Health Care Bill Passed!

Jenny - posted on 11/10/2009

I think she's saying if you don't want to have a thread on health care focus on the Canadian system then it's probably a good idea to post videos that do not focus on the Canadian system.



The other reason it keeps popping up is because of the constant references to the public option leading to socialism.

Isobel - posted on 11/10/2009

I believe you are indeed mistaking me for somebody else, for the record...nobody listened because the entire post was about Canada. Sorry

Dana - posted on 11/10/2009

Quoting Christa:

They say it all the time. I'm not sure why you don't see what I'm talking about. The second I say I'm against this bill because I'm against socialized healthcare of any kind I get jumped all over and told how great it works there and how I'm just selfish. It gets old.

I get where you are coming from but, I still don't see where anyone did that here. 

Isobel - posted on 11/10/2009

Then why would you post a five minute rant against the Canadian system by John Stossel AFTER we have discussed the Canada bashing issue?

Isobel - posted on 11/10/2009

Quoting Christa:

I will have to disagree. Every time this topic comes up we end up talking about Canada and how it works great for them and why would anyone think its so bad. I would love to have a debate about this topic without it becoming all about Canada (or any other country) and how great they are for how they do things. And having everybody get so bent out of shape when we say we don't want to do it their way. That has yet to happen and I don't see it happening in the future, which is why I've grown tired of talking about this topic.

If you would love to have a debate about YOUR health care system...stop mentioning Canada's...and the UK's and everyone elses.  Then we can stop defending our way of life.  It's really that simple

Dana - posted on 11/10/2009

Christa, I don't see where any of our Canadian friends said that.

Dana - posted on 11/10/2009

Christa, no one is shoving their way of life down anyone's throat.

Isobel - posted on 11/10/2009

The option being proposed is unique to the US...it is nothing like our system, UKs system, Frances system...What you keep hearing as propaganda FOR our systems is ACTUALLY us defending ourselves from right wing BULLSHIT scare tactics

Sara - posted on 11/10/2009

Quoting Christa:

I'm well aware that we have a blended system. I don't want it going any further onto the socialist side then it already is. And yes there are current social programs that I already don't like, so I'm not too keen on adding more.

I'm not sure why you all are so set on making us just like all these other countries. I’m glad you all are happy with what you have, but I don’t live anywhere else for a reason. We are different for a reason and most Americans like our differences and we want to find a solution to our own problems without hearing how we should copy XYZ country. So quit comparing us to all these other countries, we are different and we like it that way. That's why our country was formed to be different from Europe, not to be a copy cat across the ocean.

Well, I don't know about that, the US Constitution borrows pretty heavily from the Magna Carta ...and why is it so bad to borrow good ideas from other countries?  It is true, we are our own nation, but if something is working in another nation, isn't it kind of close-minded and nationalistic to ignore it and not at least consider that it may be a good thing for our nation as well? 

Dana - posted on 11/10/2009

I didn't realize the US strives to be different. Is that our goal? Why have we fought so hard to spread democracy for so many years then?

Amie - posted on 11/10/2009

So your happy with being low on the list for developed countries? Your OK with being ranked lower than those other countries who lean a bit more to the socialist side then you guys do?
On the whole these other countries have longer life spans, better education, better health care, better quality of life, etc.

Jenny - posted on 11/09/2009

Roads, parks, well the entire tax system is a socialist idea. The government institution itself is socialism, everyone pays for it even if they don't want it. Whatever you want to call socialism is really not the issue I guess.

The real issue is what is right for society. Not you, not me. For the greater good of ALL. Oh there's some socialism again.

Isobel - posted on 11/09/2009

So socialism is fine when it's building schools, armies, post offices...but healthcare is just too far?

ME - posted on 11/09/2009

Social Democracies tend to be relatively successful...Pure Socialism fails, as does pure Communisim, Pure Capitalism, Pure Democracy, etc...suggestions that we could implement a perfect ideal are based on either self-deceptions or blatant falsehoods. When we take good ideas from many different philosophies (in almost any discipline) we wind up with a far better final product...

Jenny - posted on 11/09/2009

So is anytime you take money from rich people socialism?



ETA even if we do call it socialism, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Go read the thread on DM about healthcare in other countries and educate yourself on the realities of those system by those who live in them.

Jenny - posted on 11/09/2009

Quoting Christa:

 

I do however have a problem with the tax subsidies and taxing high income individuals.  IF the public option is self funded by those using it, what do they need all this tax money for and why are they giving it away to others?  IF this is going to cut cost in Medicare why do they need to increase taxes? That is the socialist aspect of this bill that I do not support.  Also the 1.2 trillion dollar price tag I have a problem with, again if this is lowering costs, why is there such a high price tag?

 

 

Increasing taxes is not socailism, nothing about this bill is socialism. Sharing is not socialism. Can we stop using the S word and focus on the merits of the actual bill. Otherwise it's just reguritating proganda and not condusive to the discussion.

Also, there has to be start up costs to implement a program before the income from those signing up can be funneled into the program. You can't take people's money for years and just bank it until you have enough to maintain the programs on a break even basis or there is no point in starting it in the first place. This is money that taxpayers who want a public option have also paid in. Once it leaves "your" hands, it is no longer YOUR money, it is the country's money to be doled in it the best way possible for the entire country. Not just middle class, white America, everybody.

Jenny - posted on 11/09/2009

I found this poll saying 72% want the public option http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/1...

This poll says providing for the uninsured is more important than keeping costs down. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/1...

This poll says health care reform loses major support without the public option, on both sides. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...

Good enough? I avoided anything from the Huffington Post of course lol.

Isobel - posted on 11/09/2009

Here's another thought...The money that will be taxed is already being paid in taxes. Instead of paying the sky-high bills that the uninsured leave behind and never pay, you will be chipping in for insurance. More like re-directing the money that's already being paid, not paying a brand new tax.

Amie - posted on 11/09/2009

Jenny Christa is right. The stats say 70% want reform. I'm not sure how many of that want a public option though.

Amie - posted on 11/09/2009

Quoting Christa:

I made my comments on abortion based on what Mary had said, I haven't had time to really look at what got passed.  If that is correct then I don't have a problem with the abortion.

 

I do however have a problem with the tax subsidies and taxing high income individuals.  IF the public option is self funded by those using it, what do they need all this tax money for and why are they giving it away to others?  IF this is going to cut cost in Medicare why do they need to increase taxes? That is the socialist aspect of this bill that I do not support.  Also the 1.2 trillion dollar price tag I have a problem with, again if this is lowering costs, why is there such a high price tag?

 

That’s the last I’m going to say on this topic because we have been there and done that and I am too tired to hear all the BS over again.

 

If that's the issue is more taxes then the republican bill should also get a nay from you and any other republican who is opposed to raising taxes. Their bill would also, not to the same degree, but they would still go up.

Jenny - posted on 11/09/2009

I have yet to see someone without health insurance be against these reforms. It seems some people are unable to see outside of their comfortable existance and realize there are other people in the country too. People who want health care and want a public option. Why should there opinions be disregarded because "you" are happy with your coverage and don't want the competition? From the stats I've seen, these are the people in the majority and in a democracy it is their will that should be followed.

Sara - posted on 11/09/2009

"I refuse to pay for someones health care that is just sitting at home expecting everyone else to pay their way through life. And there are plenty of them around. They put themselves in that situation and they should have to get themselves out of it, without anyone else's help."

The problem with that argument is that we are already paying for them! When they go to the emergency room and then don't pay their bill, that has ramifications for those of us that do have heath insurance and utilize those services. I truly believe that when a program is put in place that makes health insurance available to everybody, then it will actually lower costs for everyone! Plus, anyone that has the public option will be paying for it, it's not a program like Medicaid or Medicare, it's just another option that will hopefully make it more affordable for people so they can actually get insurance and stop using an emergency room as a primary care facility, or put health problems off until they get so bad it costs them a fortune to be treated!

Isobel - posted on 11/08/2009

If there are soooo many republican ideas...let's see one. I have yet to hear one republican rep say you know what, that sounds OK but why don't we try this instead, we think it would work better. Obama has done nothing but compromise...so much so that liberals and even some independents have lost faith in him...and STILL the right keeps right on bitching that he won't compromise...There will be no end to this whining and complaining until you have a new president (because the far right will not rest until he is gone...it doesn't matter what he does.)

?? - posted on 11/08/2009

Quoting Maleasha:

I can understand helping people out who are working their butts off and still can't afford to buy health insurance, but I refuse to pay for someones health care that is just sitting at home expecting everyone else to pay their way through life. And there are plenty of them around. They put themselves in that situation and they should have to get themselves out of it, without anyone else's help.

Yeeeeeeeeeesh, I'm sorry but TO ME this is THE most pathetic excuse out there in this whole health care debate. Talk about picking at the bones. It IS about helping the people who need it!! Why don't YOU get that!?!?! It's NOT about the morons that abuse things. It just makes you (in general) look ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC for REFUSING to help the people who DO NEED THE HELP just because there are SOME idiots out there that abuse it.

With THAT logic - we should shut down schools because there are some bullies that use it as an venue to hurt people. We should close emergency rooms all together because there are some drug addicts that will pretend to be hurt to get that one dose of morphine. We should also get rid of police men because there are some cops who abuse the power of authority they get with the badge.

I'm sorry but it IS time to GROW UP. Focus on thinking of what can be implimented that is helpful rather than trying to pick apart the crap that is absolutely pointless to worry about. There are going to be people who abuse different things in life because they can - we can only try our hardest to make sure the loopholes are tied up.

I can not understand for the life of me why anyone would be willing to let even 1... let alone 10 or even more people die and their families go bankrupt simply because there might be 1 other person who takes advantage of the system... it's beyond me how that's acceptable... they aren't dying for a reason (like if they sign up to go to war and end up killed in action) or going bankrupt cause they were irresponsible -- these people are dying because they are denied the care they need................. they die because they don't have money..... I can not for the life of me, understand, for ANY REASON... I don't care if the person is a bum or the pope... NO ONE should EVER die because they don't have MONEY........ let alone GO BANKRUPT because they want to keep living....... that's THE MOST unbelievable, heartless and seriously, outrageous thing that I can not fathom

Especially from people who are fighting so hard for the rights of a fetus!!!

I'm sorry Maleasha... your excuses aren't good enough for me.

Amie - posted on 11/08/2009

That's what the public option is! It's another insurance plan that you pay for, it's just through the government so it should be affordable. I don't have the actual numbers so I say should not will.

It's not a system set up for everyone to be covered. It's not a single payer system like Canada and many countries have. It is ONE more option out there that is more affordable so everyone can get coverage. The ones who are on welfare and are already covered by medicare won't change. I don't believe anyway, I'll look into it some more.

Maleasha - posted on 11/08/2009

Well, the current bill probably won't get passed by the senate. Thank goodness :)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_car...

We're already in a bumpy situation and if this bill, by some miracle, were to pass, it would only makes things so bad, that our economy would probably never recover.

I can understand helping people out who are working their butts off and still can't afford to buy health insurance, but I refuse to pay for someones health care that is just sitting at home expecting everyone else to pay their way through life. And there are plenty of them around. They put themselves in that situation and they should have to get themselves out of it, without anyone else's help.

Amie - posted on 11/08/2009

Maleasha, Why would they do that? Did you not read Jo's post a few up? ^ Of course it will be bumpy at first. Our own was bumpy at the beginning. It's just the first step.

Even at that there is no set rate being put in place for doctors or nurses. There compensation will be negotiated just as it is with private insurers.

We have heard about the republicans health care bill. It doesn't do the same thing. There is no pre-existing conditions clause, it doesn't cover near enough of the populace at large. The biggest concerns are not addressed in the republican bill.

Maleasha - posted on 11/08/2009

There are ways of fixing health care without putting us more in debt and without having the government run something they no absolutely nothing about. I'm willing to make sacrifices for something that will work, but I know that this bill is only going to make things worse and put us further into debt that we may never be able to recover from.

If this bill passes, good Doctors and Nurses will be leaving this profession to seek other careers, because they know how the government has ran medicaid and medicare and they don't like it. Not only will Doctors be leaving the profession, but people who wanted to go into it will decide not to once they realize the magnitude of this.

Republicans have other ideas of ways to fix the health care problem, but no one seems willing to take the time to listen. Instead they insist that this is an absolute emergency and that the only way it is going to work is if we just accept the bill that Pelosi is putting on the table.

Amie - posted on 11/08/2009

Quoting Christa:

Amie, no on the abortion. I am not ok with it ever, I believe only God gets to make the choice to take a life. I am willing to make a compromise when it comes to abortion legislation if it means less abortions over all. This doesn't do that it just takes my tax dollars to murder children and I will never be ok with that.

The progress that is being made is not in the best interest of the whole country. It is the left shoving their way down our throats. I don't want this to pass, because then they will HAVE to compromise and make legislation that is best for EVERYONE in the country not just the liberals. I want health care reform but NOT a bill that's only going to make things worse and leave even more debt to our children.

# Creates a public health insurance option and a national exchange for the uninsured and small businesses to purchase health insurance. The Secretary of Health and Human Services would negotiate rates with doctors and hospitals on reimbursement rates.

# The bill includes mandates for individuals to purchase and businesses to provide health insurance or pay a fine. Individual penalty is 2.5 percent of gross income unless they get a waiver. Businesses that don't offer insurance pay a fine equal to 8 percent of their payroll. Businesses with a payroll of less than $500,000 are exempt from the mandate.

# Insurance companies are prohibited from denying coverage based on a pre-existing condition. There are caps on deductibles and annual out of pocket spending is capped at $5000.

# Eliminates the Medicare doughnut hole over ten years.

# Allows individuals up to 27-years-old to stay on their parent’s health insurance

# Expands Medicaid from 100 percent to 150 percent of the Federal Poverty Level.

# Provides tax subsidies for individuals between 150 and 400 percent (sliding scale) of the Federal Poverty Level. There are also tax subsidies for small businesses.

# As amended, it prohibits federal funds from covering abortions. Women would need to purchase riders to insurance purchased on the exchange if they wanted that coverage.

# The bill taxes individuals making more than $500,000 and $1 million for couples. It is a 5.4 percent tax.

# Reduces overpayments to doctors who treat Medicare Advantage patients. It is estimated they are paid 14 percent more than doctors who treat Medicare patients.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/07/...

So what else is wrong? Besides the Public Option.

?? - posted on 11/08/2009

Well that's why I said, it's a starting point... just because the last President was a ding dong, the new President is brand spankin new and is starting it off - maybe the next President will get it on the right track... the point is, it's the beginning of a good change and people seem to be picking at the bones of pointless crap instead of REALLY trying to find that compromise - and I already said - it's BOTH SIDES that need to realize that there will NEVER be a happy medium, in EVERY instance.



Optimistically, this should be a point where both sides put down their boxing gloves and grow up. The world doesn't revolve around one or the other. So EVERYONE needs a reality check.



Realistically, this is the point where everyone hikes up their suspenders and plays the "You don't care about how *I* feel." crap that leads to a back and forth bickering bitchfest that leaves everyone sitting pouting like whiney little girls.



So maybe instead of focusing on the bad; this is the time to focus on the good. You said you don't want your money to go towards anything to do with killing babies - thats understandable. You can agree, that is not an issue that is going to go lightly and I'm sure you can be assured that it is an issue that will be argued till the end -- why focus on it? There's how many other parts of this bill that you could actually agree with and/or maybe find other parts that you can find a happy medium that would work?



There will always be parts of this that people are going to fight until our childrens, childrens, childrens, children are born... because it is a huge change - but at the end of the day it's a huge change that IS progress. It IS moving forward, even if it is hard at first, it will still make your country a better place in the whole - even if 11 cents of your hard earned money is going to something you don't FULLY agree with. Because there's 11 cents of EVERYONE'S hard earned money going to something they don't FULLY agree with.



(I use 11 cents just cause 11 is easy to type and I don't mean it as a literal number)

?? - posted on 11/08/2009

Is it that the left is 'shoving it down your throat'? Or that things may have to be 'a lil worse' before they get a lot better? That this generation and the next have to deal with a few hardships to better the future for their children and their childrens children.



Cause from that stand point -- we shouldn't give thanks to our ancestors for making the changes they made and making the sacrifices and taking the blows they took in order for us to have the rights and freedoms we have today. It's the same concept, it's doing 'our part today to better tomorrow'.



This is progress - it's a starting point to find a compromise that works for the majority. Not everyone will be happy, on either side. That's just something both sides will have to accept. And sometimes things have to start off crappy [going in debt a bit and things being a lil tight all around] in order for it to get better [health reform that allows everyone an option that doesn't leave anyone bankrupt or dead because they can't afford the care they need].

?? - posted on 11/08/2009

My reply in the post on DM -- copy & paste here;



It's nice that the American people are getting results and something is getting done!



Especially after months and months (even though the pres hasn't even been in office for a year) of American people demanding results from the President. All the bitching, complaining and whining about wanting SOMETHING done -- can now slow down and I hope we'll start to hear some more happy notes about things starting to progress! :D

Amie - posted on 11/08/2009

Quoting Christa:

Ok so my last comment was before I'd read anyone’s posts. :-)

I obviously am not happy about this passing and I'm not ok with my tax dollars killing any babies for any reason. If you want to murder your child you can use your own money, I'm not sure why that can't be understood by the other side. I do have hope because this only passed by 3 votes more then needed, which means it has no chance in hell of passing the senate. So it's really not as big of a deal as the left is going to try and make it. I will continue to focus on the bill working its way through the senate. That will be the one closest to what actually gets through both houses.

So in the cases where it is medically needed your not ok with? I guess that's fine, two less Americans instead of one. Makes loads of sense. /:)

It IS a big deal. Everyone bitches and moans about no progress being made. Then it's made and it's still not good enough.

Isobel - posted on 11/08/2009

Yes don't you remember Jenny...Obama is Hitler...the public option is going to create death camps and destroy capitalism ;P

Maleasha - posted on 11/08/2009

I've posted on this subject many times before, Jenny. I would like to see health care reform. I've stated that many times before, too, but I don't agree with the bill they are trying to pass right now. The #1 problem with this bill, 1.2 Trillion Dollars. The second problem, is the government ran public option.

Jenny - posted on 11/08/2009

What are you worried about exactly? Do you not want health care reform? Where's the problem?

Maleasha - posted on 11/08/2009

I'm very worried about this. I'm a little more optimistic that it won't pass the senate. It barely passed the house. And also, good job to the few democrats and the republicans that voted nay on the bill :D

Jenny - posted on 11/08/2009

That is fantastic news! So what's the next step and how long does it take?

Traci - posted on 11/08/2009

I say BOOOOOOOO! And I hope that our Senators have the sense enough not to follow...

Dana - posted on 11/08/2009

Yay!! Finally something is being done!

ME - posted on 11/08/2009

It sounds on the AM news here like abortion will NOT be covered by any federal funds (just like it isn't currently) UNLESS the woman's life is in danger by continuing the pregnancy, or she is a victim of a sexual crime. Since most reasonable Americans believe that these are acceptable reasons to allow abortion, I see no reason why this should be an issue at all! In addition, I believe that MILLIONS of uninsured Americans, whether that number is 42 mil, 35 mil, or 15 mil is horrifying; so, I am willing to pay a little more in taxes if necessary so that the lives of millions may be saved! Afterall, my tax dollars currently go to support several military programs that I don't support as well as wars that I don't support; it would be wonderful to have my hard earned money going to support a program that will SAVE lives instead of risk or end them!



I am VERY happy that the house bill passed so quickly. It is a great relief to me that our democratic house members have used their hearts as well as their minds, and shown their constituents and the rest of the nation that they care about our health and the survival of over 100 Americans a day! I am afraid, however, that the final bill (after the Senate waters it down) will be far less effectual and impressive. While I pray that I am wrong for the sake of the health of millions over the next 10 years, I will continue following this until the end...it is the MOST important thing that has happened in the US in decades!

Amie - posted on 11/07/2009

I'm a Canadian. So our CSPAN is not yours. Though I might have it, I don't know, I'll have to check all our channels. I only know a handful of them. LOL!

I was watching it this morning on the news about it possibly passing tonight but would likely stretch into early next week (monday-tuesday). I was surprised and delighted to hear it had passed so quickly.

Truth be told the abortion issue I don't think is a huge one. I understand, on the moral level, why some would be opposed to it. I can even understand on the financial level why others are opposed to it. Here in Canada our UHC covers it and it's not real big concern to me either way. I'm pro-choice though so I do believe that plays into it.

Regardless of the actual numbers any citizen not covered should be cause for concern. Everyone has a right to affordable health care. The public option should give them that.

I'll look into it some more in the morning though. I only did a quick cursory glance earlier and am heading to bed shortly. I'll be back with more thoughts on the morrow!

Stephanie - posted on 11/07/2009

First, I'd like to give props to another Mom following politics even on a Saturday night! I love CSPAN even though I've been banished to another room to watch it:) I've been watching the arguments back and forth tonight and am currently watching the debate on the Republican Substitute Bill. McDermott (D) from Seattle, Washington just mentioned the oft quoted "42 million uninsured." I'd like to take this time to voice by objection to this number. It includes people in this country illegally, people who CHOOSE to not have insurance, people who qualify for government progams, and medicare undercount...so on and so forth (see CBO for clarification and exact numbers.) All told there are 10-15 million million (a far cry from the alarmist number of 42 million) who truly need insurance. If we could be honest and use an accurate number as our premise, perhaps we could begin to really address the healthcare issues facing our nation.



Aside from my issue with the "convenient" numbers being used (by both sides, I know) to promote their cause. I have serious issues with the abortion issue. More to come...bedtime!