Another thought from a founding father...

ME - posted on 10/02/2009 ( 87 moms have responded )

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The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.



- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

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ME - posted on 10/04/2009

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Natalie, every time human rights becomes an issue in the US, the groups that appose the expansion of those rights use "tradition," "morality," or "protecteing the children" as reasons NOT to give a small group of people equal rights. This eventually fails, and rights for all people expand, but until enough open-minded people who are fully educated on or aware of all the FACTS join the voting pool, the rest of us will have to keep supporting our friends and loved ones, and fighting for their equality!

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



I do think it is unnatural for people to be confused about which sex they want to have sex with.  I cannot even fathom a girl not being able to decide if she wants to fist or be fisted by another girl...or to give oral sex to another girl.






I cannot fathom a guy not being able to decide if he wants to give it or take it up the ass.  Nope...I guess he can stick something up his butt...I dunno.






I find it disturbing that you have boiled down homosexual relationships to deviant sexual behaviors. When a man and woman are in love and in a relationship and committed to each other - they are in a loving, caring and supportive relationship. But when a woman is in a relationship with a woman you use fisting as an example or a man with a man you say give it or take it up the ass.



I dunno about the rest of you but there hasn't been a single time in any of my relationships - with men or women, on any level - that I have ever even remotely thought of FISTING as an option.



I also doubt any of you - in loving caring and supportive relationship - think of your relationships strictly on a sexual needs basis. When you're discussing your family and your love and your relationships I highly doubt you allow the base of your relationship to be demeaned in the way that you demean the legitimate relationships of a homosexual couple by simply referring to their relationship as the need to be fisted or have something stuck in their butt.

Jeannette - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jo:




Quoting Jeannette:
Anyway, I think it would be safer for them to experiment with the same sex in that no pregnancies will be incurred, however, I don't think they are emotionally ready for any kind of sex. IMHO as their mother, I talk to them regularly...and yeah, Jo, I come across as crass as it has been crassly expressed to me...HOWEVER, what I say HERE is different than how I'd address my children. I have got to make it clear I LOVE MY KIDS UNCONDITIONALLY , I know what conditional love feels like, and I couldn't imagine setting those limitations on my precious kids. That is why we are so close, because I love them even when they think they are telling me something terrible they did....I wouldn't hurt them to make myself feel righteous.




I honestly 100% truly mean this will be my last post.

I just wanted to say Jeannette - I absolutely 100% believe this of you, when you say this.

What scares me is that there is even just ONE too many people who do not think the same that you do and that there is even just ONE child that feels that their parents will not love them unconditionally like you do yours - simply because they are gay.

It is THAT feeling of rejection, fear of having the very people who brought them into this world to love them unconditionally and take care of them and nurture them and teach them are the very people who will cast them aside and leave them to go through life alone, scared and rejected - simply because they were born the way they were and THOSE feelings are the feelings that lead to teenagers being CONFUSED.

Not confused about whether they want to be with a man or a woman but confused that they are being told EVERYDAY that people who feel the way they are feeling are sinners and bad people and not worth rights, not worth respect, not worth consideration, not worth the common courtesy (that is being thrown away on an everyday occurance anyways - whole other topic) they are confused as to why God would make them feel these feelings when God is telling them that those feelings are so wrong that they are damned for it by their own family, the family that is meant to love them unconditionally.

The confusion is not in the act of feeling it is in the reaction of having those feelings. And the people who are constantly focusing on the promiscious homosexuals as being the 'model' in which they figure homosexuality is because that's how it is 'in hollywood' - that is about as realistic as saying Pamela Anderson and Jenna Jameson are the perfect example of how a blond white woman should be. And, I think, we all can agree that is bogus.


Okay, I am replying to you, because you are full of shit. you are gonna reply! lol!



Anyway, when I was talking to those teens I mentioned earlier, I included my kids.  I even reminded them, if you are gay, I absolutely still adore your crazy ass!  (Hey, they're teens, and we acknowledge our craziness)   One of the teens, a boy, told his mom he was gay, but not his dad.  I didn't know how to help him.  He is the one who performs the b js for an older classmate...I think he is looking for acceptance...how do I tell him, tell your dad, he will still love you?....because I really don't know.



My husband is not crazy about the idea of having a gay child, however, even he (and you all will have to believe me when I say this is big) has said he would never cast out any of his children because of what he felt was right for him.  I even told him that I would welcome partners in the house with open arms, he said he would accept their partners as well. Which is good for him, because I did tell him that if he didn't he could go out to eat when they are over for dinner.  He actually appreciates the love and openness I/we share with the kids.   I think it opened the doors to my kids feeling free enough to tell me some of the stuff they have told me so far.  No one has had sex, but they've tried crap!  Anyway, I always give my thoughts, tell them how I think they could help themselves, or their friends in some cases, and always confess that I still love them.  I can't help it!  Note...they tell me all the things they are doing, not Duke, which I have pointed out to him...he thinkd its because I naturally talk more...thppppppbbbbppp!



 

Jeannette - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jo:



Quoting Jeannette:




I do think it is unnatural for people to be confused about which sex they want to have sex with.  I cannot even fathom a girl not being able to decide if she wants to fist or be fisted by another girl...or to give oral sex to another girl.








I cannot fathom a guy not being able to decide if he wants to give it or take it up the ass.  Nope...I guess he can stick something up his butt...I dunno.










I find it disturbing that you have boiled down homosexual relationships to deviant sexual behaviors. When a man and woman are in love and in a relationship and committed to each other - they are in a loving, caring and supportive relationship. But when a woman is in a relationship with a woman you use fisting as an example or a man with a man you say give it or take it up the ass.






I dunno about the rest of you but there hasn't been a single time in any of my relationships - with men or women, on any level - that I have ever even remotely thought of FISTING as an option.






I also doubt any of you - in loving caring and supportive relationship - think of your relationships strictly on a sexual needs basis. When you're discussing your family and your love and your relationships I highly doubt you allow the base of your relationship to be demeaned in the way that you demean the legitimate relationships of a homosexual couple by simply referring to their relationship as the need to be fisted or have something stuck in their butt.





You know, Jo, I am in the middle of my post to you, you make another post, I have to go read it...and now I have to start all over.



First, homosexual sex is deviating form the norm.  To have homosexual sex you kinda have to get creative.  I actually saw the reference to fisting in the movie Chasing Amy.  That was my first indication as to how lesbians could even try to have any kind of intercourse.  As for how gay men have sex, well, some of them like to talk about it. 



Here, let me put it differently....a lesbian isn't going to take a penis up her vagina the way a hetero would.  I can be crude and crass Jo, I've never hidden that. 



I don't know how many homosexual males are actually in loving caring monogomous relationships.  Many of them have said that they like having sexual relations with men because men will do everything a woman won't.  I knew a gay couple (Jeff and Gay) yes, that is their names...anyway, they were together as a "couple" for 16 years.  They went to orgies, swing parties, had sex with men and women...anyone who was a willing participant.  They liked that they could do this.



I will have to think of the two authors, who I don't feel like looking up, I am talking in chat with an old friend...anyway, both gay men, both really think the way homosexual men are being portrayed in Hollywood is a complete fallacy.  Both believe most gay men are in it for the pure sexual pleasure...instant gratification...and have no clue why they are being portrayed as being emotional.  They have sex with multiple partners within the gay community.



I still think that homosexual people should have the right to get married.  Quite frankly, I don't care what people do behind closed doors...we all have our things we do.  I believe that even though I've read accounts of gay lifestyles and how they are conducted, there are men who want to be lifelong partners with other men.  Same for women.

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Just a side note - not directed to anyone in particular - just a clarifying thought about being bi-sexual, it means that you are attracted to both sexes. It does NOT mean that you wake up every morning and flip a coin "Heads I get tail. Tails I get head." I think it would be wise that the people who believe otherwise, should remove their heads from their tails and at least attempt to grasp that concept.

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Jeannette - posted on 10/07/2009

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Quoting Jo:

My eyes are almost brown I'm so full of shit !! About not posting anyways hehe this forum worries me - too much many variables too turn too many things into arguments! Anywhooo.....

I think it's awesome that you have that relationship with your kids. I have that relationshup with my mom, and I hope and will try my hardest to make sure my son has that relationship with me and his dad too.

It still leaves many children out there who do not have those relationships or anything even remotely like it in family let alone a family friend, someone they can trust to get the support they need to be happy.

But the gay people I do know, they're all good people - maybe because I only keep good people in my life and close to me - but they want what everyone else has too. Love.

Education is key. Information is key. For everyone.


The gay people I personally know, are mostly teenagers, honestly...and I think they are great.  They come over, hog the XBOX, eat my food! lol!  But they are good people.



There are two that I don't see, but I wish I did.  One is a first cousin, who is just afraid of how the family will react, even though I've asked his sister to let him know I still love him.  Another is a distant cousin - like 6th I think - I saw him all the time when I was a kid, as my grandparents usually fed him and his sister.  He didn't "come out" until after both of his parents died, but it was obvious to us.  His brothers told him to never show his face in this little podunk town again.  He doesn't.  He really is an awesome Christian...I don't care that he is "sinning" we are all sinners. He is one of the most gracious and thoughtful and helpful people I have ever encountered.  I think he took the lead from my grandparents...they showed him that love and acceptance and how to help others, that is how he is.  I feel so bad for him.  I had his neice babysitting my kids.  She didn't really remember him because he was outcast while she was young, but I told her all of the wonderful things about David.  The next time she was supposed to babysit, she called in the afternoon and told me that she couldn't watch my kids anymore.  She still lived with her parents. I was soooo pissed because she left me hanging!  I had to leave work because my kids didn't have  a way in the house!  THAT is deplorable!

Johnny - posted on 10/06/2009

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I loved my Cabbage Patch dolls. They all had "southern"names, like old time preachers or something. Too funny. Faye Thelma, Heloise Theola, and Owen Clark. They went to grade 3 in my basement every afternoon.

My daughter got one of the 25th anniversary dolls for her 1st b-day from my girlfriend. Shirley Deidre has joined our little Cabbage Patch club. She won't be getting out of the box for several years though.

No Bratz dolls for us, ever. They are sooo inappropriate! My niece has a huge collection of them and they've been such a good influence in her life *dripping with sarcasm*.

Traci - posted on 10/06/2009

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Oh yeah, gotta love the Cabbage Patches! I had one growing up and I was SO glad that they came back when I had kids, my daughter's got one with red hair and brown eyes...just like her! I love that they are bringing back all the toys from when we were kids....Strawberry Shortcake, Care Bears, Smurfs, My Little Pony, Transformers, and now GI Joe. Those are the toys I steer my kids to....when I was little my parents couldn't afford to get me as much, so now I get to live vicariously through my kids. Love it.

Charlie - posted on 10/06/2009

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I lOVE cabbage patch dolls , mine was Willamina she had her own passport and birth certificate with my name on it as the adoptive parent , her passport was full as i traveled a lot as a child and she would get it stamped every country i had been .

Some old lady stole her !! i cried and cried i was so sad , i miss her .

?? - posted on 10/06/2009

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At least Cabbage Patch dolls are getting to be more affordable than they were when I was lil - I had to ask, plead, beg and work for mom for a Cabbage Patch doll when I was little and I got them for my birthday and Christmas' (I got spoiled from family members and now own a pretty big collection of CPDs), those are quality dolls.

Isobel - posted on 10/05/2009

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OK now we've gotten seriously off topic. But...my SIL gave my daughter a "sleepover Bratz baby"...it was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen...it had the "trout pout" and was dressed in a camisole and french-cut panties...but with the body of a two year old ARGH why on earth would anybody make (or buy for that matter) something like that?

Traci - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



Quoting Jenny:

I completely agree that I do not want my children experimenting sexually at a young age and do get your point about bisexuality (women especially) being glamorized in the media these days. It annoys me immensly. I'm doing my best to raise a tom boy like I was. Media is severly restricted at my house and Bratz are completey banned for starters. We're hoping she turns out to be a skater chick cause at least they wear baggy clothes lol.






OMG! Bratz were completely banned in our house...my MIL bought one, and when Lex wasn't looking..in the trash!  Both of my daughters are wanna be sk8ters, they just started in the past year, and love sk8ter boyz!  However, they like the skinny jeans, lol!  We were even checkin out a group on youtube called audio push...black sk8ters who rap...totally different, but Lex liked them!





Another agreement!  No Bratz in my home, either.  They dress like hoochies, wear too much makeup, and have the plastic surgery "trout pout."  Hoochie dolls, not in my home!!!  So glad to see them being taken off the shelves in the past two years! :)

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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My eyes are almost brown I'm so full of shit !! About not posting anyways hehe this forum worries me - too much many variables too turn too many things into arguments! Anywhooo.....



I think it's awesome that you have that relationship with your kids. I have that relationshup with my mom, and I hope and will try my hardest to make sure my son has that relationship with me and his dad too.



It still leaves many children out there who do not have those relationships or anything even remotely like it in family let alone a family friend, someone they can trust to get the support they need to be happy.



But the gay people I do know, they're all good people - maybe because I only keep good people in my life and close to me - but they want what everyone else has too. Love.



Education is key. Information is key. For everyone.

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Okay, I might post again and this probably won't be my last post hehe

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:

Anyway, I think it would be safer for them to experiment with the same sex in that no pregnancies will be incurred, however, I don't think they are emotionally ready for any kind of sex. IMHO as their mother, I talk to them regularly...and yeah, Jo, I come across as crass as it has been crassly expressed to me...HOWEVER, what I say HERE is different than how I'd address my children. I have got to make it clear I LOVE MY KIDS UNCONDITIONALLY , I know what conditional love feels like, and I couldn't imagine setting those limitations on my precious kids. That is why we are so close, because I love them even when they think they are telling me something terrible they did....I wouldn't hurt them to make myself feel righteous.





I honestly 100% truly mean this will be my last post.



I just wanted to say Jeannette - I absolutely 100% believe this of you, when you say this.



What scares me is that there is even just ONE too many people who do not think the same that you do and that there is even just ONE child that feels that their parents will not love them unconditionally like you do yours - simply because they are gay.



It is THAT feeling of rejection, fear of having the very people who brought them into this world to love them unconditionally and take care of them and nurture them and teach them are the very people who will cast them aside and leave them to go through life alone, scared and rejected - simply because they were born the way they were and THOSE feelings are the feelings that lead to teenagers being CONFUSED.



Not confused about whether they want to be with a man or a woman but confused that they are being told EVERYDAY that people who feel the way they are feeling are sinners and bad people and not worth rights, not worth respect, not worth consideration, not worth the common courtesy (that is being thrown away on an everyday occurance anyways - whole other topic) they are confused as to why God would make them feel these feelings when God is telling them that those feelings are so wrong that they are damned for it by their own family, the family that is meant to love them unconditionally.



The confusion is not in the act of feeling it is in the reaction of having those feelings. And the people who are constantly focusing on the promiscious homosexuals as being the 'model' in which they figure homosexuality is because that's how it is 'in hollywood' - that is about as realistic as saying Pamela Anderson and Jenna Jameson are the perfect example of how a blond white woman should be. And, I think, we all can agree that is bogus.

Jeannette - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jenny:

I completely agree that I do not want my children experimenting sexually at a young age and do get your point about bisexuality (women especially) being glamorized in the media these days. It annoys me immensly. I'm doing my best to raise a tom boy like I was. Media is severly restricted at my house and Bratz are completey banned for starters. We're hoping she turns out to be a skater chick cause at least they wear baggy clothes lol.



OMG! Bratz were completely banned in our house...my MIL bought one, and when Lex wasn't looking..in the trash!  Both of my daughters are wanna be sk8ters, they just started in the past year, and love sk8ter boyz!  However, they like the skinny jeans, lol!  We were even checkin out a group on youtube called audio push...black sk8ters who rap...totally different, but Lex liked them!

Jenny - posted on 10/05/2009

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I completely agree that I do not want my children experimenting sexually at a young age and do get your point about bisexuality (women especially) being glamorized in the media these days. It annoys me immensly. I'm doing my best to raise a tom boy like I was. Media is severly restricted at my house and Bratz are completey banned for starters. We're hoping she turns out to be a skater chick cause at least they wear baggy clothes lol.

Jeannette - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Laura:

most of the swingers and perverts I know are straight...I won't tell you how I know them ;P

we should get Sharon from DM over here ;)



LMAO!!  I was trying to mark this as funny like 10 times!  However, it only undoes what I do.

Dana - posted on 10/05/2009

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I have a gay uncle who has been in a relationship for many years, on one side of my family. On the other side I had another gay uncle who has now passed and was with his partner for many, many years. They were in love, they were not perverts.

Jeannette - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jenny:






Quoting Jeannette:






You know, Jo, I am in the middle of my post to you, you make another post, I have to go read it...and now I have to start all over. I hate that lol.








First, homosexual sex is deviating form the norm.  It is deviating from the norm for you. It feels perfectly normal to LBGT individuals. To have homosexual sex you kinda have to get creative. As I do with heterosexual sex.  I actually saw the reference to fisting in the movie Chasing Amy.  That was my first indication as to how lesbians could even try to have any kind of intercourse.  As for how gay men have sex, well, some of them like to talk about it. I've never even had the inclination to try it but that's just me =) Toys are wonderful thing. Aside from that sex is one part of a relationship. The intimate connection and friendship is much more important over the long term as it is with all relationships.








Here, let me put it differently....a lesbian isn't going to take a penis up her vagina the way a hetero would.  I can be crude and crass Jo, I've never hidden that. One minor detail in the grand scheme of things.








I don't know how many homosexual males are actually in loving caring monogomous relationships.  Many of them have said that they like having sexual relations with men because men will do everything a woman won't.  I knew a gay couple (Jeff and Gay) yes, that is their names...anyway, they were together as a "couple" for 16 years.  They went to orgies, swing parties, had sex with men and women...anyone who was a willing participant.  They liked that they could do this. I know many males in monogamous long term homosexual relationships. I also know some who are, well, not lol. There are loving couples and selfish sluts in every sexual orientation. There are also countless examples of heterosexuals giving monogamy a bad name, just in the political world! I also know a few heterosexual married couples who are swingers. It always comes back to individual behaviour, not as a generalization of a group.








I will have to think of the two authors, who I don't feel like looking up, I am talking in chat with an old friend...anyway, both gay men, both really think the way homosexual men are being portrayed in Hollywood is a complete fallacy.  Both believe most gay men are in it for the pure sexual pleasure...instant gratification...and have no clue why they are being portrayed as being emotional.  They have sex with multiple partners within the gay community. That is not true of homosexual men as a whole.








I still think that homosexual people should have the right to get married.  Quite frankly, I don't care what people do behind closed doors...we all have our things we do.  I believe that even though I've read accounts of gay lifestyles and how they are conducted, there are men who want to be lifelong partners with other men.  Same for women. And that is fantastic. I'm glad that you can be adult enough to not want to legislate an opinion. I disagree with alot of ways people behave too but unless it is really hurting another I would never want it to be illegal.









 





I think this has strayed away from what I was originally trying to say....which is...I don't want my kids being led/encouraged to experiment with their sexuality at their ages.  Well, my oldest is an adult, as I keep having to point out!  (to me)



Anyway, I think it would be safer for them to experiment with the same sex in that no pregnancies will be incurred, however, I don't think they are emotionally ready for any kind of sex.  IMHO as their mother, I talk to them regularly...and yeah, Jo, I come across as crass as it has been crassly expressed to me...HOWEVER, what I say HERE is different than how I'd address my children.  I have got to make it clear I LOVE MY KIDS UNCONDITIONALLY  , I know what conditional love feels like, and I couldn't imagine setting those limitations on my precious kids.  That is why we are so close, because I love them even when they think they are telling me something terrible they did....I wouldn't hurt them to make myself feel righteous.

Isobel - posted on 10/05/2009

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most of the swingers and perverts I know are straight...I won't tell you how I know them ;P

we should get Sharon from DM over here ;)

Jenny - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



You know, Jo, I am in the middle of my post to you, you make another post, I have to go read it...and now I have to start all over. I hate that lol.






First, homosexual sex is deviating form the norm.  It is deviating from the norm for you. It feels perfectly normal to LBGT individuals. To have homosexual sex you kinda have to get creative. As I do with heterosexual sex.  I actually saw the reference to fisting in the movie Chasing Amy.  That was my first indication as to how lesbians could even try to have any kind of intercourse.  As for how gay men have sex, well, some of them like to talk about it. I've never even had the inclination to try it but that's just me =) Toys are wonderful thing. Aside from that sex is one part of a relationship. The intimate connection and friendship is much more important over the long term as it is with all relationships.






Here, let me put it differently....a lesbian isn't going to take a penis up her vagina the way a hetero would.  I can be crude and crass Jo, I've never hidden that. One minor detail in the grand scheme of things.






I don't know how many homosexual males are actually in loving caring monogomous relationships.  Many of them have said that they like having sexual relations with men because men will do everything a woman won't.  I knew a gay couple (Jeff and Gay) yes, that is their names...anyway, they were together as a "couple" for 16 years.  They went to orgies, swing parties, had sex with men and women...anyone who was a willing participant.  They liked that they could do this. I know many males in monogamous long term homosexual relationships. I also know some who are, well, not lol. There are loving couples and selfish sluts in every sexual orientation. There are also countless examples of heterosexuals giving monogamy a bad name, just in the political world! I also know a few heterosexual married couples who are swingers. It always comes back to individual behaviour, not as a generalization of a group.






I will have to think of the two authors, who I don't feel like looking up, I am talking in chat with an old friend...anyway, both gay men, both really think the way homosexual men are being portrayed in Hollywood is a complete fallacy.  Both believe most gay men are in it for the pure sexual pleasure...instant gratification...and have no clue why they are being portrayed as being emotional.  They have sex with multiple partners within the gay community. That is not true of homosexual men as a whole.






I still think that homosexual people should have the right to get married.  Quite frankly, I don't care what people do behind closed doors...we all have our things we do.  I believe that even though I've read accounts of gay lifestyles and how they are conducted, there are men who want to be lifelong partners with other men.  Same for women. And that is fantastic. I'm glad that you can be adult enough to not want to legislate an opinion. I disagree with alot of ways people behave too but unless it is really hurting another I would never want it to be illegal.





 

Jenny - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



You know, Jo, I am in the middle of my post to you, you make another post, I have to go read it...and now I have to start all over. I hate that lol.






First, homosexual sex is deviating form the norm.  It is deviating from the norm for you. It feels perfectly normal to LBGT individuals. To have homosexual sex you kinda have to get creative. As I do with heterosexual sex.  I actually saw the reference to fisting in the movie Chasing Amy.  That was my first indication as to how lesbians could even try to have any kind of intercourse.  As for how gay men have sex, well, some of them like to talk about it. I've never even had the inclination to try it but that's just me =) Toys are wonderful thing. Aside from that sex is one part of a relationship. The intimate connection and friendship is much more important over the long term as it is with all relationships.






Here, let me put it differently....a lesbian isn't going to take a penis up her vagina the way a hetero would.  I can be crude and crass Jo, I've never hidden that. One minor detail in the grand scheme of things.






I don't know how many homosexual males are actually in loving caring monogomous relationships.  Many of them have said that they like having sexual relations with men because men will do everything a woman won't.  I knew a gay couple (Jeff and Gay) yes, that is their names...anyway, they were together as a "couple" for 16 years.  They went to orgies, swing parties, had sex with men and women...anyone who was a willing participant.  They liked that they could do this. I know many males in monogamous long term homosexual relationships. I also know some who are, well, not lol. There are loving couples and selfish sluts in every sexual orientation. There are also countless examples of heterosexuals giving monogamy a bad name, just in the political world! I also know a few heterosexual married couples who are swingers. It always comes back to individual behaviour, not as a generalization of a group.






I will have to think of the two authors, who I don't feel like looking up, I am talking in chat with an old friend...anyway, both gay men, both really think the way homosexual men are being portrayed in Hollywood is a complete fallacy.  Both believe most gay men are in it for the pure sexual pleasure...instant gratification...and have no clue why they are being portrayed as being emotional.  They have sex with multiple partners within the gay community. That is not true of homosexual men as a whole.






I still think that homosexual people should have the right to get married.  Quite frankly, I don't care what people do behind closed doors...we all have our things we do.  I believe that even though I've read accounts of gay lifestyles and how they are conducted, there are men who want to be lifelong partners with other men.  Same for women. And that is fantastic. I'm glad that you can be adult enough to not want to legislate an opinion. I disagree with alot of ways people behave too but unless it is really hurting another I would never want it to be illegal.





 

Jenny - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



You know, Jo, I am in the middle of my post to you, you make another post, I have to go read it...and now I have to start all over. I hate that lol.






First, homosexual sex is deviating form the norm.  It is deviating from the norm for you. It feels perfectly normal to LBGT individuals. To have homosexual sex you kinda have to get creative. As I do with heterosexual sex.  I actually saw the reference to fisting in the movie Chasing Amy.  That was my first indication as to how lesbians could even try to have any kind of intercourse.  As for how gay men have sex, well, some of them like to talk about it. I've never even had the inclination to try it but that's just me =) Toys are wonderful thing. Aside from that sex is one part of a relationship. The intimate connection and friendship is much more important over the long term as it is with all relationships.






Here, let me put it differently....a lesbian isn't going to take a penis up her vagina the way a hetero would.  I can be crude and crass Jo, I've never hidden that. One minor detail in the grand scheme of things.






I don't know how many homosexual males are actually in loving caring monogomous relationships.  Many of them have said that they like having sexual relations with men because men will do everything a woman won't.  I knew a gay couple (Jeff and Gay) yes, that is their names...anyway, they were together as a "couple" for 16 years.  They went to orgies, swing parties, had sex with men and women...anyone who was a willing participant.  They liked that they could do this. I know many males in monogamous long term homosexual relationships. I also know some who are, well, not lol. There are loving couples and selfish sluts in every sexual orientation. There are also countless examples of heterosexuals giving monogamy a bad name, just in the political world! I also know a few heterosexual married couples who are swingers. It always comes back to individual behaviour, not as a generalization of a group.






I will have to think of the two authors, who I don't feel like looking up, I am talking in chat with an old friend...anyway, both gay men, both really think the way homosexual men are being portrayed in Hollywood is a complete fallacy.  Both believe most gay men are in it for the pure sexual pleasure...instant gratification...and have no clue why they are being portrayed as being emotional.  They have sex with multiple partners within the gay community. That is not true of homosexual men as a whole.






I still think that homosexual people should have the right to get married.  Quite frankly, I don't care what people do behind closed doors...we all have our things we do.  I believe that even though I've read accounts of gay lifestyles and how they are conducted, there are men who want to be lifelong partners with other men.  Same for women. And that is fantastic. I'm glad that you can be adult enough to not want to legislate an opinion. I disagree with alot of ways people behave too but unless it is really hurting another I would never want it to be illegal.





 

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Ok I lied - I will post 1 more time, then I'm done ! I promise promise !



I understand what you are saying Jeannette.



I know a fair few gay men and quite a few lesbians - as well as quite a few bisexuals and I can honestly say none of them fit into the category that you have described. They are all looking for "the one" just like any other person does. Someone to love and have them love back, someone to share a bond, an intimate, loving, caring, supportive and healthy relationship with. I can honestly say I do not know of a single homosexual who is the way you describe.



There may be some people I know through mutual friends who are like that - but the people I personally know - I can't even remotely imagine them being that kind of person. AND those people, they are both homosexual as well as heterosexual, you can find those types of people in all walks of life, gay, straight, white, black, tall, small, fat and skinny - those type of people are everywhere. I know more sexually deviant straight people than I could even see the gay people I know being that way.



I find speaking of another lifestyle that you say you're ok with in such a brutal fashion seems odd. You know, how can you say that you'd love your children just the same if they were gay if in the next post you say it's all about fisting and gettin it up the ass... it's awkward... :-\



I'm not questioning whether you would love your children any less - I'm sure you would love them and their partner the same, I just found that awkward. I think of every couple in the same way - they are couples afterall. They are at least attempting at a healthy relationship (unless obviously that is not the case - abuse etc). I'm not talking about the millions of SLUTS and WHORES that walk around and spread thier legs (or cheeks) for just anyone for a free drink. I'm talking about people who are in relationships or trying to find that commitment - I find it unsettling that you would simply prefer to refer to homosexual relationships as fisting and getting it up the ass and ignore the hundreds and thousands of homosexuals who are legitimately trying to find love just like the rest of the straight people who make up the rest of the population.



Okay now I'm done! For serious! This forum is dangerous for me!

Thanks for reading my thoughts on this topic!

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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And now I'm done posting ! I swear ! Not literally though, just like.. I promise.. I already know I'm thought of as a classless bitch but I don't wanna cement that thought by cussing !!! Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here cause... well... cause I can !!! :D

?? - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jenny:

Are heterosexuals attracted to everyone from the opposite sex? Of course not.



Quoting Laura:

I am ;)





Slut :P

Jenny - posted on 10/05/2009

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Thank you for sharing your experience Natalie. I was beginning to think I was the only one around here lol. I agree with the last few posts. There are sluts in any sexual orientation. It's not that I'm attracted to ALL the boys and girls. If I'm attracted to someone I won't rule out a monogamous relationship because they don't have a penis. Are heterosexuals attracted to everyone from the opposite sex? Of course not.

Natalie - posted on 10/05/2009

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Quoting Jeannette:



My intent was to argue that the entertainment industry makes it seem as if homosexuality is a choice. 






I don't think bisexuality is real.  Sorry, I know you feel the way you do, but when you've committed to one person, that is who you will be having sex with.






Since being attracted to people does not also include sexual relations, I think you all have strengthened my argument against bisexuality.  Again, unless you are a slut, you are going to pick one...you will either be straight or you will be gay...in which case, it is a choice again.  Hmmm...this is getting interesting.






Anyway, I believe that many gay people are born that way.  I also believe there are people toying with the idea that has more cult clout...gay is cool.






So, again, I will state, some people are born gay...some people are choosing to act gay.






If my kids were born gay, I think I'd know...and I'd love and accept them AND their partner.  I would want them to be monogamous, just as I do with them being straight, and be committed...ie: married to their partner. 









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Someone can choose to act gay, that doesn't make them gay. Many gay people choose to act straight to avoid the pain it would cause them and their families. Choosing to act a certain way doesn’t make a person gay or straight, it makes them miserable because they are denying how they were made for the sake of social appearances.



 



Your whole argument about bisexuality not being real is based on the fact that you can’t imagine being “confused” about whether or not you want to have sex with a man or a woman. By your logic, everyone who is not in a relationship would be choosing to be asexual. By being with my husband, I am not choosing to be straight, I am choosing to be with him. If my old girlfriend hadn’t turned to drugs because of the torment her family was putting her through, there’s a good chance we’d still be together. I wouldn’t have chosen to be gay in that case, I would have chosen to stay with her.



 



Either way, I chose the person, not the gender. I am happy in the relationship that I now have and I have no plans to leave it. That doesn’t change the fact that I once loved someone of the same gender. If (God forbid…) something happened to my husband, I would be open to having a relationship with a woman when I was ready.



Amie - posted on 10/04/2009

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Jeanette, I was warned no one would get what I meant when I posted. And it seems they were right. In terms of experimenting I did not mean SOLELY gay/lesbian experimentation, their is a lot to experiment with in even straight relationships. It is not even limited to sleeping around. It can be done within a monogamous relationship but if you are happy with your husband and a missionary position sex life then so be it.

As for the bisexual aspect. Why on earth does it automatically mean a person is promiscuous? That they will be unfaithful and can't commit? Just because they are attracted to both sexes? That doesn't make any sense at all !

A person, regardless of their sexual orientation, can maintain and have a happy healthy monogamous relationship. I'm sure they will still notice people who are attractive to them but that does not mean they are going to step outside their relationship.

Johnny - posted on 10/04/2009

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You can be monogamous and be bisexual. It is possible for a person to go from a loving sexual relationship with a person of the opposite sex and a loving sexual relationship with a person of the same sex. Just because they are monogamous with their current partner does not mean they no longer have feelings for others. I love my husband and I am faithful to him, but I still had the hots for Patrick Swayze, lol. And if I was bisexual I'd be dreaming of getting it on with Lady Gaga. I'm sure most of you continue to have attractions to those other than your spouse while remaining monogamous. Bisexuality does not equal slut or promiscuous. That is a very uninformed viewpoint IMO. Sexuality research has shown again and again that sexual attraction exists on a sliding scale, most people are gay or straight, but many people fall in the continuum in between.

Sorry to use wikipedia but I'm supposed to be watching Dexter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scal...

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Natalie:

I am extremely concerned about the black and white attitude towards sexuality that I'm seeing here. Confusion is natural. Imagine being raised with the expectation that you would be with someone of the opposite gender, but you're attracted to your own gender. You might be confused, and you might try to force a straight relationship. You might even try experimenting sexually to see if you enjoy it or if it will help you enjoy being with someone of the opposite gender. If it doesn't work, you may be afraid that you're broken, or unlovable, or any number of other negative, self-esteem destroying emotions. If it does work, you may continue to feel conflicted if you still feel attracted to the same gender as well. In either case, experimenting with someone of the same gender might appear to be a reasonable way to resolve those feelings. When parents say it's unnatural to be confused about it, or worse that it's an abomination to have any homosexual feelings at all, how many other options does the kid have to turn to?

In addition, bisexuality is real, and it is not slutty or indicative of someone who is addicted to sexual contact. I have known that I was attracted to females since around the same time that I realized I liked boys. I have had a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman, unfortunately the pressure she faced from her family led to a painful breakup. In the years since then, I met my husband. One of the things that made me fall in love with him was that he recognized I wasn't interested in having group sex or discussing the attractiveness of other women with him- we both wanted a monogamous relationship. I am still bisexual, but I am with someone I love and who loves me, so no, I will not just do it with anyone.

On the other hand, I have been burned by someone who was using bisexuality as a tool to gain popularity points. It didn't work, so she ditched me and started pretending to be anorexic. Some people really will use any method to get attention, but we're not disputing that some people really do have eating disorders are we?

Try to think of it this way: most people have a "type" of person they are attracted to. It may be broad or meticulously defined. Some traits may be absolutely required for you to feel attracted to a person, while you care little or nothing about others. For most people, gender is probably one of the top traits. Historically for me, good humor, dark hair, and a nice smile are what I notice first, gender doesn't play a huge role. I have never chosen to find someone attractive, either they are or they aren't.


My intent was to argue that the entertainment industry makes it seem as if homosexuality is a choice. 



I don't think bisexuality is real.  Sorry, I know you feel the way you do, but when you've committed to one person, that is who you will be having sex with.



Since being attracted to people does not also include sexual relations, I think you all have strengthened my argument against bisexuality.  Again, unless you are a slut, you are going to pick one...you will either be straight or you will be gay...in which case, it is a choice again.  Hmmm...this is getting interesting.



Anyway, I believe that many gay people are born that way.  I also believe there are people toying with the idea that has more cult clout...gay is cool.



So, again, I will state, some people are born gay...some people are choosing to act gay.



If my kids were born gay, I think I'd know...and I'd love and accept them AND their partner.  I would want them to be monogamous, just as I do with them being straight, and be committed...ie: married to their partner. 

Natalie - posted on 10/04/2009

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I am extremely concerned about the black and white attitude towards sexuality that I'm seeing here. Confusion is natural. Imagine being raised with the expectation that you would be with someone of the opposite gender, but you're attracted to your own gender. You might be confused, and you might try to force a straight relationship. You might even try experimenting sexually to see if you enjoy it or if it will help you enjoy being with someone of the opposite gender. If it doesn't work, you may be afraid that you're broken, or unlovable, or any number of other negative, self-esteem destroying emotions. If it does work, you may continue to feel conflicted if you still feel attracted to the same gender as well. In either case, experimenting with someone of the same gender might appear to be a reasonable way to resolve those feelings. When parents say it's unnatural to be confused about it, or worse that it's an abomination to have any homosexual feelings at all, how many other options does the kid have to turn to?

In addition, bisexuality is real, and it is not slutty or indicative of someone who is addicted to sexual contact. I have known that I was attracted to females since around the same time that I realized I liked boys. I have had a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman, unfortunately the pressure she faced from her family led to a painful breakup. In the years since then, I met my husband. One of the things that made me fall in love with him was that he recognized I wasn't interested in having group sex or discussing the attractiveness of other women with him- we both wanted a monogamous relationship. I am still bisexual, but I am with someone I love and who loves me, so no, I will not just do it with anyone.

On the other hand, I have been burned by someone who was using bisexuality as a tool to gain popularity points. It didn't work, so she ditched me and started pretending to be anorexic. Some people really will use any method to get attention, but we're not disputing that some people really do have eating disorders are we?

Try to think of it this way: most people have a "type" of person they are attracted to. It may be broad or meticulously defined. Some traits may be absolutely required for you to feel attracted to a person, while you care little or nothing about others. For most people, gender is probably one of the top traits. Historically for me, good humor, dark hair, and a nice smile are what I notice first, gender doesn't play a huge role. I have never chosen to find someone attractive, either they are or they aren't.

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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I agree with this quote...it does me no injury whatsoever what my neighbor believes. I agree with gay marriage, I want the right to pursue happiness and I would want that for others.,

Johnny - posted on 10/04/2009

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Just a small bone of contention with that Jeanette, although overall I somewhat agree. It is not the "sexual act" that makes them homosexual, it is the sexual attraction. Enjoying spending time with people of the same sex is not an indication of sexuality, obviously. However, people can know that they are gay or straight without ever having partaken in a sexual act. Not to say that it is always the case, but I know I was certain that I was not attracted to women long before I ever had sexual interactions with a man. And I am sure that many homosexual individuals do not need to have had gay sex to know that they are gay.

I also think that our puritan attitudes towards sex are backward and religiously based. Not to say that everyone who is uptight about sexual issues is religious, that is not the case, but the moralistic view of sex stems from our religious backgrounds. I believe that as long as we have self-respect and altruistic attitudes towards others, sexual experimentation is an excellent thing. Bad planning, low self-respect, cruelty to others and stupidity leads to unwanted pregnancies and diseases, not sexual experimentation.

But I do think your are correct in asserting that you do not need to experiment to understand your own sexuality. I think if people are honest with themselves, they already know their true desires, whether they be straight or gay, and don't need try it all out to figure out how they feel. I think that is an excuse that is used to be more sexually adventurous, and it's sad that people need an excuse.

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Laura:

The fact that you are not confused does not mean it is not natural for others to be confused. Being born with a preference that is different from everyone else or no preference either way, for that matter...would be very confusing.

Kevin Smith was joking about choosing to be gay if he could get easy blowjobs...and it was hilarious.



I do think it is unnatural for people to be confused about which sex they want to have sex with.  I cannot even fathom a girl not being able to decide if she wants to fist or be fisted by another girl...or to give oral sex to another girl.



I cannot fathom a guy not being able to decide if he wants to give it or take it up the ass.  Nope...I guess he can stick something up his butt...I dunno.



Anyway, I think it is destructive to experiment with other people.  They guy who broke up with his girlfriend of one year...hurt her like Hell...she cried for weeks.  She didn't trust any guy for months.  She didn't want to date any guy for fear that maybe it is something in the water. Then, she decided, okay, I won't date guys who have effed up family histories.  NO lIE...she is currently dating a guy whose mother and father are still happily married and had 5 kids.  Guys with unstable families now freak her out..she assumes they will turn gay. 



We get our views from our experiences...maybe if we all could have a positive gay experience? jk



 

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Amie:



Quoting Laura:

I will say that experimentation is becoming more and more common, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. If you have any doubts in your mind you should work it out until you know for certain where your preferences lie (no pun intended)





Jeanette wasn't talking just experimenting with being gay though. She was talking about any experimenting at their age. Which I will agree (and forgot to post in mine!) that experimenting at certain ages, with any sex, is not always a good idea.






I am not okay with my teenagers "experimenting" with sex now.  NO.  However, I am not a complete idiot.  I have tried to get my oldest on bc, which she will not do; I've also gotten my younger daughter on bc and she had a terrible time. 



I've asked them both to use 2 kinds of protection, as they are both straight, anytime they think they will be sexually active.  Birth control and disease control; they both know what that entails.



I do see the experimentation being more common as a bad thing.  1. It is promoting promiscuity, which leads to unwanted pregnancies and diseases.  2. promiscuity also leads to lower self worth...something I don't want any of my children to go through because as I've told them, "you are worth more than 5 minutes of a good time".  3.  It leads to doubt, I don't think it diminishes doubt.  4.  Experimenting to see if you are homosexual just gives credit to the idea that you are not in fact born homosexual.  Either you want to have sex with someone of your sex, or you don't.  It kinda is that black and white... homosexuality isn't about shopping for shoes or going to football games together, that is friendships.  Which brings me to another point...the teens that I was talking to about homosexuality and their views, many of them did think they were gay BECAUSE they enjoyed spending time with the same sex.  What kind of freaking messages are they getting that they don't realize that it is the sexual act that makes them homosexual.



I am sure psychobabblers, and people desperate to make it even more mainstream would get excited by the idea that they've convinced us all - yeah, we're all a little gay.



Get a friggin clue!  (not directed at anyone here)

Isobel - posted on 10/04/2009

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The fact that you are not confused does not mean it is not natural for others to be confused. Being born with a preference that is different from everyone else or no preference either way, for that matter...would be very confusing.

Kevin Smith was joking about choosing to be gay if he could get easy blowjobs...and it was hilarious.

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Laura:

Jeannette, are you in Canada or is Degrassi played down in the states now? just curious Kevin Smith is awesome



I don't know about Kevin Smith.  He is straight, married in fact.  He has a podcast that my husband has listened to regularly.



Kevin Smith often has a gay guy that he questions all the time about his homosexual lifestyle.  The gay guy talks about how he meets guys online...he invites them over to his place...he gets them to give him a blow job...then he makes them leave.  Kevin Smith said...wow, if I would have known about that before I got married, I would have been gay.  That is an example of a very selfish way of looking at homosexuallity.  I believe that most homosexuals see their relationships as something real, not demeaning, and a partnership in the pleasure. 



I liked Kevin Smith, but because his brother is gay, it is as if he is trying to open everyone up to gay experiences.  I am not that confused...and I believe it would be obvious if you preferred one sex over another.

Amie - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Laura:

I will say that experimentation is becoming more and more common, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. If you have any doubts in your mind you should work it out until you know for certain where your preferences lie (no pun intended)


Jeanette wasn't talking just experimenting with being gay though. She was talking about any experimenting at their age. Which I will agree (and forgot to post in mine!) that experimenting at certain ages, with any sex, is not always a good idea.

Isobel - posted on 10/04/2009

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Jeannette, are you in Canada or is Degrassi played down in the states now? just curious Kevin Smith is awesome

Isobel - posted on 10/04/2009

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Yes, each generation is far more accepting than the one before it...that's cause the world is becoming more and more educated about the subject...I think that it is wonderful. My question addressed those who are not lucky enough to live in Canada or Hollywood...the adult world is not nearly as accepting of gays and lesbians as teenagers are, and generations have suffered for this cause...there are still far too many members of the LGBT community that are constantly abused simply for being who they are.

I will say that experimentation is becoming more and more common, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. If you have any doubts in your mind you should work it out until you know for certain where your preferences lie (no pun intended)

Amie - posted on 10/04/2009

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Jeanette, Yes there are some people who THINK they are gay/lesbian or just have this idyllic view of what it is that they give it a go. That however does not mean it overrides our natural ways. The examples you've given are obviously people who are VERY hurt and upset about something going on in their lives. If you can give me an example of someone who just up and decides one day ok I'll try this out just because, without any type of turmoil in your lives, your point might bear a little more weight.

As for the experimenting part. Don't we all do that? Really think about it. Experimenting doesn't have to mean multiple partners. Experimenting doesn't have to mean you are a slut. That's a pretty narrow view of the world. It's not all black and white. There's plenty of shades of grey in there.

Traci - posted on 10/04/2009

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I think your piece was very well put, Jeanette. Thank you for sharing those experiences with us.

I completely agree with what you said about your kids. If any of my children were to say they are gay, I would love them no less. If my kids were "experimenting" I'd be pissed! I think the whole culture of it all is being shoved down our throats. I understand why they do it, to force acceptance upon us, but I think its the wrong way to go.

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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Quoting Laura:

I am just curious...and this is an honest question...why on earth would anybody choose to be part of a group that is ostracized, ridiculed, excluded from religious groups, beaten, even murdered? Where's the plus side?



Actually, the media and entertainment industries have made it so mainstream that it is more widely accepted.  Even Christians who would have ostracized them before are accepting them in their churches.



For some people it is a choice of experimentation.  I know this from personal experience as well.  I know a guy who said he was gay.  Broke up with his girlfriend of one year right after that.  Literally, 6 months later, he said he was confused.  (This may be worth noting...his mother left his father for another woman just 2 months before his gay pronouncement and he lived with them at the time.)  He told his ex girlfriend that he regretted ever breaking up with her because he didn't think he could achieve the level of happiness he felt when he was with her.  Now, he claims bisexuality.  I personally think bisexuality is definately a choice...you either like having sexual relations with one sex or you don't.  Otherwise, you are a slut.  IMHO.  As my husband puts it..."you'll screw anything".



Now, I know of several teenagers who have known someone, or who themselves have claimed to be gay.  Their reason?  They thought it was cool.  Ever watch shows like Degrassi?  Well, these teens do.  I asked them if they saw people treating gay people badly.  They all said no.  Some of these teens confessed to claiming to be gay/bisexual for the popularity points.  They got high fives and hugs.  They got MORE attention being gay/bisexual...the "underdog" or "disadvantaged".



In that way, it pisses me off that gay/bisexual is something that "should be tried" in the words of Kevin Smith from and episode of Degrassi.  I don't want my kids being told that they should be promiscuous or sexually active with anyone at their age.  Well, my oldest is 18, she has her own life to live now...but she is not gay.  If my kids were born gay, I would absolutely still love them.  However, if they "experimented" I would be disappointed the way I would be disappointed if I found out they "experimented" with sex in any other way at their age. 



I think that our entertainment industry is pushing the experimental ideas, in every way, on our kids, on our population.  They are encouraging people to find their inner gay in some ways.  Ever hear the song by Katy Perry 'I kissed a girl' and I liked it?  She dates men. 



In that way, our society is effing up the legitimate argument that people are born homosexual.  Yes, I believe that people are born more attratcted to the same sex, and that they only achieve satisfaction from the same sex...but watch t.v. or go to a teen movie...and it is an experiment worth trying.  



I personally know a woman in her 50s who was married, had 3 kids, her husband had an affair.  She divorced.  Moved in with a younger guy, he did drugs, he largely ignored her...he cheated on her.  She became a lesbian.  She is no longer involved physically with this woman, but they remain best friends.  She told me, I did not conclude, that her relationship with this woman was the only time she felt loved.  I watched an episode of cheaters (yes, sometimes I partake in trash t.v.) where a woman was convinced her lesbian lover was cheating on her.  Come to find out, she was in fact cheating.  At the end the woman, not the cheater, said something like - It isn't worth being with a woman, lesbians cheat too...because she had become a lesbian after being cheated on by a man. 



I believe that homosexuality can be a choice too...because I keep seeing examples of it. 

Traci - posted on 10/03/2009

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I usually love arguing, too. But I've been posting in COM for about 4 months now and it's getting old....after a few days, I'll get the "bug" back I'm sure.... :)

Natalie - posted on 10/03/2009

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Quoting Traci:

LOL....I didn't mind the talk about dogs and their excrement....I'm getting sick of arguing all the time :(


Maybe you should join a dog lovers' group. I love arguing, that's why I'm here =D

Natalie - posted on 10/03/2009

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Aww he sounds delightful (I do love dogs, and I'm sure if you put up with that particular behavior, he's a generally loving and playful guy).

Ahh why am I talking about dog poop?

On topic, how does the majority even matter when it comes to human rights? Should the Bible's stance on women being subservient to men have kept the 19th Amendment from passing? What if the majority of the people allowed to vote at that point had thought so?

Isobel - posted on 10/03/2009

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funny...I was thinking of the right to pray on capital hill...it's amazing how everybody (even people from the same way of thinking) interprets things differently :)

Natalie - posted on 10/03/2009

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I used to teach preschool. If I had a dollar for every time a kid ate their own poop or smeared it on the walls (and toys, and me, and everything else), I'd be a rich lady. On the other hand, I have four dogs (living with my parents, thank goodness...) and two cats. None of them eat their poop, all of them go to the bathroom where they are supposed to, and have since they were trained at a few weeks old. My pets learned the appropriate way to act quickly and easily with consistent discipline, yet many human children take months or even longer to potty train.



You can't use manners or social adeptness as a barometer to prove that humans are somehow above other animals. All animals have to learn appropriate behavior. Also, if you have a pet dragging their butt on the carpet, you need to get them checked for worms, because it's not actually a common behavior, it's a sign of discomfort.



Continuing to deny homosexuals the right to get married is gender discrimination, plain and simple. I have asked it before, and I'll ask it again: can anyone make a strong, FACT BASED argument against gay marriage?



Great quote Mary Elizabeth. Before I read all the craziness in this thread, I was applying it to our current environmental crisis- when other people use paper that is made from trees in old-growth forests, it hurts the world that I have to live in. When waste is dumped in the water that will eventually run through my pipes, it hurts me to drink it. Gas guzzling SUVs pollute the air that I have to breathe. Since these things hurt people who aren't using them, should there be legislation against them?

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