Does this trouble anyone????

Dana - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

Very fustrated.....sorry that they seem confusing. I just absolutely will not be nasty or I hope not about commenting so maybe I just make things too wordy or not enough, and I want intelligent conversation on this, passion and humor are good to, but can I ask is it because I view these things from a very conservative logic.....seriously, does this make me tha ass now :) (for Dana :) :)

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say now.  Sorry, took me a minute.  I understand you wanting to have a intelligent and good debate without getting nasty.  I appreciate that.  I think it makes for a better debate if we all keep heightened emotions out of it.  We're all guilty of crossing that line though, sometimes.  Now, that being said, and I mean this in the nicest way because you do seem like a nice person who has kept her cool through all this, it is hard to have an intelligent debate about this because it's not an intelligent topic.  It is not fact, it is your opinion based on skewed information.   I hope that you continue to contribute and come up with new topics but, for this one, I think it should be put to rest.  You're not getting anywhere because there is no where to go. 

And no, I obviously don't think you are an ass.  Just misguided.  

Dana - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

Very fustrated.....sorry that they seem confusing. I just absolutely will not be nasty or I hope not about commenting so maybe I just make things too wordy or not enough, and I want intelligent conversation on this, passion and humor are good to, but can I ask is it because I view these things from a very conservative logic.....seriously, does this make me tha ass now :) (for Dana :) :)

Okay, why is this directed at me?  Is that what you mean when you wrote my name? 

I think more people would be less confused if you would use the reply with quote.  That way we know who you are directing what at.  If you are unsure what that is, it's at the bottom of each post.  By the mark this as , helpful, funny, nice, encouraging. 

Also it might be helpful if you went over your own posts before posting and fixing them because sometimes they are quite confusing.   It has nothing to do with being too "wordy",  things are just all over the place. 

Thank you!

Iris - posted on 12/14/2009

This is all very confusing. You start by talking about OB speaking well of "the Nation of Islam" witch is actually a religious organization in Chicago. So you might need to be a bit more clear on the OP.
Anyway, it sounds to me like you want us who respond to this thread to agree with you on your OP, and because we don't you seem to think that we are not getting your first question. Then you stray really far from your OP, even so far that all of a sudden people are debating about BO's name being a genuine one. It's no wonder people get confused.
Before I get to the OP I just want to say that I remember people and even media in Europe talking about George Bush thinking of himself as the world police when he went into Iraq, I've never heard that about OB.
Back to the OP.
Sara said it perfectly in one of her first posts, we're not in war against Islam. I think he's doing what he can to be diplomatic. As simple as that. And that might actually spear us from any more attacks.

?? - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

why confused??? Jo

Esther - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

To Sarah
.....but for now I will go video hunting and website looking to give example to the staements and actions that have seemed to me to be more well spoken of the nations of Islam than us. 

Don't forget the quotes where he calls his opposition terrorists and speaks in kind and respectful terms of actual terrorists. If you find one (really, only one will do) I will join a convent and vote Republican in all future elections.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

why confused??? Jo

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

Okay this was back in October 2008 - go to youtube it's on there. Yes he said that but he was referring to the fact that when it was written it did not include non-white people. That is the part he is referring to as fundamentally flawed not the document as a whole but I think he meant it wasn't written for every person no matter what race.

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

The job of the President is to uphold the Constitution of the United States and I believe that's what he is doing I've never heard him waiver on this point. I need to look up the part about it being fundamentally flawed I remember him saying this but I forget the context.

?? - posted on 12/14/2009

I'm so confused...

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

I know i seen spicific interviews where Obama ahs openly vioced his discrepancies with the constitution. this is just from memory but I thought he even mentioned revising or reviewingparts in it......Iknow Iknow that's what the amendments are all about, but he spoke of it being fundamentally flawed.

Makes one wonder about how strongly is that upholding part for him???

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

Very fustrated.....sorry that they seem confusing. I just absolutely will not be nasty or I hope not about commenting so maybe I just make things too wordy or not enough, and I want intelligent conversation on this, passion and humor are good to, but can I ask is it because I view these things from a very conservative logic.....seriously, does this make me tha ass now :) (for Dana :) :)

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Just want to add: Why would Obama not make the US his first "point of service". The man has dedicated his life to teaching and upholding the Constitution and ran to become POTUS. Why would someone who didn't care about the US or it's laws do any of the things Obama has done in his life?



And I don't think people are trying to pick on you or overreact to what you're saying Kelley, I think that your posts are very confusing and we're just not sure what you mean...

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

To Sarah

He is my personal rep. I also know that as much as I disagree with soooo many of his descissions, I liked McCain even less!!! He is nothing more than a backstabber.....thank you media for picking a rep that didn't deserve any party loyalty whatsoever because he had none and has no Idea what it looks like. Just so you also know I'm a pro-life voter absolutey always will be. Show me the one that will stand for the most innocent among us and be a voice for them. life-liberty-pursiut of hapiness... it's no mistake that the first one listed is life.

He is my rep. and so I can only hope good for him, doesn't mean I agree, but when he makes good descisions it works for generations, this is my greatest desire.

those points are to reply to you post.



The point of the original post is still the same.....but for now I will go video hunting and website looking to give example to the staements and actions that have seemed to me to be more well spoken of the nations of Islam than us.

what's not to understand about this concern....it has to do with wqho are we serving here???? I don't need the world repsented-as theyhave it all figured out, We need to have a great rep to the world....I don't think that achieving that means we are thrown under the bus or compromising capitolism for socialism etc...yadda yadda (please don't over-react it's only a word illustrated exaggeration:).

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

That was just what I needed to hear today.

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

Joy - i like you.

JL - posted on 12/14/2009

Are you serious. Please take the time to do some real fact checking and some actual research. Critical thinkings skills have obviously been lost and taken over by some asinine repeating of conspiracy theories that have been on numerous occasions proven to be false. Wow, I hope this is a joke and not all serious. If the "facts" come from e-mails or some right winger articles, blogs or whatever ...please don't even repeat them and claim them as "facts" because it is just too sad to even comment on.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

anytime i agree with a point brougth out, somehow this becames a contradition, so just to let every one know. I still am bothered by point in the original post. But please let me also voice some other points i agree with you on

1st:

I think it's a no-win situation, but just like sometimes there are some children in in a class room that you may not be able to win over , you do your best to win some battles, but if that one child who might be acting out against you isn't dealt with then many children will feel the adverse affects (Isreal is one example...we aren't alone)

2nd

I believe he is trying to resolve an extremely volatile situation where tempers are flared and offended quickly, and sometimes unwhittingly. Also on this point the fact that Obama has real life experience in Muslim rearing/exposure and relationships is good, Just want to make sure that He keeps us his first point of service.

3rd:

he didn't make the rules, and yet wears all the restraints thereof (hence the game of polatics) But when in the world did everyone forget that Bush had just as many and I firmly believe more restraints. Again they got into polatics and we expect them to manouver (sp) these things.



this is not a contradiction or flip flop it merely trying to analyze the pro and cons.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Well, an American President is elected by majority, so that doesn't necessarily mean that he is your personal best representative, but he is a representative of the will of the people. I must admit, I'm still really not understanding what your point is...

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

On fact checkers I'm seeing a couple of things....one of them is tThat Barak's name was listed as Barry Setoro for his entry into 1st grade in India (during his mothers marriage) the point of the name was that if he had chosen, and I will agree that Barak became Barry as a nickname or such, in reguard to a following of faith (and the original post question) changing to an islamic name would show a different kind of commitment.

So the Question "so what if he's a muslim?".....if he were a devout Muslim, it would conflict with some of our very own beliefs as a country and a people, which directs me back to the original posted concern. I want to know my American president is my best representative.....

As far as the birth cert. the point is mute, it would be a horrible destructive factor to make issue of it at this point. He is our president.

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

Sorry I missed another reference to me "where does this leave us" unfortunately it leaves us in the worst case possible (well other than them attacking us again on our soil). First we are in a no win situation, second Obama is just trying to fix the problems without creating new ones, third he didn't make the rules so I think he is trying to work within the confines of the rules that were left on his desk, fourth I'm a terrible strategist for military engagements so I don't have any good answers for how to solve this. Really look if anyone has a great idea to get us out of this I'll stand on my head and spin for them. I"m just saying I think he's looking for peace and I think he's doing the best he can with what he's got. Put yourself in his shoes just for one moment, it's a horrible place to be no matter your political bent. Come on sit down in the oval office and sign some papers. He has to deal with international laws and conventions and solve this big mess. His hands have got to be tied 100 different ways. Try doing your job with a camera poised on your face at all times and a microphone in front of your mouth then make a decision.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

thanks sarah

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

What last line was for me? I missed something in there. I just said if you're going to bring something up you're going to hear all sides and you may not like what you hear. And as far as President Obama changing his name --- what? Okay first the right said he's not a U.S. born citizen now you're saying he changed his name what a load of crap - that is his birth name. I mean for goodness sake how long are these I don't know tabloid chain email bullsh*t stories going to keep coming up and making the rounds? Yes I think his school mates called him Barry, wouldn't you? How not to stand out in a bad way at school yeah call me Obama. You know his parents named him that before Hussein was a name with a negative connotation?

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

9/11 wasn't the initial the initial point of attack, it was the final straw.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Lesbian Gay Transsexual Bisexual.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

LGTB ??? please expound 'sorry'

Isobel - posted on 12/14/2009

Let's say he IS muslim...just for argument's sake...so what? I don't understand what would be wrong with speaking of the religion for what it truly is, just as good, bad, or indifferent as Christianity. I think what he is trying to do in all of these "pro-Islam" statements is to try to stop the hatred that many people have had for ALL Muslims since 9/11 happened. Saying that the Islam is at war with America is exactly the same as saying that Christianity is at war with the LGTB community. It simply isn't true...it's an oversimplification based on extreme fundamentalists...not the majority of either religion.

?? - posted on 12/14/2009

I have no idea what the actual topic is here... it seems to flounder around and just scatter out from each reply I would just like to say that from my own simple education - the US was attacked because of previous US behavior. The 9/11 attack wasn't unprovoked, spontaneous and just cause some people suddenly woke up and decided they wanted to hate the USA... there are a few posts where it seems insinuated that the 9/11 attack was the initial point of where this all started.... this 'issue' started LONG before 9/11.



Not justifying anything, just something to keep in mind. This whole 'war on terrorism' is a 2 way street. They feel terrorized just as much as the US feels terrorized. And both feelings come from a legitimate source. The longer it goes back and forth, the longer the terrorism will continue. The biggest thing the US could do is stop the cycle. Be the bigger 'person', like Sara said, stop the cycle and I think that is exactly what Obama is attempting to do.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

I'm sorry, but what in God's name are you talking about in regards to Obama changing his name to Barack Obama as his Islamic name? What kind of BS is that? Are you serious? I don't even know what to say...I most certainly do not think that is a fact and now question where it is you getting your "facts" from.



You're right, it is healthy to question your leaders...but you should really do so based on factual information, not some cockamaimie conspiracy-theory-outer-limits-birther-movement stuff...

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

I never said anything about a bad religion, i also hoped to clearify that with direction of the taliban statement, absolutely never blamed Obama for the war, deffinately think action neede to be taken - has nothing to do with bigger persons sometimes you must put your foort down (there were many previous attacks on behalf of these groups, taking out 3,000 innocent people on 9/11 definately has to be answered even military force has it's place in due justice) I also didn't say there was something wrong with a diplomatic aproach in addressing our enemies, but it seems to me that there are many statements and actions of Obama that trouble me as to the fortitued in dealing with the Taliban - they (the taliban) do not waiver in there desire to cause chaos for the US, and i do not like like pandoring to them either (in the name of islam).
I don't know where rascism came into play, I have been discussing a mindset we're dealing with, and the heart behind that.....that's where islamic beliefs come into play, just as the people in that compund out west were driven by a morman practice. the same is true of those in the taliban...ask yourself "what drives them to kill and promote and rejoice in chaos? Not all Muslims....I don't believe that. Just as some (very few, fewver a 1/2%) have done extreme things in christian faith (bombing abortion clinics) but what was their driving factor? this does not make religion evil, it only shows our own falabilities.
Sorry to confuse anyone, but there are facts that do trouble me Barak Hussein Obama, whose name was Barry Setoro, obviously changed his name at some point to an Islamic name this usually is embraced when that individual commits himself to his Islamic/Muslim belief, He entered law school with islam listed for religion. Why is it confusing that I would wonder about deep held sympathies and how much so??? enough 'not' to pledge allegence to the flag of the United States of America at one point? what's confusing about this questioning? It's healthy to ask. Again the psoted question was about it seems as thought he's more interested in speaking well of islamic nations AHEAD of our OWN.
it's troubling

In case you've wondered I have my own beefs with the previous administration.

I hope that I communicated my concerns in this.

Amie - posted on 12/14/2009

I am totally confused by this thread.

1) Islam is not at war with the states, Islam is not a "bad" religion. It does state to cleanse the world of all non-believers. Almost a parallel to how Christians try to convert non-believers. ALL religions have there extremists sects. It does not make that entire religion a "bad" one. The terrorists that the states and other countries are currently fighting are the extremists of Islam. It does not automatically equal all of Islam to be a bad religion nor does having a creed that all non-believers should be cleansed. Also I'm almost 100% sure that something is lost in the translation and it could very well mean something closer to trying to convert them rather than the literal way it is taken (cleanse = kill) in the English form.

2) There is nothing, I repeat nothing, wrong with Obama upholding Islam and speaking well of that religion. He is being diplomatic, he is trying to show people that it is a beautiful religion, as are all religions to people who embrace them. He is not, nor has he ever, condoned terrorists actions.

3) How is Obama policing the world? I'm genuinely curious about this. I read the replies and did not see one answer to this and a few people asked.

4) If you are going to go into all countries that have terrorists you do realize that would mean something akin to military law for the states too right? The US has home grown terrorists in it as well. Not only that but the US has citizens which have gone to the middle east to train with the terrorists because they believe in what they are doing! It is not all Islamic people either.

5) I have had to deal with bullies. Most specifically racist bullies. I did have to stand up to them and take action. But I did so swiftly and decisively. You do realize the Afghanistan mess is not Obama's fault right? To blame him for something he did not start and did not cause is pointless. That war could have been won, it was won within the first month. But then Bush started the war in Iraq and all but forgot about Afghanistan and now it is the mess it is in now. I do agree that he should not have publicized a withdrawal date though. Hopefully there was a good reason for it and it's something he is using to throw off the terrorists. Who knows, maybe it was a really big fubar move.

I am really confused by all your posts Kelley. You do not seem able to communicate well what you are trying to say.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

I'm sorry, but I don't think we had to attack because we were attacked. Ever heard of being the bigger person? I can remember thinking on that awful day, watching people throw themselves off of the twin towers, that if we go to war over this then all of these people have died in vain. I mean, we have totally and completely played into the hands of our attackers. We had so much support behind us from around the world, we could have used that as a real launching point to deal with terrorists and have the cooperation of other countries through diplomatic means. Now, we're grossly unpopular in the world and a lot of the actions we have taken (torture, Gitmo, Abu Grab) have only served to only strengthen the resolve of terrrorists, but served as material to recruit an entire new generation of terrorists. So many things have happened over the years that have lead us to this point, so much of our own doing. It's not like we were just sitting here all innocent and someone attacked us. Years and years and years of deeds have led us to this moment. A little retrospect is a good thing.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

Point of the discussion for me was really questioning this pres. true loyalties. His sympathies for Islam..... but I think the bigger fight over ther is the Taliban hold. and with that said I don't 'believe OB has any sympathies' I hope not.

As far as flip flops, I am interested in the debate and for me that means...I believe you will have some view i both do and do not agree with. Not trying to change people, I want the balanced discuss.



I really am going out the door now. till later

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

we were attacked (still fighting the attacks). we had to answer.



by the way the last line was for , Renee

JL - posted on 12/14/2009

I don't get the point of this post or discussion at all..besides the fact that someone is overreading things and connecting 2 to 6 and is somehow trying to insist that it still equals 4 when it is obvious it does not.

Wow, sorry but this is a strange assessment and debate. I am not sure that you are even clear on what you are trying to state, because your arguement from what I can understand flip flops back and forth.

As a military wife I do have to say that it was the US military commanders who decided a few years ago during the Bush Administration that they wanted to change the conceptual ideal of the military and approach situations as an international peace keeping force which was why command decided to change the military head gear to the baret, because it is the head gear worn by other international forces. Soldiers are trainted to go into situations as peacekeeping forces not as military muscle meant to attack and destroy. They are trained and told their mission is to take down the enemy but also to protect and rebuild. This was not something Obama enforced or pushed or even came up with.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

the very nature of the mind set we're dealing with is one that I don't think you can overcome without a change of heart. That being said....Have you ever dealt or been taunted by a bully or an aggressive attack. they don't back down until you stand up to them (not hypocritcal, I had to live that for a hort time) so with that said if we're going to do a job then let's be serious about it. By setting a withdraw date it only breeds an underground organizing of the peoples with some very dangerous agendas. They will simply bide their time.
I would have like to have seen OB, NOT declare withdraw time to the world, but rather hold this in confidence with his cabinet, and then through strategy, and implementations make that happen.
As far as just getting into politics, I have had a desire to be listening for about 20yrs now, it's not a proffession just an observation. doesn't make you and ass.....just crass :)

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Again, its' confusing that in one post you condemn Obama for "policing" the world, and yet you just stated that you firmly believe that if we go into countries that harbor our enemies, then we shouldn't play games and get it done. That seems a bit hypocritical to me. We don't have the right to invade every sovereign nation that harbors terrorists, or we'd probably be going to every country in the world. I wish we had never invaded Iraq or Afghanistan, but we're left with it now and I think that BO is trying to do the right thing to end our involvement there. But I don't think we any right to go anywhere in the world with our Army and get rid of terrorists. IMO, that kind of attitude and show of brutish military muscle only serves to breeds new generations of terrorists. What has to be accomplished must be done through diplomacy, not military might.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

I was litterally refering to the appointments I have scheduled.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

Renee,
I completely agree, this war over there.....I've never thought this was a winnable thing, as a matter of fact I truly fustrates me.
But this was thrust upon us on 9/11, it was their outward expression of war on us.
we are not a country nor would I ever want it to be one that just rolled over and didn't fight back......
so let me ask, where soes that leave us? As for me I firmly belive if we go into these ocuntries that habor our enemies then let's not play games, and get this done seriously and swiftly.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

No, you're correct it doesn't say death to the infidels(USA), but its wuite clear on there no tolorence..... I'l try to reference this for you.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

Historically it didn't begin that way but it developed into that. and I actually understated the degree by which this is a deeply held belief, I did so because I do not in anyway want this to be a malicious or hate realted issue.
Yes, most of our religious histories have their violent aspects. (but any time such beliefs are put into the hands of man) passions and powers that be have used these as devices for their own agendas.
Unfortunately, that being said, there is a very serious and eminate threat to our way of life.

Wow, I really have to scoot everybody out the door. I really am enjoying all the feedback, It's one thing to exchange with those of like mind, but another to be challenged to think through differing views.
thanks
looking forward to later.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

Islam ultimately show a 'mandate' in their belief that Isreal is to pushed into the sea, and Death to the USA infidels , and a even if their own children convert to christianty they can kill them for the sake of allah.. I know some of you have problems with christianty, but wow, if the worst that happens is you're excommunicated sure beets death for believing differently.
The freedom believing differently has been one of thesources of our stength as a nations!

I really don't believe this to be entirely accurate.  All monotheistic religions,  and not just Islam, have their fair share of violent and intolerant scriptures, as well as bloody histories.

Dana - posted on 12/14/2009

Also, the claim that President Obama is trying to police the world? Really. I'm curious. Did you just recently get into politics in the last year or two? Not trying to be an ass here, I just find that when people make some statements like these, they are new to the political game.

Dana - posted on 12/14/2009

I actually don't think that it says in the Koran. Death to the USA infidels....

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

If we are all talking about the same war (the ones (2 remember) going on in Iraq and Afganistan, okay those are not winnable wars they never will be. I mean can't anyone think back to the USSR? They tried for years to invade and control Afganistan and for what? They never got anywhere back then. We armed the Taliban to fight the Soviet Union. And now this administration is left with this big hairy mess that he is getting blamed for in some of the media, he didn't choose this war he didn't start it, no he has to clean the damn mess up. I think he is trying to make diplomacy where there wasn't any in the past 8 years. Look we all have mommy stuff and jobs and all that crap. I think the main point is that everyone has a different perspective and you are hearing it.

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

Islam ultimately show a 'mandate' in their belief that Isreal is to pushed into the sea, and Death to the USA infidels , and a even if their own children convert to christianty they can kill them for the sake of allah.. I know some of you have problems with christianty, but wow, if the worst that happens is you're excommunicated sure beets death for believing differently.
The freedom believing differently has been one of thesources of our stength as a nations!

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

I have to say, I'm really confused as to what your point is? Shaping up more like policing the world? So, going to war with the UN Security Council approval and invading a sovereign nation without provocation is ok, but what Obama has is more like policing the world? Totally confused....

Kelley - posted on 12/14/2009

His role as commander and cheif, are shaping up more like policing the world rather than trying to victoriously put assunder a very reall enemy to the U.S. NO-ONE has ever said in a war for the very safetly of our country 'o.k., I'm in!, but i'm packing my stuff up at the end of the day'
I will get back to everyone on facts that have trouble me, but like you all ,I've got to go do my mom thing.... we appointments today to get to. (it might be really late....like the 2or3 a.m. timing:)

Dana - posted on 12/14/2009

Okay for one, I'm still waiting on the answer to Islamic mandate, also. You also stated that it's a repeated attitude, not something he actually said. In my opinion, if you are going on an attitude rather than what is actually said then your view will be skewed, one way if you like him, another if you don't. It's best to just stick with the facts.

Renee - posted on 12/14/2009

I guess my ears heard it differently maybe with a different perspective. Since I am a non-religious person I heard him not uplifting Islam but instead more with the air of diplomacy and peace. I mean what good would it serve our country to be offensive like the former administration does anyone remember the axis of evil? This is the kind of propaganda that Obama is trying to reverse. My opinion.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

yeah, to my knowledge, no one has ever said that or inferred that militant terrorists deserve compassion or respect. BO has, in fact, condemed those actions...rightly so.