feminism equals destruction of family...

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009 ( 53 moms have responded )

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yes, yes I know...I'm a troll...anyhoo

do we really believe this? I must admit one of my biggest pet peeves is women who start with "I'm not a feminist but..." Men and women, boys and girls are different BUT EQUAL.

There was a misguided theory in the seventies that wondered if gender roles were caused by nature or nurture...they tested it...turns out to be mostly nature (as I understand it). This is not the nature of the movement today.

Women represent over half of the work force but only 12% of executives...we still don't always get paid the same as men, even when we do the EXACT same job.

I am a feminist, it doesn't affect the way I love my son in any way! I intend to raise him, taking pride in himself AND respecting women. It is possible, my boyfriend is living proof

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Tawny - posted on 10/05/2009

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I believe a women can do anything they put their mind to it. But a women to be a cop, firefighter, correctional officer, mechanic and etc. (you get my point) are a special kind of women. Those jobs are hard and a special women can do it. I know many women who have these jobs and they do it well and the men who work with them appreciate that they are there. And no I could not do any of these jobs and why I say this is becuase none of these interest me. I once thought of being a correctional officer just becuase my dad and brother were one, but I knew deep down that I didn't have the mentality and strength as some of the other women in this postion had. But as a Dad not being able to play the mom role yes they are not a mom I mean come on our moms are special and there is just something about a mom. But I believe that and have seen it that a dad who can play both roles becuase they have to, no they may not be the mom but I have seen many men who can take care of a household and children while working and do it real well by themselves. My brother had to do it for awhile and his kids are just fine. I think feminism has gotten a bad name and there are some who take it a bit far. Sometimes I wonder it seems that some think that women should be the good little wife, take care of the children make the meal and we are back in the 50's where women were not heard. Don't get me wrong, hey Im a stay at home mom my hubby bring homes the bacon and I take care of my child, this is my choice and I would not push it on anyone and tell them that they are wrong to work and how can you put your child in daycare and blah blah blah... Everyone has there own beliefs and raise there families differently and that is okay. I know Im rambling on and on not making much sense that means that I really need to go to bed. .. :)

ME - posted on 10/03/2009

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As a philosopher in the Academy for the last 14 years, I know a little bit about sexism. Any work produced by women is (typically) concidered "Women's Studies" rather than philosophy. Trying to get a teaching job in a Philosophy dept. if you have a vagina is nearly as difficult as becoming a Catholic Priest! Sexism Happens! Everywhere, and it is never ok. My father was a grade school principal for 35 years. He played softball and football with the little kids, they fought over who got to sit with him in the Cafeteria for lunch everyday, and they hugged him on the way out the door to their busses every day! They adored him because he is sweet, caring, and funny; not because he's a gruff badass! He (my dad) also likes musical theater, desperate housewives, and sex in the city...He's a MAN, but he doesn't fit any of your stereotypes. If I were to base my opinions of ALL men on my experience with my dad (or on my husband who had a pink pedicure for our wedding, and is also a golden gloves boxer), I would expect some interesting things. I find it is far easier to let people be individuals!

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Laura I think it's a states thing. I know what ours are capable of at least. /:)



Our females patrol ALONE. When they are on night shift they are teamed together. It's not unheard of either for two females to go out together. I've seen it a lot.



Traci, As for the firefighters. It is still a moot point. Women are still part of the team and it is a team that goes out to fight the fires. I would like to know where anyone has ever seen only ONE firefighter enter a burning building or show up on site. /:)



I will admit that in our natural state women are the weaker sex physically, sometimes. I know plenty of women that can take down men twice their size, I have laid out men twice my size, it is because of generalizations like you (christa and traci) have made that myself and the other women were able to do so. The men thought we were weak women, we're not. We are fully capable, if you choose to get off your butt and learn a few things.

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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yeah, I think that boys toys are the way that they are because boys are the way boys are.

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Christa:




I disagree.  They do get it done, but it's not as well as a woman would have done it.  I think when it comes to raising children or caring for them, women can do it better.  There's a reason when my daughter wants to play she goes to daddy, but when she's hurt, scared etc she comes to me.  We have different strengths.  That’s also why I think it’s best to have a mother and father both to raise the child.  Because each sex brings different things that the other sex can not make up for.





That is YOUR family though. You can't make sweeping generalizations like that about every male and female out there.



In our house my kids run to me just as much as dad no matter if they want to play, are injured or sick.

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Johnny - posted on 10/04/2009

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Abilities depend on the individual and not the gender. It may be the general case that more individuals of a particular gender have certain abilities, but there is no definitive "male" strengths and "female" strengths. In the case of parenting, in our household, I am the one my daughter comes to for comfort. I have the "na na's" and that's what makes her feel better. My husband just does not have the right equipment. But my parents look after her when I am at work, and when something bad happens when she is there, she goes to my dad, not my mom. He has the right neck for nuzzling apparently. She does not know to prefer a female to a male for nurturing, she just knows who makes her feel better the quickest.

And by the way, my hubby can kick anyone's ass when it comes to the fastest, most cleanly vacuuming, he is my vacuum hero. No woman could ever come close. I think it's because he's 6'4" with really long arms. Any takers?

Jeannette - posted on 10/04/2009

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All the toys in the house were accessible by all kids at all times. My son played with my daughters' toys, but differently than my daughters would play with them. He would take the doll house and run a motorcycle through it, messing up the furniture, running over the dolls...Alexis thought it was great, Sara would get mad.
The girls would play with Trevor's toys as well. One would grab a truck and the other a superhero, and off they'd go.
I don't think it matters what toys you give kids, they are going to play with them however they want to...Trevor was a lot rougher with his and the girls' toys.
When he was about 3 he wanted his nails painted because my MIL was painting both of my daughters nails...he got clear polish. His dad would have been upset if there had been color. Trevor would not even consider this now...not even a manicure. He does do a lot of fishing, camping, hunting, digging, a manicure would not do well with him! lol!
Both of my daughters could get manicures and be just fine.
My husband is gruff. He watches sports, likes to yell, goes camping with our son, just acts nothing like me or women I know... NOTHING like us. However, he does enjoy going to see plays, is interested in seeing more operas, reads all the time (fiction and history) will cook and clean as willingly as he will sit and play a video game, spends hours shopping (in different stores)...
We share likes, but we act nothing alike.

Isobel - posted on 10/03/2009

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she has a feeling...therefore she is right...and since we keep insisting on proving her wrong with all of our "facts" and our "stories" that don't match up with the ones that she knows (in her small neighbourhood and ONE PD) ...she is taking her ball and going home thank you very much.

Dana - posted on 10/03/2009

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Well, It's not a states thing, well not a United States thing. It must be more of a region thing, I guess where ever your from, Taci, male cops are still sexist or men in general. I also have of cops in my family, they have no issues working with women.



Also, as far as the "UPS story" I was making a point that even they have restrictions why wouldn't the fire departments. I'm sure they have to be able to lift more than 100 lbs. I don't know why you couldn't understand that....

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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Of course intelligence as well as instinct is a large part of the job, but when it comes down to it, you have to be able to make the arrest. I'm not saying chicks (excuse moi, I mean, women) shouldn't be allowed to be cops, but I am saying that they are not as capable as male cops in terms of what they can and cannot do. Most male cops, if they are being honest, would agree, I think.



About covering eachother, yes, they usually try to provide backup to eachother, but when you've got a dept that is strapped for manpower, which most PD's are nowadays, the cops need to make the best use of their time, and the female officer, I would say, is in more danger by herself than a male officer would be.



I'm not going to explain my thoughts any further on this. This is what I believe to be true based upon MANY police officers(who are family and friends) and their experiences. When new evidence to the contrary is presented to me by people I trust, I'll reevaluate my positions. Until then, that is what I believe to be true. It's the same old, same old over here....what's the point?

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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no...that's bullshit! and that is sexism...I believe that I made the point that SOME women are capable...and that THEY should be treated with respect (even the use of the term chick-cop is disrespectful)

Correct me if I'm wrong but do ALL cops not cover each others' backs... the fact that so many male cops bitch about having to work with women only proves our point further.

My Grampa was a police officer, and from what I understand, intelligence had more to do with the job than brute strength. (Although like I said, I know lots of women that can kick a lot of men's asses).

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Amie:

Christa if notice how I ignored your comments about firefighters? It's because it has NO BEARING on our original topic of discussion which was parenting.

My argument obviously stands or you would have rebuked with something about that.

As for the sake of firefighters YES there are requirements like Dana has pointed out. They HAVE to pass exams, physical as well as written. /:)



A lot of times, they'll have lower standards for the women than they do the men, in terms of physical ability.  Just like in the Olympics or military or any other sport, men are stronger and faster, its nature.  It doesn't mean women are bad, but we are weaker. 



 



In terms of the UPS story, that's because they have to be able to lift a package....how many firefighters are saving people who weigh 100lbs???  This is America, we've got WEIGHT here! LOL  Our teens are often larger than  that! :)

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Amie:

Christa,

As I said.... Just because it's DIFFERENT doesn't mean it's not just as GOOD. They get different results from doing things differently. Shocker I know. It doesn't mean the children are not going to grow up to be great adults.

And yes I have had a male ob/gyn. My son was delivered by a male and so was our 2nd daughter.

Just because you had a bad experience with ONE male doctor doesn't mean they are all like that.

Again... you can NOT make sweeping generalizations like that.

Traci... same goes for you. You CAN NOT make sweeping generalizations. I know a few female cops who would be very offended to hear you say that. They are good and work hard at their jobs.



My generalizations are valid.  Every male cop I know says they have to "babysit" the chicks.  They just cannot defend themselves like the guys can.  I'm sure you have female cops friends that would be offended at that statement, and I'm sure they do their best.... heck, I know chick cops that would be mad that I said that.  But that doesn't mean its not the truth.  Females are not as strong as men, GENERALLY (which means more often than not).  When you've got theives running from the cops who have nothing to lose, they are gonna go full boat on a chick when she tries to wrestle them to the ground for the arrest.  Most females just aren't strong enough to do the job like it needs to be done.  That doesn't mean ALL chicks are bad cops, but when female cops are on duty, the guys have to make sure they are there to back them up and be there if they need help.  When you've got a small PD that is undermanned as it is, it just isn't right to have some who have to watch the others.  That's what I've seen in my experience and I know it sounds bad, but I'm not going to say something that isn't the truth just to get people to agree with me.  This is coming from someone who knows a lot about the profession.

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Laura:

Traci, I haven't bought any dolls for my son either...then again he hasn't asked for any. I'm curious, would you allow your son to play with a doll if he desperately wanted to...I know when my son was 1 1/2, I was painting my toe nails and he just put his foot in front of my face and said ME TOO! I did it, any mu ex-husband was livid...but I don't think any harm was done...my son would be mortified now if he remembered ;)



Well, like I said, he has played barbies in the past with his older sister, but I don't think I'd buy him one of his own.  But, for instance, my daughter gave him her  My Little Pony that was blue and orange to put in his bedroom because it is Chicago Bears colors.  No big deal, right? lol  I think its funny.  Would Santa bring him Barbies for Christmas?  I don't see that happening, but if a parent wants to do that, then by all means....



 



Your story about you son is cute, there's nothing wrong with that.  Once.  lol :)  And he was young enough where that was funny....lol :) 



 



I'm just glad I don't have to deal with it, my son is about as masculine as they come.  Lately it's Batman, but everyday he puts on a different superhero costume....Transformers, The Thing, The Hulk, The Flash, Captain Jack, Iron Man, the list goes on.....lol. 

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Christa if notice how I ignored your comments about firefighters? It's because it has NO BEARING on our original topic of discussion which was parenting.

My argument obviously stands or you would have rebuked with something about that.

As for the sake of firefighters YES there are requirements like Dana has pointed out. They HAVE to pass exams, physical as well as written. /:)

Dana - posted on 10/02/2009

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Aren't there requirements to be a firefigher? Even if you work for the UPS male or female you have to be able to lift 100 lbs.

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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But what about intelligence...I think any fire fighter out there will tell you that understanding how a fire works and how to maneuver within one is AS important as brute strength...plus...I know lots of 6 foot amazon women who could kick my boyfriends ass...don't tell him I said that ;)

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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Traci, I haven't bought any dolls for my son either...then again he hasn't asked for any. I'm curious, would you allow your son to play with a doll if he desperately wanted to...I know when my son was 1 1/2, I was painting my toe nails and he just put his foot in front of my face and said ME TOO! I did it, any mu ex-husband was livid...but I don't think any harm was done...my son would be mortified now if he remembered ;)

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Christa,

As I said.... Just because it's DIFFERENT doesn't mean it's not just as GOOD. They get different results from doing things differently. Shocker I know. It doesn't mean the children are not going to grow up to be great adults.

And yes I have had a male ob/gyn. My son was delivered by a male and so was our 2nd daughter.

Just because you had a bad experience with ONE male doctor doesn't mean they are all like that.

Again... you can NOT make sweeping generalizations like that.

Traci... same goes for you. You CAN NOT make sweeping generalizations. I know a few female cops who would be very offended to hear you say that. They are good and work hard at their jobs.

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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I can vouch for the female cop thing....they have to be babysat....sorry, but it's the truth....

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Christa:

I'm not saying men shouldn't be allowed to be teachers and women shouldn't be allowed to be police men, but there is a difference.


There is but my point (which maybe wasn't clear) is that just because someone may do something DIFFERENTLY, whether it's a cultural, age, or sex thing, it does NOT make it bad. It's just DIFFERENT and just as GOOD.

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Traci:

This has me thinking....would you ever hire a male nanny? I always think of that Friends episode with Sandy...lol. It's just creepy to me. I don't care if that sounds sexist or not, I wouldn't want some dude taking care of my kids. lol


I would hire a male nanny if I ever decided to go back to work in the office instead of doing it from home.



 



Provided he passed the qualifications and background check that ANY stranger would have to do if I got someone outside my family.

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Christa:



Quoting Amie:

I'm honestly sorry but those stances are so outdated. Men are just as capable of being a GREAT parent as women. That natural instinct is just there with some of them, with others they have to learn it. But it's the same way with women. We don't all have a magic switch that turns on as soon as we give birth.





 






I have to disagree with you here.  My husband is a great father and he's better then most, but he can not take care of her the way I can.  In fact when he comes home and cooks dinner (that's right he cooks dinner) he FREAKS out when she's in there under his feet, he can not handle the multi tasking, that I do every moment (as my daughter is trying to push buttons on the computer).  Men are great parents, but I truly don't think they can fill the role of the mother, they can't do what we can do because it's not how they are wired.  I do believe we are inherently different and we need to embrace those differences instead of trying to act like they don't exist.  That doesn’t mean I think a man can be a better accountant, CEO, manager, etc.  I do think we are equal in some ways, but we are different.  I don’t think a man could be a nanny or a nurse or an elementary teacher as well as a women and I don’t think a women can be a firefighter or an on the street police officer as well as a man.  We are different and some of those differences can not be hidden.





Just because they do something differently doesn't mean it's not right. /:) I multi task much better than my husband but he still gets it all done when he needs to do it alone.



They do it differently, so what? It's still just as good!

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Jenny:

Yes, men and women are different in general terms but men are different too from each other. My man can cook a dinner, mind the kids while tidying up the house and sometimes gets it done faster than I can.

ETA my Grades 2,3,4 and 6 teachers were all men and did a fine job. My dad had just died and I went to a new school in Grade 2 and he did a great job of helping me ease into it comfortably.



LOL...mine doesn't cook (not because he can't, but because he's spoiled) but man, he can clean!  He does it faster than me as well....I try to do too much multitasking when I do it, I guess....



 



Check facebook.....dust.....do some dishes.....talk on the phone....organize something....vacuum..etc etc. LOL  He just goes BAM! BAM! BAM! and it's done! :)

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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You're right, we are different...there's no question about that...I think it's important to recognize that there are exceptions to every rule...plenty of great male teachers and female cops (not as many but lots)...

I think that the reason so many conservative women have only heard from the "crazy loud" feminists is because the rest have become afraid to admit that they are for fear of being thrown into the same pile...

yes I know, again the parallells...I would like the record to show that I have NEVER lumped everyone of either group together...I have always warned of the dangers of generalization.

Traci - posted on 10/02/2009

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I think there are different levels of feminism. There are regular chicks like us who think we should have the right to vote and be equals in our relationships and then there are woman who think there is absolutely no difference between the sexes and almost reject their feminity. I think there are very real differences. Women have the babies for a reason, we are more caring, nurturing, and patient. We have softer skin and more fat in order to care for our young. I don't think there is any denying why our roles are they way they are.



I don't see anything bad about raising my girls to be girly. We buy them dolls and makeup and girl stuff. Their room is pink and they are feminine. Well, except for my Gracie....I think she might end up being a rough kid....lol. My son gets superheroes and cars and footballs and his room is Chicago Bears. He is a boy's boy and ROUGH. We don't freak if he wants to play Barbies with his sisters, but I don't buy him dolls.



I want my girls to grow up and have a family but also be able to take care of themselves. I'll teach my son that it is his job to take care of his family.



My hubby and I lead very traditional familial roles, but we like it that way. He works and takes care of the cars and outside. I shop, take care of the kids and clean the house. It works for us. He'll change a diaper here and there, but very rarely does he even have the opportunity to do it because I just do. We make financial decisions together, but I take care of the bills.



I don't think there's anything weird about a guy taking care of his kids, its nice every now and then. But I think if you stay home and your husband works, he shouldn't be coming home to a dirty house, screaming kids, and have to make his own dinner. It's not because he's the king or anything, but those things should not happen out of respect for him. Just as I would expect the same to be done if I was the one who worked outside the home. If you don't work outside the home, then your household is your job, IMO.



I didn't read the post that is being talked about, but I think more women in the workplace has been detrimental to kids. I think once you decide to have kids, it is your job to see to it that they are brought up right. There are too many kids who come home to empty houses and they need guidance. I remember when I was young, the place we all wanted to hang out at was at the girls house who's mom worked until 6. I realize its becoming harder and harder for families to live on one income (although a lot of that is due to our own "I want it" problems). I think if you can stay home, you should. Your kids need you MUCH more than the workforce needs you. That's just me though. I don't look down on women who work, as long as they're not asking me to pay for their childcare, rock on! It's up to every family to make that decision for themselves.



This has me thinking....would you ever hire a male nanny? I always think of that Friends episode with Sandy...lol. It's just creepy to me. I don't care if that sounds sexist or not, I wouldn't want some dude taking care of my kids. lol

Jenny - posted on 10/02/2009

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Yes, men and women are different in general terms but men are different too from each other. My man can cook a dinner, mind the kids while tidying up the house and sometimes gets it done faster than I can.



ETA my Grades 2,3,4 and 6 teachers were all men and did a fine job. My dad had just died and I went to a new school in Grade 2 and he did a great job of helping me ease into it comfortably.

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Christa:

I was staying out of this one because I figured you all saw my thoughts on the original board. ;-)

I think Laura you made a good point about different people defining it differently. I understand the "good" cause feminism has. However there are ALOT of people out there who are the man hating, ball busting women most think about when they think of a feminist. In fact it wasn't until on here that I met anyone who wasn't like that, that called themselves a feminist. I think, like with so many other causes, when the loudest voice is also the most extreme it gives the whole cause a bad reputation.


Sounds kinda like another group I know of ;)

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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No kidding. My husband took care of our kids for a week so I could go on a vacation by myself. He'd be highly offended to hear that women are calling him a wimp because he knows how to handle and raise our kids. Oh the horror.

I'm honestly sorry but those stances are so outdated. Men are just as capable of being a GREAT parent as women. That natural instinct is just there with some of them, with others they have to learn it. But it's the same way with women. We don't all have a magic switch that turns on as soon as we give birth.

Jenny - posted on 10/02/2009

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My Harley riding tradesman partner has ribbons in his hair right nowe and is colouring a princess with our daughter. What a weenie!

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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I also think that my boyfriend (who still plays full-contact hockey) might take offense at being called a weenie cause he picks the kids up from school and makes them dinner when I have class;)

Amie - posted on 10/02/2009

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ROFL Laura. Every man I know here is the same way. They will also be the first to knock you silly if you claim they aren't a real man for listening to their wife. =)

My Grandfather, My dad, My brother, My husband are all sweet kind caring men. They know how to treat a woman, they know how to take care of children (from a newborn on), they know all about the feminism movement and agree with it. It has not impacted any in our family. It has not made any of the men in my family wimps. They are well rounded, good men. They have never done any of these things because they had to either, they have always been this way because they know it's right. They know women are their equals.

Has anyone ever dated one of those man's man macho guys? Do you know what arrogant assholes they really are? /:) Excuse the language but good grief.

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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There will be no bashing from me...I will tell you a funny story about an Italian boyfriend that I had once who told me that in every European family, the man was the head of the household in front of the world...but every kid knew who was really in charge ;)

[deleted account]

I don't think feminism in itself destroys the family, but I think that boys are being raised as wimps because women make too many decisions on how they are raised. I'm a feminist because I believe in equality in the workplace and in politics, but the husband is the head of the family. I wouldn't expect him to give birth or nurse a baby for me so why should I take his role from him. I know I'll be lucky to avoid a bashing for saying so, but thats how I feel.

Dana - posted on 10/02/2009

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Quoting Amie:



Quoting dana:

I can't believe I took the time to read that. I don't see that it has ANYTHING to do with feminism. You were right not to post this, Laura. It makes no sense at all as far as a connection. While it's true women are capable of violence, I don't see that it has anything to do with feminism.

Anyone care to explain?





She's saying that feminism is a lie. It's not about treating us as equals; that it is about demonizing men. /:) Lord knows where that logic comes from.
I bet she likes her rights to vote, her freedom to speak her mind, etc.






LOL, thanks Amie.  I was hoping to hear what conservatives thought of this since they were the ones to originally have this discussion ,I assume.  I got the impression that Christa agreed ,I could be wrong, and wondered what the consensus was.

Isobel - posted on 10/02/2009

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I could argue that feminism as a whole would be much the same way that Christa has described Christianity...with many different sub-groups believing different things.

Choosing the one, most radical sect to destroy an entire movement is wrong...on so many levels

ME - posted on 10/02/2009

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"Feminism" cannot be put into any little box. Feminists have existed in some form or another for hundreds of years, and the term means many things to many different people. Anyone who tries to demonize "feminists" as a whole for the beliefs of a tiny minority is either completely misinformed about the history of the MANY different types of feminism, or completely uneducated. It's too bad when people base their opinions of a large group of individuals on lies or misconceptions...but it happens all of the time, so I won't even pretend to be surprised, nor do I see any reason to hide my disgust.

Amie - posted on 10/01/2009

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Quoting dana:

I can't believe I took the time to read that. I don't see that it has ANYTHING to do with feminism. You were right not to post this, Laura. It makes no sense at all as far as a connection. While it's true women are capable of violence, I don't see that it has anything to do with feminism.

Anyone care to explain?


She's saying that feminism is a lie. It's not about treating us as equals; that it is about demonizing men. /:) Lord knows where that logic comes from.
I bet she likes her rights to vote, her freedom to speak her mind, etc.

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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Quoting Christa:

No Laura, I don’t agree with you, but you can already see my thoughts. ;-)

I really don't care if you "troll", in fact that's why I started this group so we can have discussions without joining groups we don't belong to, but I do think you should at least post the OP so everyone doesn't have to go trolling to see it. All you've posted now is the title and that the conservatives in that group are "morons". It's not much of a discussion especially if everyone doesn't know what thread you are getting this from.


I don't know where you got the quote "morons", I'm quite certain that I referred to them as "ladies"...nobody here has insulted any people...just the idea implied in the title.  I understand that you are a little on the defensive (it seems you are on your own now, and I'm not all that comfortable leaving you to defend the right on your own, it must feel as though you are being attacked- I assure you that that is not the intention)



I had hoped that by posting topics that people on the right are interested and passionate about, that they might feel compelled to join an honest debate.

Dana - posted on 10/01/2009

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I can't believe I took the time to read that. I don't see that it has ANYTHING to do with feminism. You were right not to post this, Laura. It makes no sense at all as far as a connection. While it's true women are capable of violence, I don't see that it has anything to do with feminism.



Anyone care to explain?

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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The reason I didn't post this originally is because it's got nothing to do with feminism...until the last three sentences. it is a horrific story of violence, abuse, and dysfunction. The connection that she makes between this story and feminism makes NO sense.

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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Sorry about that Christa, I thought the title was ridiculous enough to encourage discussion. I am new to this stealing topics, but will get the hang of it soon I hope ;)
Here's the Original Post:

Why I loathe feminism... and believe it will ultimately destroy the family
By Erin Pizzey
Last updated at 9:50 AM on 23rd September 2009
Comments (129) Add to My Stories ERIN PIZZEY set up the world's first refuge for battered women in 1971 - and went on to establish an international movement for victims of domestic violence. But what she has never made public before is that her own childhood was scarred by the shocking cruelty of both her parents.
Here, for the first time, she tells the full harrowing story - and how it led her to a surprising, but deeply felt, conclusion ... Tortured childhood: Erin Pizzey was abused by both her mother and father
Though I remember little of my earliest years, I grew up in a world of extraordinary violence. I was born in 1939 in Tsingtao, China, and shortly after my family moved to Shanghai with my diplomat father, we were captured by the invading Japanese army. It was 1942, the war was raging and we were held under house arrest until we were exchanged for Japanese prisoners of war and put on the last boat out of China.

My father was ordered to Beirut by the diplomatic service, and we were left as refugees in Kokstad, South Africa. From living in an enormous house with a fleet of servants and a nanny, my twin sister Rosaleen and I were suddenly at the mercy of my mother Pat's temper. And it was ferocious. Having escaped the brutality of the war, we were introduced to a new brand domestic cruelty.

Indeed, my mother's explosive temper and abusive behaviour shaped the person I later became like no other event in my life.
Thirty years later, when feminism exploded onto the scene, I was often mistaken for a supporter of the movement. But I have never been a feminist, because, having experienced my mother's violence, I always knew that women can be as vicious and irresponsible as men.
Emotionally abused: Baby Erin (left) and twin sister Rosaleen with their parents
Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the movement, which proclaimed that all men are potential rapists and batterers, was based on a lie that, if allowed to flourish, would result in the complete destruction of family life.
From the very beginning, I waged war against my mother and quickly learned to disassociate myself from the pain of her beatings.
Her words, however, stayed with me all my life. 'You are lazy, useless, and ugly,' she would scream. 'You look like your father's side of the family - Irish trash.'
They were vicious words that I have heard repeated over and over by mothers everywhere. Indeed, when I later opened my refuge for battered women, 62 of the first 100 to come through the door were as abusive as the men they had left.
She was, however, right: I did look like my father, Cyril. While my twin sister was slim and had long dark hair, and my mother's deep blue eyes, I was fat and fair-haired, clumsy, noisy and brash.
I was only five but I knew my mother didn't like meI was only five years old, but I knew my mother didn't like me. And with no servants to restrain her now, she lashed out whenever she felt like it.
When we finally joined my father in a flat in Beirut, I soon realised that he was no saint either. He would constantly scream and rage at all of us.
He was particularly consumed by jealousy. Even though he verbally abused my mother and rarely showed her affection, he seemed compelled to follow her around like a guard dog.
If she spoke on the telephone, he grilled her until she burst into tears. If she went out shopping, he paced the room until she got back and exploded with rage if she were more than a few minutes late.
I hated my father with all my childish heart - and was truly terrified by him. He was 6ft 4in tall, massively built and had a huge paunch that hung over his belt. He stared out of piggy, pale blue eyes and had a big sloppy mouth that slobbered over my lips when he kissed me.
He didn't believe in baths, which he said were 'weakening', and smoked tins of Players Cigarettes, which made him smell like an ashtray. His rages were explosive and unpredictable.
Fresh-faced: Erin Pizzey, founder of the domestic violence charity Refuge, pictured here when she aged just 11
But despite his clumsy, predictable form of macho brutality - born out of his being the 17th child of a violent Irish father - it was my mother's more emotional, verbal form of abuse that scarred me most deeply.
She indulged in a particular kind of soul murder - and it was her cruelty that, even 60 years on, still reduces me to tears and leaves me convinced that feminism is a cynical, misguided ploy.
Unfortunately, at that time, what I wanted more than anything was for my mother to love me - something I never felt she truly did. And so, when my father was posted to Chicago, and I followed my mother to Toronto, to live with my godparents, I was initially hopeful. I believed that without my father's presence, she would have the time be a real mother.
But once in the bosom of this normal family, my own dysfunctional behaviour soon became apparent. I had, it seems, already been too badly damaged by my mother's hatred of me.
I was always in trouble at school, encouraging the other children to behave as badly as I did. On one occasion, I was caught sitting on the doorstep giving away the money I'd stolen from my mother's bag.
Needless to say, my mother went berserk. She took me upstairs and beat me with an ironing cord until the blood ran down my legs. I showed my injuries to my teacher the next morning - but she just stared back impassively and did nothing.
Many years later, when feminists started demonising all fathers, these stark images continually reminded me of the truth - that domestic violence is not a gender issue.
She beat me until the blood ran down my legsShortly after the war, my father was posted to Tehran and we all went to live with him. It was only when I saw him again that I remembered how much I hated him.
He would come home from the office, and as he put the key in the door I would freeze. I would often hear him coughing outside the door - he was still a heavy smoker - and spitting phlegm into the flower bed.
His eyes were windows into his violent moods. If they were narrowed and red, I knew he was in a rage and it would only be a matter of time before he erupted.
But my hatred of my father was pure and uncontaminated by any other emotions. My feelings about my mother, however, were far more complicated.
As much as I was devastated by her hatred of me, I still genuinely strove for her love. In fact, I had moments of great compassion for her when I saw her weeping and wailing in front of my father.
Occasionally, she fought back against his brutality. She was only 4ft 9in, but my mother was extremely strong and her tongue was lethal. She accused him of being an oaf and an idiot. She called his mother a prostitute and his father a common Irish drunk.
Growing old gracefully: Erin Pizzey as she looks these days
Unsurprisingly, my brother and sister were both withdrawn and silent children. My sister suffered from headaches, weeping eczema and mysterious days of paralysis when she was unable to get up from her bed.
To outsiders, my father was a genial, intelligent man and my mother a famous party hostess with three beautiful children and a perfect diplomatic family. In fact, my parents were both violent, cruel people and we were all deeply damaged.
In 1949, my father was posted back to Tien Sien, in China. I was left with my twin sister in a boarding school - Leweston, near Sherborne in Dorset - and my brother accompanied my parents.
Very shortly after they took up their post, however, my parents were captured again - this time by the communists - and held under house arrest for three years.
Without them, I felt an abiding sense of peace and loved my holidays at St Mary's in Uplyme, a holiday home for children whose parents were abroad. Miss Williams, who ran the place, was the first adult that I really admired and respected. She became my mentor.
But this idyll was shattered when I heard that my parents had been released. I remember being called to the telephone in the convent to speak to my mother. I had completely blotted my parents out of my life and so when I heard her Canadian accent, I just screamed down the phone.
'You're not my mother!' I yelled, all too aware that the whole circus was about to start again.
When my mother first returned, to a house outside Axminster, we enjoyed an uneasy truce. I was much taller than her now, and too big for her to batter.
Instead, she began to list my father's faults, and the atrocities he had inflicted on us all, as if I were now her confidante. She would tell me how much she hated him and that they never should have married.
'But I stayed for you,' she told me. 'I stayed because I wanted you to go to a private school and enjoy a comfortable way of life.'
I took the decision that I would have to stab my fatherOnce again, she was unleashing her peculiar brand of emotional cruelty, and placing all the responsibility - and guilt - on me. It was a pattern of behaviour I would witness again and again among some of the women in my refuge.
The day my father was due to join us in the new house, my mother was a nervous wreck. She was crying and clinging on to me, demanding that I protect her. 'I don't want him anywhere near me,' she said.
In dysfunctional families, children, no matter how badly they are treated, will try to take on the parenting role. For me, this still meant protecting and comforting my mother.
And so, on the night of my father's return, I took a large carving knife from the kitchen and went up to my parents' bedroom, which I peered into through a gap in the door. They slept in separate, single beds and I took the extraordinary decision that I would stab him if he tried to force himself on her.


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I was, on reflection, following my mother's unspoken orders. Remarkably, she had manipulated me to such a degree that I was now willing to murder for her.
My father certainly tried to talk his way into her bed. Fortunately, however, he didn't become physical. If he had, he would now be dead and my life would have turned out very differently.
In the 1950s, while I was working in Hong Kong, my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I returned to our house near Axminster - and found my father unchanged.
By now, he was trying to force my mother to sign her money - she had received a sizeable inheritance from her father - over to him. Week after week, in the local cottage hospital, she refused, and week after week, he ranted and raved at her while she writhed in pain. I begged the nurses to stop him, but they said no one could come between a man and his wife.
At first, my mother refused to believe she was dying. But when my father finally broke her down, and bullied her into signing the papers, her life began to ebb away in earnest.
She died on September 16, 1958, and my father had the body brought home and placed in the dining room. That night, as she lay next door, we sat down to have supper at the table in the hall.
He made us stand vigil over her visibly decomposing bodyAfter supper, my father ordered us into the dining room, where my mother's open coffin was draped with a red cloth. My brother, sister and I begged my father not to remove the cloth, but when we closed our eyes for a moment to say a prayer for her, we opened them to be confronted by her pale face. I vividly remember that there was cotton wool sticking out of her nose.
Every night, we would stand vigil over my mother's body, and every night she would be exposed to the humiliation of having her children see her visibly decomposing. At last, six days later, my father buried her.
I left home the next day and only saw him once more - when I took his ashes to my mother's grave in 1982.
I only decided to talk about my traumatic childhood last week - on a BBC radio programme called The House Where I Grew Up - but I decided long ago I would not repeat the toxic lessons I learned as a child. Instead, I would become a survivor.
Feminism, I realised, was a lie. Women and men are both capable of extraordinary cruelty. Indeed, the only thing a child really needs - two biological parents under one roof - was being undermined by the very ideology which claimed to speak up for women's rights.
This country is now on the brink of serious moral collapse. We must stop demonising men and start healing the rift that feminism has created between men and women.
Harriet Harman's insidious and manipulative philosophy that women are always victims and men always oppressors can only continue this unspeakable cycle of violence. And it's our children who will suffer.

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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I think the problem is that we need someone to disagree...I will assume, since they are all quiet, that they agree with me ;)

Amie - posted on 10/01/2009

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I did read their exact words. It's why I chose to keep my thoughts to myself. What I think needs to be formulated in a way that is appropriate for the forum. I will respond later though. Once my laughter has contained itself. =)

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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OK, so basically, the ladies on the other board believe that our society (because of feminists) is turning our boys into wimpy, emasculated,weenies (for a lack of a better word). All of us feminists believe that men and women are exactly the same, that feminism devalues motherhood...discuss (or you could go and read their exact words if you wish).

It goes without saying that I believe this is ridiculous.

Dana - posted on 10/01/2009

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I don't think people really understand the meaning of feminism. They can't if they think it destroy's a family.

Isobel - posted on 10/01/2009

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it's stolen from the republican page...they write pages and pages about it!

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