexuality again WOW !!

Thats comparing chalk and cheese .

. - posted on 09/12/2009

I think it's disgusting that people compare homosexuality with alcoholism, sex offenders, drug addictions etc etc.

Some people are gay by choice but there are a fair few who are actually born gay.

. - posted on 09/12/2009

Homosexuality is not an addiction, Its a way of life.

. - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Christa:

So if an alcoholic chooses not to act on their urges are they living a lie as well?

Completley different thing, Alcohol can be an addiction where homosexuality is not.

. - posted on 09/12/2009

sorry typo error, They not hey

. - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

Jenny - whether or not you want to believe it, it is a morality/religious matter. Homosexualtiy is a sin in God's eyes. And I think what Christa was trying to say was that some people have the chemical make up in their brain that makes them have a tendency to be homosexual, but some choose to act on it.

If hey don't "choose" to act on it then they are living a lie.

Laura - posted on 09/12/2009

Oh come on. Jenny, I give you compliment and you call me a bigot. I was serious when I said I agreed with what you said somewhere else and did you read my post, it was very short, it does affect me, gay family members, gay friends,...hello. Or did you see Christian and just assume? Dana, I'm just funnin', there's no win or loose in the whole gay right thing imo. Man, Saturday night is intense.

Dana - posted on 09/12/2009

Why does anyone have to "win"? Is this the problem, that someone feels they are going to "lose"?

Laura - posted on 09/12/2009

Okay, then who wins. Do the Christians win and they get to turn everyone gay into hetros or do the gays win and they can turn any hetro into gay. Or is it going to be the fad in year 2125, I can see the ad now "Tired of being gay or hetro, tired of the same or opposite sex but aren't naturally capable of going the other way. Well let us change your mind for you now. It's as big as plastic surgery was in the 21st century! Sexual preference surgery, change your mind and be happy!" I'm sorry, this is probably inappropriate and offending someone but I don't get the point. You know my stance as a Christian. I'm a fence sitter on gay rights for marriage because I have family members and friends that are gay and in wonderful monagamous(sp. Sat. nite with 1 beer, can you tell) relationships, it would be nice if they could legally support each other. I think maybe if it was made just a legal partnership and they could make a whole new rainbow ceremony all there own it might go down easier (not). In fact Jenny I think you wrote something along those lines somewhere and I remember thinking (Lord help me now) that would be an acceptable compromise for me personally. Great, now I can't go outside, I'll be struck down with lightening(hahaha sarcasm). Anyhow this worm thing is entertaining at best for me. Go ahead and explore all the possibilities though.

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

That don't all do. Some are successfully treated because they want to be treated. Yes it's not the 'easy way out' and it is hard work, but there are success stories.

http://www.pfox.org/what_i_know.html

Jenny - posted on 09/12/2009

I don't see homosexuality as a deformity, I see it as a natural population control mechanism. There are plenty of natrual occuring deformities though so that is a moot point.

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

They don't choose to change their brains. They are born with the propensity. Don't you think that with the amazing thing the human body is, it is surprising that due to it's complexity there aren't more deformities that we see naturally occurrirng? It is just a little blip in their DNA. It can be corrected.

Jenny - posted on 09/12/2009

They are the married men found in your local washroom and talking on the cyber networks. You can not repress it.

Dana - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

Jenny - whether or not you want to believe it, it is a morality/religious matter. Homosexualtiy is a sin in God's eyes. And I think what Christa was trying to say was that some people have the chemical make up in their brain that makes them have a tendency to be homosexual, but some choose to act on it.

Brenda - whether or not you want to believe it, it isn't a morality/religious matter for those who don't believe. 

I'd also like to know, who are these gay people that don't act on it?  Seems to me they All eventually do.

Jenny - posted on 09/12/2009

People do not choose to change their brains to be homosexuals, they ARE homosexuals because their brains make them that way. If you don't comprehend that, this is not the thread for you. It's time to stop using the story book to defend your bigotry. These are human beings we are talking about. Grow up.

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

Jenny - whether or not you want to believe it, it is a morality/religious matter. Homosexualtiy is a sin in God's eyes. And I think what Christa was trying to say was that some people have the chemical make up in their brain that makes them have a tendency to be homosexual, but some choose to act on it.

Dana - posted on 09/12/2009

Jenny, I think it's wonderful. Thank you for posting it. The more we know and understand, I pray the faster this argument will end.

Jenny - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

Quoting Jenny:

Quoting Brenda:

My beginnings started in heaven. Then I was born to goodly parents. I did not 'evolve' from apes or any other creature.

This is not a story book thread. This is a science thread.

You have no proof that I'm wrong.

Please refer to original post. This is not a bible or morality thread.

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Jenny:

Quoting Brenda:

My beginnings started in heaven. Then I was born to goodly parents. I did not 'evolve' from apes or any other creature.

This is not a story book thread. This is a science thread.

You have no proof that I'm wrong.

Amie - posted on 09/12/2009

Interesting article Jenny. I will admit it will be a long road before any concrete evidence is given one way or the other though.

As in all things though, science is continually advancing and maybe, just maybe, in our life time we will get an answer. If not, that's ok. My kids, grand kids, great grand kids, will have the answer.

Amie - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

"Though worms and humans share much of the same dna" - so now we are worms? Oh My Word! Give me a break. This is pop science and the research is not reliable. Seriously?

We do not have the exact same DNA because we are not the same. I should not have to point out something so obvious.

Science is years away from proving one way or the other though. I will admit that.

Jenny - posted on 09/12/2009

Quoting Brenda:

My beginnings started in heaven. Then I was born to goodly parents. I did not 'evolve' from apes or any other creature.

This is not a story book thread. This is a science thread.

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

My beginnings started in heaven. Then I was born to goodly parents. I did not 'evolve' from apes or any other creature.

Isobel - posted on 09/12/2009

Everything starts somewhere :)

Brenda - posted on 09/12/2009

"Though worms and humans share much of the same dna" - so now we are worms? Oh My Word! Give me a break. This is pop science and the research is not reliable. Seriously?

Isobel - posted on 09/12/2009

That's pretty cool, I find it amazing that people are still ignorant enough to not only believe the things they do, but to spout off their ignorance and try to force their beliefs on other people and how they live their lives...this thread is going to get very interesting very quickly... ;)