Dems are going to allow ALL of our taxes to go up . . . .

Pamela - posted on 08/06/2010

To which we reply with a resounding YES!

Krista - posted on 08/06/2010

Thanks, Laura. :) Shall we create another open thread?

Isobel - posted on 08/05/2010

off topic gestapo here...on with your business ;P

I have been notified by Diane that I must be even handed in mentioning when people are off topic. :)

Pamela - posted on 08/05/2010

Now that sounds like a man worth keeping:o) You may have answered this on another post but I can't remember: where do you teach?

ME - posted on 08/05/2010

He also made fried scallops and fondue...this is how we celebrate the end of summer term in my house!!!

Pamela - posted on 08/05/2010

Hey Mary - we'll all be over for dinner:o)

ME - posted on 08/05/2010

"So do I. I don’t want animals or children abused. I do not want homeless on the streets, or the elderly to sit in nursing homes sick and lonely. I do not want anyone to lose their homes or go bankrupt. I don’t want a lot of things to happen…but its life and people are born selfish. Look at any child with his toys. We might grow up but does that selfishness always go away? No there have been and always will be people who fall through the cracks. You still can’t force people to give or to help. You and I might want to help them …but you can’t force others to follow suit unless they want to. This is not freedom."

From a child development standpoint this is not true...Babies as young as 6 months show "sharing" and compassion toward care takers and family members...I know my two children fit that statistic...I think society (particularly this one) teaches us to be selfish, greedy assholes...I don't think most people, particularly most mothers feel this way unless they've been influenced by capitalism in all the negative ways that system is capable of exerting influence...

now...my husband is making me dinner...home made ceviche...and a little white wine...not bad, not bad at all...

ME - posted on 08/05/2010

"Oh I know that my dear….they are NOT LISTENING TO ANYONE AND DOING WHAT THEY WANT. "

I almost took that comment out, because I knew you wouldn't find it as witty as I did...oh well...

ME - posted on 08/05/2010

perfect little laura….always says kind things

I found something I agree with!!! I might not have gone quite so far as "perfect", but she's pretty awesome ;-)

Gianina - posted on 08/05/2010

From what I know about the Bush Tax cuts, there were 5 yrs of solid growth on jobs. By mid 2001 & end of 2007 = 5.2 millions job created. By 2008 is when the recession began, when Dem became the majority.

I was referring to small business really. I can't really defend big corporation yet but I do know that it's mandatory that they give 'big' to charities ( for the community).

tax cuts for small businesses would be nice.

Isobel - posted on 08/05/2010

Thank you Diane, that was the nicest thing you've ever said to (about) me :D ...I'm glad to see that my efforts to remain on topic and be nice to people have been noticed.

When I make a mistake, I admit it and apologize, like most adults I know. I always think it must be incredibly difficult to be right ALL the time.

Krista - posted on 08/05/2010

Do you really think that's the case though? From what I can tell, the Bush tax cuts didn't prevent much in the way of layoffs. And as I posted in another thread somewhere, because of tax loopholes, most corporations operating in the U.S. pay absolutely NO income tax on their profits -- but has it really been helping the economy? Heck, if those corporations would even go from paying 0% to 1%, it would inject quite a large chunk of change into the economy.

Obviously I'm not talking about small businesses here. I think that small businesses should get as many tax cuts as possible. I'm talking about the multi-million dollar corporations.

Gianina - posted on 08/05/2010

I believe that 'cut spending' is the right thing to do. As for increasing taxes, will just increase unemployment. Businesses would lay off people just to meet the high taxes. And what's worst is for businesses moving to other States where taxes are lower.

It would have been better if they used the stimulus to help the unemployment funds and to pay off debts.

Pamela - posted on 08/04/2010

”Hey at least I admitted I was off topic:o)” - that was actually my attempt at levity. That's all. I find humor absolutely necessary when discussing politics. I also try not to take myself too seriously and I always try to stay teachable. Present a case with a rational, logical argument giving me facts, and you just might change my mind.



@ Diane: Perhaps if you were less antagonistic towards those who may disagree with you on issues, they would be less antagonistic towards you? Because you often set the tone and your tone is very antagonistic - especially towards those who have differing views.



Maybe if you didn't presume that everyone who doesn't embrace your ideas are evil communists/ socialists/ facists who love William Ayers, as well as all terrorists and want to see the destruction of America, folks might not get quite so...angry back. Because that is the function of propaganda. Propaganda always always always seeks to demonize the other - whoever that "other" might be. Whether liberal or conservative.



I don't necessarily disagree with your point of view on federally funded abortion. I do however strongly disagree with your assessment of Obama.



I also agree with you that war is sometimes a necessary thing.



I don't however agree that extending our American empire is a good thing. Because the Iraqi war was just that: an expansion into a country that had something we needed - oil. The reason I say that is because there was not one, not one single solitary Iraqi on those planes that flew into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. 15 of them were Saudi Arabian:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/...



http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com/



The other 4 were: 1 Egyptian (Atta); 2 Arab Emirates (al-Shehhi and Banihammad; 1 Lebanese (Jarrah). Nope. No Iraqis to be found within the ranks of the 9/11 terrorists.



No WMD's were to be found in Iraq either.



The point being that I do not make the presupposition that all of our wars are just. I actually agree that we should look with a critical eye at our government and politicians - but that also means taking a critical look at ourselves, because we the people are the government.



Many of us, many, many of us, wanted the healthcare bill and are really irritated at how unbelievably watered down it had to be in order to pass the House and Senate. Please stop telling us how the American people didn't want it. Because we are a part of the American people and we did want it. Sure there are of those who didn't - but there are just as many (if not more) who did.



The thing is the conservative movement had its turn and really mucked things up big time. We have a colossal recession on our hands because of a war that went unpaid for, tax cuts that went unpaid for and regulatory banking laws that were discarded. This was not on Obama's watch.



Our tax money went mercenaries, private corporations like Halliburton and KBR who made a boatload of money rebuilding a country that we destroyed (and Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton until he was VP by the way - could there be a conflict of interest there?).



Were any conservatives screaming from the rooftops when our TAX MONEY went to the private corporations like KBR, Halliburton and Blackwater? Eric Prince is an extremely rich rich man who got richer from our TAX MONEY. Those bastards OVERCHARGED the government (read us, cause we are the government and that was our money). Our own soldiers were paid very little compared to what the mercenaries and private contractors were paid. We had soldiers fighting in a war while their families had to use food stamps. Didn't hear too much coming from FOX News about that now did we? In fact, we were told, time and time again, to shut up and swallow.



http://hamptonroads.com/2010/07/blackwat...



http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0329...



At least Obama got THE RIGHT COUNTRY when he sent us to Afghanistan. Do I want the Afghani war? No. But we got it. Hopefully we'll do what ever the hell needs to be done and get out.



Not doing a war would be a super duper way of cutting spending too...



Regarding federally funded abortions - do what many pacifists do: figure out the percentage of your taxes that goes to abortion and withhold it, writing a respectful letter to the IRS explaining your moral stance. Peaceniks have been doing this for years in regards to tax money going to the military. You might go to jail, but frankly, if enough people did it, maybe the government would respond ultimately in a positive way.



Nixon said, "Let them protest as long as they pay their taxes". If you want to hit 'em in the gonads, quit paying that portion of your taxes.

Diane - posted on 08/04/2010

Mary Elizabeth said, “The Administration isn't paying attention to anything YOU say...I swear...I mean you personally...they've never heard of you...there isn't some government conspiracy to get you Diane”

Oh I know that my dear….they are NOT LISTENING TO ANYONE AND DOING WHAT THEY WANT. Polls show that the country DOES NOT WANT THE HEALTH CARE THEY SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS. Polls show that the majority of the country BACKS ARIZONA. Why else are states following us?

Obama does not care. I may be just one person but there are many more like me all over this country.

Mary Elizabeth said, “We just want to have an intelligent conversation about REAL issues, we keep waiting for the fear-mongering to stop and the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts to shut up and get out of the way so that conversation can begin, and we can get down to the work of solving this nations MANY problems...the abusive rhetoric from the right isn't getting us anywhere...”

And what are you adding to it? I am talking about real issues here and have been for months. I can’t help that you have been away. Please do join in. If you think I am going to shut up your crazy. NOT ON YOUR LIFE. I am an American and no left wing radical is going to get away with silencing me, no you or anyone else. If you do not like what I say….BLOCK ME, IGNORE ME…do whatever it takes…because until I am banned…I am not leaving.

Pam…….”Hey at least I admitted I was off topic:o)”

So that makes a difference does it? LOL

So let me get this straight…you can railroad the conversation go off topic and nothing happens just because you admit it. And I have to sit out a week, cause I kept bringing up a topic you girls were sick of hearing about. LOL

Yea I get it now…Pam.


“War is repugnant to our creator because he is about life. But not just one type of life - he's about all of life. All life on this planet belongs to him. In fact, this planet belongs to him. He made it; it's his. Our church logo states: "Love God. Love People. Period". Other church's have "Love God. Love People. Care For The Planet". Why? Because loving people means also caring for this planet. Healthy planet = healthy people.”

Our creator is not just about love. SAVED PEOPLE ARE HEALTHY PEOPLE.

God did advocate for peace but….“Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9)

But Christ also said that war and conflicts will always be a part of the world we live in. He even talked about it.

“You will hear of wars of rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (Matthew 24:6,7).

There have been times when war was the answer….like ending slavery like stopping Hitler.

God ordered Joshua and his armies to drive the Canaanites out completely from the promised land. There were no table discussions, no peace treaties signed…. God wanted the Israelites to let their swords do the talking. There are just wars.

And I am sure we also disagree on what a just war is as we disagree on everything else. A person has every right to protect his property and himself if attacked. Governments have that same right. Obama as head of our government has the responsibility to keep us safe and protected. He is in charge and the borders and everything in it are HIS responsibility. That is how God sees it. We have a right to go to war against those who are illegally trespassing. Obama is not doing his job, he is allowing politics to get in the way.

God would also want us to help other nations that can’t defend themselves. We should defend and come to the defense of our allies. There are many legitimate reasons for going to war. Any Christian who is in the military should do what God commands….to pray for the wisdom to do what is right. He should always weigh the command against the scriptures….he still has an obligation to obey God first. “obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29),

I am going to take your post and insert what I find offensive to make my own.

Pam said, “I have no problem with taxes. I have no problem with my taxes being used to help people during hard times of unemployment. I have more trouble with my taxes being used to fund wars and the eternal (being sarcastic here) military complex that makes a lot of profit from those wars. Blackwater - now Xe -actually got a lot of tax-payer money.’

I have no problem paying taxes. I have no problem with a portion of my taxes going to help people, like the elderly, sick and handicapped. I have a real problem with my taxes going to slaughter the unborn child in the womb. This is contrary to scriptures. And like the scripture I posted….God comes first not the rules of man. And our abortion laws are inhuman and they violate every principle in the bible.

I did not bring up abortion as a topic to discuss so don’t get your panties in a wad. I brought it up to make a point that taxes go towards providing money for things I find appaulling.

“By the way, the conservative value of personal responsibility is an excellent addition to any community value system. I completely do agree with the idea that there must be a personal sense of responsibility within all of us. But what if we've not been reared that way? What if we've never seen it nor been mentored in it? This is where communities - religious and otherwise - must come together and teach people lacking those qualities. So really, we all have to work together. That's what makes a democracy work.”

I believe God gave us free will and freedom comes from this. We either can accept Him or reject Him. I help people because I want too help them, not because I am forced. We must take personal responsibility for our actions. Just because someone has not been reared that way, does not mean they should be forced. The people who want to help must take up the slack.

Pamela said, “I want them to succeed and find work. It costs us way more, in the long run, to allow multitudes to fall through the cracks of our society than to help them on the front end of things. Why wouldn't I want to help them? Why not?”

So do I. I don’t want animals or children abused. I do not want homeless on the streets, or the elderly to sit in nursing homes sick and lonely. I do not want anyone to lose their homes or go bankrupt. I don’t want a lot of things to happen…but its life and people are born selfish. Look at any child with his toys. We might grow up but does that selfishness always go away? No there have been and always will be people who fall through the cracks. You still can’t force people to give or to help. You and I might want to help them …but you can’t force others to follow suit unless they want to. This is not freedom.

Pam said, “American individualism is a blight on this landscape - this "I got mine, so screw everybody else" is a myth that is killing this society. Not Obama or George Bush or anybody else. Our own individual selfishness is doing quite a nice job all by itself. (Of course, there are other contributing factors).”

“I got mine….so screw everybody”

….the cry of a secular society. We are not a Christian nation, so why would this be shocking. We Christians know what we should do, what we should give and how we are to live. God commands us, there is no debating that fact. The Great Commission was an ORDER.

But when you live in a secular society……a society that rejects Christ…..who are we to tell them what to do, or force them to give to anyone?

Pam said, “From there we went spiraling into discussions about racism. And Dianne, you helped us all go down that lovely rabbit hole.’

Hey Pam……I could care less if we wander….LOL I was punished for wandering and not staying on topic remember? Everyone does it……and when you talk about government and social issues like we do on a daily basis here they sometimes run together. I brought abortion up in this topic………..will I get slapped again. I also brought illegals up again……..will I get slapped for it.

LIke abortion, borders, government spending, health care, war are not issues that are popular today...?

I could care less……but there are rules and if I am expected to follow them, then you should as well.

Pam said, “How can it (war) ever be good?”

It was a war that stopped Hitler…it was a war that ended slavery….it was a war that ousted Sadam from killing more innocent people…..and you say that nothing good came from wars?

Again look at scriptures and what God says about wars.

Curious as to how you feel about police. Should they not carry guns Pam? Should they turn the cheek everytime someone bad attacks someone good? Do you think God would want no protection for the righteous?

Laura said, “I really was talking to everyone, it looked like it was only to Diane...I just don't want to get back to the point where every thread is just a fight about everything (and nothing at all)”

Excuses excuses……..perfect little laura….always says kind things….always stays on topic.

Carole said, “Haven't read the comments... but don't you guys think that perhaps you need to stop cutting taxes until you get your government houses in order, federally, at the state level, and even in many municipalities? It doesn't seem like there are many ways left to cut spending. Unless you all plan to drive hummers to get yourselves over the potholes.”

I HAVE GOT A GREAT IDEA CAROL………remove all the illegals from the country and look at the money we would save !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This would be a super duper way for cutting spending.

Johnny - posted on 08/02/2010

Haven't read the comments... but don't you guys think that perhaps you need to stop cutting taxes until you get your government houses in order, federally, at the state level, and even in many municipalities? It doesn't seem like there are many ways left to cut spending. Unless you all plan to drive hummers to get yourselves over the potholes.

Sara - posted on 08/02/2010

Open thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pamela - posted on 08/02/2010

Laura, let's start a thread and we can debate each other and go off on whatever rabbit trail suits us:o)

Isobel - posted on 08/02/2010

Diane is just referring to the fact that she was banned for a week because she kept hijacking every thread and making them about illegal immigration and abortion...no matter what the topic was.

I really was talking to everyone, it looked like it was only to Diane...I just don't want to get back to the point where every thread is just a fight about everything (and nothing at all)

I'm not even a mod, I just like to debate here, and if it just turns into a bunch of fights, then why bother.

Pamela - posted on 08/01/2010

Oh and one more thing: If you're serious about staying on topic Dianne, then don't respond when I or anyone else goes off topic. As I stated in an earlier post: I was addressing the Joe Wilson incident and attempting to explain why so many regarded his outburst as racist.

I was actually responding to a post between Krista and Laura.

From there we went spiraling into discussions about racism. And Dianne, you helped us all go down that lovely rabbit hole.

Now I will respond to a question you asked me (and sorry, it's not on topic). But you asked.

"Did you think the North was wrong for attacking the South in order to abolish slavery? I mean Pam was this a good thing or bad? What was this war about"?

That is actually an excellent question, though not easily answered. The wording of your question is quite interesting because it contains an inaccuracy:

Mainly the North did not attack the South. It was the other way around. Time for a history lesson.

First seven Southern states declared their independence from the North upon the election of Abraham Lincoln. They declared themselves "The Confederate States of America". Jefferson Davis led them in hostilities against the United States (or the Union).

Lincoln had campaigned against slavery and its expansion beyond the states where it already existed.

Both the outgoing administration of President James Buchanan and Lincoln's incoming administration rejected the legality of secession, considering it rebellion.

Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a US military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina.

Lincoln responded by calling for a volunteer army from each state, leading to declarations of secession by four more Southern slave states equaling a total of eleven states wanting independence from the Union.

Both sides raised armies as the Union assumed control of the border states early in the war and established a naval blockade.

In September 1862, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made ending slavery in the South a war goal, and dissuaded the British from intervening.

This is an interesting article on the philosophy that would birth the Civil War:

http://www.historynet.com/john-c-calhoun...

So it was not a Northern Aggression as is presented by predominately southern revisionists.

Was the war right? Should it have been fought? No, because the South should never have pulled out of the Union. The reason Lincoln went to war was because of the South's secession from the United States which he and James Buchanen regarded as a rebellion. And it was after the SOUTH that started the hostilities.

I don't think war is ever right. I think it is sometimes thrust upon us and necessary to respond. Stopping Hitler was a necessary thing. But understand this, the U.S. didn't enter WWII until after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 - we declared war on Japan and went to war in the Pacific. Japan was actually infiltrating American soil (as in the Aleutian Islands). We only entered the European front when Hitler declared on the U.S. four days after Pearl Harbor. Most Americans were content in allowing Europe to deal with Hitler. But almost all Americans wanted revenge on Japan's attack on our own soil. Not unlike the sentiments many of us felt after 9/11.

Many Americans didn't fully comprehend the extent of what Hitler was doing. My father has memories of friends and family expressing disbelief that anyone could do something so evil. My own Granddad didn't believe it until he entered a camp in Belgium as an Army Medic and saw it for himself.

Some - when hearing the reports coming through - thought that maybe Hitler had a good idea. Some who thought that way were actually in the Senate. Anti-Semitism was not unheard of here in the U.S. (and still isn't). My sister's husband's family, who are Jewish, have distinct memories of places where Jews were not permitted to go - yep, right here in the lovely U.S. of A.

But that all aside. Do I think war is good? No. I don't think it's ever good. I don't think it's ever right. Atrocities are committed on the innocent (or even the not-so-innocent). Too many die. How can it ever be good?

It just sometimes lands in our laps. Some people perhaps want it in hopes of winning their agendas. Interestingly, the South and their anti-federal government and pro-slavery views, were in the distinct minority. They were an agrarian society whose backbone was slavery. Sentiments were changing towards slavery - the abolitionists groups were gaining much ground within the Federal government. The South wanted to expand slavery into the new states coming into the Union (like Missouri). Buchanen and Lincoln did not want that. When they blocked part of Missouri from being pro-slavery, that's when the South chose secession. The rest is history.

Pamela - posted on 08/01/2010

Hey at least I admitted I was off topic:o)



There will always be war, but let's not promote it right? There will always be taxes. Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" as he pulled a coin out of the mouth of a fish. But remember who made that fish.



War is repugnant to our creator because he is about life. But not just one type of life - he's about all of life. All life on this planet belongs to him. In fact, this planet belongs to him. He made it; it's his. Our church logo states: "Love God. Love People. Period". Other church's have "Love God. Love People. Care For The Planet". Why? Because loving people means also caring for this planet. Healthy planet = healthy people.



I have no problem with taxes. I have no problem with my taxes being used to help people during hard times of unemployment. I have more trouble with my taxes being used to fund wars and the eternal (being sarcastic here) military complex that makes a lot of profit from those wars. Blackwater - now Xe -actually got a lot of tax-payer money.



That bothers me way more than allowing the government to use tax money to extend unemployment benefits or help with healthcare.



Because here's the thing: I really like to extend benefit of the doubt to people out of work - who've worked all their lives and because of an economic downturn, lost their jobs and need help. My automatic assumption is not that they're lazy leeches sucking off the system. Are there some who fit that description? Of course there are. But I don't believe they are in the majority as many Republicans are happy to present them.



By the way, the conservative value of personal responsibility is an excellent addition to any community value system. I completely do agree with the idea that there must be a personal sense of responsibility within all of us. But what if we've not been reared that way? What if we've never seen it nor been mentored in it? This is where communities - religious and otherwise - must come together and teach people lacking those qualities. So really, we all have to work together. That's what makes a democracy work.



I want them to succeed and find work. It costs us way more, in the long run, to allow multitudes to fall through the cracks of our society than to help them on the front end of things. Why wouldn't I want to help them? Why not?



American individualism is a blight on this landscape - this "I got mine, so screw everybody else" is a myth that is killing this society. Not Obama or George Bush or anybody else. Our own individual selfishness is doing quite a nice job all by itself. (Of course, there are other contributing factors).



Hey! I'm on topic! Holy Moly! Mostly:o)

ME - posted on 08/01/2010

"It is and I for one am scared to death. The hate in the country is escalating. A threat?

Well yes, I think the administration is threatening because if you question it…you get a label. "-Diane

From whom? Rachael Maddow? The Administration isn't paying attention to anything YOU say...I swear...I mean you personally...they've never heard of you...there isn't some government conspiracy to get you Diane...
...and, The HATE is all coming from the conservatives...so, if you don't like it, stop putting it out there...We just want to have an intelligent conversation about REAL issues, we keep waiting for the fear-mongering to stop and the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts to shut up and get out of the way so that conversation can begin, and we can get down to the work of solving this nations MANY problems...the abusive rhetoric from the right isn't getting us anywhere...

ME - posted on 08/01/2010

"I am not even for this war anymore and it was my hope (like the millions who believed Obama on this) that the one thing Obama would make good on was ending it" - Diane

President Obama promised to escalate the war in Afghanistan...is it really that hard to remember what happened two - three years ago? It was the one area where many liberals disagreed with him from the beginning...

Diane - posted on 07/31/2010

“When you suggest that we are the same as Obama...and that a war is coming...exactly how do you think we should take that...you are threatening (on behalf of the right fringe) to inflict violence on the left’

I believe there will eventually be a war…and this is scriptural. I don’t care how you take it. I believe down the line …there will be a civil war similar to what happened during Civil War times. I am not threatening anyone for crying out loud. Hey it was suggested to me that I go kill illegals…….and I was told that she was joking, only the woman said she was serious.……so don’t even try to suggest this is anything like what was said to me.


“Once again though, this thread is about TAXES! not racism OR illegal immigration.”

Laura did you forget to remind your friends of that on here?

This is what Pam posted above……..was she on topic? Is this about…..taxes?

Am I not supposed to reply to this? LOL

Pam said, “There's always secession from the Union. Then you could have your nice little right wing world all to yourself. It could be a theocracy. You could redefine the constitution any ole way you want and shove it down everybody's throat. And if you didn't like certain people, well then, you could just deport them to New Mexico or some other state. That way, you wouldn't have to besmirch yourself with people you don't agree with. Why you could have yourself a "new Confederacy".”

Another off topic post of Pams…..

“The whole thing with Joe Wilson was how amazingly inappropriate he was to show the level of disrespect towards the office of president - regardless of whether or not he agreed with or approved of policies being promoted. The reason his outburst was considered racist - well, would he have done it with a white president? Would he have? Did he or anyone else yell "You lie!" at Clinton? The right despised Clinton. But no one stood up and yelled at him during his State of the Union address the way they did Obama. Or was it perhaps because an African American man held the office? I think it is a valid question. Southern States want to fly the Confederate Flag and declare it their right to do so - even though that flag represents very bad things to a whole group of people. Southerners call the Civil War, the "Northern Aggression" and want it called that in textbooks. Occasionally, people hang nooses in trees and act shocked when accused of being racist. So yes, I think there is a little bit of racism going on in the vitriol being vomited at Obama. In my life, I have never ever seen the rage and hate that I've seen these past almost 2 years. It has been an irrational venom devoid of fact but heavy on fancy that has served to poison any meaningful dialogue. I find it interesting that many of those crying "racism" from the rooftops are white, wealthy and sitting in the seat of power.”

Now is this about taxes?

And you just remind me…………..LOL

You can do better than that…..can't you?

Pamela - posted on 07/31/2010

I'm done now. Sorry for the long post.

Pamela - posted on 07/31/2010

Well perhaps I took us off track - sorry ladies. I was addressing the Joe Wilson incident and attempting to explain why so many regarded his outburst racist. I was actually responding to a post between Krista and Laura. From there we went spiraling into discussions about racism.



@ Dianne: "You don’t look or care about the evil people our President has surrounded himself with. You could care less. Ayers is probably a hero to you as is the Black Panthers. Your probably think no doubt that their actions were ok. That says something...and it’s too bad you are so biased that you can’t see what Obama is doing".



The above statement is yours. I responded with:



"By the way, please refrain from telling me what I think. Unless you're god (and you're not) you don't know what I think unless I tell you what I think. This conversation could be a lot more civil if you stopped harping on what you think everyone thinks. Because you get it wrong most times".



I was not saying that you think you're god. I don't for one minute think you think you are. But you have an interesting way of putting words in my mouth that I never said and twisting words I did say into things I certainly never meant. It's strange and makes it very difficult for any dialogue. Very, very Rovian of you. If I get a little sarcastic, it's because I dislike having my words and meanings twisted into something I never stated.



And you, not any one else, brought up let's see...that "this will come down to war and not of words...Can there be peace between Republicans and Democrats? I do not think so, not any more".



How on earth should any of us take that? If half the things you keep saying were even a little bit true, you wouldn't be writing it on a public forum. You might say it privately, or in groups who fully embrace your views, but you wouldn't be saying it on a public forum. But here you are, saying some pretty fascinating things on COM with no consequence except that some of us disagree with you. And have stated why.



You stated "What you said in your next statement is horrible. To say to even ask if I would want to kill someone…shows your true nature. You are the one with the hatred and you are the ones who are closed minded. You are the ones who make fun of my faith on here also that I would be for following the law. You celebrate the law breakers, and anyone with money is just corrupt and horrible".



Read your history Dianne. We're in dangerous waters when we begin to demonize one group (or a couple of groups). Right or Left or Zergonian Freedom Front (okay, there is no Zergonian Freedom Front. I made that up). When a group is rendered "terrorist, evil, communist, immoral etc." we run the risk of opening doors better left locked and barred. Again I'll say it unequivocally, the Democrats are not communists, socialist or any other monstery thing you fear so much. Obama is not evil, he doesn't have a secret agenda. The "Left" by the way, is pissed off at him because of the war in Afghanistan and because he didn't go far enough with healthcare reform. Trust me, the Libs have plenty of criticism for him and I know because I read their articles. If you don't hear it via the mainstream media, well that's because the media is not all that liberal. You'll certainly not hear it on FOX News.



Allow me to remind you again that you are the one who stated that "this will come down to war and not of words". You accuse us of hatred, of celebrating law-breakers, of close-mindedness - and you wonder why you get negative reactions.



Now I will tell you what I think. Do I think Obama is infallible? No - only God is. Do I think Obama does every thing right? No. But do I think he's evil, with an evil agenda to take this country down the road to communism? No I don't. I have probably defended him quite a bit on this forum simply because shit, the attacks on the man are beyond the pale of anything I've ever seen. Am I an Obamaphile? No. I don't put my trust in kings, queens, princes or presidents for that matter. They can have some great ideas but ultimately they go down to the grave and all those ideas go with them.



I do think Obama is doing probably the best he can with a tremendously difficult situation and an enormously contentious senate and house. I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again) - most economists have stated that the TARP (Bush's expenditure) and the Stimulus money that the Obama Administration flushed into our economic system was absolutely necessary to keep this economy from totally tanking into a depression like 1929. So yeah, the deficit is pretty hefty, but it's kept us from totally tanking. In fact, most economists (except for the few on FOX) have complained that Obama didn't do enough.



You want deficit? Renew Bush's tax cuts for the top 10% wealthiest in this nation - you'll see some deficit then. Because those tax cuts do not pay for themselves.



Oh and do I hate the wealthy? No not at all. But I do think that they have just as much responsibility to the common good (and I think we all do - not just the wealthy).

Isobel - posted on 07/31/2010

By the way, it is sounding more and more to me like the right care more about capitalism than democracy...you know that they are different right? There is nothing moral or immoral about an economic THEORY...what becomes immoral is how the people within it twist and pervert it to suit their own selfish wants and needs.



capitalism assumes that it is in the best interest of business people to take care of their stakeholders...because that affects business, but your system (not true capitalism) has not only allowed but encouraged businesses to become so big that the stakeholders don't matter.

Isobel - posted on 07/31/2010

Is "functionally literate" when people clearly know how to read and write but don't comprehend anything they read?

I haven't heard violence or war threatened by anybody other than fringe right groups. The hate and violence is aaaaalllllll yours.

When you suggest that we are the same as Obama...and that a war is coming...exactly how do you think we should take that...you are threatening (on behalf of the right fringe) to inflict violence on the left.

The joke is...your grievances are historically of the left...you've just been brilliantly brainwashed into believing that the ruling class (big corporations and billionaires) are the good guys...I guess they learned something from the french revolution. You guys will be beheading the middle class and the poor while the rich laugh at you.

go ahead, fight your neighbours...yeah, they are what's wrong with your country, not the lobbyists, not the big corporations that are raping and pillaging your planet...yup, the problem is your neighbours. And a guy who tried to give you healthcare HEALTHCARE that bastard! Big pharma is a way better master!

The God thing, was simply a reference to you thinking that you knew her thoughts...not that you act like God...cause you don't.

Once again though, this thread is about TAXES! not racism OR illegal immigration.

By the way this awesome theocracy with a giant wall around it...sounds awesome! If you like that so much, why don't you just move to China...that's what the freemarket states...if a person doesn't like where they are, they should move.

Diane - posted on 07/31/2010

Mary Elizabeth said, “That's terrifying, Diane...and it sounds like a pretty serious threat. I thought that the US was a country where people could live together in peace despite their differences. Do you hope for progressives to die, or do you want to kill us yourself, or would you like to have us deported too???”

It is and I for one am scared to death. The hate in the country is escalating. A threat?

Well yes, I think the administration is threatening because if you question it…you get a label. Because Obama is half black…if you so much as say one thing against him YOU ARE A RACIST.
Obama has caused this single handedly by HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. He has surrounded himself with people who are racist. His actions show that he can’t and will not be impartial. He is all about…the dreams that his father had and will he stop at nothing until he gets what he wants.

His poll numbers are way down because he has lost support mainly from INDEPENDENTS. The United States is changing…like Obama who ran on change. But the change is bad and will probably do irreputable damage. Now races will be pitted against each other and that will only get worse. Had the government secured the border…these issues down in Arizona would not be happening. But neither side will do a darn thing because they want and need the votes. These parties could care less about illegals. They want the Hispanic and minority vote. And because of that, the people in border states are suffering the most.

Can there be peace between Republican and Democrats? I do not think so, not any more.

What you said in your next statement is horrible. To say to even ask if I would want to kill someone…shows your true nature. You are the one with the hatred and you are the ones who are closed minded. You are the ones who make fun of my faith on here also that I would be for following the law. You celebrate the law breakers, and anyone with money is just corrupt and horrible.

You are the ones who are jealous and want the wealth redistributed. Get this honey…I do not want anyone to die, I am not even for this war anymore and it was my hope (like the millions who believed Obama on this) that the one thing Obama would make good on was ending it. I have a lot of family over there. But he didn’t did he? And this month more of our men and women were killed over there MORE THAN ANY OTHER MONTH SINCE THE WAR STARTED OVER NINE YEARS AGO.

I believe down the line there will be another civil war on our soil. It was good that slavery was abolished and the lives that were lost, were not lost in vain. And I think the battle is brewing.
Am I planning it? LOL No I am not.





No responsibility and the blame…..





If you are a citizen then you have a right to be in the United States. If you are not, and you do not have proper documents, then you are breaking the law. THIS IS NATIONAL LAW and it should like our other laws be enforced.

What would I do? I would first solve problems by securing our borders. That means get out all those who are here illegally. If they want to apply then apply and stand in line like everyone else did to become a citizen. I would hand them the paperwork as they were going out. I would close down or heavily fine any business that hired them, or housed them. Then I would put ten times more armed troops on our borders. I would do what Mexico does when they find illegals as their laws are much more tougher than ours.

You bring up violence……Pam. And do not twist my words and make it sound like I would enjoy this happening.

Did you think the North was wrong for attacking the South in order to abolish slavery? I mean Pam was this a good thing or bad? What was this war about?

Pam “Because you get it wrong most times.”

Oh yes Pam of course I do…and you of course just get it all right. LOL

“Unless you're god (and you're not) you don't know what I think unless I tell you what I think. This conversation could be a lot more civil if you stopped harping on what you think everyone thinks.”

No I am not God…but apparently you think I act like I think I am God, right? I am just too outspoken and opinionated…and gee that is bad isn’t it Pam? And you have no opinion at all, none that you would share publically that is.

Pam said, “Then you could have your nice little right wing world all to yourself.”

Now Pam you wouldn’t be presuming to know what I would want would you? You think you know what I would want…….hmmm.
Didn’t you just say to stop harping on what I think everyone else thinks?

And your wonderful side comes out…
Pam would never think she knows what someone would really want or do would she? …but she has a sarcastic way of saying it anyway once she has reminded everyone else not to do it.

“shove it down everybody's throat.’

Is that what I am doing? I am here sharing my opinion. Mine might be totally opposite than yours…but I do have the right to share it, don’t I? Or do you like the Black Panthers want me silence…no shot and killed for my views. Well no not really…they don’t just want white conservatives killed, they want right wing radical liberals killed as well. That would include anyone here who is not black.

“And if you didn't like certain people, well then, you could just deport them to New Mexico or some other state. That way, you wouldn't have to besmirch yourself with people you don't agree with. Why you could have yourself a "new Confederacy".”

No Pam only those who ARE HERE ILLEGALLY. Have you missed all the other conversations where I have said this ad nauseam….because you selectively read, god forbid answer any questions that are on the table. But you can fantasize all you want….you know what I really want.



“You going to foment a civil war? Because if that's the way it is, then you're not really about promoting democracy are you?”
Did one person from the North foment the civil war? What were they promoting? Is Obama fomenting equality or doesn’t that matter?

Read the Race article about race…

Article….."Why haven't we moved beyond the old, stultifying debate in the age of Obama?"

I disagree totally with this article. I do not even think about race, never. I do not go to church and sit there and think all the black people sitting there and the fact that they are black. I don’t stand in line behind someone black and think about the fact that they are black, they are people. I don’t go see the Suns play basketball and sit thinking about all the black players and the fact that they are black.

People are people.. color does not matter. I do however love culture and love to see it celebrated..people celebrating their heritage. People are equal…one color, humanness….only shading to celebrate diversity and beauty.

Rev. Wright brought himself into the spotlight by thinking and preaching racial hatred. Sotomayer brought herself into the spotlight with her racist remarks. I never would have thought anything about color had they not made it an issue.
Henry Louis Gates played the race card and Obama opened his mouth into areas that really should not have concerned him. The only reason he made a big deal of it was because the professor was his friend. I think the entire thing was set up. Obama hates police and believes they are all racist. He thinks the Arizona police cant do their jobs because they are racist and he called out the white policeman who arrested his friend.
Article…

“We bury our heads in the sand and pretend to live in a country where there isn't systemic, institutionalized racism and where talking about race is somehow counterproductive to governing.’

We live in a country with humans who are not perfect and that goes for blacks and whites and Hispanics. We are all equal…but live with rules which we must all follow whether we like it or not…this is order.

“when we learn to integrate race into our normal discussions of policy and focus on the substantive questions that make race an incredibly pressing concern.’

Oh tell that to Wright and the Black Panthers. …their hatred is unbelievable. Its not about paying it forward….its about paybacks.


Article…“an America where race isn't off-limits or restricted to certain times of the year but always part of our dialogue.”
It isn’t off limits now….but in the forefront when one side goes ape over issues. And by ape I mean, calls for the death of the other side like the Panthers want. And when one side stands at polls and does more than intimidate people entering, and they are allowed to get away with it….trouble is brewing and something will end up happening, whether it be one year or twenty. When you have a large group like this calling for the death of anothers race especially their children, you sit up and take notice. If Obama can brainwash much of the country about his campaign agenda,,,(it changed after he took office) then who know what the Panthers can and will do) It is times like this when we had better be glad that we have the second amendment and we are allowed to arm ourselves. But then Obama wants to gut that amendment.

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

Pam one of your links was from 2004, six some years ago. The last link said that even though Obama inherited some fiscal problem that does not diminish his responsibility to fix them. It said his administration must come to grips with the nation’s long-term deficit problems. Are they? They are running so far away from solving them it isn’t funny. He is spending what can never be repaid. The problems we have today…blow Bushes out of the water. The article said…today we have “record deficits”. It mentions the war….and the cost of it. We are still at war and more and more money, troops are being sent over there…contrary to what Hussein said he was going to do. Record numbers are dying today…more than when Bush was in office. The blood has transferred….its on Obamas hands now. Funny that you do not hear one peep from the liberals over this one.

Pam posted...."In an interview with Hotline OnCall, Rep. Zach Wamp (R-TN) suggested forming a new Confederacy if voters reject the “tenther” view that laws that conservatives disapprove of violate the Constitution:”

Is this the topic of the conversation? Its Democrats and taxes…you know just to remind you, as I am reminded every so often.

Isobel - posted on 07/30/2010

and...I said that the lobbyists were the biggest threat to America...not terrorism (just for the record)...

and that is what she appears to be saying Krista, agree with the right wing fringe groups, or get ready to be attacked.

Krista - posted on 07/30/2010

Oh please…the greatest threat to our country is not even terrorism…well in a sense it is terrorism because it’s Obama and the Democratic administration. And I will even tack on all those that voted for him....Like I said in another post. This is a war between two worldviews….and there is no compromise... because the sides are on opposite ends of the table. This will come down to war…and I do not mean words

Are you calling your fellow citizens terrorists and threatening violence against them, Diane?

Pamela - posted on 07/30/2010

Since I lack so severely in facts, here's some:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/tea-pa...

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=vie...

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=vie...

Pamela - posted on 07/30/2010

Regarding race and our inability to have reasoned discussions about it:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...

Pamela - posted on 07/30/2010

There's always secession from the Union. Then you could have your nice little right wing world all to yourself. It could be a theocracy. You could redefine the constitution any ole way you want and shove it down everybody's throat. And if you didn't like certain people, well then, you could just deport them to New Mexico or some other state. That way, you wouldn't have to besmirch yourself with people you don't agree with. Why you could have yourself a "new Confederacy".

Yes indeed, here's a whole new level of crazy from the far right (found this in Think Progress):

"In an interview with Hotline OnCall, Rep. Zach Wamp (R-TN) suggested forming a new Confederacy if voters reject the “tenther” view that laws that conservatives disapprove of violate the Constitution:

“I hope that the American people will go to the ballot box in 2010 and 2012 so that states are not forced to consider separation from this government,” said Wamp during an interview with Hotline OnCall.

He lauded Gov. Rick Perry (R-TX), who first floated the idea of secession in April ‘09, for leading the push-back against health care reform, adding that he hopes the American people “will send people to Washington that will, in 2010 and 2012, strictly adhere” to the constitution’s defined role for the federal government.

“Patriots like Rick Perry have talked about these issues because the federal government is putting us in an untenable position at the state level,” said Wamp[.]

Like Wamp and Perry, many right-wing lawmakers embrace lunatic legal theories — and their numbers grew significantly once President Obama took office. Right-wing Governors Bob McDonnell (R-VA) and Bobby Jindal (R-LA) both signed wildly unconstitutional bills attempting to nullify health reform. Tenther Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas thinks that the ban on whites-only lunch counters is unconstitutional, and other tenther officials claim that everything from Social Security to Medicare to the federal highway system is unconstitutional.

Moreover, while Wamp and Perry’s secessionary agenda puts them at odds with the Constitution and the American people, it does have one famous precedent supporting it. In 1860, American voters elected an obscure former congressman named “Abraham Lincoln” to the presidency. Eleven southern states — all of whom disagreed with the new president on the issue of slavery — soon decided that they didn’t want to be bound by the results of that election. Before Wamp starts campaigning to become the next Jefferson Davis, however, he might want to give some thought to what happened the last time right-wing state governments engaged in an act of mass treason".

So what happens in 2010 or 2012 if the American people don't vote the way you think they ought? You going to foment a civil war? Because if that's the way it is, then you're not really about promoting democracy are you?

Pamela - posted on 07/30/2010

What are your solutions Diane? How do you propose to solve problems? A little bit of violence against people you disagree with? When things don't go the way you feel they should, bring out the guns, huh? Nice.



By the way, please refrain from telling me what I think. Unless you're god (and you're not) you don't know what I think unless I tell you what I think. This conversation could be a lot more civil if you stopped harping on what you think everyone thinks. Because you get it wrong most times.

Pamela - posted on 07/30/2010

Point made.

ME - posted on 07/30/2010

"Like I said in another post. This is a war between two worldviews….and there is no compromise... because the sides are on opposite ends of the table. This will come down to war…and I do not mean words." -Diane

That's terrifying, Diane...and it sounds like a pretty serious threat. I thought that the US was a country where people could live together in peace despite their differences. Do you hope for progressives to die, or do you want to kill us yourself, or would you like to have us deported too???

ME - posted on 07/30/2010

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire effects a TINY percentage of the population (something like 1%), and it is NOT a tax hike. It will also bring us a TRILLION dollars over the next ten years. I thought you all wanted to cut the deficit...or is that only on the backs of the middle class that you want that done...The rich don't need their billions of dollars protected by you...they will be just fine if their tax rate goes from 35 to 39 %...

Diane - posted on 07/30/2010

“I agree with Krista and Jenny. Why do Republicans bitch about the astrinomical debt that this country has and yet think that taxes being raised (or tax cuts allowed to expire) is ridiculous? That doesn't jive. We're paying for two extremely expensive wars as well as nursing a damaged economy. Welcome to 2010. I'm not going to say it doesn't suck, but it seems inevitable to me.”

Obama said he was going to end the war remember. LOL

The blood is on his hands now, you just never hear Liberals talk about that fact. He is sending more and more troops over…and no end is in sight. He is a liar and never intended to end this war.

A damaged economy. He is spending more than Bush ever dreamed of spending. The Democrats are spending whores.
According to the New York Times, President Obama has proposed a “stunning deficit” for 2009 that is expected to reach $1.75 trillion – nearly four times last year’s budget deficit. (New York Times, February 26, 2009)

As the Wall Street Journal noted, the President’s proposed deficit for 2009 (as a share of the gross domestic product) is a “level not seen since 1942 as the U.S. plunged into World War II.” (Wall Street Journal, February 27, 2009)

And over the next ten years, Obama has proposed deficits that remain above $500 billion EVERY year, rising to $712 billion by 2019 – doubling our national debt over the same period of time.
“According to the president's budget, released yesterday, the federal deficit for 2011 is expected to reach nearly $1.6 trillion, a record. And that would come on top of consecutive $1.4 trillion deficits in 2009 and 2010. Between 1789 and 2008, the U.S. government borrowed a total of $5.8 trillion. But in just the first three years of the Obama administration, the government is set borrow $4.4 trillion more.

And even that wouldn't be the end of it. If the Obama budget is adopted in full, federal borrowing will top $18 trillion by 2020. Over the period 2011 to 2020, the president’s plan is to run deficits totaling an astounding $8.5 trillion.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

Christa you are right…….CUT SPENDING.

Laura said, “ps...I think that if he had've been able to do the things he wanted without being stymied by the republicans...the middle class would've come out on top...unfortunately, trying to get everything passed added a lot of bullshit”

Oh please you can’t be serious. He is spending what we never will ever be able to pay off. There are not enough people in the world to pay off the debt he is amassing.

“That being said, He promised to get rid of the lobbyists...and he didn't...obviously...and THAT is the greatest threat to your country as far as I can see it.”

Oh please…the greatest threat to our country is not even terrorism…well in a sense it is terrorism because it’s Obama and the Democratic administration. And I will even tack on all those that voted for him.

I am not a racist because I think Barack Hussein is a dangerous and corrupt man. I have black friends and would support any number of black candidates for President. Many of my black friends think Obama is not the real deal that they voted for. Why are his poll numbers so low?

Christa said, “The Reps. paid in 2008 for not meaning what they say and I hope the Dems will suffer that same fate in November and in 2012. They should, IMO, they have done much worse in 2 years then Bush and the Reps did in 6.”

They certainly did and this time around someone better light a fire underneath them because the devils mouth is open. It is now or never. We need to start taking this country back from those who hate her.

“show the level of disrespect towards the office of president –“


And does Obama show people respect? Does he show leaders that come to the White House, respect? He is a spoiled, pampered, conceited dictator….who would do anything, ANYTHING…for his agenda.

I respect the office of the Presidency…but I do not respect the man who fills it. Had I been a host on the View…I would have called in sick today. I am sure the women were told what to say and ask.

“The right despised Clinton. But no one stood up and yelled at him during his State of the Union address the way they did Obama. Or was it perhaps because an African American man held the office?”

Do not even compare Obama with Clinton. He makes Clinton look like Mother Teresa. This has nothing to do with race, it’s all the LEFT has to wheel and deal with. They know that Obama is an utter failure and will do anything to make excuses and cover up his inadequacies. Use the race card…This is all about an incompetent man who holds our nation’s highest office. This is about a man who is all about the dreams of his father, throw his mom in there too while you’re at it….who both were Communists. This is all about the people he hired who are communists.

“Occasionally, people hang nooses in trees and act shocked when accused of being racist. So yes, I think there is a little bit of racism going on in the vitriol being vomited at Obama.”

There is much more racism shown lately but blacks towards whites. Rev. Wright preached on it for years while he was pastor at Obama’s church. The fact that Obama sides with the Black Panthers shows he is also racist. Paybacks are a bitch….he wants reparations….and he will pad the courts, hire communists, socialists, do whatever he can to make that happen. Obama even said we all have our biases…and well…I am sure he also meant our racist feelings as well, and he has them, that is evident.

“I have never ever seen the rage and hate that I've seen these past almost 2 years. It has been an irrational venom devoid of fact but heavy on fancy that has served to poison any meaningful dialogue. I find it interesting that many of those crying "racism" from the rooftops are white, wealthy and sitting in the seat of power.”

You have blinders on….and your statement comes as no shock to me. You love Obama…and never have faulted him for anything. He can do no wrong in your eyes. Republicans are not the party with an ex KKK member Robert Byrd on it are we? We are not the party that stands at polling places and threatens and intimidates the people going in to vote. We are not the party who condones abortion up to natural birth. We are not the party that wants government to take over our lives before they tax us to death. We are not the party that wants to ban guns. We are not the party of communism. We value freedom of speech and religion and we love America.

Any noose you talk about are ones meant for white males. And any damage to race relations in this country are Obamas fault. His underlying hatred for whites….shines through very clear.
You talk about fact Pam. You don’t want to hear or see fact. LOL

You don’t look or care about the evil people our President has surrounded himself with. You could care less. Ayers is probably a hero to you as is the Black Panthers. Your probably think no doubt that their actions were ok. That says something...and it’s too bad you are so biased that you can’t see what Obama is doing.

You have a warped sense of what is going on if you think it’s the wealthy who are the only ones who are against Obama. I go to tea party meetings and its people of all economic backgrounds. Black, whites, Asians, Hispanics….all cultures, all professions attend and are sick and tired, and scared to death about what Obama is doing.

Like I said in another post. This is a war between two worldviews….and there is no compromise... because the sides are on opposite ends of the table. This will come down to war…and I do not mean words.

Pamela - posted on 07/29/2010

The whole thing with Joe Wilson was how amazingly inappropriate he was to show the level of disrespect towards the office of president - regardless of whether or not he agreed with or approved of policies being promoted. The reason his outburst was considered racist - well, would he have done it with a white president? Would he have? Did he or anyone else yell "You lie!" at Clinton? The right despised Clinton. But no one stood up and yelled at him during his State of the Union address the way they did Obama. Or was it perhaps because an African American man held the office? I think it is a valid question. Southern States want to fly the Confederate Flag and declare it their right to do so - even though that flag represents very bad things to a whole group of people. Southerners call the Civil War, the "Northern Aggression" and want it called that in textbooks. Occasionally, people hang nooses in trees and act shocked when accused of being racist. So yes, I think there is a little bit of racism going on in the vitriol being vomited at Obama. In my life, I have never ever seen the rage and hate that I've seen these past almost 2 years. It has been an irrational venom devoid of fact but heavy on fancy that has served to poison any meaningful dialogue. I find it interesting that many of those crying "racism" from the rooftops are white, wealthy and sitting in the seat of power.

Pamela - posted on 07/29/2010

ditto.

Isobel - posted on 07/29/2010

and spending it on tax cuts is genius...it guarantees re-election...even if it's a stupid idea.

Pamela - posted on 07/29/2010

You know, tax cuts actually are spending. If we make Bush's tax cuts permanent, we'll actually end up adding $4b to the deficit. Did anyone check out Krista's link? Even the GOP understand this. They just don't want us to understand it. Here's an interesting bit of information:



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=692



So I don't think that Republicans are really all that fiscally responsible - it's just about what we're spending money on.

Christa - posted on 07/29/2010

@Laura, he yelled "you lie" at Obama during an address to Congress. He was then called a racist and people said he really meant "you lie n****r". It was quite ridiculous. It's was a snide comment that obviously fell flat. :(

The point of this was really to show Obama and his thugs to be the liars that they are. He campaigned on not raising taxes, they campaigned on the stimulus and healthcare that they would not raise taxes (except on the rich of course). Meanwhile all the Reps. said all of this spending would absolutely raise taxes and yet nobody listened. It's time for the liberals to mean what they say and say what they mean. The Reps. paid in 2008 for not meaning what they say and I hope the Dems will suffer that same fate in November and in 2012. They should, IMO, they have done much worse in 2 years then Bush and the Reps did in 6.

Cathy - posted on 07/29/2010

Join the club.

We've got a recession and over a decade of power and big spending by a Labour government to dig our way out of.

The government power left cleaning up the mess always gets raw deal. Tax hikes are inevitable.

Sara - posted on 07/29/2010

This is interesting...

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/07/28/gop-...

Isobel - posted on 07/27/2010

That tends to happen when you throw a ball straight up in the air ;P

Exactly what Joe Wilson comment?

Christa - posted on 07/27/2010

It was a reference to the Joe Wilson comment, guess that went over some heads. :-)

Jen - posted on 07/27/2010

"He's a liar, but I guess that makes me a racist right?"

huh?

Isobel - posted on 07/27/2010

I never said that everyone who disagrees with him is a racist, just that there are a lot of people who disagree with EVERYTHING he does because they are racist, there's a difference.