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~Jennifer - posted on 01/10/2010

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Quoting Kelly:
I believe that if schools spent LESS  time worrying if kids were using quiet time to pray, debating whether or not to say the Pledge of Alligence, or wondering if keeping score on games in gym might damage the fragile mindset of the losing team, and MORE time actually teaching the publicly accepted facts and theories, our kids just might come out of school smarter, and we might be able to lower the approx. 25% national dropout rate. 


 





I'm just going to reply to this part of the comment.....



 



Schools could probably spend dramatically less time worrying about who is praying or not pledging or scoring a game  *IF* the PARENTS would stop making such a big freaking deal about it.



I've never heard  a kid complain that they kept score or didn't, that they could or couldn't bow their heads in prayer or excercise their right to say or not say the pledge (unless forcing a child to say the pledge is done by the teacher who himself / herself believes it MUST be said) ......BUT....   I've seen and heard plenty of parents being the ones that make the stink about what they don't agree with and force the schools to pay more attention to those details.....and none of those details have squat to do with education.



If parents could just learn to keep schools for education and home used for core values, and stop passing off their responsibility in teaching morality and core beliefs TO the schools, there wouldn't be  an issue.

Rosie - posted on 01/23/2010

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every generation is going to be "different" than the one before. it doesn't make them better or worse just different. some learn from the mistakes of our parents and past generations and adapt to things differently some don't. some learned that some of the things our parents went through we don't want to go through and have adapted and changed our beliefs to fit this. sometimes the adaptations go to far, sometimes they don't go far enough. will we ever have the ideal society that we all long for? no because some people change their beliefs, some don't.

i'm personally glad for all the changes that i've seen in society compared to my parents. my dad is a die hard republican and my mother is very conservative. had i grown up with my parents ideals, i'd hate black people, i'd spew hate about gays and want everything to be about me all of the time. obviously i'm not saying all republicans are like this, not even the majority of republicans, but my dad is like this. my mother on the other hand is a good church going woman, who was raised in a mennonite household, but still chooses to believe that being gay is wrong, but at least she doesn't bash them or try to push on me her beliefs, or even state her beliefs too much unless she's asked. i'm glad that i was taught (in school.... gasp!) that people are different, people choose to do different things with their lives and just because you are black, gay or a teenage mother doesn't mean you are any worse than me. just different! i love that i was taught about abstinence, and contraception at the same time. i love that i had a child when i was 21 and single because it made me who i am today. now don't get me wrong, i love my dad, and i am a "daddy's girl" still at 31, but his ideas and beliefs i don't subscribe to and i was privledged to have other information out there other than my parent's beliefs. some people don't have this info in their schools and that really bugs me, because without this info. their parents can push their ideas and beliefs on them at will and turn them into little mindless versions of themselves. now i'm not talking elementary school, but middle and high school, when kids are trying to define themselves. i agree my 5 year old doesn't care if my neighbor is black, he hasn't even asked why his skin is a different color than ours yet, all he knows is that anthony plays with him football in his yard, and anthony is all around a cool guy. heck my 9 year old hasn't even asked about the color of his skin yet-and maybe that's a sign of our society evolving, changing and adapting to mistakes of previous generations.

i think that glen beck is an idiot, and needs to tone down the drama. it's because of people like him and others like him-in my opinion- that keep some changes from happening for the better.

Jenny - posted on 01/12/2010

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Discussing family types has nothing to do with sex. I remember discussing the traditional mother/father family, the extended family, step parents, adopted families etc. in school. When speaking about adopted kids we never spoke about reproduction. It's excatly the same thing except listing that some families have two moms or two dads or mom that used to be a dad etc. It needs to be a big deal becasue children of LGBT parents are in the school system and it's a good thing for tolerance sake that children are aware of different family structures since they all come from such varied backgrounds and need to find their way in the world. Kids don't see it as shoving anything at them. They take it at face value and move on. It's the parents that get the hang ups because they they start picturing gay sex but it really doesn't have to be that way.

JL - posted on 01/07/2010

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I have many times sat down and watched full episodes of Glen Beck, Hannity, and OReilly and I find their twisting of American history, use of blatanly edited footage and speeches, misinformation, and fear mongering entertaining... in a wow those idiots are hilarious are they for real kind of way...AND the sad fact is that people believe the crap they spew. I don't watch the Liberal Talking heads either as a source of information. I do not take them seriously and I think all the screaming is annoying and when people take them completely serious as a source of info I tell them to actually go do some outside research.I find them entertaining the LIberal talking heads as a source for laughing but I GET THAT they are not someone I should listen to or follow for news or guidance about the affairs of the word. I realize that all of them on BOTH SIDES are full of crap, not real journalist, out to make money and sell their books.



Jon Stewart is a satirist who takes the obvious and does not distort it but point out the ironic stupidity that it is. BTW Jon Stewart also points the same thing out with Liberal talking heads.





I will say that most of the Liberal people I know rarely watch the LIberal talking heads which is probably why they have such low ratings. We just don't like all the screaming, divisional verbage, and we do not view them as a reliable source for news information. Most Liberals listen to NPR, watch BBC America and read credited new sources online. I find it interesting though that so many Conservatives I know and those that I have spoken to have told me that they do on a consistent basis watch and listen to the conservative talking heads and that they do beleive in what they say as being accurate and view them as news sources.....which is probably why they have such high ratings. Personally that saddens me and it does not make me feel like there is any hope that conservatives and liberals can work together.



As for the pot calling the kettle black...I am over all the pots and kettles on both sides they are all black and i would like to bang them all with a giant meat tenderizer. I am just tired of it all. Tired and sick of the undertone of its them.....get them they are ruining this country with their ideals blah blah blah blah.



Those times were not simplistic they just did not have the technology and the media Blitz to announce and make Americans aware of all the serial killers, rapists, child abucters, and murderers that were out there. Statistically and I have studied this I have the data in my home right now because I used if for my graduate thesis...the Postwar era especially the 1950s had a surge in juvenile delinquency and we are not talking just about theft, drugs, sex, and runaways..I am talking murder,gangs, violence, rape, drug rings. Things were not any safer as people percieve them to be people were just less aware of the fearful things and socially the ideal was that people put up a front of perfection and they did not talk about those things in public. So if people want to get irritated and wish for a turn to the simpler times they should not blame Obama or Liberals but they should blame the mass media and the advent of technology for making us more aware and therefore making reality far more complicated since we can no longer hide from it.

Kelley - posted on 01/13/2010

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While I was getting my CDA (child develoment associate) ceritification, one of the materials I had to produce was, sex education (for 4yr olds), and traditional families, and alternative families (grand parents, singles, gay familys, etc.). personaly I found this to be a bit over the top, because children really except you for who you are and more importantly how you treat them. Really if schools would stick with fundamentals in education heavily through the 3rd. grade our children would be set up for life to be 'true learners' (litterally somewhere around 8yrs of age the brain goes through another change in it's learning process...after this children's imagination/creative nature beccomes less dominate and resoning the information begins to take precidence)



But just this past year there was a lesbian couple that moved in across the street. I already realized this was their family structure and their daughter (10yrs old) was over playing and the girls said (in introduction) this is ***** and she and her moms are our new neighbors. My daughter being younger than my son was like "ok" and it was no big deal on the other hand my son know what the variations in these realtionships are and let's just say that was an intersting conversation, lots of different looks on his face and the wheels just a turning, but disrecpt of any kind is just not tolerated.

(again you can see where for the younger childs brain it was 'hmmm TWO moms', and for my older child it was 'hmmm two? moms :0



I must say also on the politics and news and so on, I've found that I actually prefer BBC or World News on PBS. It just takes the scope, and affect of our own country and others' to a level that really can tie into his own history knowledge.... our history background has been the begining of civilizations through world war II and it repeats, and layers in detail every three years. so this is just another tool to strengthen those references he already has.

Unfortunately I find our our U.S. news so full of entertainment or shock value that when it's over I've learned how much Paris Hiltons hair dresser charged! useless!!!



Unfortunately I think our schools are too concerned with socialzation too young. They'll reason things out in there time, just give them the skills to do it well.

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Kelly - posted on 01/12/2010

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I agree, and this is basically my point. The only thing that makes being gay "different" is who they have sex with. So I guess, if I am reading your question correctly, I am referring to actual sex not gender. How else would you explain it? Young kids know there is a difference between boys and girls. Do they need to know the expanded mechanics on those differences in kindergarten? I don't think so. Of course at some point kids need a standard class on reproduction and reproductive organs. Maybe that is a time to touch on the fact that some humans and other species have same gender relations. Once they are mature enough to understand the way sex organs work, they are mature enough to be exposed to differences between straight and gay sex. So why is it necessary to make a big deal out of that and start shoving it at kids so early? I don't think its necessary to make a big deal about little Jane having two mommies. In today's world of blended families, lots of kids have two mommies and two daddies. So how are you going to differentiate between that and a lesbian or gay couple in the mind of a 6 yr old if you don't touch on sexual relations? Is it really that wrong to want kids to just stay kids for a while and not have to deal with the weight of the world and all its issues?

Jenny - posted on 01/12/2010

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Can I ask you honestly, is it because you are trying to avoid a conversation on gay sex? Because being gay has as much to do with sex as being straight does. I'm just not sure when you use the word sex if you are referring to gender or doin it.

Kelly - posted on 01/12/2010

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We will just have to permanently dissagree on this one. I do believe that "being gay" is NOT a choice. I know people are wired differently. I will make sure that my kids know they will always be able to talk to me about anything. But I sincerely feel that they do not need sexual preference pointed out to them. My daughter knows and loves her aunt (lesbian) and her "Uncles" (Hubby's step-brother and his partner) without having to be told that they are different. I feel that it is up to me and them to explain their relationships if and when the subject ever comes up. I don't need her kindergarten or elementary school teacher telling her about sex. I mean come on, the ONLY thing that makes them different is who they sleep with. And I do think its better to stick to generalities in school. Everyone is somehow different. That's what makes us individuals. There is no need to explain that someone is different ONLY because they are black, mexican, gay, lesbian, jewish, whatever. In my opinion, that just helps to plant the seeds of racism, sexism, and hate.

Jenny - posted on 01/12/2010

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I seem to recall learning about different types of families back in Elementary school. That was way before the "gay agenda" too.

Sara - posted on 01/12/2010

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And I want to add that I think teaching about it is how you teach tolerance about it. My daughter has an Elmo's World about families, and it shows lesbian couples, gay couples, interracial couples...I have zero problem with that. I think that by showing children it exists is helping to create tolerance.

ME - posted on 01/11/2010

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I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching about specifics in school...it makes far more sense than teaching about generalities, imo! For example, gay and lesbian youth are 2-3 times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people...perhaps teaching tolerance would have a positive effect on this sad statistic...teaching tolerance is, after all, nothing like teaching that having sex is the smartest or best option...

Kelly - posted on 01/11/2010

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Amie, I applaud you for being such an involved parent. I have a feeling most of the moms here are involved just like you. The sad reality is that not all parents in the world are like you, me, and others here. I agree that there are things we could learn from Canada and other countries, no one ever does anything perfectly on their own. I do disagree that people in large masses are just thrown out to flounder. There are a ton of federal and state programs available to people, and one thing that liberals are always pushing for is more social programs. I happen to believe that some social programs allow people to flounder and live generation after generation in poverty.

Joy, I also think its great that you expose your 6 yr old to such a diverse political spectrum and are teaching her how to understand the process. Like I said earlier, my 3 yr old is working on letters and numbers right now...... I plan to expose her in a couple years to what happens in our country, and the basic process of our system.

As far as the homosexuality issue, I disagree. It has been shown that they absolutely are teaching about specifically gay, lesbian and bi-sexual relationships. Why can they not just teach tolerance and mutual respect regardless of color, sex, religion, whatever. It is not necessary to specifically teach about each "difference" that kids may see. In my small graduating class of about 125, we were all pretty close having gone to school together from kindergarten through graduation. There were at least 3 "obvious" lesbians, and about 5 guys that were gay, most of which were my close friends. We were in girl scouts together, played soccer together, and some of the boys were included in sleepovers. None of us ever really discussed our individual sexual preferences, we were just friends. Maybe today it is not like that, and that makes me sad. Kids are actually the most accepting, least judgemental people. Why are adults insisting on exposing them to adult issues? High School is different, but again, the argument is should sex in any form be taught in school?

I understand that all of the funding doesn't actually make it to the schools it is meant for. So why do we continue to increase the money knowing this, without changing the way we hold states or local governments responsible? Obviously the nicer communities will have better schools. They are generally parents that work, are involved in their kids lives, and care. When you are in poverty, in Sec 8 housing or on welfare, you tend to not care as much, and obviously those people aren't paying taxes, so no money for their schools. I don't have all the answers on how to fix this. Politicians absolutely need a pay cut. As far as big business goes, I believe if your company isn't self supporting and solvent, it goes out of business. I never agreed with the bailout crap. Bottom line, its going to get worse before it gets better no matter what. If we do nothing we will just be perpetuating the cycle. If we do an about face and make parents and communities and governments accountable, in the short term there will be a lot of suffering, but in the long term I believe things would improve. We have to change that "I'm entitled" attitude. Welfare was originally intended to be temporary. Now it seems to be a permanent thing, and the more kids you pop out the more money you get. Cut the welfare and people will be forced to change. They will either die or end up in prison (on one extreme) or be pushed to the point where they have to go and work for themselves. Look outside the box, use programs that are available to help them learn a trade, get a GED or whatever, and eventually they will better themselves which will help instill good values in their children. I actually don't have a problem with some of my tax dollars going to social programs. I understand that especially now with unemployment at 10% and climbing, that people need help. But that help becomes a crutch if we don't hold those using it to some sort of accountability.

Democrats and Republicans alike are both guilty of allowing the current system to exist unchecked. There needs to be a massive overhaul to make a change. Instead of just accepting things the way they are and pushing the blame around to federal government, state government, local government, parents, etc. everyone needs to be held accountable. You can't get anywhere in life without somewhat of an education, so that really should be a high priority.

JL - posted on 01/11/2010

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I just have to add that I do talk to my 6 year old about how the government works and about the election process. My daughter comes with me when I vote and I tell her what I am voting on and who is running. She was with me when I voted during the last elections and she was with me when I canvassed and campaigned.

My 6 year old can identify Hillary Clinton, McCain, Palin, Obama, Biden, and Nader. She watched the debates with me and asked questions which I explained to her at her level of understanding. My kid knew who I was voting for and she asked me why and I explained to her why, but I did not force some idolized idea of Obama on her. I even took her to the library and she checked out a childrens book on Obama and one on McCain.

SO yeah, I am one of those people who sat down and talked to my 5/6 year old about who the candidates and like I said my daughter can correctly point them out when she sees their pictures on tv, in magazines, on book covers, and ect. She also knows what political party they belong to and she knows what political party mommy and daddy mainly vote for her because she asked and we told her.

As far as the homosexual subject area goes.. I don't feel that it is about teaching homosexuality to kids it is about teaching citizenship and acceptance, because as much as someone maybe personally against homosexuality when there kids are in public school they will be going to school with kids that are gay or who have gay parents and the last thing the schools need to deal with is homophobic verbage, hateful rhetoric and violence that may ensue because unfortunately there are parents teaching their kids to not respect those they disagree with but rather to fear and hate them. I personally am teaching my kid to respect,not judge, and accept everyone for who they are.

The issues with the schools for one.....the states. As an Army brat who moved around and went to a crap load of schools I found it utterly ridiculous how states vary so significantly when it comes to requirements. I do think the Federal government should step in a create one broad requirement system for graduation that all states must adhere to and the requirements should be raised so that most states have to reach the standards of the states with the higher education levels.

I would go to one state and they would require 4 years of math, another 3 years and some 2 years..now who is going to have students with higher SAT and ACT scores who is going to have students getting into more colleges having more scholarships opprotunities. It is ridiculous how the states vary educationally and then it is even more ridiculous when you break it down by counties, cities and areas. When property taxes are paying for schools of course the nicer nieghborhoods have plenty of computers, books, and well paid well educated teachers. I did the Teach for America Program which sends educators who sign up to teach in inner city and rural schools that do not have proper funding or assistance and lower educated students. I taught at schools with classrooms made up of 33 kids with only 25 desks available and 20 books that were 5 years old. We had to pay for and bring in everything we needed to teach and of course the pay was crappy. We had to basically make an additional appendix for the books so we could add all the updated information for the students. Which I had to pay for the paper and for the copies. It is absurd how some of our children are thrown into substandard educational systems. Few of them get into college and most continue the cycle of poverty they were born into. The graduation exams vary from state to state. Many states in the South even when the economy is good nationally they still do not have enough funding for their school systems. Last year the state of Alabama actually proposed that the standards be significantly lowered since they were running out of state funds for education. Instead of taking the money from supporting big businesses and from other areas that did not need it they actually wanted to lower educational standards that are already in comparison to other states and in comparison to other countries too low.

Many states don't even require basic civic classes and government for graduation. In many many ways our states have been dropping the ball for centuries and they just continue to do so and unless the people in the states get their butts up and demand better or our federal government steps in a demands better then the states will continue to let students slide through the classroom. Most states I have lived in the first financial cuts always occur in the educational budget. Screw that start cutting the pay of the politicans and the financial support that goes to helping out big businesses who need to cut the pay of their CEO's if they need the additional funding .And yes the Federal government does spend a great deal of money on education but the states do not filter all the money down to the counties and then the counties do not filter all the funds to the schools. Many studies have found that many states filter the funding to other projects and other things that have nothing to do with education. The state of OKlahoma when I lived there spent a fourth of the education funds on education the rest went to bail out oil families, to provide raises for politicians, and the building of prisons. The state of Oklahoma at one point was moving toward having more prisons on average then schools in certain areas. The prisons got more funding and had better upkeep.

~Jennifer - posted on 01/11/2010

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Quoting Kelly:



Quoting Jenn:




Quoting Kelly:
I believe that if schools spent LESS  time worrying if kids were using quiet time to pray, debating whether or not to say the Pledge of Alligence, or wondering if keeping score on games in gym might damage the fragile mindset of the losing team, and MORE time actually teaching the publicly accepted facts and theories, our kids just might come out of school smarter, and we might be able to lower the approx. 25% national dropout rate. 




 












I'm just going to reply to this part of the comment.....








 








Schools could probably spend dramatically less time worrying about who is praying or not pledging or scoring a game  *IF* the PARENTS would stop making such a big freaking deal about it.








I've never heard  a kid complain that they kept score or didn't, that they could or couldn't bow their heads in prayer or excercise their right to say or not say the pledge (unless forcing a child to say the pledge is done by the teacher who himself / herself believes it MUST be said) ......BUT....   I've seen and heard plenty of parents being the ones that make the stink about what they don't agree with and force the schools to pay more attention to those details.....and none of those details have squat to do with education.








If parents could just learn to keep schools for education and home used for core values, and stop passing off their responsibility in teaching morality and core beliefs TO the schools, there wouldn't be  an issue.









Jenn, you are going back to the point of my original debate with Joy over the moral decline (and a parents role in that decline) in this country.  I agree, parents complain about a lot of stupid things, and a lot of things that are not necessarily stupid.  I mentioned these 3 because these are the topics that have been taken up in court recently that popped into my head.  However, I find it funny that out of my whole post, you chose this to comment on.  Is that because you agree with the rest of what I said, or because you didn't feel like debating the real issues?






 






 





Actually, I answered only that  because it seemed to be the only part of your reply that was a generalization, and not directed specifically at Mary.  



If you'd like, I'll answer more in-depth later on today.   I think we all know that I'm way too long winded to punch out a simplistic reply over coffee, and I have a bunch of appointments today.



=)



I shall return.



 

Amie - posted on 01/11/2010

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I understand where you are coming from Kelly. The US is vastly different from Canada. But I do firmly believe some lessons could be learned from Canada.



Our parents and teachers work together to further our coming generations. It is not an onus put on any one person. I am fully vested in my childrens upbringing. I make sure to keep in close contact with their school. I know their teachers, principal, vice principal, secretary and support workers by name. Just as they know me. While I am the main care giver and responsible for how they turn out. Our schools and teachers are a valuable tool that I use and reach out to as I need too. They reach out to me as well when they think their might be an issue. It's through a relationship that all of us work together to ensure bright futures.





It sounds like an idyllic view but it's not. It's MY reality because I make it so. Canada does have it's own share of issues. From our government on down. I make the best of what I am given and reach out when I need too. I know that help is there because it's been put in place for a long time now. I can not imagine living in a country where people are left to flounder on the scale that I see in the states. That sickens me. I never considered myself a true patriot for my country until I got an up close look into some Americans lives. I will never give up what Canada has become, I will fight for our way of life until the end. The conservatives that are running my province now I would like to kick in the arse and they are no where near as bad as some of the conservatives that are in the states.



As for sex education in schools. It is something that should remain in the public sector. There are too many parents (obviously otherwise the school boards would have switched their sex ed plans long ago) that would rather teach abstinence only than actually give their children a real sex education.

Kelly - posted on 01/10/2010

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I am sure that this subject is very personal to you Amie, and I really do appreciate you sharing your personal situation as basis for your beliefs. I am not saying that students that get pregnant should be excluded from getting help if that help is offered to all students anyway. I just don't think in our country, that tax dollars should be spent on providing those services ONLY for pregnant teens. As far as day cares are concerned, when I was working after my first baby was born, I know that the day cares accepted state run programs that helped to decrease the cost for those in need. That went for the larger day care "chain" that was here in TX, and the home day care I used for a short time in WY. I am sure teen mothers would qualify for most state programs. Birth control is also available to kids, most of the time without parental consent, (maybe not to kids under 13 or 14) at Planned Parenthood. I grew up in a small mountain town of about 5000 people and there was a PP office there. Of course teen pregnancy is not an ideal situation, and they do need support. I just don't think it falls on the taxpayers to directly provide that support. Indirectly we pay anyway for the state funded programs, but at least there are some additional requirements to qualify. You are absolutely right about US teen rates, and part of the problem is abstinence only teaching. Another problem is that our culture has become more sexual, and it has become widely accepted to have children out of wedlock. This issue just isn't cut and dry. As Jenn was just saying, it is the schools place to teach education, and the parents responsibility to teach morals and core beliefs. I am in no way naive, I know that kids will have sex. But is public school the correct forum to teach about having sex? In Canada that might work, I just am not sure it would work in the U.S.

Amie - posted on 01/10/2010

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When Clinton was in office I was a teen so did not pay attention as much then as I do now. I stayed abreast on current events but that was because I had too. It was part of our homework each day.

I didn't say it was a strong argument. It was meant to show what they could have been thinking. As for Bud and Trojans, that's pretty self explanatory on why it's not accepted. My children are not allowed to watch much t.v. in any case and the ones they do watch are family (our oldest) and playhouse disney for the middle two. Our baby does not as of yet watch t.v. So if they had run during the campaign season I wouldn't have seen them even then. As for why a childrens network would actually agree to running them... that's another question all together. That should be looked at too if you want to be fair about it.

It IS because we have UHC that I was able to get a lamaze coach through school. They are paid through the system and I had a valid card for my province so it was provided for me. It was also scheduled during what would have been my free period. So I wasn't losing out on anything. As for tutors, they are provided for all students that need them. Regardless of the why. Is it really fair to exclude students that need them just because they are pregnant? Same with day cares. They are meant to help. Teen pregnancy is an issue that should not have to be thrust into the dark with them left to flounder. If it had not been for those support systems I may very well have ended up a drop out with no future. I've seen it happen even with those support systems in our public sectors just because they didn't have the support at home as well. It's not an ideal situation, no mom wants to hear that their teenager is pregnant. It is still better to continue to help them so they can be self sufficient and provide the best future for themselves and their child than it is to turn them out and hope they can figure it out. It's no different than our elementary schools here that offer day care services to parents. They still get paid but it is at a significantly reduced rate so the parents can get a break and still be able to work and afford the other bills. Not only that but America needs to start steering away from this abstinence only program that's been pushed for how many years now? It's not working, it will never work. The US has almost double the percentages of teen births per year than any other industrialized society out there, including Canada. It has nothing to do with unwanted pregnancies either, demographics or abortions. In every of those cases, white teens get pregnant more also, unwanted pregnancies are still almost double and abortions also happen almost double what they do in any other country. Our health care system also sets up our teens to help combat this issue. Birth control is offered at low to no cost to most teens, depending on which province they reside in. Maybe the Canadian way is what the states should take to teach the coming generations. Information and support. Our teen pregnancies are on the decline the states is not.

Kelly - posted on 01/10/2010

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Quoting Jenn:



Quoting Kelly:
I believe that if schools spent LESS  time worrying if kids were using quiet time to pray, debating whether or not to say the Pledge of Alligence, or wondering if keeping score on games in gym might damage the fragile mindset of the losing team, and MORE time actually teaching the publicly accepted facts and theories, our kids just might come out of school smarter, and we might be able to lower the approx. 25% national dropout rate. 



 









I'm just going to reply to this part of the comment.....






 






Schools could probably spend dramatically less time worrying about who is praying or not pledging or scoring a game  *IF* the PARENTS would stop making such a big freaking deal about it.






I've never heard  a kid complain that they kept score or didn't, that they could or couldn't bow their heads in prayer or excercise their right to say or not say the pledge (unless forcing a child to say the pledge is done by the teacher who himself / herself believes it MUST be said) ......BUT....   I've seen and heard plenty of parents being the ones that make the stink about what they don't agree with and force the schools to pay more attention to those details.....and none of those details have squat to do with education.






If parents could just learn to keep schools for education and home used for core values, and stop passing off their responsibility in teaching morality and core beliefs TO the schools, there wouldn't be  an issue.





Jenn, you are going back to the point of my original debate with Joy over the moral decline (and a parents role in that decline) in this country.  I agree, parents complain about a lot of stupid things, and a lot of things that are not necessarily stupid.  I mentioned these 3 because these are the topics that have been taken up in court recently that popped into my head.  However, I find it funny that out of my whole post, you chose this to comment on.  Is that because you agree with the rest of what I said, or because you didn't feel like debating the real issues?



 



 Your last comment,



If parents could just learn to keep schools for education and home used for core values, and stop passing off their responsibility in teaching morality and core beliefs TO the schools, there wouldn't be  an issue.



I think this is very well said.  I would add that parents AND educators need to learn to keep schools for education and the home for teaching morality and core beliefs.  For instance, the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Teachers Network sponsors programs aimed to educate kids on alternative sexual lifestyles, and has helped influence school boards into adopting lesson plans about homosexual lifestyles.  Don't get me wrong, I have many friends, past co-workers, and some family members that are gay and I am in no way a gay basher.  However I don't think public school is the place to be teaching sexual orientation.  Some would say its a moral issue, but regardless, it has nothing to do with education. 

Kelly - posted on 01/10/2010

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Amie, I must have missed the threads you started on those very intelligent middle school kids. I also apparently missed all of the intelligent kids who came out and sang when Clinton was trying to pass health care reform. I would think that CNN would have loved to have those kids on as well.......... Do I think those kids were being "indoctrinated"? Not necessarily. I do think however they were being used by an obviously liberal base that is hell bent on getting this health care reform passed, no matter how damaging it will be.



Your arguement for campaigning on kids channels in my opinion is a weak one. If your theory is correct, and its the parents being targeted because kids don't watch commercials, then why don't we see ads for Budweiser or Trojan on Nick Jr.? Granted, this is an extreme example, but hopefully you will understand my point. I have absolutely no problem with my children being exposed to other views. My sister (whom I love dearly) happens to be one of the biggest (self described) tree hugging, left-wing liberals I know. I very much enjoy our debates when they come up. If my girls grow up and think differently than I or my husband do, of course we will support them. I just hope they will always be able to back up their beliefs and choices. That goes for whether they agree with me or not. There is nothing more annoying than someone saying they believe something just because their parents believe it. I plan to expose my kids early to the democratic process. I want them to be intelligent and informed. That being said, I don't think that my 3 year old needs to be inundated with campaign ads in between Dora the Explorer and Wow Wow Wubbzy. She didn't know what his platform was, but she recognized Obama on TV by face, and radio by voice after a couple weeks of him on Nick. It kind of reminds me of Joe the Camel and other subtle brainwashing techniques used in television and print ads. I think kids are a lot more aware than we as adults sometimes realize. Thats great if you don't see a problem with it, but how informed were kids actually? They only got one side since McCain wasn't stooping to advertising on Nick. I bet if your kids, my kid, and any other kids that watched Sat. morning cartoons during the campaign season were polled, close to all would have picked out Obama by name, picture or voice recognition, but I bet they couldn't do the same for McCain or Nader. (threw him in to be fair) I just don't think many people sit down with 3, 4, 5, 6 yr olds and talk to them about the candidates. Right now, I am focusing on my 3 yr old being able to recognize and write numbers and letters, maybe I am behind the curve.



I am not going to really touch on the pregnancy thing, but I will say this. I am very glad that your parents supported you. I am sure that was a hard time for you emotionally, and it would have been horrible if they hadn't supported you. I believe that issues such as yours need to be dealt with at home. Canada may view things a little differently since you already have public healthcare or socialized medicine or whatever. In the U.S., I don't think our public school tax dollars need to be going to lamaze coaches, tutors, day cares, etc. for pregnant kids. You may think its cold, but in my opinion, they have 3 options: test out, repeat a grade if necessary, or get a GED. Having kids at any age can be difficult as we all know. Having kids young is even more difficult, and providing a way to accommodate it sends the wrong message.

Kelly - posted on 01/10/2010

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Quoting Mary:

Interesting convo ladies...I wish I had seen it sooner. Joy has (as usual) said it all very well...but I just want to add that, as an educator (at both the high school and college levels) I find the suggestion that schools are too "liberal" to be uninformed and laughable at best, and insulting and divissive at worst. There is no liberal education system. There is only a public education system and a private education system (having been a part of both systems during my life, I have a clear understanding of the difference between them). If you don't understand or recognize as fact what is being taught in our public schools, then you have the right to home school or put your children in private schools that teach your beliefs rather than publicly accepted facts/theories. I am disturbed and disheartened by the attack on our nations intellectuals and educators. As somone with multiple advanced degrees from several different universities across the country, I can assure you that I have NEVER been forced to think any certain way by any college professor; in fact, as a philosopher, I have been given lower scores if my arguments lack origninality! I have never graded my own students on their beliefs instead of their abilities either, but I hear conservatives suggesting that this happens on a regular basis. Perhaps spending some time in college would clear this up for the majority who seem so frightened of education!


Mary, you can be insulted or laugh all you want.  My opinion is that the public education system, in many areas, has been "libralized".  This is not because I don't understand or recognize as fact what is being taught.  When my children become school age, believe me I will be thinking long and hard about where they will be going to school.  Since my husband's job causes us to travel, a lot of that will depend on where we live.  From reading your posts in the past, I think its pretty safe to say that you would be classified as a liberal woman far easier than a conservative one.  Perhaps because you think that way you have become numb to your environment. 



I am not sure what part of my posts have you thinking that my beliefs are much different than the majority of the country.  Were I in N.C. or N.J. (where two of the Obama praising videos originated) I would be pissed, as many parents were.  Not because they were singing about Obama, but because I don't think they should be singing the praises of anyone in school, president or otherwise.  That to me is time that could have been spent teaching kids how to read and calculate.  Despite the fact that we keep sinking tax dollars into public education, the US continues to perform at or near the bottom when rated with other countries.  Even if we just compare (in the US only)  today's scores with the scores from 30 years ago, achievement in most subjects has been either stagnant, or fallen.  Why is that?  Maybe as an educator you can enlighten me.  As someone with only 3 years of college, I may be in your eyes "under-educated", but here is my thought process:  I believe that if schools spent LESS  time worrying if kids were using quiet time to pray, debating whether or not to say the Pledge of Alligence, or wondering if keeping score on games in gym might damage the fragile mindset of the losing team, and MORE time actually teaching the publicly accepted facts and theories, our kids just might come out of school smarter, and we might be able to lower the approx. 25% national dropout rate. 



As far as attacking our nations so called "intellectuals" and educators: As long as colleges in particular keep hiring and giving tenure to people like Ward Churchill, William Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn and Joseph Massad (just a few from universities all across the country)  I will continue to lose faith in our education system.  The mere fact that people like that have access to influence the minds of so many of our countries children doesn't just disturb or dishearten me.  It scares the crap out of me.            

Amie - posted on 01/10/2010

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And then there was the school academy in Atlanta that was singing about healthcare reform on CNN.....



I wouldn't expect that schools on any military base would be doing this. God help us the day that happens, no matter who is in office. I fully agree with you that it is not the man but the office that deserves respect. ( At least until he humiliates the office a la Clinton.) I come from a military background myself, going back to the Revolutionary war on both my mother's and father's side. My husband's family is the same, and he personally got out of the Army in '94. I plan to teach my kids the same beliefs you do in that respect. He was elected our Commander in Chief. I may not like it, but wishing him failure is wishing our country failure. On a sidenote, I did find it alarming that on Nick Jr. during the election, they had a bunch of Obama commercials and ads. That was a little disturbing to me. Can't we leave the campaining to the adult channels?



I do think society is to blame for the moral decline however. The basics are that you, me, our parents, friends, etc make up our society. I agree wholeheartedly that parents are to blame for their children's individual situation. In my personal case, I fear because we are in TX and my stepdaughter is in NY. We have no control over her day to day decisions and choices, and without bashing her mother, lets just say she is an "absent" parent a lot of the time, and not just because she works. However, Society as a whole has become numb to the everyday horrors. Oh, your 8th grader is prego? no big deal. What, your elementary age kid is smoking weed? Its a natural herb, no harm no foul....... Of course there are plenty of people that do still care, but many don't.



Bottom line for me, I will raise my kids to be well rounded, intelligent individuals. I will teach them about sex, drugs, and having self pride. That is one thing I think is lacking in today's youth. Self pride, and respect. Sounds like even though we don't see things the same politically, you will be doing the same. Maybe *gasp* there is hope???? lol




Ok Kelly I just wanted to first point out. That video on CNN made the rounds. Here and on RCM when it first happened. I remember it well because with just my word choice more than a few jumped on the band wagon. Everyone thought the kids were being "indoctrinated" to support Obama's wishes of a public option. They weren't. They were middle school kids. Very smart middle school children. They knew exactly what they were talking about. They did not want a public option, they just want reform for the health industry in the states. No public option but fixing the problems that currently exist. Only one (if I remember right) actually went to find the pre-interview to find out the entire truth before posting and did not just go off what was sung in the video I had posted.



I understand why some think campaigning should be left to the adult channels. I also understand that it is not entirely the children they are going for. Most children when watching t.v. have their parents nearby. Near enough that when the commercials come on they hear them. Most kids don't pay attention to commercials. At least mine don't. It is a sticky situation though. There will always be people who are firmly opposed to this idea. Some do not want their children open to anything other than what they choose for their children. It does not bother me because my children will always have our support in whatever they choose. It may make for some interesting debates when their older if they align with a different party than my husband and myself. LOL! I personally don't have a problem with it because I don't mind having informed children, provided they actually watch it (which I highly doubt they will at their ages). Our oldest is starting to form a real interest in it. Our school system is set up so they already know a lot about how politics work but do not go in depth of each of the parties in Canada and all their policies and beliefs.



I don't know about the elementary, middle school, etc. issues. We have teen pregnancy here as well. It's not taken with that much of a flippant attitude. I was a teenage mom. My grade 12 year I ended up pregnant. I still graduated. I was also not just flipped off though. My school got me a lamaze coach, a tutor for when I did have to miss school, my parents were a great support as well. After the intial shock and horror they stood behind me and helped me finish my schooling and post secondary. Not a single one of those people involved shot roses up my butt either. I knew exactly what I was walking into and how hard it would be. I've turned out well. Drugs are a serious issue in our schools too. Anyone caught with them is an automatic suspension with a hearing before the principal and other school officials. Depending on what happens at that hearing things can either get better or get a whole lot worse. My sister has friends that have been booted from school because of drugs. Again though it might be because I'm in Canada. These issues are taken seriously, support is given where it's needed and wanted. Problems that can not be rectified and are only causing further harm to the school populace at large are removed. They are not just left to flounder either, the ones booted are given options to take. It is up to them to do it though. Our laws state that all children must stay in school until at least 16, except Ontario and New Brunswick where the mandatory age is 18.



One last thing. Every parents goal is to raise happy, well rounded, individuals who can walk into the world with their heads high ready to conquer their dreams. Regardless of our political stances I think most of us, as parents, can relate on the same level. =)

ME - posted on 01/10/2010

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Interesting convo ladies...I wish I had seen it sooner. Joy has (as usual) said it all very well...but I just want to add that, as an educator (at both the high school and college levels) I find the suggestion that schools are too "liberal" to be uninformed and laughable at best, and insulting and divissive at worst. There is no liberal education system. There is only a public education system and a private education system (having been a part of both systems during my life, I have a clear understanding of the difference between them). If you don't understand or recognize as fact what is being taught in our public schools, then you have the right to home school or put your children in private schools that teach your beliefs rather than publicly accepted facts/theories. I am disturbed and disheartened by the attack on our nations intellectuals and educators. As somone with multiple advanced degrees from several different universities across the country, I can assure you that I have NEVER been forced to think any certain way by any college professor; in fact, as a philosopher, I have been given lower scores if my arguments lack origninality! I have never graded my own students on their beliefs instead of their abilities either, but I hear conservatives suggesting that this happens on a regular basis. Perhaps spending some time in college would clear this up for the majority who seem so frightened of education!

Kelly - posted on 01/08/2010

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Yes, I too get kinda peeved at the so called "Christians" passing so much judgement here....... I guess if we all could just stop with the not-so-subtle insults, we could maybe get further in our discussions on this forum. I love that there is a debating community, because I love to discuss issues with people that don't necessarily think the way I do. What fun is it all the time to just pat each other on the back and agree?



As far as schools teaching one side, here are a couple links:











And then there was the school academy in Atlanta that was singing about healthcare reform on CNN.....



I wouldn't expect that schools on any military base would be doing this. God help us the day that happens, no matter who is in office. I fully agree with you that it is not the man but the office that deserves respect. ( At least until he humiliates the office a la Clinton.) I come from a military background myself, going back to the Revolutionary war on both my mother's and father's side. My husband's family is the same, and he personally got out of the Army in '94. I plan to teach my kids the same beliefs you do in that respect. He was elected our Commander in Chief. I may not like it, but wishing him failure is wishing our country failure. On a sidenote, I did find it alarming that on Nick Jr. during the election, they had a bunch of Obama commercials and ads. That was a little disturbing to me. Can't we leave the campaining to the adult channels?



I do think society is to blame for the moral decline however. The basics are that you, me, our parents, friends, etc make up our society. I agree wholeheartedly that parents are to blame for their children's individual situation. In my personal case, I fear because we are in TX and my stepdaughter is in NY. We have no control over her day to day decisions and choices, and without bashing her mother, lets just say she is an "absent" parent a lot of the time, and not just because she works. However, Society as a whole has become numb to the everyday horrors. Oh, your 8th grader is prego? no big deal. What, your elementary age kid is smoking weed? Its a natural herb, no harm no foul....... Of course there are plenty of people that do still care, but many don't.



Bottom line for me, I will raise my kids to be well rounded, intelligent individuals. I will teach them about sex, drugs, and having self pride. That is one thing I think is lacking in today's youth. Self pride, and respect. Sounds like even though we don't see things the same politically, you will be doing the same. Maybe *gasp* there is hope???? lol

JL - posted on 01/08/2010

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Thanks for the response Kelly. It is funny because I don't think Reagan ended the Cold War. I believe it was the masses of people in Russia....the working class rose in large groups and forcibly toppled the regime and demanded something better. They put an end to the Cold War. They stood outside the Kremlin in masses and were physically beaten but they did not stop. Reagan came into office right when the USSR was at the end of having social unrest and massive protests. I am somene who does not at all believe in the one man philosophy. I think Americans in particular have this fixation with naming one man as a Hero as a savior as the lone wolf who toppled evil, but the reality is that it is the masses that make the impact, that make the changes, that make the differences.



If the people of Russia had not wanted, demanded, and rioted for a new governmental system then Communism despite Reagan's win would have continued.The people wanted change and they made it happen. You cannot have a movement without the masses. I mean I believe that the Civil RIghts Movement was not all about Martin Luther King. I tend to irritate people with this arguement but yes he was the image and the voice and he was a great man, but without the thousands of people marching for civil rights, without the thousands of people whose names we will never recognize fighting back, without the thousands who lost their lives brutally, without the thousands of people who risked their jobs, risked their lives, their families, and spent time in jail for speaking out the Civil RIghts movement woud not have been impactful and MLK would not have been remembered as the image of the movement.



I feel like it takes more than one man to change things and personally I am not a fan of Jimmy Carter. He is someone who is not presidential material. He is far to idealstic for such a harsh realistic position. I am also not a fan of Reagan he was not a great champion for the middle class. The Obama thing about school kids idiolizing him I don't get that arguement at all. I just have never experienced that or seen it firsthand. My daughter was taught about the election process during the election by me and by her teachers but she was not taught to sing about or idiolize Obama. I personally know her teachers and I know they all voted for Obama but they never taught my daughter anything but the fact that he won and that he is OUR president.



But then again I live in a military community and the military ideal is that you respect and hold regard for the office no matter who is in office.They are our commander in chief and when our spouses are called to duty by them they answer and we support them. We may not have personally voted for the person in office or always agree with them but there is a level of respect we do give and we teach our chidren in our military schools that they are to respect the office and acknowledge who our president and commander in chief is. I may have disliked Bush but I respected his position and I hoped that he did right by the nation I did not wish for him to fall on his face or screw up.



I agree Lobbyists need to be out of DC fast but I think that would leave most politicians and their families out of work. Like my Rep, Saxby Chambliss...his son is big time powerful lobbyists for the biggest farming subsidiees organizations, he would be out of work and then Saxby may not need to serve on the farming committees anymore in order to help out the groups his son lobbys for. It is hard these days to find anyone in DC who is not tainted and lining their pockets.



I have a thick skin well right now itchy dry thick skin due to this freezing cold weather...LOL!



About the teen pregnancy thing I found...I taught middle schoolers before...that the bottom line is the parents. The kids who did get knocked up and were engaging in sexual activites I have to say were my kids who had absentee parents and I don't always been not physically being there I also mean not being their mentally. Most of the kids I had that were engaging in sex were kids whose parents did not talk about sex with them besides muttering to them Don't do it and that was it. I would have many kids ask me questions and express desires of curiosity to engage in sex. As an educator where I was working we were expressly forbidden from discussing sex with the students or engaging in personal relationships as role models. I had kids that wanted to call me for advice because they had no other adults they felt they could turn to but parents would freak out and we would be fired if we did so. THe only option we had was to refer them to school counselors and go to the principals who would set up meetings with the parents and in the end the parents ignored the facts did not talk to their kids and months later they had a knocked up teen. It was frustrating and I broke the rules many times because these kids were not getting guidance at home but they were cying out for guidance from the only other adults in their lives that would talk to them. I blame the parents..not society or politicians or the media,because it is the parents duty to speak to and guide their kids. I had parents who spoke openly to me about sex and I did not get pregnant until age 25 and it was planned.



My daughter will be guided and taught the same way I was by my parents. She will know that it is a big deal to have sex and an awesome responsiblity to have babies.



I know you get frustrated with the brainwashed by FOx defense I get frustrated with the Liberals have lesser morals defense. I know as you stated that you do not blame Liberals for moral decline but there have been conservatives who have alluded to the idea that us Liberals on here are lacking morals and such. We don't lack morals we just relate them in a different manner and feel like they are different ways to approach the morality subject.

Dana - posted on 01/08/2010

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If you look into global warming/climate change (which is closer to the actual act) it's not about the earth getting hot. It's about the polar ice caps melting which in turn changes the ocean's temperature, which changes our weather, making some area's cold actually. You should watch Al Gore's movie if only to understand the theory, it's pretty interesting.

~ Not trying to sound snotty here. ;)

Kelly - posted on 01/08/2010

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Quoting dana:

Holy crap now our school system's are labeled "liberal".....will it never end?? Is there anything else we can stick the liberal label to, what else pisses us off...



Ummmmm.... I am sure I could come up with a few for you Dana.  lol  I guess Conservatives put the "Liberal Label" on, and Liberals response to everything is "Blame Bush!" 



 



Seriously though, WTF with this global warming crap? Its 10 degrees in Texas right now...... Let me know where global warming really is so I can move there!  :-)

Kelly - posted on 01/08/2010

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Joy, thanks for your post. Sometimes it is hard to discern the way people are trying to convey their thoughts over the computer. I believe if we were face to face, this would actually be a very interesting and productive discussion. My dry humor sometimes comes across a little negative, i.e. the dividing of the country, secession comment. Of course I wasn't serious. (But I was serious that I think it would be a very interesting thesis subject.) I know that you weren't calling me names, I threw in the "hick" part, but I am getting tired of people assuming that just because I or someone else watches or listens to conservative opinionists that we are somehow non-thinking parrots. My beliefs stem from my own research and personal experiences, but I think a lot of times in these forums people are quick to throw in comments about Fox News, Hannity, Beck, etc being my (and others) only source of information.



I see your point on the moral decline of our society over the years, and I don't necessarily believe that "Liberalism" is to blame for all the ills of our society. I re-read my post, and I know I never said that it was. Confusion could be a reason, as well as a general sense of apathy. No one cares anymore. I went to HS in a small mountain town in the west, and believe me, if someone had gotten knocked up, it would have been a huge deal. My stepdaughter lives in Rochester NY and is in 7th grade. 2 8th graders were pregnant last year, and not only were they allowed to be in their team sports pics in the yearbook, (smuggling basketballs under their uniform shirts) they stayed in school, and one even kept her baby. My stepdaughter's attitude and the attitude of her friends? "It's really no big deal......" That scares the ever-loving crap out of me. Social acceptance has gone way to far.



In your original post, your comment was "Wait in the late 1970s Conservatives were saying the same crap and blaming Liberals for foreign issues and the crappy economy.." and to that I argue Hell yes!!! Jimmy Carter was horrible for our country. He left office in the midst of a foreign issue nightmare, that was solved by the mere inaguration of Reagan. Maybe Iran knew we finally had someone in office with balls? His administration began sending money to the Taliban in Afghanistan in I believe '79, and his plan for South Korea was disaster in the making. Domestically he was responsible for the Airline Deregulation Act, and apparently didn't learn from Nixon's mistakes in '73 in regards to the energy crisis. Price controls on gas and oil brought back the long lines and shortages, and the Windfall Profit Tax damaged domestic oil production and gave more power and control to OPEC. Inflation was double digits, unemployment rates were rising, and economic growth was slowing. Sound familiar? Conservatives screamed, Reagan got elected, and by the end of his presidency sure enough, the economy was growing (without inflation), unemployment rates were shrinking, and income taxes were slashed. And oh yeah, he ended that pesky cold war without firing a shot. Surely two thirds of the population (his approval rating when he left office) couldn't have been wrong.



I wish our country could come together, I really do. I for the life of me cannot think of a resolution to get people to all start reading on the same page however. (I guess if I could, maybe I would get the Nobel Peace Prize........ more of my dry humor) At the end of the day, Republicans don't have the answer, and neither do the Democrats. Until lobbyists get out of DC, and politicians can sit down and actually meet in a middle ground, nothing is going to change. And of course, if lobbyists are kicked out, the unemployment rate in Harry Reid's family will be 100% so until he is gone we have no hope........ just sayin.......



Sorry it took so long for me to respond, I read and re-read my post as I am sincerely trying to avoid coming off as Holier than Thou. The only thing that will save our country is communication, and I believe that is what you and I are doing here. So thanks for sparring, and please know that unlike some, I have a thick skin, and unless you blatently call me names, I don't really read into things you say. My sore spot is what I pointed out above..... a few people here (not necessarily you) always fall back on the "brainwashed by Fox" defense.

Kelly - posted on 01/08/2010

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Quoting Sara:






Quoting Kelly:

 I could argue that you are the brainwashed one since you apparently have spend most of your life in our liberal education system. 










This is not the first time I have heard this from a conservative.  As someone who works in higher education and has multiple degrees, this irritates me.  I will not argue the fact that most people involved in higher education are liberal, but one of the many things my education has taught me is the idea of critical literacy.  The "liberal education systerm" I have been a part of teaches you to think for yourself.  That's one of the many gifts of higher education.  To me, the whole idea of a "liberal education system" is just a way for someone to discount another person's opinons.  Besides all that it's insulting for people to insinuate that people with high levels of education are brainwashed automatons, I would strongly disagree with that.






Sorry if that comment offends you personally Sarah.  I think overall, the education system no longer teaches people to think for themselves.  I went to the Univ. of Utah what feels like a thousand years ago and I know that back then, prof. kept their personal beliefs out of the classroom.  I don't think that is the case anymore, and not just in colleges.  Would you have been ok with your kids coming home from school singing songs about George W. 8 years ago? I bet not, and I sure wouldn't have been.  Why is it for some reason ok for us to have our kids worshiping Obama?  Do you think if Conservatives take back Congress in the fall that kids will be learning about how now the country will be "saved"?  As far as I am concerned, kids need to be taught the fundamentals of our government, and how the process works.  Not what candidate to vote for and which party is better.  You as an educator may keep your personal opinions out of the classroom, and I applaud you for that.  I just think that more and more you are becoming the minority.  Educators overall are loosing grasp of two main points: 1-They are there to teach FACTS and teach them impartially.  2-Kids look up to and sometimes idolize their teachers.  I know that personally some of my teachers have left a permanent mark of who I have become as an adult, and I don't mean politically.    The classroom is not the place to further ANY political agenda, but unfortunately that is what is happening.

Dana - posted on 01/08/2010

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Holy crap now our school system's are labeled "liberal".....will it never end?? Is there anything else we can stick the liberal label to, what else pisses us off...

JL - posted on 01/08/2010

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Ok, first off I went to a univeristy in Oklahoma and I had just as many conservative professors as I had Liberal ones. My favorite Criminal justice prof was very conservative and I learned a great deal from him. I got my Masters through a Military University and it was predominately filled with retired military Republican leaning professors. The whole liberal education arguement is just another divisional stereotype. I was in no way trying to hold my education over you or whatever I was not assuming that I am smarter than you. I am so damn tired of people.... sorry this is not directed personally at you but I have to get this out......making comments about me throwing my education in their face. It is no secret that I am a professional historian so if a topic that has some historical treatment in it comes up I will impart what I know because that is what I am trained to do. I would have to be the worst damn historian out there if I did not talk about history when it was brought up. That is my passion it is what I know a great deal about. It is what I do so of course it makes complete perfect sense that I would approach subjects from that platform. I would assume someone if someone on here is a scientists and we talk about science then they would impart their professional opinion.





I don't know you at all but from your posts I would assume your are an intelligent women. I wil admit yea I got pissed off and my tone was pissy because I was reacting to the assumption you made about me not actually watching these guys and not really looking into what they are saying. And your tone came off to me as holier than thou so I reacted.



I did not call you a brainwashed hick you are the one who brought up the idea of there being any verbal insults. I did respond in my posts to things you had posted but some of it was blanketed statements generalized comments about the debate at hand. I did not reply with quote or specifically say your name because not all I was posting had to do with what you had specifically posted points of it did, but some of it had to do with the general ideas that were being brought up by the statements.





I would also argue from my historical point of view ...that the 1960 and 1970 moral decline....was full of reactions to the 1950s social ideals. People reacted and broke out because they were reacting to the overly steralized social ideals perpetuated upon Americans in the 1950s. The 1960s had high number of divorces related to the marriages made during the 1950s. People said they felt forced to get married and they were unhappy and they finally felt they could break free in the 1960s. I don't think the moral decline as anything to do with liberal ideals or such. I think the moral decline is mostly about confusion. We were so staunch with the no you should not do that in the 1950s and then we went in the total opposite direction in the 1960s and 70s with the yes you can do that. THe 1980s pushed back toward conservatism politically but socially the world was still trying to find the middle ground between the 1950s social views and the 1960s/70s views. I don't think we have yet to really find the middle ground and that is why things seem to be so off on for both extremes..conservatives and liberals.



At least I believe deep down that it is coming together that will make things better. I feel sadden that we cannot do that not because I don't think it is possible but because I think too many people want to throw their hands up and say whatever and say that it is impossible. I don't think dividing this country or having states seccede is the right thing to propose. I don't know if you are serious or joking but I find the statement sad and it just makes me even further uphold the idea that what will destroy this nation will be us dividing and fighting one another. We will destroy ourselves from within.



Once again my tone is not meant to be I am smarter than you but I will admit it is sometimes filled with the tone that I am pissed, saddened, irritated,and loosing hope in people.

Sara - posted on 01/08/2010

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Quoting Kelly:

 I could argue that you are the brainwashed one since you apparently have spend most of your life in our liberal education system. 






This is not the first time I have heard this from a conservative.  As someone who works in higher education and has multiple degrees, this irritates me.  I will not argue the fact that most people involved in higher education are liberal, but one of the many things my education has taught me is the idea of critical literacy.  The "liberal education systerm" I have been a part of teaches you to think for yourself.  That's one of the many gifts of higher education.  To me, the whole idea of a "liberal education system" is just a way for someone to discount another person's opinons.  Besides all that it's insulting for people to insinuate that people with high levels of education are brainwashed automatons, I would strongly disagree with that.

Kelly - posted on 01/07/2010

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Ok Joy, I don't believe I ever said I garner my news from any opinionist, I said I watched them on occasion. I do prefer listening to talk radio since most of the music on the radio in my area is either in spanish, or is hip hop crap and that just isn't my scene. The one time I tuned in to NPR was because I couldn't get any other stations, and all they talked about was global warming crap. I may not have a PHD and I may not be a lifelong scholar, but that doesn't automatically make me a brainwashed hick. I could argue that you are the brainwashed one since you apparently have spend most of your life in our liberal education system. I don't consider O'Reilly or Hannity a news source. They interpret the news and form their own opinions. Basically what they do on TV is the same thing we do in this forum. Some of these threads have gotten quite heated in the past, and I am sure were we all in person there would be screaming and fighting. I find them entertaining, and they do make points that are meant to make people think.

I agree with you on one point, I also don't think it is possible for liberals and conservatives to work together. The base for each group has moved so completely away from each other it is hopeless. It would be quite interesting to cut the country in half and let the liberals run one side, the conservatives the other. I think that would be a great thesis study. Alas, that won't be happening anytime soon, unless Gov. Perry really does secede from the union......

It could be argued that the post-war era was the start of the decline of morality in our society. Crime rates rose steadily in the 60's, 70's and 80's, peaking in the mid 90's (according to FBI crime data). This correlates with the rising rates of moral decline. (Divorce and children born out of wedlock are two relevent examples). ** I know this might ruffle the feathers of any single mothers, but it is a proven statistic, at least in the US** It could also be argued that the decrease we have seen since the mid 90's is because many states have instituted the 3 stikes law, not because people have re-gained their moral compass. (which by the way has nothing to do with religion......)

Most of your posts are generally informative and well thought out. I just wish that sometimes you would loose your "I'm smarter than all of you" tone. You may not be doing it intentionally, but its there.

One website I like, and mainly its because I am lazy, is realclearpolitics.com its kind of a compilation site that links you to articles, videos, blogs, etc from opinionists and news sources from all over each day. One stop shopping at its best, and non-partisan to boot.

Krista - posted on 01/07/2010

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I do enjoy Rachel Maddow, though. I don't watch her often, as I don't get MSNBC, but every so often I watch her online. She seems to be very intelligent, and is quite the policy wonk.

And my hat is off to you for watching full episodes of Glenn Beck. I'd have to go lie down in a dark room afterwards until the nausea passed.

I miss real journalists, though....oh Peter Jennings...we hardly knew ye.

Kelly - posted on 01/07/2010

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OMG! That was funny........ now see, in the good ole days, those punk skateboarders wouldn't be allowed to loiter on the sidewalk either......... JK :-)

Kelly - posted on 01/07/2010

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I agree with you Dana, Glenn Beck's animation takes away from what he is trying to convey a lot of the time. It's the one thing I wish he would control a bit. As far as the overall message, I don't think its necessarily all stupid. Do I wish we would revert back to a time when minorities and women had little or no rights? Of course not! But the mutual respect that people had for each other overall is missing in todays society. I don't like seeing some poor lady get honked at and cursed, and then watch the angry guy drive up her ass because she hesitated a mili-second at a stoplight. And my personal pet peave? Growing up in a family that always worked for airlines, I watched as a child when people actually dressed up to get on an airplane. By the time I worked as a flight attendant, booty shorts, bathing suits, and lingerie were standard choices. Now I am all for a nice pair of jeans and a tasteful shirt instead of a 3 piece suit, but come on people! Not that I am saying booty shorts are the end of the world, I just think it goes to show how far morals, self-respect, and respect for others have gone down.

I will give you that the only time I watch John Stewart is in clips posted here like this one. But from what I saw, he spliced together a buch of clips to show an extreme example of the message Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly were trying to convey. That to me is twisting words.

Dana - posted on 01/07/2010

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Kelly, I think you're wrong here. The funny thing about Jon Stewart is that he doesn't have to "twist" words. We all know what they mean when they said what they said, it's still just stupid. Glenn Beck crying over it, come on.....

Show me a clip of an idiot liberal and I'll laugh with the rest of them.

Kelly - posted on 01/07/2010

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That was a pretty funny video. Of course, it was meant for entertainment purposes, and I think it shows just how much you can twist the words of someone else to fit your agenda. (In this case making John Stewarts audience laugh) Joy, I admire your passion, but I think if you actually watched or listened to any Conservative opinionists on a regular basis, you would maybe understand what they are saying. Of course in a two second edited clip it is easy to misconstrue what people are saying. No one has ever said there was a "perfect" time in American History. What O'Reilly, Beck, etc are trying to convey is the day to day simplicity that existed in the past. People used to let their kids play outside all day without fear they would be abducted and raped or murdered. If you broke down on the side of the road in the dark, someone would actually stop and help you, and you could reasonably accept their help without fear. If you had a heart attack on the sidewalk, people would rush to your aid without fear of AIDS, Hep, or some other disease. You realistically cannot do those things in today's America.

On a side note, Beck and O'Reilly I know for sure (from watching their shows and listening to their talk radio shows) hold Republicans just as accountable for what is happening in our country. They repeatedly have stated they are not Republicans themselves. They stand for Conservative values. I also know from watching CNN's "Situation Room" and Ed Schultz on MSNBC, that liberal opinionists can be very vile, and are guilty of the blame game, and party dissension. Does this justify anything from the "Right"? No I don't believe that. But I think there is a lot of the pot calling the kettle black going on here..........

JL - posted on 01/07/2010

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Does Glen Beck really know American history.Wait in the late 1970s Conservatives were saying the same crap and blaiming Liberals for foreign issues and the crappy economy..and now they want to go back to that time.Now that time is great ?? Ummm, HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!



Oh wait no they are talking about the delusional "Leave it to Beaver" era with the atomic bomb, fear of communism, racial violence, women dying from back alley abortions, homophobia, cold war...Ummmm, HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!





DUH, you were kids of course it was a simpler time, the biggest issue you faced was staying in the lines when coloring.



They irritate me and piss me off because they are people who are making money off of sensationalizing the differences people have. They are great at spinning everything into a us against them arguement. They do nothing but play the blame game. They tug at peoples irrational fears, seduce their anger, and ignore reality so they can turn a profit. It is all about the bottom dollar. They don't even bother to really understand or make themselves privy to history they just like to paint with their crap a picture of perfection.



No era has ever been perfect and free of disorder and issues so lets get real and look forward not focusing on some delustional version of the past. How the hell do we make things better if we don't come together and look toward bettering the future. I don't want digression. I want progression.

Dana - posted on 01/07/2010

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Oh, that's a good segment. Leave it to Jon Stewart to point out the idiocy of these people and their statements.

Sara - posted on 01/07/2010

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I think they make a good point here. What is it exactly that America should be? We're all going to find things that we don't like, but how can you expect to make progress if you never change? I think this just highlights the tactics that Beck and others like him use to make people think that Obama and the Dems are to blame for all their problems and their lot in life...they really should be ashamed of themselves (Glenn Beck and Company).

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