Double Standard

JL - posted on 12/14/2009

Quoting Kelley:

The whole issue of seperation of church and state has been grossly turned around. The whole importance of this was to keep the government out of the churches (freedom of religion...You know the the king of England declared only 'one' church, that just wasn't acceptable for this new nation) Now, never ever, did our founding fathers intend for the moral compass of The Bible to be removed or banned from any of our schooling or judicial proscesses. Not any SPECIFIC religion, but the Holy Bible, was always planned to be the goal by which to hold a moral standard. If you look at the book even as a historical base of record, it stands, or acheologically it's proven correct repeatedly.Look at the ten comandments - even selectively- what's wrong with, don't kill? don't steal? Don't lie, honoring parents? Not cheating on a spouse?
Anyway, I am a Chrstian, and I celebrate Christmas a little differently than others, I also have no problem being well rounded in my children dealing with other cultures(and actually really enjoy teaching my children about other cultures and there celebrations......Jesus himself didn't celebrate his culture the way we do as Christian Americans)

I think there's been quite a sad injustice when we have to be silenced because of the false representaion (the biblical standart was NEVER suppost to be removed from church, BUT by design it was suppost to remove the gov. from our religion) of 'seperation of church and state' , and as the result the very person who wanted us to live free and full lives cannot be mentioned by name. (You know Jesus "the reason for the season")

As a professional historian of American history who also has a degree in polisci..I have to say your distorted version of American history saddens me. Do some research and reading..I  suggest starting with the Federalist Papers and then read the words written  by  Jefferson the man who instilled the concept.

And not all believers follow and celebrate the idea that Christmas was the birth of Jesus...some of us date his birth to the historical  birthdate in March.

Isobel - posted on 12/14/2009

I have said this before on another thread...so for those of you who have already read it...sorry ;P

The separation of church and state exists for TWO reasons...ONE- to protect churches from the government (Burquas can't be outlawed) and to protect citizens from churches...women can't be forced to wear burquas if they don't want to.

America is a Country where the majority of the population is Christian...not a Christian Nation...there is a BIG difference.

Jenny - posted on 12/14/2009

Article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli makes it perfectly clear:

Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_T...

Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Advocates of the separation of church and state claim[17] that this text constitutes evidence that the United States Government was not founded on the Christian religion. The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

Absolutely, Colleen! It is amazing the kind of foresight they had...they were smart men that were no doubt influenced by their smart wives... :)

Colleen - posted on 12/14/2009

That makes total sense and I agree with you. I do believe that Christianity (or a Protestant religion closely resembling Christianity) was the foundation for many of the decisions made regarding our country in its earliest years, but I don't think that it is--or has ever been--a "national religion" or anything of the sort.



I liked that the author specified that "...The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy," and, "...They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation." I think it shows a lot of integrity on the part of our founders.

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

That is a good link, Colleen. Thanks. Really interesting.



"The First Amendment insured the liberty needed for Christianity to be a preserving influence and a moral beacon, but it also insured Christianity would never be the law of the land."



I think the above quote sums up what I have been trying to say...I understand that Christianity is the most popular religion in our country and always has been, but I also think that it was never meant to be the whole foundation of the experiment of the US. It is true that Christian principles have helped shaped this nation, but it bothers me when people say that we need to get back to our Christian roots that have been stripped away because it's not true. Christianity may have been the philosophical basis, but it was never meant to be the rule or the law...and thus Christians have no more rights to/in this country than atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc... what bothers me most is that a lot of Christians act like they have a larger stake in the US and it's moral compass than the rest, and they use our Founding Father's religions as an argument to lay claim on the whole of society...I just don't think that's true...if I'm making any sense.

Colleen - posted on 12/14/2009

Sara, you said something similar to me on another thread, and I had heard a little bit about what you were saying but not much so I did some research. I found this interesting article. Obviously, it's just one article and I want to do a lot more research about the actual beliefs and intents of our Founding Fathers, but I thought this article was relevant. The author makes that case that while one side of the argument says that the Founding Fathers were Deists, and the other side says that they were Christians, the actual truth is--as usual!--somewhere in the middle.



As I said, though, I'm still researching! :-)



http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsA...

Sara - posted on 12/14/2009

But it is a known fact that many of the founding fathers were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular. So, I really don't agree that the bible is the foundation for the US....I really don't think that's what was in mind when our nation was created.

Kelley - posted on 12/13/2009

The whole issue of seperation of church and state has been grossly turned around. The whole importance of this was to keep the government out of the churches (freedom of religion...You know the the king of England declared only 'one' church, that just wasn't acceptable for this new nation) Now, never ever, did our founding fathers intend for the moral compass of The Bible to be removed or banned from any of our schooling or judicial proscesses. Not any SPECIFIC religion, but the Holy Bible, was always planned to be the goal by which to hold a moral standard. If you look at the book even as a historical base of record, it stands, or acheologically it's proven correct repeatedly.Look at the ten comandments - even selectively- what's wrong with, don't kill? don't steal? Don't lie, honoring parents? Not cheating on a spouse?

Anyway, I am a Chrstian, and I celebrate Christmas a little differently than others, I also have no problem being well rounded in my children dealing with other cultures(and actually really enjoy teaching my children about other cultures and there celebrations......Jesus himself didn't celebrate his culture the way we do as Christian Americans)



I think there's been quite a sad injustice when we have to be silenced because of the false representaion (the biblical standart was NEVER suppost to be removed from church, BUT by design it was suppost to remove the gov. from our religion) of 'seperation of church and state' , and as the result the very person who wanted us to live free and full lives cannot be mentioned by name. (You know Jesus "the reason for the season")

?? - posted on 12/09/2009

That's really neat Joy, they do something like that arond here too, I don't know the scale of what they do though - I just know my friends lil girl has to dress up as a Poinsetta (sp?) for some end of the year holiday special event

JL - posted on 12/09/2009

Next week my daughters school is having a thier Christmas Around the World week. They do this every year. Each class is assigned a country and they dress up, do crafts, and make presentations about how the country they studied celebrates. Each class is assigned a day where they walk from class to class and present their country. All the classes participate and then at the end of the week every class walks around the school together for a Christmas Around the World Parade.

?? - posted on 12/09/2009

I remember one year in grade 5 or 6 I can't remember which, I think it was grade 6 - each student was assigned a country and our project was to learn about the various holidays that country celebrated around Christmas time. And it was up to us to figure out if it was mainly Christmas, mainly Chinese new year, mainly Kwanzaa, whatever it was that was celebrated between the end of November and the end of January of the next year. It was interesting to see all of the different things people celebrated - I would love to go back and explore more and in depth different cultures ideas behind Christmas or whatever holiday they celebrate around this time of year. I think there was only 2-3 students that ended up switching countries because they couldn't figure out how to present thier project properly.



There was 1 girl, who was Christian come to think of it, the country she was assigned was the USA (no one got Canada, oddly enough) and her entire presentation was saying a holiday, it's most 'popular' origin and a brief summary of who and why and where and how it was celebrated. And at the end of her presentation she said something along the lines of 'Now I get to listen to all of your presentations because I learned a lil bit about each of your countries but you got to learn the specifics!'



And it's true... North America is a melting pot of different traditions, holidays, cultures and not a single one of them is 'more important' or more worth while than the other... they all deserve equal respect though, no matter who is celebrating it. And considering this general time of the year is supposed to be about love and giving and caring and sharing..... all of the negativity towards ANY of the other people just makes it even more important for us all to focus on positively re-enforcing all the neat things that come with different traditions and celebrations.

Dana - posted on 12/09/2009

Ridiculous...

Amie - posted on 12/09/2009

On the taking Christ out of Christmas aspect.

For every public school we have, we have a private Catholic school as well. They are all arranged within a block of each other throughout our entire city.

So I drive my kids to school. On the way back I drive by the Catholic School. Compared to my kids public school it's pretty barren. Except for this one HUGE sign atop of their chapel (which is attached to the school) that says Keep Christ IN Christmas. /:) Got nothing better to do? Really? Why not decorate like my kids school has? There are decorations everywhere, Christmas mostly but each class has some for other faiths as well. I just thought it was interesting and pertained to this discussion so I thought I'd share. =)

Esther - posted on 12/09/2009

I also think that at least within the US, Christians hold FAAAAAAAAAAR more power than muslims. I don't think it's unusual (or uncalled for) to protect the underdog and be more critical of the people in power.



As for the original question - I think much of this "taking the Christ out of Christmas" is an urban myth. I don't think it's nearly as bad as some parties would like to make us believe. Look on this forum alone. Even the "flaming liberals" don't think there is anything wrong with saying Merry Christmas and having christian symbols used in X-mas celebrations. So I really question the seriousness of this "problem".

Dana - posted on 12/09/2009

I was just saying that this is the only Muslim email that I've gotten. lol Anyhow I replied to every address I could see in the email and added a link to snopes.com after telling everyone it was bullshit used to incite fear and anger.

JL - posted on 12/09/2009

I got that e-mail as well. I corrected the information, sent it back to the original sender, and then deleted it.

I just wanted t say that there is still a fear among US Muslim of a backlash from other Americans especially when it comes around the anniversay of 9/11 and there are still Americans who look at Muslims with suspicion especially when around the anniversary of 9/11. I think this article sums how many US Muslims feel.
http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/us/2009/09...

Sara - posted on 12/09/2009

I've gotten that same email, and I agree that all stuff like that serves to do is breed hatred...

ME - posted on 12/09/2009

I've gotten that one too Laura...pretty offensive...

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

I wish I only got emails from friends ;)

USPS New 44-Cent Stamp!!!Celebrates Muslim holiday.


If there is only ONE thing you forward today .... let it be this!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine Barracks inLebanon !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military Barracks inSaudi Arabia !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies inAfrica !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE !

REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001 !

REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks !

Now President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44 Cent First ClassHoliday Postage Stamp..

REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing your stamps at the post office.

All you have to say is"No thank you, I do not want that Muslim Stamp on my letters!"

To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors.

REMEMBER ~
pass this along to every Patriotic AMERICAN that you know and lets get the word out !!!

Here is something to chew on....

They (MUSLIMS) don't even believe inChrist,& they're getting their ownChristmasstamp! BUT, don't dare to dream of posting the ten commandments on federal property! This is truly UNBELIEVABLE !!!

----------------------------

This was sent to a friend of mine...and I have received several like it over the past few years.

Note the AMERICAN in all caps...cause Muslims aren't "really" American...are they? Yes...the terrorists were Muslim...but most Muslims are not terrorists...you said in one of your posts earlier...Christian bombers didn't kill thousands of people...Timothy McVey got a few when he bombed the Oklahoma City building (and that one had a day care in it). E-mails like this only serve to breed hate. So yes...I feel protective of my Muslim friends...Much as I would feel protective of my Christian friends if we were in Lebanon and everybody was picking on them all the time.

We had a thread right on this very page about "them" wanting the right to pray on capital Hill (The Nerve)

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

Quoting dana:

Yes, some women in America feel the need to wear simple, hand made clothing for their religion, that hardly compares to covering your face or your whole body from head to toe. Although, I don't recall anyone saying that either is good for women's self esteem. So, I'm not sure what your comment actually means.

All I was saying is that it seems likely to me (given the number of muslims I know) that the same percentage of Christians wear the long dresses, with pants underneath and the big bangs, as the percentage of Muslims that wear Burquas... (In Countries where it is not the law...that they are indeed very similar groups of extremist fundamentalists.  Those muslim extremists have as much in common with most Muslims I know as the Christian fundamentalists living on compounds have with most Christians I know...which is to say...almost nothing.

And as for Christians being treated as badly as Muslims these days...I don't know how many emails you get attacking Christians and telling them to shut up and go home...but I get plenty about Muslims.

Sara - posted on 12/08/2009

I understand that...it was a tangent, but a good one!

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

I think there are a small percentage of people who think all Muslims are terrorists as well as a small percentage who think Christians are fanatics.

I wouldn't say that either are the majority.

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

Quoting Sara:

Since we're talking about the whole defending Islam thing as compared to Christians in this country and in other threads I want to add something. I do not like it when people express that all muslims are crazy terrorists and that it's their religion that makes them that way. I do not see Islam as any more fanatical than Christianity, but many people seem to think with this whole "War on Terror" is really holy war against Islam, and that's what I don't like. I do not think that every Muslim is a terrorist, just like I don't assume every Christian is an abortion doctor killer. I'm not seeking to protect Islam as some "cool" or more sacred religion than Christianity, but I have good friends that are Muslim and I am not about to let someone call my friends terrorists or make sweeping claimsthat their religion breeds fanaticism. That's ignorant in my book. AND, I do think I am critical of Christianity, but I identify myself as Christian and was raised on a Christian belief system, and to be perfectly honest, I feel that allows me to be critical of it...I may question it, but that is different from implying that all Christians are terrorists simply due to the fact that they're Christian, and I would absolutely argue with someone who ever tried to imply that.

Sara,  I think that any sane person feels this way.

Sara - posted on 12/08/2009

Well, what I struggle with is that if you look at history, Christians have done some pretty terrible things. Yet, Chrisitanity is not defined by those terrible acts people have commited in the name of God.



I guess you're right about Muslims being more protected, but really, isn't it the responsible thing to do in order NOT to propogate the idea that all Muslims are terrorists? I mean, when George Tiller was murdered this year, the guy that did it was a Chrisitan. I don't remember that being made a big deal of. I do remember people acting as if it was the lone act of a crazy person.

Sara - posted on 12/08/2009

Since we're talking about the whole defending Islam thing as compared to Christians in this country and in other threads I want to add something. I do not like it when people express that all muslims are crazy terrorists and that it's their religion that makes them that way. I do not see Islam as any more fanatical than Christianity, but many people seem to think with this whole "War on Terror" is really holy war against Islam, and that's what I don't like. I do not think that every Muslim is a terrorist, just like I don't assume every Christian is an abortion doctor killer. I'm not seeking to protect Islam as some "cool" or more sacred religion than Christianity, but I have good friends that are Muslim and I am not about to let someone call my friends terrorists or make sweeping claimsthat their religion breeds fanaticism. That's ignorant in my book. AND, I do think I am critical of Christianity, but I identify myself as Christian and was raised on a Christian belief system, and to be perfectly honest, I feel that allows me to be critical of it...I may question it, but that is different from implying that all Christians are terrorists simply due to the fact that they're Christian, and I would absolutely argue with someone who ever tried to imply that.

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

Yes, some women in America feel the need to wear simple, hand made clothing for their religion, that hardly compares to covering your face or your whole body from head to toe. Although, I don't recall anyone saying that either is good for women's self esteem. So, I'm not sure what your comment actually means.

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

ahhh...but when you go to one of those neighbourhoods...imagine you are in one of those Christian compounds where all the women dress like they are in the 1800's...there really are a lot of parallels

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

Btw, I put the disclaimer that my "cool" comment wasn't directed at anyone for that reason. I just saw the coversation could be taken another way and went there. It still was not directed at anyone.

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

I have to disagree on that one too, I think they're both victimized. People in America are not as frantic as they were about Muslims, maybe your media is still reporting that it is. I also think it depends on where you are at as far as seeing them dressed in the garb. If I were to drive to certain parts of Cleveland I'd see tons of them dressed that way.

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

I don't think it's a "cool" religion...I just feel that they are far more victimized than Christians. **this is not meant to be offensive in any way** Christa, is it possible that you see the same one or two every day?, cause honestly, it's not like we could tell the difference.

And yeah, I know, and went to school, and worked with a LOT of Muslims...and MOST of them are unrecognizable, and I'd say they vary in their devoutness ALOT along the same lines as the Christians I know. Meaning...Some are crazy, some are devout, some are true believers, and some are slack.

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

I have to say, I do find it strange that people look up to or defend the Muslim religion but, mock the Christian religion. I almost get this vibe that being of Muslim faith is "cool", it's quite absurd, imo. ~Not directed at anyone here.....

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

Yes, that was more along the lines of a joke. I understand they might not want to share their religion with you, by not talking about it. It's just a very hard religion to try and hide is all I'm saying. Not just because of the garb but because they are so devout.

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

Dana, that's not fair...In America, the majority of Muslims don't even wear hijabs (head scarves) never mind burquas (full covering). I don't know if "hide" was the right word...but they certainly avoid the topic whenever possible. I used to work in a salon that had a very strong Muslim presence...It took a long time for them to be willing to talk to me about religion...then they found out I was dating a Jew...OY VEY!

Dana - posted on 12/08/2009

I don't know if I agree with Muslims having to hide their faith. It's kind of hard to do that if the women are walking around in burqas. The only thing I've heard about them having to hide in our country is female mutilation. I agree that their religion is met with unjust anger but, I don't think anyone is hiding the fact that they're Muslim.

Isobel - posted on 12/08/2009

I bet a LOT of Muslims would agree with you. Especially in America, I think they are truly forced to hide their religion in many cases (or certainly never mention it in mixed company).

JL - posted on 12/08/2009

I agree I want my daughter exposed to all the ways in which people of various faiths and ethnicities celebrate. I actually bought a book for her about all the ways people celebrate Christmas across the world and it explains how the traditions developed. She goes to military school which is very diverse in student population so every holiday there are discussions for the kids to learn about how others celebrate. Parents of different faiths and ethnicities are invited in to discuss how things are celebrated in their home with the kids. I want her understanding how others celebrate. I want her accepting that not everyone views the holidays the same. I want her respecting others views, opinions, and means of celebration.

Isobel - posted on 12/07/2009

I think the double standard comes in when one group wants the freedom to say anything they want and don't want the other side to respond with their views. It's great to be able to say "God is great and is the foundation of this country/civilization"...but you also have to be willing to hear the other side, when people say "There is no God" and vice versa.

The separation of church and state exists for two reasons...to protect churches (they shouldn't have to marry gay people if they don't believe it is right)

and to protect citizens (not every woman in the country should be forced to wear restrictive religious garments if that's not their choice).

At my kids' school and in my community all faiths and cultures are embraced, and that's the way it should be. My kids celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, and Chinese New Year at school. I love that they are learning about all the different faiths, and I don't think any of them are diminished by the presence of the others.

JL - posted on 12/07/2009

I agree with Sara. I live in the deep South and I do not seeing anyone stunting or preventing Christian celebrations or Christian religious symbols during Christmas. My daughter was in a parade this weekend and there were 6 different Christmas floats that pertained directly to the Christian religion and had Christian symbols on them. I have worked for a number of political campaigns in varying states and claiming, upholding, and supporting Christianity is a key role in any political campaign. In Oklahoma you must be a card carrying member of the Christian Coalition if you want to get anywhere in politics. In Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina you better preach and speak at a number of Christian churches during an election and you better attend a prestigious Christian church if you want to win a race.

Honestly, I don't get letters, notifications, and e-mails pertaining to preventing Christianity or taking the Christ out of Christmas, but I am bombarded daily with letters, notifcations, and e-mails from Christians complaining that this is happening. The reality is that I have yet to see what it is they are freaking out about and mostly it is unfounded rumors and conspiracy theories that set them off. Sometimes I question just how positive is technology with all these outrages e-mails that circle around that people believe in. They just divide us even further and make us all look totally ridiculous and paranoid.

Dana - posted on 12/07/2009

I've never let myself feel unwelcome. I don't take opinion personally, or try not too. Mostly I just laugh at people like that. On either side.

Dana - posted on 12/07/2009

Quoting Christa:

Quoting dana:

Quoting Sara:

I am trying to understand what you're saying about stiffling the Christian voice in America, Christa, but I don't see it. I mean, the relgious right has a huge influence in politics in this country, I am by no means trying to attack you, I just don't understand the general sentiment because I think Christians in this country are very vocal, so vocal in fact that they have had a major impact on legislation (Prop 8). I don't call that being stifled.

I agree Sara, and the only ones bitching about Christians, are Christians.  I get so much crap sent to me about taking the word Christmas or Christ  taken out of Christmas or some stupid Muslim stamp or all the other crap emails and general arguments you hear everyday.  The only ones making issue where there is none are Christians.  Half the crap is false and it's annoying as hell.  I'm sick of it ruining my religion or any credibility that we may have left.

Consider yourself lucky then to have never encountered this type of behavior first hand.  It's everywhere.  And I do agree that some people go to far and do not express themselves in a productive manner.

Wait, slightly confused.  lol  Are you saying I should consider myself lucky to have never encountered this type of behavior?

Sara - posted on 12/07/2009

Quoting Christa:

Quoting Sara:

I am trying to understand what you're saying about stiffling the Christian voice in America, Christa, but I don't see it. I mean, the relgious right has a huge influence in politics in this country, I am by no means trying to attack you, I just don't understand the general sentiment because I think Christians in this country are very vocal, so vocal in fact that they have had a major impact on legislation (Prop 8). I don't call that being stifled.

What I mean. . . Prop 8 is a good example of the Christians standing up for what they think, however while it's easy to vote how we want, and we do, if we try and explain why we voted that way, that's when we are stiffled.  It happened in this group.  I try and explain my beliefs on the subject and I'm called hateful, bigoted, etc.  Most Christians just keep their mouths shut so that they don't have to endure such abuse.  There are many other times, abortion we are told that our opinion doesn't matter because we believe humans begin at conception.  Many times in discussion, as in this forum, I've been told I don't have a right to have my opinions in politics because it's a violation of church and state.  Meaning my opinion doesn't count because it's based on the bible.  This Christmas thing is, for me, a very clear example of how people do not want to hear the Christian opinons/beliefs in any way.  It's not just a matter of allowing others to also express their beliefs.  People want to take God off of our money, out of our pledge, no prayer in schools, etc.  It's not just to make room for the other religions/beliefs it's to silence the Christian voice.  Like that example of the man at home depot who wore the button with God on it, people want to scrub the public society of God.  Instead of allowing Christians to express their own opinions while also allowing room for others to express theirs, we are told to shut our mouths in an effort of tolerance.

 

As a Christian I run into things like this almost daily.  I must listen to whatever someone else thinks, but if I were to disagree and insert my Christian based beliefs people are outraged.  So us Christians have learned to just keep our mouths shut.

I have to say that I do think you have the right to your opinion, even though I mostly disagree with it!  :)  I think that the whole "violation" of church and state is a slippery issue.  Morals and religion are inextricably connected to the law in the United States of America, no matter how much I dislike that idea.  I don't see Christians as having to keep their mouths shut, I think they chose to because the reasoning behind their values/ideas is unpopular, and honestly offensive, to a lot people.  I guess my point is that no one is forcing you not to voice your opinion, you are chosing not to.  I agree that it is wrong to tell someone that their opinion isn't valid, but in the end you have just as much of a voice as a Christian in this country as anyone else, and some may say even more of a voice, as the religious right and Evangelicals gain more power in shaping public policy.  I am from the midwest and see Christian religous symbols everywhere...I don't see God being taken out of the public sphere. 

Dana - posted on 12/07/2009

Quoting Sara:

I am trying to understand what you're saying about stiffling the Christian voice in America, Christa, but I don't see it. I mean, the relgious right has a huge influence in politics in this country, I am by no means trying to attack you, I just don't understand the general sentiment because I think Christians in this country are very vocal, so vocal in fact that they have had a major impact on legislation (Prop 8). I don't call that being stifled.

I agree Sara, and the only ones bitching about Christians, are Christians.  I get so much crap sent to me about taking the word Christmas or Christ  taken out of Christmas or some stupid Muslim stamp or all the other crap emails and general arguments you hear everyday.  The only ones making issue where there is none are Christians.  Half the crap is false and it's annoying as hell.  I'm sick of it ruining my religion or any credibility that we may have left.

Dana - posted on 12/07/2009

Quoting Christa:

Quoting dana:

Some times opinion is hateful or close minded and when it's close minded you (general) can't see it.

That may be someone's opinion, but that doesn't mean I can not express mine.  Maybe that person is closed minded and doesn't see that in themselves.  When it comes to a person's opinions it's hard to come to that kind of conclusion because if someone accuses me of being closed minded I can throw that right back at them and we'd go around in circles without anyway of settling it.  But that's exactly what I was getting at.  People feel justified when they accuse a Christian of being closed minded etc, because it's become acceptable in our society to stiffle the Christian voice.

Uh, that just sounds like one big circle to me.  My statement wasn't meant for one side or the other, it is meant for BOTH sides of any issue. 

Sara - posted on 12/07/2009

I am trying to understand what you're saying about stiffling the Christian voice in America, Christa, but I don't see it. I mean, the relgious right has a huge influence in politics in this country, I am by no means trying to attack you, I just don't understand the general sentiment because I think Christians in this country are very vocal, so vocal in fact that they have had a major impact on legislation (Prop 8). I don't call that being stifled.

Amie - posted on 12/07/2009

Ugh.. that's as retarded as when the Da Vinci Code came out. The Catholics were in an uproar. It's fiction. Get over it. While some parts may be true it still isn't going to sway any true believers of their faith. If it did sway any I'd wager they were unsure of their own faith to begin with.

I actually enjoyed the book, I enjoyed Angels & Demons too. I actually just watched that movie a little while ago. Was not impressed they left out a HUGE part of the plot. Books are always better than the movies though.

Sara - posted on 12/07/2009

Oh, yeah, I work with people who think that as well...I love HP!

Dana - posted on 12/07/2009

Some times opinion is hateful or close minded and when it's close minded you (general) can't see it.

Sara - posted on 12/07/2009

What about Harry Potter?

Sara - posted on 12/06/2009

I, too, think it's ridiculous. In fact, at work last week, my co-worker decided that she wanted to decorate our floor with some holiday cheer. She rounded up used ornaments and trees that were in storage that no one else was using, and it actually looks very nice. We got several compliments on it and one person even came into our office and said "You go!", like we were running some underground rebel society or something. It is ridiculous that you can't even put a damn tree any more...so many of the things we do to celebrate Christmas are actually pagen traditions anyway. BUT on the flip side, we had several people offer their praise to us for decorating and then turn around and say that our country was founded on freedom of religion and if people want to complain about our display, that can just go back to where ever they came from. That ruined it fo me, I don't think that's an appropriate attitude either. I mean, we do have freedom of religion and freedom of speech, to tell someone to pack up and go away I find to be an ignorant attitude. I'm not sure exactly why someone would be offended by Christmas decorations in the first place, no one is forcing you to celebrate anything, but I don't like it when the attitude shifts to the extreme when defending it either.