Anything you want to talk about ladies.....anything under the sun.

Diane - posted on 06/15/2010 ( 22 moms have responded )

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Feel free to let the wind blow as you like it without fear of getting banned.

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Jenny - posted on 06/17/2010

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Diane, I said Israel, not Jews. Don't misquote me. I don't know if you are aware but there are many types of people living in Israel including Palestinians. The treatment being shown to Palestine IS akin to concentration camps. Children are being barred from school by gun toting soldiers. Medicine and food is severly being restricted. These people are systematically being killed off and I will NOT retract my statement. This IS genocide.

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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MY PET TOPIC...health care...every country in the world would be better off with Universal Health Care...

Tanya - posted on 06/15/2010

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"I believe that Religion is the opiate of the masses"
I agree.

I also believe that churches should have to pay taxes.
Maybe we can get to that too!

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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well...since this is a thread about everything...I believe that Religion is the opiate of the masses...discuss

Krista - posted on 06/15/2010

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All righty, so now to address your points:

I ask you again Krista…….why reduce abortion if there is nothing wrong with it. And like I have asked others here……..if there is something immoral or wrong about it, then how could you possibly condone it. We do not want the same things, if you are pro-choice and you condone anyone getting an abortion even for rape. I am against abortion unless it is to save the life of the mother…and in this case the abortion does not have to look like it does now. I want abortion illegal, not just getting the numbers down lower. A life is a life.

I want abortion to be reduced, yet I still condone it, due to that little phrase called "necessary evil."

I do not like abortions. The very thought of them makes me sick.

However, in my mind, that does not negate the fact that I believe that sometimes, unfortunately, they ARE necessary.

You believe that abortion is permissible to save the life of the mother, and you are able to reconcile that with your own dislike for abortion, right?

Well, I believe that abortion is permissible to save the life of the mother, or in cases of rape/incest, or in cases where there are fetal abnormalities that are incompatible with life. And I am able to reconcile that with my dislike for abortion. Does that make sense?

As well, I am also a realist. And I believe that there is no way to arrange it so that abortion is only legal in the circumstances I described above. I believe that it would result in a skyrocketing of false rape accusations. I believe that it would result in a booming black-market for abortions. We can't go back to the way society was before Roe vs. Wade, Diane. And I stand by my earlier statement that criminalizing abortion will not eliminate it 100%. So if you criminalized it, what would you then do to prevent any others from taking place? What would stop wealthy women from going to Europe or South America or Canada to have an abortion performed? What would stop poor women from finding a black-market doctor (who would probably make enough that he could bribe the cops to look the other way)?

But, just because I don't think it is logistically feasible to criminalize abortion, that doesn't mean that I don't want there to be a lot fewer abortions. I would LOVE to see a world where there are no abortions. But I just don't think that's going to happen, and that we'll have to settle for reducing the numbers, by way of reducing the amount of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

This conversation has been closed to further comments

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Krista - posted on 06/17/2010

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While Diane is banned from posting, it is only fair to lock the threads that she initiated, as she will not be able to respond to subsequent comments during that time. If she chooses to return after the ban has lifted, then she or I will unlock the threads.

Thanks!

Krista - posted on 06/17/2010

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All right. You're getting a week off. In that Helen Thomas thread, YOU were the one who brought up abortion first, and who then kept insisting on bringing it up. And YOU were the one who started with the personal attacks by saying "i'm shocked that most of you hate Jews." I have tried to explain to you over and over, as clearly as possible, why your statements are offensive, but in your viewpoint, everybody else is the problem, and you have done absolutely nothing wrong.

So, why don't you take a week off, and maybe go join some of the other communities on COM (I think there's an abortion thread currently taking place over at Parenting Debates and Hot Topics), and see how things go for you there.

Diane - posted on 06/17/2010

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Ok the Helen Thomas thread where I was accused of sabotaging the thread.

Here is the account of what happened. I went in order of the people who spoke.

Jenny said this……..”Israel has learned well from the Nazis well it seems. Yay genocide!”

Mary said this, “I also agree with Jenny. The part of her statement where she said that the Palestinians are OCCUPIED was true!”

Laci said this, “But they're the little guy, right? and we aren't allowed to cross our little friend, regardless of how horrible they may be treating people.”

I replied to them with this, “Why do you both hate Jews? Obviously you do by your comments.”


What do these comment SUGGEST? Do their comments show any love whatsoever? Our "little friend"……what a smart ass thing to say.

These comments show hatred IMO.

I then said this, “The Left hate Jews, favor Palestinians, usually are anti-God especially Christians, pro-abortion, big government....they slide towards socialism, believe in hand outs that the rich should pay for everyone, socialized medicine, government control over children and they want open borders and blame America for the worlds problems.......usually those that fall into this category are Democrats. The opposite of everything I mentioned here.....are Conservatives who usually are Republicans.
I could guess what position most of you would take on any issue and probably more times than not be right.
I am shocked a bit that most of you hate Jews. “


And here comes compassionate and fair, Krista………who said, “Diane, your stereotypes are ugly, unwarranted, and are delving into the realm of personal attack.”

But you fail to see others Krista….and what your friends say.

Krista also said this……”Dial it back”

Why don’t you tell Jenny the Communist this after she compared the Jews to the Nazis.

Do you see the whole picture? No way.

Now up to this point abortion was not talked about. I mentioned it in a list of left wing characteristics but did not elaborate on the subject.

So next in line is Mary. She says this, “#3 I am pro-choice because MY religious views have no place in our politics.”

So she brings up abortion and her pro-choice stance. Also brings religion into it.


So Sara puts her two cents in and defends the Palestinians

Laci then says this, “It's good to know how hateful you are toward other religions. I suppose its understandable that you feel those of the judeo-christian category should have a free pass at persecuting others, given your apparent feeling toward all other religious groups.”

I never said a bad word about another religion. I simply was defending Isarels land. BUT…jenny did. She compared the Jews to Nazis. And NOT ONE OF YOU CALLED HER OUT. But you call me out for defending Israel.

Laci then says that Christianity persecutes people. Hell in Christianity you are not forced to believe and in Islam you are in many countries around the world. LOL

I did not bash anyone, it’s about YOUR VIEWS on Christianity and the hostility towards it.

So then Sara blames Israel for all the problems…”I'm honestly starting to believe that most of the problems in the Middle East can be traced right back to our little friend Israel.”

Wow what love. And she said this of course in their defense…”I feel for the Palestinians because they were happy in their own country (Jewish AND Muslim) until another Country decided that their country would now become Israel. They were displaced from their home, just the same as the Jews were displaced from theirs in Europe.”

Ahhhh the love.

I posted next and I addressed Mary’s abortion comment she had previously made. I talked to her directly. I said, “Mary let me ask you this…because maybe I missed it. Are you or aren’t you, pro-choice? I work with Catholics and your Church takes the pro-life stance. The bible is against abortion, so if you are pro-choice then you are NOT PRO-LIFE AND CONDONE ABORTION. There is no grey area on this.”

I then moved on by asking these questions. “What liberal here is against abortion, please tell me? What liberal here is for this war and likes Jews really? Want a small government, is against redistribution of wealth?”

I do not just dwell on abortion but mention other things I accused liberals of believing in my initial post.

I again address Mary and answer her comments to me. Mary said, “#3 I am pro-choice because MY religious views have no place in our politics.”

I said, “And I would love to debate just this issue on a religious point of view. I would love to see you make a case for abortion scripturally.”

Not much about abortion is there?

Now up to this point there has not been any debate about abortion. But here comes Laci…..with this.

“The bible NEVER ADDRESSES ABORTION.”

ROFLMAO

Now tell me….is she opening a can of worms or what? LMAO

In bold letters……….she makes this statement. Was this an invitation? I do not see where anyone told her she was off topic.

Hey laci........reel it back in honey, your off topic. Naw...lets blame Diane.


So I should not have addressed this? Come on you know me better than that.

Now Krista observe the personal attacks from laci she said, “I actually think diane is a troll, shes some bored lonely person pretending to be a nutcase to amuse herself. Seriously. I ignore all further comments coming from Diane.”

I am a troll, a nutcase and lonely, oh and bored.

Not a word from the peanut gallery or the fair moderator to Laci.

So Mary is not done and she brings abortion up again. “I don't need to make a case (scripturally) for abortion!”

No one says, Mary honey reel it in you are off topic.

Mary brings it up again…….”Laci...I suggested that LONG ago...and I've tried to ignore her, but she's viciously persistent...So, I've compromised by refusing to debate abortion with her because she clearly cannot hear or understand any position on that issue that differs from her own. I've also wondered if she might be a troll...but I don't think the world is that lucky...I think she really believes the things she is saying.”


And poor Sarah……can't follow the conversation and says this…….”We're talking about abortion...AGAIN? Diane, give it a damn rest.”

Jumps in the middle and thinks I am the one who started it. Poor Laura.
She fails to see that I am not the one bringing it up. But she is not alone Krista you don’t see it either.

Now more personal attacks

……from lets see……laci again. ”I've honestly never encountered such a hateful person. I thought they only existed in isolation deep in the wilderness.”

And not one word from our moderator. Must be at the drawing board trying to figure out a way to get rid of me.

So Laci admits going off topic……….wow….and posts an David Cross video.

Then a gift from heaven when Kelly defends me. Thank you Kelly.

So wow…all of a sudden Krista you wake up and say this….”Everybody, no matter how vehemently we may disagree with each other, there is just no need to engage in personal attacks, or to accuse someone whose opinion differs from yours of being a troll. Everybody has a right to their viewpoint, but let's stick with the issues, and not get into personalities, okay?”

Ah that was so nice.

Laci adds some more fuel…”name calling, weren't we all just accused of being antisemitic? Come on now. Even after I stated my undying affection for Jews.”

No I was being bashed remember…LOL. And your comment about jews was just a joke and said in a mocking way.

Laci says, “Secondly, Diane apparently believes muslims are a plague on this planet, she believes liberals are "evil" as though we are possessed by demons, that we have no sense of morality, and we hate jews and christians. If that isn't a plethora of personal attacks I'm really not sure what is. Anything I missed?”

I never said I hated Muslims post where I did.

Sara comes to her rescue……brining up abortion again….”You forgot about us being a bunch of baby-killers.”

Now so far I have been going in order that the posts appear…..boy I have been talking a lot about abortion haven’t i?

LOL

Laci again brings it up…..”AH baby killers. That one's gotten so mundane I had forgotten.”

Can't leave it alone can ya?

Then Sara…………”You know, I just want to throw in my two cents. I know as a mod I should try to usher in some peace here, but I do think that Diane's "debating style" is offensive. What I see is people on the defensive after being personally attacked by her. Her views are not the problem, but her inablility to actually discuss points made by others, grossly misconstrue people's statements and her rampant use of personal attacks is a problem. I would love for us to be able to debate in a more civil way... but until we can ALL be civil, I don't think that's going to happen.”

So lets not as moderator message me personally, just discuss everything out in the open in front of everyone. How professional is that Sara?

This shows the bias on this site and the inability for one person to keep things fair and balanced. Because if you follow this conversations and others on other topics….I am not doing the bashing. I make points and I try to answer everyone. I am one among many who are throwing stuff my way. You don’t like my style too bad Sara. You did not say a darn thing to Jenny for her comments about Jews or to others who called me names. Good job honey.

We cant forget Carol……..”Well, I'm not offended. If Diane and I agreed on anything I would be checking myself into a mental institution ASAP!”

Boy she listened to our mods suggestion that we be nice. LOL

Carole continues with her rant….”I think I'll run off and kill some babies now. (I apologize to the rest of you but Sara's last statement perfectly sums up how I feel here, "I would love for us to be able to debate in a more civil way... but until we can ALL be civil, I don't think that's going to happen.")”

She brings abortion up again. But where am I?….I have not made a comment in over a day. LOL

My gosh the conversation went on without me.

Now here is the hilarious post from Krista…….”Well, as admin, I obviously want to treat everybody equally, regardless of my own political/social leanings.’

LMAO…to funny to comment on. Equal obviously means something different to you than it does to me.

Finally I make a comment a day later. I start reading from my last post...

I address what Mary said a day earlier. Mary said,“ Making a case scripturally to change our abortion laws or to support them is complete nonsense...”

So I follow it up with a discussion about the church and abortion.

So then Mary says this, “Diane, people like you are the reason we have so much violence based on organized religion in this world...if more people were compassionate and open-minded, our world would be far more peaceful...”

Is this a person attack or what? Not a word from the President.

And if that is not enough Krista our moderator you know the one who is fair and honest and wants things equal…. rubs this one in even further.

” I know I'M certainly feeling loved by Diane. How about the rest of you girls?

(Just teasing you a little, Diane...)”

Kidding? Not on your life. LOL

So this is Carols rant…..”Just putting in my 2 cents that perhaps if we want threads to stay on topic, posts that have nothing the hell to do with the original topic in any way should just be deleted. I am very interested in debates and not at all asking for opposing viewpoints to be censored. But I am really fucking sick and tired of every single fucking post being about abortion. THERE IS A WHOLE GOD DAMN THREAD DEDICATED TO IT. Keep it there for christsakes!!! I am here in this thread to discuss what Helen Thomas said, the Jewish lobby in America, the Palestinian question and any other issue that might even be slightly related. But not abortion again!!!! And I couldn't care less (seriously) about what the bible has to say about it. Fuck the bible.”

Profanity, blasphemy,…….And a lack of respect to those who are Christian. She says things to provoke and then sits back and wonders why people get upset. And poor Carole says she wants to debate in a civil way. Oh we know Carole we know. You just proved that point.

Then Krista you like the good friend you are, pat Carol on the back…..GOOD JOB
Carol. good job.

You want to do something but you don’t know what………then you do not have the guts to call me out as the one who this is all about, so you pretend.

Pamela gives you encouragement and says, “Krista - I think it's perfectly appropriate to delete pet topics that are not part what is being discussed. Especially when they are thrown out as trump cards to shut down discussion. I appreciate your moderating this discussion group.”

Yes Krista do it honey. The only thing is Pammy, I did not talk about abortion in this conversation but to answer peoples questions. I was gone an entire day while they discussed it. And they threw insults my way while they were doing it, and Krista the good and fair moderator sat back and did nothing.

So Laura says that my posts are hostile……again not mentioning one damn thing about anyone elses.


I NEVER DRAGGED THIS CONVERSATION TOWARDS ABORTION. If you go back and open up your eyes you would see that I only responded to comments someone made about it.

So Krista said, “Diane, what you are doing with abortion does NOT fall under that umbrella. I do not want to single you out, but right now you really ARE the only one who is doing this, and you are doing so quite egregiously.”

What did I do in this conversation Krista? I think you should go back and reread the thread. And you are singling me out and you know it…you admitted that to me yesterday. I won’t even say what happened next in our private conversation, but I would not agree to it.

You say you will be fair. As I said……..and as you can see the conversations I have posted just in this thread alone..... that will propably not happen…you selectively read and you will selectively discipline.

Johnny - posted on 06/16/2010

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So, my pet issue is religion. It's stupidity, pointlessness, inanity, mind-numbing, judgmental, and irrational qualities particularly. I especially feel this way about the "big 3" of the west, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, but there are many others that fit so well. I have no issue or bone to pick with spirituality and personal faith. My problem, my irritation, the issue that constantly nags me with the ever present delusional rantings of its followers is religion. Discuss.

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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I think that maybe, Diane, every time you discuss abortion, I will discuss with you health care...that seems reasonable...ttys



and I think that everybody else should do so too...whenever Diane mentions abortion...I will mention healthcare...what will you mention?



Although...if you talk about abortion on the ABORTION thread...I will be happy to discuss abortion with you on a logical and reasonable level of discussion.

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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I think that illegal immigrants who give birth in the U.S. should be given a short line to citizenship...discuss

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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I think that Israel is over stepping their boundaries in the middle east...discuss

Isobel - posted on 06/15/2010

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I think that BP should be held responsible for everybody that has lost loved ones or wages over the oil spill in the gulf coast...discuss.

Krista - posted on 06/15/2010

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And I was trying to not single you out by name because I DO intend to apply the policy evenly. However right now, you are the only one who keeps insisting on steering threads towards her own pet causes.

And this isn't about "mentioning" abortion, Diane. It isn't even ABOUT abortion. If you were equally obsessed about bottle-caps or the state of British currency, and dragged that into every thread, it would be just as tiresome, and I would have found the same need to apply an across-the-board policy in order to deal with it.

And you were not just "mentioning" abortion in that Helen Thomas thread. You brought it up, seven comments in to the thread (after calling us all a bunch of Jew-haters). Mary Elizabeth replied very briefly, saying that her religion should have no place in politics. Then, everybody went BACK to talking about Israel and Palestine. And lo and behold, you start talking about abortion again, and then AGAIN in your very next comment. It's happened time and time again on so many threads -- you just keep insisting on dragging the conversation back around to abortion or to illegal immigration. And I cannot believe that you can't see the difference between "mentioning" something, and what it is that you are doing.

I do not WANT to ban you. I like having a diversity of opinions on here. In fact, the only reason I haven't banned you before now is BECAUSE I want the conservatives to stick around so that we have a broad diversity of opinions. But jeez, Diane...you are not making things easy at all.

Krista - posted on 06/15/2010

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Actually, that's a good idea, Diane. This thread can just be an "open thread" -- we haven't had any of those, and they're a good way to just say whatever is on our minds.

Thank you.

Oh, and just for the record, you were more than welcome to keep responding in the Helen Thomas thread. But that conversation WAS getting badly derailed into abortion, so I don't think I was being unreasonable in trying to get things back on-topic, especially where most everybody else wanted it to stay on topic as well.

And I don't flog. Not my style. :)

Diane - posted on 06/15/2010

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I made a conversation place where anything could be discussed without getting a slap on hand. You can talk about anything here. What is wrong with that? I simply replied to people on the other conversation where I was banned from bring the subject up.



We can talk about anything here.....and go with the wind.....not having to worry about someone with ruler in hand.



You do not get it so I will say it again.





My reply to people on the threat Helen would have gotten me a warning right?....I had to address the people who addressed me about abortion somewhere. I started this so that if the conversation veered off, it would be ok.



We can talk about anything here and not worry about the consequences.

I started this conversation.........and I did not specify what could or could not be talked about.



You have a problem with that?

Diane - posted on 06/15/2010

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Krista said,

“After some thought, I have decided that I am going to pin this thread. This will be the thread in which we discuss any abortion-related questions/debates/arguments/thoughts."

I am addressing this here because I had to leave the Helen Thomas thread I am sure you understand why.

But what you meant was.........Lets silence Diane and make it a no no to mention abortion anywhere. That would be a great way to get rid of her and abortion. Why didn't you have the guts to mention me by name? Was it your attempt to look fair and balances?

But to clarify let me get this straight ………the word abortion can’t be mentioned anywhere without the post getting taken off?

Like if I said, "Liberals have always been pro-abortion, socialized health care etc.” My post would be taken off? LMAO

And how do we know that you dish out the warnings in a fair manner? I guess we don't. One day if we get on and all the conservatives are gone and all the liberals are left.....that would show us wouldn't it?

I am sorry but I do not think that there is any way in hell you can be unbiased because YOU HAVE ALREADY SHOWN BIAS towards this topic and others.

And how about the people here my dear who send insults my way? You going to warn them? I doubt it. You are going to make it impossible to debate this…and what you are doing is silencing those who you disagree with. No free speech. I have been very careful to not throw insults at people and have been very quiet about those thrown at me. It has been me against the entire lot of you with the exception of a few who on the pro-life side who have just hopped aboard.

Why don’t you just call me out by name Krista because you are certainly not talking about anyone else here that's for sure?

ALISON P…
if you condone even others getting an abortion and you do not stand for the life of the unborn, you are pro-choice I’m sorry. If there is something wrong with abortion then you should stand up for life, all life not just some. Are you afraid to do that, that you might have someone bash you or criticize you for your beliefs? How can you just look the other way? Do you think your position is some sort of a compromise to make yourself feel good? I just do not get it. Would you also drive someone to get an abortion? You are not getting it so ……..would that be ok?

You said, “I don't think anyone can force a woman to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, but I can't go so far as to call myself pro-choice because there's too much evidence to suggest that women are using abortion for convenience rather than desperation and even as a form of birth control. For those who think that education and free birth control is the answer, I can tell you that birth control is free and education is plentiful in the UK and it is now the abortion capital of Europe.”

So no one can force a woman to carry a baby……then you also believe abortion should be legal throughout the entire pregnancy, right? Honey you are pro-choice in every sense of the word. You know it’s wrong…….but you will not stand up for what you believe is right and moral. Your vote is the same as someone who is pro-abortion. What difference does it make to you if some woman wants to abort because she doesn’t know who the father is, or she has too many kids, or it’s the wrong sex. You said you do not believe you should be able to stop a woman from killing. You are pro-choice. You are giving the woman the option. Why do you care what evidence there is for life?

Abortion today is used as a form of birth control. The majority of women who get them have multiple abortions. It is costly birth control, but it works………..because it kills every time.

ME - posted on 06/15/2010

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There is already an ongoing conversation on abortion...why not post it there...and REALLY make this post about ANYTHING and not just another post about abortion...I'd say we have enough of those...

Diane - posted on 06/15/2010

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I would like since I can no longer answer peoples posts in the Helen Thomas conversation without fear of being banned or warned or flogged.... finish up here.

Laci………..

you said, “Diane, there are no brain waves that suggest any awareness, it is not conscious, hasn't been conscious, and won't be conscious until roughly halfway through the third trimester which is also a point in which you're going to have to give birth regardless (or have a cesarean) and the fetus is capable of surviving without the mother.”

http://www.abort73.com/abortion/prenatal...

Do you think people in comas are not living by your definition?

They are not conscious……are they? And abortions are done through the third trimester. Ever hear of Dr. Tiller. There are many others like him. If you want it done…it can be done.
“When it becomes a CONSCIOUS BEING I no longer believe abortion is an option, unless there is a serious medical issue. When you find a doctor who claims that a fetus before the third trimester has brain waves suggestive of consciousness you let me know.”


It might not be able to talk to you or do math problems…but it can feel, move, suck its thumb….didn’t you feel those things when you were pregnant? You need to read what the scientific community has to say about the life in the womb. So what you’re saying here….is that you are pro-abortion through the middle of the third trimester. Am I right?

“ But you won’t, because they are essentially a vegetable. The brain waves prior to the third trimester exist to regulate the bodily systems and do not suggest ANY sort of conscious thought. It is alive, as an amoeba is alive. It is human because it possesses DNA, I'm sure you really believe you are making some substantial point as all prolifer's think they do when they hear someone agree with them on those terms. The difference is I do not think a fetus is a BEING until it is conscious, at which point I am against abortion. Now, I'm pretty sure I've repeated my point at least three times in one post so if you have any further questions, I'm terribly sorry but I won't be responding. ;)”

You make me sick. My niece was born at 22 weeks. She did not coo…did not open her eyes for months, did not have a bridge on her nose, had to live in the hospital for five months…….weighed 1 pound and had over thirty surgeries to save her young life. You call her a nothing. You say she was nothing more than an amoeba. Your view is so warped about life. She graduated from high school a few weeks ago with a 4.6 grade point, with honors. She will go to Pepperdine next year to study psychology. Can you imagine…………..this thing you say does not have a chance because it is a nothing.

I know for a fact that she could feel pain, because they did most the surgeries without pain medicine. She moved and she could see light, because she moved towards it.

You guys are all over the board with pro-choice views. You have no idea when life starts, you know nothing about fetal development……you avoid using the word kill because God forbid that would make you look bad. You have no clue; you just believe that women have the right to kill.

Let me tell you sweetie…….my NIECE WAS NOT A VEGETABLE. She was a living breathing human child who happened to be born at 22 weeks. And our family thanks God every day for the people, the doctors in that hospital who fought for her chance to live. God help us had there been pro-choicers at her bedside who thought she was nothing more than a vegetable.

“Of course murder is illegal. Murder is unlawful killing by definition. Since abortion is legal, it isn't murder. I can also kill anyone who enters my home y the laws of my state, am I killing something? Absolutely, is it murder? nope. Completely legal. Sodomy is also legal- as it should be. We do not follow god’s laws as a society, so no god's laws are not relevant to me.”

If a heart is stopped without its permission what is it called? And you are right; killing the unborn is legal in our country for the most part. But tell me…if you want to self abortion your baby at home…….is abortion legal in that sense? We have laws that say a woman on death row can’t be executed because she is carrying a baby. Scott Peterson was convicted on second degree murder for his son. So our laws send mixed messages and is not consistent. Our government cannot give the unborn personhood; PP works to stop this…that is why they do not want women to see their babies sonogram before they kill it.

Krista said, “Diane, your comparison to other crimes is faulty. First of all, there is absolutely no good legitimate reason to drink and drive, beat our spouse or beat our kids. There is absolutely no benefit to anybody to be gained by legalizing those particular actions. Sodomy laws? I don't agree with those. I think consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want behind closed doors.’

I do not believe it is. For you there is not a good enough reason but for many there is. Who are you to tell them that what they believe is wrong? You tell me that I have no right to tell you or any other woman that killing unborn babies is wrong….you base this of course on what you deem right and wrong. But for me killing by abortion is wrong based on what I believe is wrong. Were the people who thought slavery was wrong when it was legal, wrong in their thinking? Your post was based on your opinion. I know many people as you probably have too in your life, known people who drink but have never causes an accident or death. They think they can handle it and they do.

Society says sodomy is wrong and immoral period….Why don’t you lean this way seeing that you believe abortion is ok because that is legal as well? What is wrong with sodomy and what is right with abortion?

“So how do we, in practical terms, police that? The life of the mother one, for example -- the physician can attest that the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life. But, at what level of threat do we draw the line? Does it have to be a 100% guarantee that she will die if she continues with the pregnancy? Or is a 95% guarantee okay? What about 75%?’

We police it like we did for the hundreds of years before it was legal. You need to research Krista. Guttmaucher is a pro-abort polling service. They even state that less than 1% of ALL ABORTIONS are done to save the life of the mother and abortion by rape and incest. Less than 1%. Most times both can be saved. So no physician could get away with this one, not if we had agencies that required that a doctor be responsible for what he does. And if he lies and gets caught then he pays the price. The cases that fall into these categories are so small that to allow abortion to be legal just because of them is ridiculous and wrong.

“And with rape, can the woman only get an abortion if she's actually filed a police report, claiming she was raped? And if that's the case, then how do you prevent desperate women making false claims of rape (and ruining innocent mens' lives) in order to "qualify" for an abortion? And, if a woman obtains an illegal abortion, then for how long should she go to jail? If it's murder, as you say, then would you sentence her the same as if she'd gunned down an adult in the street?”

Abortion takes a life for rape babies and I do not believe that the child should suffer because of one act of violence. How is the child responsible? Two wrongs do not make a right, period. I believe if doctors were held liable and if caught, disbarred….that would solve a lot of problems. The majority of women would have their babies. The rate of deaths by self induced abortion were low before 1973. More people were careful getting pregnant and took the sex act more seriously.
You say I have no ideas as to the penalties of abortion should it become illegal again. But it has been illegal longer in our country than it was legal. It’s not a new thing here we are talking about. We go back to the laws that were in place before 1973.
“As well, you left out one fact. Your statistics report the number of LEGAL abortions in Poland, as there is still that loophole for mother's life/health and rape/incest. Your statistics do not make any mention of the number of illegal abortions performed. As well, one thing to keep in mind is that according to the Guttmacher Institute, the lowest rates of abortion are in Western and Northern Europe, where there tend to be very few restrictions on abortion (and not coincidentally, where there tends to be comprehensive sex-ed and much less religious influence on the state.)”

I am sure they could never get an accurate number on illegal abortions because no doctor will report them and face prosecution. That is why abortion stats are suspect a lot of the time. You do not hear about the botched cases, the cases that happen in clinics with substandard health standards, the doctors who were not certified to do the abortion or the anesthetic….they are settled out of court for obvious reasons as I stated before. Did you know most abortion doctors who administer the anesthetic are NOT certifide to do so? If there are cases where there are problems it’s with the stuff given to the woman to knock her out while the killing takes place.

I ask you again Krista…….why reduce abortion if there is nothing wrong with it. And like I have asked others here……..if there is something immoral or wrong about it, then how could you possibly condone it. We do not want the same things, if you are pro-choice and you condone anyone getting an abortion even for rape. I am against abortion unless it is to save the life of the mother…and in this case the abortion does not have to look like it does now. I want abortion illegal, not just getting the numbers down lower. A life is a life.

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