Double Standards

Amie - posted on 09/29/2009

The example you gave is the hospitals way of protecting itself. Even if I was in a car crash and was not able to speak for myself they would go to my husband. It's just how it's done so their behinds are not on the line if something goes wrong and the person dies.

When something like an abortion comes into play it is a personal decision. They patient is fully conscience and aware of what they are walking into. Here though it is done very differently as you well know from my own story of going through one. If in the states people are not as informed then that is something that needs to rectified. Not just for teenagers but for all people.

Amie - posted on 09/29/2009

Christa I have my opinion because my parents raised me this way. I am raising my children the same way. Not all teenagers only think of today. That's a blanket statement that can not be applied.

I started working when I was 15. I paid my way and even tried giving money to my parents, they never accepted it though and always told me to save. It's how I bought my first car. I had my career picked out by the time I graduated.
My one brother was the same way. He had his career picked out by the time he was 14.
My sister is now 16 and doing the exact same thing! She is struggling with what career she wants though but she is looking at them all.
My youngest brother is 15, has a job, goes to school and he also knows what he wants to do for a career.He has been looking into universities for the last year.

It is part and parcel of how we were raised. Our parents were very strict with us as children and we earned our freedom when we were teenagers. However, on top of all that we still had at home chores and a curfew on school nights. If we ever broke one of those it was within my parents right to ground us, take away our vehicles, suspend phone privileges or whatever discipline they thought warranted. It didn't happen often though, even when I went through my rebellious stage I wasn't half as bad as some teenagers are every day.
I'm not saying I didn't make my share of ridiculous decisions but I turned out the way I am directly because of my parents. They were raised the same way. They started working young and did their fair share. In return they were allowed more privileges than most teenagers.

While teenagers are still part child it is why we are there to GUIDE them. We can not tell them what to do all the time. They will not become individuals this way. They will become dependent on another person to tell them what to do. They need to make their own mistakes to learn.

I am in no way advocating not having an open line of communication with your children. I have one in place already, I had one with my parents, as they did with theirs. If my child/teenager is doing something behind my back again.... That is MY failure as a parent, not hers/his. It is my duty to let my children know they can come to me always and get a nonjudgmental attitude, guidance and acceptance. We have to let go sometime and when they are teenagers is when the waters are tested to make sure they will be ready for adulthood on their own.

Amie - posted on 09/29/2009

What makes you think that she wouldn't have thought of all the options? Just because you hadn't talked to her?

While teenagers do make mistakes they are not, on the whole, stupid.

Amie - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Christa:

So what if your daughter got pregnant and someone took her to get an abortion and you never even had a chance to talk to her about it?  If you wouldn't force her to do anything wouldn't you want her to have to tell you about it so at least you could make sure she’s thought it through?  They need permission to give her aspirin at school, but not to have an abortion.  That doesn't make any sense.

 

1) I would not have a problem with her getting someone else to go with/take her. She obviously picked someone she can trust. If she can't trust me then I have failed as a parent and that fault is my own, not hers.

2) My child should never be forced to tell me anything. She can freely tell me anything she wishes but she is not forced to tell me anything. She does know that telling the truth is always better, no matter if it hurts, causes disappointment or for us to ground her... she still tells the truth. She trusts us to treat her fairly. She knows she is not yet our equal since she is young but she is growing up and fast learning things. With each bit of knowledge she gains and uses gives her a bit more freedom from parental rule.

3) The reason a school needs a permission slip is because THEY are not doctors. A doctor can diagnose and treat a person because they have the education and knowledge to support that diagnosis and treatment. School personel do not.  Simple to understand. And yes even Asprin falls into that category because some are allergic to it.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

I am raising my daughter to make her own educated decisions about her body and am open to her about it. She will be well aware of the consequences and options before she is actively participating. Of course I would want her to tell me and I do not doubt that she will come to me of her own free will should something like that occur. Mind you, she's not a teenager yet so I'll check back with you on that one lol.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Then what is your "reasoning"?

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jenny:

Quoting Lindsay:

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage.

I have never talked to anyone who was against gay marriage for non-religious reasons.

Church should not be allowed to write marriage licenses period. Seperation of church and state. Legally marry with your state, spiritual marriage/union/whateveryouwanttocallit in your church. Win/win. If you are marrying for god then why would you care if the state recognizes it anyway? 

Well, I for one have never used the Bible as a reason I don't believe in gay marriage.  While I do agree with that, that is not the reason I give for being against it. :)

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Quoting Jenny:

Sorry Lindsay, should have said repealed, not changed.

What changed with minors getting abortions?

Some states have said minors can't get abortions without parental consent some states have said they can.  I believe it was California that made it legal for someone to take minors across state lines to get abortions without parental consent. 

Once a girl is pregnant she is the only one who makes the decision on what to do with the pregnancy  no matter what age. I have a daughter and I intend to maintain a relationship where:

1) she's not out having sex of course

2) should 1) not work out and she becomes pregnant she would come to me first as her support system.

I want her to come willingly and do not require that by law.

Parents can give advice, bitch and moan etc. but they don't get to make the decision. Again, that brings girls back to the coat hanger route if they really do not want to complete the pregnancy. I'm an advocate for harm reduction.

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

Lindsay, you're right..I should not lump all Christians together. I should have started my questions with - why do people play God and judge others based on their biased view of the Bible, all the while pretending they have little or no need for govt regulation of themselves and their decisions?



deleted and reposted...having fb probs and it looked like it showed up in 2 threads...okay now.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Quoting Jenny:

Quoting Lindsay:

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage.

I have never talked to anyone who was against gay marriage for non-religious reasons.

Church should not be allowed to write marriage licenses period. Seperation of church and state. Legally marry with your state, spiritual marriage/union/whateveryouwanttocallit in your church. Win/win. If you are marrying for god then why would you care if the state recognizes it anyway? 

Maybe talk to some more people because i know plenty.  You do have to have a marriage license from the state before you can get married, as far as i know the church doesn't  write marriage licenses to anyone.  They give you something that says you were married in the church but the actual license comes from the court house.  I really don't see gay marriage as being a big deal.  Divorce rates are 51% for straight couples so the argument that gays will ruin marriage doesn't really play out for me

Where I live gay marriage is already normal and legal so I guess that's the disparity.  I have found the people who are against LBGT individuals in general are usually just grossed out by male intercourse and cross dressing.  

Our state issues licenses too but the church can officiate and sign the legal document.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jenny:

Sorry Lindsay, should have said repealed, not changed.

What changed with minors getting abortions?

Some states have said minors can't get abortions without parental consent some states have said they can.  I believe it was California that made it legal for someone to take minors across state lines to get abortions without parental consent. 

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jenny:

Quoting Lindsay:

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage.

I have never talked to anyone who was against gay marriage for non-religious reasons.

Church should not be allowed to write marriage licenses period. Seperation of church and state. Legally marry with your state, spiritual marriage/union/whateveryouwanttocallit in your church. Win/win. If you are marrying for god then why would you care if the state recognizes it anyway? 

Maybe talk to some more people because i know plenty.  You do have to have a marriage license from the state before you can get married, as far as i know the church doesn't  write marriage licenses to anyone.  They give you something that says you were married in the church but the actual license comes from the court house.  I really don't see gay marriage as being a big deal.  Divorce rates are 51% for straight couples so the argument that gays will ruin marriage doesn't really play out for me

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Sorry Lindsay, should have said repealed, not changed.



What changed with minors getting abortions?

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage.

I have never talked to anyone who was against gay marriage for non-religious reasons.

Church should not be allowed to write marriage licenses period. Seperation of church and state. Legally marry with your state, spiritual marriage/union/whateveryouwanttocallit in your church. Win/win. If you are marrying for god then why would you care if the state recognizes it anyway? 

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jenny:

The abortion laws will NEVER change. It is about providing medically safe alternatives to women who would otherwise be using a coat hanger. If you want to diminish abortion, and we ALL do, the plan is education, access to birth control and ease of adoption. Take your (general your, so sick of having to add that on every frickin post) passion there and away from hospital/abortion clinic picket lines and you will see REAL progress.

The abortion laws have actually already changed.  Late term abortion and minors getting abortions laws have all had changes recently.  So it's not that crazy to think that other abortion laws could change as well.

Adoption laws do need to be changed.  There is a reason more people are going to different countries to adopt, and while that is great we have the same need in this country.  It shouldn't cost a bundle and take years to adopt a child. 

Maybe people should take the message of education to the picket lines.  I don't think every abortion clinic in the US is safe for women so it's basically the same as using a coat hanger.  If women have to have an abortion i want to make sure they aren't causing long term damage to themselves. There have been many cases of botched abortions where women couldn't have children later in life when they wanted them.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage.

I have never talked to anyone who was against gay marriage for non-religious reasons.

Church should not be allowed to write marriage licenses period. Seperation of church and state. Legally marry with your state, spiritual marriage/union/whateveryouwanttocallit in your church. Win/win. If you are marrying for god then why would you care if the state recognizes it anyway? 

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

My point about gay marriage is that it is a case for human rights...these should never be voted on, it's nobody's right to "decide" whether or not they are equal human beings.

Like I said, I believe that all states should perform ONLY civil unions (gay and straight) and that churches should not be able to sign legal documents. If you want to be married in the eyes of god, get the church to do it, if you want to be married in the eyes of the law, get the state to do it.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Maybe except that it's not just Christians that aren't for gay marriage. Some see it as a state rights issue which is why California voted on it. There are different ways to look at every issue and i don't think it's fair to put all the blame on Christians for certain issues

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

The abortion laws will NEVER change. It is about providing medically safe alternatives to women who would otherwise be using a coat hanger. If you want to diminish abortion, and we ALL do, the plan is education, access to birth control and ease of adoption. Take your (general your, so sick of having to add that on every frickin post) passion there and away from hospital/abortion clinic picket lines and you will see REAL progress.

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

The argument that abortion is murder could be made philisophically, with or without the Christian argument...that is what I believe sets that argument apart from that of gay marriage.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jeannette:

Abortion is legal...killing your 30 year old neighbor is illegal...according to the Bible, we are to obey the laws of our land.

and my point is some Christians view abortion as murder and thats why they want it to be illegal.   The laws of our land have changed many times and we get new laws everyday and some states have voted to ban abortion so laws can vary from state to state and they can change depending on the will of the people.

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

Since we agree entirely about abortion...we can knock that one off the table.

I know plenty of gay people who insist that marriage is what they want, not legal rights...their issue is equality, not insurance.

when I say "you" I am referring to the thread about Christian double standards...it is a plural and general you, not specific.

My point about money breeding money, not being allowed to eat shellfish, not being able to wear clothing made from two different types of clothe, etc, etc ad nauseum, is that modern religious people use the quotes from the bible that they like and ignore what they don't...double standard.

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

Abortion is legal...killing your 30 year old neighbor is illegal...according to the Bible, we are to obey the laws of our land.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jeannette:

  My point was this: if abortions are legal, and not forced, why would Christians have a problem with living with free will?    Great, I don't see a lot of pickets and protests for more counseling, easier and more affordable adoptions, or financial help with any of these.  

In civil union, do you mean a marriage certificate that documents and recognizes that two people of the same sex were bonded in marriage? 

I didn't ask anyone to drop their belief system to suit me.  Christians and wealthy individuals (should there be atheists among them) do give generously.  HOWEVER, Christians will fight for their right to earn as much as they please.  Even defend the head of a corporation and apply trickle down theories, which we know to be false. Why are we in the financial rut we are in now? Power/moneylust, which can go hand in hand - because money is power.  Great, fight for the freedom to earn more, because you deserve trust that you will do the "right" thing with your wealth.  But you don't fight for all freedoms for individuals do you?  Just yours. 
I won't deny that I am not a Biblical scholar...but I think too many Christians think they are...and they are wagging their righteous fingers at those they deem unrighteous.  Does the Bible not tell us we are all sinners?  If you ask yourselves what would Jesus do...do you ever really think of Jesus and what he would do?  He was loving, forgiving, accepting...and the Bible said that we would have free will, right?  So what are you afraid of?  Does the decisions of others affect your chances of getting into Heaven?

 

So you wouldn't have a problem if it were legal to murder someone just as long as you weren't forced to murder anyone?  Thats how some Christians view abortion.  It's not about being forced to have one it's the theory that abortion is murder.  It's really not that hard to understand even if you don't agree with it. 

Are you really judging all pro lifers on the ones you see at protests? 

Civil unions give the gay couple the legal right to have their lives together whether it be sharing insurance or medical rights. 

My personal belief is that everyone sins and you can be forgiven for those sins but no one can live their lives word for word from the bible.  Im sure some try but it would be very hard to do.  Jesus was forgiving and he didn't judge anyone.  He did hang out with hookers after all so anyone that says Jesus wouldn't be forgiving is reading the bible wrong.  Anyone can get into heaven as long as they accept Jesus and ask for forgiviness.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Because they are the same, it gives gays legal rights that married couples get but it's not called marriage. Thats what gays want, they want to be able to have legal rights regarding their spouse. My gay friends don't give a crap what its called as long as they are able to take care of and plan for the future of their families.



Abortion is based on personal beliefs. My opinion on abortion has nothing to do with what religion i practice or what party i belong to. Im sure everyone's reasons for being pro life or pro choice are different. In general im not a fan of lumping everyone into one group.



You keep saying "you" like you even know what my religion is and what my opinion is. Jesus wanted people to take care of others and in this day and age im not going to judge someone that makes money and shares their wealth with those that don't have it. Maybe some people like to use that as an excuse to be against religion but thats kind of silly

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Some Christians want abortion to be illegal because they feel that it is murder and since murder is already illegal it makes sense to them that abortion should also be. No one is forced to do a lot of the things that are currently illegal so thats not really a great example.  My point was this: if abortions are legal, and not forced, why would Christians have a problem with living with free will?   I also know many Christians that do not want abortion to be illegal they just want other options discussed before the option of abortion is brought up, they want women to be educated about their options and they want further studies done on the side effects of abortion because there are a lot both short term and long term, emotional and physical. Great, I don't see a lot of pickets and protests for more counseling, easier and more affordable adoptions, or financial help with any of these. 

Some Christians are against gay marriage but are for civil unions which are the same thing.  In civil union, do you mean a marriage certificate that documents and recognizes that two people of the same sex were bonded in marriage? 

I think you have a misunderstanding of Christians. They are not outraged by people that have lower morol standards but they aren't going to forget their standards just because some people don't have any. I didn't ask anyone to drop their belief system to suit me.  Im not sure where you get they accept the pursuit of money lust because there have been studies that have shown states with more Christians are the states that have higher charity donations. Also the first groups there after Katrina were Christian groups and they were also the last to leave. so you can have money its what you do with that money that counts. I will work hard to support my family but i also give what i can to various groups and i give my time to others as well. Christians and wealthy individuals (should there be atheists among them) do give generously.  HOWEVER, Christians will fight for their right to earn as much as they please.  Even defend the head of a corporation and apply trickle down theories, which we know to be false. Why are we in the financial rut we are in now? Power/moneylust, which can go hand in hand - because money is power.  Great, fight for the freedom to earn more, because you deserve trust that you will do the "right" thing with your wealth.  But you don't fight for all freedoms for individuals do you?  Just yours. 
You claim Jesus was a great teacher but i think you missed a couple of his lessons  I won't deny that I am not a Biblical scholar...but I think too many Christians think they are...and they are wagging their righteous fingers at those they deem unrighteous.  Does the Bible not tell us we are all sinners?  If you ask yourselves what would Jesus do...do you ever really think of Jesus and what he would do?  He was loving, forgiving, accepting...and the Bible said that we would have free will, right?  So what are you afraid of?  Does the decisions of others affect your chances of getting into Heaven?

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

1. If you don't care about gay marriage, then why say that they are the same as civil unions when clearly, they are not.

2. Perhaps I used the wrong term when I said ideological...what I meant was it crosses lines and is based on personal beliefs, not rules of churches- but you are right it also crosses political lines as well.

3 I don't believe in the judeo/christian concepts of good and evil...it is your "good book" that tells you why Jesus threw the money traders out of the temple- money breeding money is evil according to Jesus, not me...look it up.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Who said I care? I personally don't care if gays get married and call it marriage or civil unions but some people think marriage is between a man and a woman.

I don't see abortion as a religious or a idealogical issue because there are people of all religions and all political parties that don't share the same views as their religion or political party.



Yeah taking care of your family and giving money to people in need is sooo evil lol.

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

"Some Christians are against gay marriage but are for civil unions which are the same thing."

if civil unions and marriages are the same thing...why do you care so much? It's like saying "let's build the exact same neighbourhood as ours ten miles down the road for gay people to live in" that way they can't complain about not being able to live in our neighbourhood.

I actually don't see the abortion debate as religious at all...I see it as ideological. I know lots of christians that believe other women should have the right to choose regardless of the christian ideal, and I know lots of unreligious pro-lifers.

But you have to admit...you guys do pick and choose what suits you...otherwise none of you would have 401ks...money breeding money is evil.

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Traci:

Lots of people have kids out of wedlock today. I'm not saying the kid is a mistake, but the woman putting herself in the situation to get pregnant when she is not married is indeed a mistake, IN MY OPINION.

I am entitled to have an opinion over here, right??? Or does it have to be "the correct" opinion???

Judgemental? Okay, I'll take that. That doesn't offend me. I think people aren't judgemental enough sometimes. If you make a mistake, should I just shake my head and make excuses for it and tell you its okay? Or should we own up to our mistakes, recognize them, and then find a way to rectify the situation or at the very least learn from our mistakes???
I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at a situation and deciding for yourself if you think it is right or wrong. Now, I'm not going to go up to someone such as your sister and wag my finger at her and tell her she's wrong, but would I assess the situation within my own head and say I don't agree with it? You bet! What is wrong with that???

Heh...there's LOTS of people in my own family who had and have kids out of wedlock, I'm not looking down on anyone, I just think there are better situations in which to raise children in. There's nothing rude about that. Rude would be if I confronted them on those mistakes. But I don't...I keep my opinions to myself....except on COM of course, because this IS the place for debate--right???

Traci, I agree, there are better situations in which to raise kids than what some kids are currently getting.  Be it two parent or single parent homes.  I happen to be married and enjoy and appreciate my husband's contributions. However, he is not the biological father of my two daughters. 

A woman that endured 5, 7, 12 years of abuse because she was doing it for the kids?  I understand you stated that you don't agree with that either.  Right?  So, yeah, we can form judgements in our heads (I'll allow all humans to have human qualities - good or bad)...but I think we should show love, acceptance, forgiveness, humility, humbleness.  We decide which place we are going to come from when speaking to people, and as I have stated before, I  am not perfect, and I do not expect perfection.  Therefore, I acknowledge that yes, some of us make bad decisions, but that doesn't make us incapable of good decisions.  If we constantly refer to women who've had their babies out of wedlock as people with bad judgement, will these women ever be able to trust that they are capable of good decisions?  Because, yes, we make mistakes, but we can make good choices too.

 I think very few of us don't make any decisions because we are afraid we are going to make a mistake.  So, if a woman has endured years of abuse, maybe in her mind, she has decided marrying a man is a mistake.  Is she wrong?  In your eyes yes...heck to most of us who have really good marriages to great men, yes, AND no, she's not wrong.  She formed her opinion based on her experience.  I could beat her down, destroy her with words, or I could be encouraging.  For anyone who has seen me as less than encouraging of people in the past, I acquiesse, I am not perfect...but I can strive to be better. 

 I can tell her that she made a good choice in realizing her self worth, her children's worth, and her own strength.  I could encourage her to be strong; encourage her to be positive; encourage her to better herself; encourage her to encourage her children; or I could tell her, your kids need a dad, it really takes two to raise children with well rounded ideas.  I could continue to break her down when she already feels broken.  Where is the progress?  How would that possibly help her?  If I encourage her, she may very well find the courage to take the steps in improving her life, her children's lives, her career....and maybe one day, she actually meets a man on her own that shows her all men are not evil.  Maybe she's had it so bad, no man could.  Maybe I could be understanding, patient, and accepting. 

Alison - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Lindsay:

Some Christians want abortion to be illegal because they feel that it is murder and since murder is already illegal it makes sense to them that abortion should also be. No one is forced to do a lot of the things that are currently illegal so thats not really a great example. I also know many Christians that do not want abortion to be illegal they just want other options discussed before the option of abortion is brought up, they want women to be educated about their options and they want further studies done on the side effects of abortion because there are a lot both short term and long term, emotional and physical.

Some Christians are against gay marriage but are for civil unions which are the same thing.

I think you have a misunderstanding of Christians. They are not outraged by people that have lower morol standards but they aren't going to forget their standards just because some people don't have any. Im not sure where you get they accept the pursuit of money lust because there have been studies that have shown states with more Christians are the states that have higher charity donations. Also the first groups there after Katrina were Christian groups and they were also the last to leave. so you can have money its what you do with that money that counts. I will work hard to support my family but i also give what i can to various groups and i give my time to others as well.
You claim Jesus was a great teacher but i think you missed a couple of his lessons

What Lindsay said.

Lindsay - posted on 09/28/2009

Some Christians want abortion to be illegal because they feel that it is murder and since murder is already illegal it makes sense to them that abortion should also be. No one is forced to do a lot of the things that are currently illegal so thats not really a great example. I also know many Christians that do not want abortion to be illegal they just want other options discussed before the option of abortion is brought up, they want women to be educated about their options and they want further studies done on the side effects of abortion because there are a lot both short term and long term, emotional and physical.



Some Christians are against gay marriage but are for civil unions which are the same thing.



I think you have a misunderstanding of Christians. They are not outraged by people that have lower morol standards but they aren't going to forget their standards just because some people don't have any. Im not sure where you get they accept the pursuit of money lust because there have been studies that have shown states with more Christians are the states that have higher charity donations. Also the first groups there after Katrina were Christian groups and they were also the last to leave. so you can have money its what you do with that money that counts. I will work hard to support my family but i also give what i can to various groups and i give my time to others as well.

You claim Jesus was a great teacher but i think you missed a couple of his lessons

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

You sound like you've made wonderful decisions in response to the road your life has come upon. It sounds like you are a happy person and I am happy for you :)

Cathy - posted on 09/28/2009

I take full responsibility for making a mistake in judgement that led to my eldests son's conception. I, in no way consider my son to be a mistake, but his father was a very bad choice. I was pretty much ordered by him to have an abortion. Personally I could never go through with an abortion. Regardless of my stance on the legality of abortion, in my body thats a life growing and I wasn't going to give that up. He promptly moved to the other side of the country leaving no forwarding address. So I did the best I could for my son through the huge trials that we faced.
The Father of my youngest and I have a life together. We have a house. We have a car. He is a fantastic Dad to my eldest regardless of biology. I can't find any mistakes in us choosing to have a baby together. I don't need to be married to know that my children are being raised in a house full of love.

I have my values in life firmly routed in Christianity, or rather the values of Jesus Christ. As Jeanette said I believe in forgiveness, acceptance, love, patience, understanding, joy, praise, worship, humility and humbleness...to name a few.

Through the eyes of the church (or atleast the churches I've been to) my children or atleast the way they came into the world is viewed as a sin. My children are miracles, I'm not going to ask for forgiveness for that.

Dana - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Traci:

Lots of people have kids out of wedlock today. I'm not saying the kid is a mistake, but the woman putting herself in the situation to get pregnant when she is not married is indeed a mistake, IN MY OPINION. I already addressed this in my post, don't know why you are bringing it up. 

I am entitled to have an opinion over here, right??? Or does it have to be "the correct" opinion??? Of course you may have an opinion.  That is exactly what it is in my last post.  I've now formed a whole nother opinion. 

Judgemental? Okay, I'll take that. That doesn't offend me. I think people aren't judgemental enough sometimes. If you make a mistake, should I just shake my head and make excuses for it and tell you its okay?It's only a "mistake" because you are saying it is. Or should we own up to our mistakes, recognize them, and then find a way to rectify the situation or at the very least learn from our mistakes???
I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at a situation and deciding for yourself if you think it is right or wrong. Now, I'm not going to go up to someone such as your sister and wag my finger at her and tell her she's wrong, but would I assess the situation within my own head and say I don't agree with it? You bet! What is wrong with that??? Nothing if you prefer to be a judgemental person as you have already admitted to.

Heh...there's LOTS of people in my own family who had and have kids out of wedlock, I'm not looking down on anyone, I just think there are better situations in which to raise children in. There's nothing rude about that. Rude would be if I confronted them on those mistakes. But I don't...I keep my opinions to myself....except on COM of course, because this IS the place for debate--right??? Yes, that's why we are debating  :)

Alison - posted on 09/28/2009

Jeannette, Your guess is as good as mine. I don't have any opinions about what unbelievers do. Plus I'm in favour of recyled products and I hate the unbiblical "name it, claim it"/prosperity gospel.

I think most of these ideas come from prominant TV pastors of mega churches.I personally have never visited one of these churches and I don't plan on it anytime in the future. This and the net is probably the closest non-Christians ever get to christianity so thay think it's all like that.

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

Lots of people have kids out of wedlock today. I'm not saying the kid is a mistake, but the woman putting herself in the situation to get pregnant when she is not married is indeed a mistake, IN MY OPINION.



I am entitled to have an opinion over here, right??? Or does it have to be "the correct" opinion???



Judgemental? Okay, I'll take that. That doesn't offend me. I think people aren't judgemental enough sometimes. If you make a mistake, should I just shake my head and make excuses for it and tell you its okay? Or should we own up to our mistakes, recognize them, and then find a way to rectify the situation or at the very least learn from our mistakes???

I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at a situation and deciding for yourself if you think it is right or wrong. Now, I'm not going to go up to someone such as your sister and wag my finger at her and tell her she's wrong, but would I assess the situation within my own head and say I don't agree with it? You bet! What is wrong with that???



Heh...there's LOTS of people in my own family who had and have kids out of wedlock, I'm not looking down on anyone, I just think there are better situations in which to raise children in. There's nothing rude about that. Rude would be if I confronted them on those mistakes. But I don't...I keep my opinions to myself....except on COM of course, because this IS the place for debate--right???

Dana - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Traci:

I never said I was, Cathy. But more often than not it means I am providing a more stable, healthier environment in which to raise my children. I don't know your situation. I'm sure you are a fine mother.

Nobody's perfect, life happens, I'm not saying your a bad mom, I don't even know you. Don't take offense. I just think kids need a mother AND a father. There is a reason that kids born to single mothers are more prone to drugs, pregnancy, poverty, and dropping out. That's not to say that EVERY child of a single parent will do those things, but many do. To give a child the best chance at success, they need to have their mother and their father. Of course I'm speaking in general here. There are AWESOME single mothers there are AWESOME single fathers, but, in general, kids do better in whole families.

Like I said, I don't know the chain of events that brought you to where you are today, it's none of my business. What I was originally talking about was responsibility and abortion a few posts ago. Do I think it is responsible to put yourself in a postition to get pregnant when you are not married? No, I don't. Does it happen to even the best of people? You bet. That doesn't make someone a bad person, it just means they made mistakes, like we all do. I'm not saying we should shun them and point and tease or anything here. They need support from their friends and family in such cases. I'm just saying what I believe is right and "not-so-right." In the case of divorce, that is something entirely different.

Anyway...I was asked to elaborate on my thoughts and I did. I'm not judging your mothering abilities based upon your marital status, please don't misunderstand. :)

Traci, 2 of my 3 sister's had children out of wedlock.  I hardly think they are mistakes and I know you didn't say that children are mistakes but a mistake made by the mother.  I still think it's rude and judgemental.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

I believe in a strong family unit but that means different things to different people. I do not believe in the institution of marriage and will never marry. I do believe in commitment and have been together with my partner for almost 10 years with two beautiful kids. I ws raised in different circumstances though. My dad died in a car accident when I was 6. It was my uncles who stepped up and became my father figures. I think if you are in a close knit community/family there are certainly exceptions to the rule. We now live in such an unemphatetic and selfish age that no one wants to fill the roles these children need in their lives. Before the single family subdivision communites we have now we lived together with women and men collectively instilling values on the children. So what it comes down to is there is no right or wrong way but children do need a strong, positive influence from both males and females.

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Jeannette:

Quoting Traci:

Quoting Cathy:

Traci, are you suggesting that, in your ideal world, abortion be illegal, and adoption be forced on mothers who don't fit your ideal of the perfect family? Give all the babies to all the good, moral, married, Christian couples to raise the children right?

Must be nice having never made a mistake in your oh so perfect life.

Did you even read all the posts???  Obviously you didn't because if you did, you'd have seen that I wrote I'm not saying this should be LEGISLATED or anything, but that is what I think is proper.  GEEZ!!! 

 

I don't claim to be perfect, I never have.  But, I have led my life in a responsible way and with my upbringing, that is a FEAT, let me tell ya!!!  So, go ahead and resent me because I think people can and should do better.  I believe in people....

 

I believe in forgiveness, acceptance, love, patience, understanding, joy, praise, worship, humility and humbleness...to name a few.

....and so do I.

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

I never said I was, Cathy. But more often than not it means I am providing a more stable, healthier environment in which to raise my children. I don't know your situation. I'm sure you are a fine mother.



Nobody's perfect, life happens, I'm not saying your a bad mom, I don't even know you. Don't take offense. I just think kids need a mother AND a father. There is a reason that kids born to single mothers are more prone to drugs, pregnancy, poverty, and dropping out. That's not to say that EVERY child of a single parent will do those things, but many do. To give a child the best chance at success, they need to have their mother and their father. Of course I'm speaking in general here. There are AWESOME single mothers there are AWESOME single fathers, but, in general, kids do better in whole families.



Like I said, I don't know the chain of events that brought you to where you are today, it's none of my business. What I was originally talking about was responsibility and abortion a few posts ago. Do I think it is responsible to put yourself in a postition to get pregnant when you are not married? No, I don't. Does it happen to even the best of people? You bet. That doesn't make someone a bad person, it just means they made mistakes, like we all do. I'm not saying we should shun them and point and tease or anything here. They need support from their friends and family in such cases. I'm just saying what I believe is right and "not-so-right." In the case of divorce, that is something entirely different.



Anyway...I was asked to elaborate on my thoughts and I did. I'm not judging your mothering abilities based upon your marital status, please don't misunderstand. :)

Dana - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Cathy:

I don't resent you Traci ... I just don't think a ring and a piece of paper means you're any better a mother than me.

I completely agree, Cathy. 

My sister married her boyfriend because she got pregnant and it was the "christian thing to do".  She spent 10 yrs in a marriage with a jerk who ended up a herion addict.  She and the kids, by now she had 3, had a horrible ten years and after many years of the church telling her to stick it out and they'll help clean him up (as if that was possible) she finally got a divorce.  The only good thing that came out of that was my 3 beautiful nieces.

Cathy - posted on 09/28/2009

I don't resent you Traci ... I just don't think a ring and a piece of paper means you're any better a mother than me.

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Traci:

Quoting Cathy:

Traci, are you suggesting that, in your ideal world, abortion be illegal, and adoption be forced on mothers who don't fit your ideal of the perfect family? Give all the babies to all the good, moral, married, Christian couples to raise the children right?

Must be nice having never made a mistake in your oh so perfect life.

Did you even read all the posts???  Obviously you didn't because if you did, you'd have seen that I wrote I'm not saying this should be LEGISLATED or anything, but that is what I think is proper.  GEEZ!!! 

 

I don't claim to be perfect, I never have.  But, I have led my life in a responsible way and with my upbringing, that is a FEAT, let me tell ya!!!  So, go ahead and resent me because I think people can and should do better.  I believe in people....

 

I believe in forgiveness, acceptance, love, patience, understanding, joy, praise, worship, humility and humbleness...to name a few.

Traci - posted on 09/28/2009

Quoting Cathy:

Traci, are you suggesting that, in your ideal world, abortion be illegal, and adoption be forced on mothers who don't fit your ideal of the perfect family? Give all the babies to all the good, moral, married, Christian couples to raise the children right?

Must be nice having never made a mistake in your oh so perfect life.

Did you even read all the posts???  Obviously you didn't because if you did, you'd have seen that I wrote I'm not saying this should be LEGISLATED or anything, but that is what I think is proper.  GEEZ!!! 

I don't claim to be perfect, I never have.  But, I have led my life in a responsible way and with my upbringing, that is a FEAT, let me tell ya!!!  So, go ahead and resent me because I think people can and should do better.  I believe in people....

ME - posted on 09/28/2009

I think Amy made a great point as well...so many conservatives are all about small government, unless a big government would fulfill their desires! It's another example of hypocricy...and it's unsupportable.

Cathy - posted on 09/28/2009

Traci, are you suggesting that, in your ideal world, abortion be illegal, and adoption be forced on mothers who don't fit your ideal of the perfect family? Give all the babies to all the good, moral, married, Christian couples to raise the children right?

Must be nice having never made a mistake in your oh so perfect life.

Jenny - posted on 09/27/2009

Quoting Jeannette:

Double Standards

Since religion keeps getting brought into political discussions, because everyone can't seem to seperate the two, I have some thoughts.
1. Why do Christians want to make abortion illegal, if they are not forced? Because they think their views on the subject are morally superior to people who are pro-choice and that gives them the right to push their beliefs on the evil pro-choicers. My stand is if the fetus can survive outside the womb it's murder. So that's where I draw the line. I do not grant other people the right to decide what I do with my own body no matter how many laws there are.

2. Why do Christians get angry about the govt possibly enforcing the use of recycled products because it interferes with their freedoms and rights...BUT are completely and utterly against gay marriage? Will this make you gay? Because they refuse to see the bigger picture and are more concerned with the immediate effects to them personally. It has nothing to do with freedoms and rights and is more about crying because they don't want to be told what to do. I understand that mentality as I am mostly a libertarian unless it affects others. Killing our environment with waste directly affects others so in that case I put the rights of our species to have alivable planet ahead of your right to not give a crap about it.

The gay marraige part. Well, I"ve spoke my piece on that many times. It does not affect you and does not lead to others things. It is bigoted thinking plain and simple no matter how much they want to sugarcoat it and call it biblical thinking. It is gross and wrong and we will look back on this in disgust in 100 years when pull our heads out of asses and provide a world where we all have equal rights. Thankfully each generation is becoming more tolerant than the last so it won't be too much longer before the diehards,  well die, and we can have progress finally. A good start would be denying churches the right to sign legal documents. If they are marrying in front of their god why would they care if the state recognized it after all?

3. Why are Christians outraged by people who have lower moral standards but readily accept the pursuit of money lust? Good points up top about the Darwinism of money but I think ins ome peoples cases it is beyond that. Sure everyone loves a hard work rags to riches story and good for them for making somethnig of themselves. Once you reach a certain point of wealth it is likely you will continue to collect wealth. It is not earned, it is money creating more money. There's nothing to respect about that in my mind. I don't look at someone with a billion dollars and think that person is so lucky. I think how sad that hundreds (if not thousands) of families cannot have a livable wage because this person has a billion dollars. I don't hate rich people, we make six figures a year and are doing well for ourselves. I hate the system that gives to so few and takes from so many. It's just not very human.

Before you get all uppitty about my lack of understanding of faith and religion...let me say this:
I believe in God. He is my Father, He loves me unconditionally, we have a bond, and no person can break that bond. I do not take the Bible literally, therefore, I can accept that Jesus was a man who was led by God to teach us how we should live among each other. He was a great teacher, an inspirational example. And he was the original socialist.

Amy - posted on 09/27/2009

Wow, can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Laura! As a conservative I feel we have too much government interference, So why would I support giving them more ways to intervene in anyone's life. As for abortion, it's not for me, I am pro-life for me, my children and my future grandchildren, but as for anyone else...it is an extremely difficult decision for most to make, and I believe a lot of women make that decision because they are not properly counseled on the procedure and other options that may be available, so the only change I would add to the current laws on the rights to abortion, is better more informative counseling. Just to go over that...I said ALOT of women, not ALL...Just don't want the point to get lost :D

Traci - posted on 09/27/2009

Well, those are just what I believe. I think kids should be brought into a stable, two parent, married household. That is what I believe to be the best situation in which to bring up children into. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but children grow up best when there is a two parent, male female household. If you are sleeping with someone, you should be prepared to marry them, in my opinion. I'm not saying this is to be legislated or anything, but it's what I think is proper. I think it's common sense. There is no absolute foolproof way to have sex and there be absolutely no risk of pregnancy....so why would you risk being attached to someone for the rest of your life(through a child) and have sex with them if it is not someone you would be prepared to marry??? Common sense 101 to me.

I don't think an unintended, unwanted pregnancy is reason enough to legitimize an abortion. It's not flippant to for me to say that I believe it to be wrong. I know with each of my pregnancies I saw that little heart beating at 6 weeks of life, so I know what an abortion entails. To me stopping that heart at 10 weeks gestation or 10 years old is equally wrong. If someone is not prepared to be a parent, then they shouldn't be having sex. That is my opinion. I never said or insinuated that an abortion is an easy decision to make, but I personally believe it is an irresponsible one. I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but that is my opinion. I'm all about personal responsibility.



On the gay marriage thing, I think it does demean traditional marriage, along with divorce which has been more and more prevalent since the dawn of the no-fault divorce laws. I don't see how you can tell a man and a woman and a woman that they cannot marry once gay marriage is allowed. It's going to happen and it's a bad road to happen upon.

Gay marriage is not the same as traditional marriage and I don't think it is equal. My male-female relationship is better. Children from my relationship are born into love and are a part of my husband and myself. So, when gay marriages are allowed, that is the state saying my marriage is the same as theirs and its not. Sorry, but it just isn't. I know many of you disagree with me, and I've got more and more reasons I believe this but it really seems silly to write the same stuff time and time again when we all know we are just not going to ever agree on this issue. I don't think its right and I'm not going to change my mind.



I don't know if that really clears anything up or not, but that's what I believe to be true. Anyone who disagrees, please spare me the usual bigot stuff...it's a given. :)