Illegal Immigration

Becki - posted on 05/26/2010 ( 100 moms have responded )

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Do you think it is time to have two separate illegal immigration laws; one for the Mexicans and one for all others? My opinion is that all illegal immigrants be treated the same according to laws and the laws be made with no "specific" Illegal Immigrant in mind, such as Mexican, for the language in the Illegal Immigration laws. If you do not start apply the law equally and fairly across all illegal immigrants; are we going to profile based on ethnicity?



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/ter..."





facebook post i made last week prior to this latest development

re:

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/inde... pt 1

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438712/inde... pt 2

"What do you think about Immigration Control now? Should we allow Immigration for illegal Mexicans and have separate illegal immigrant legislation for all others? How do we implement? If they look Mexican they get a pass? Come on people...isn't that another type of racial profiling?

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Kelly - posted on 05/29/2010

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Awwww I knew that would get your attention :-) Of course that isn't a viable, good or humane option, but in my opinion, having open borders is just as ridiculous. (Point made?)

Since you asked Jo, I know I have posted in abortion threads before, but to refresh your memory I am pro-choice. I believe life starts at conception, and I would never murder my own baby, but if you want to kill yours (in general) who am I to stop you?

Back to topic, legalizing MJ isn't going to do squat. I know Jenny for one thinks ALL drugs should be legal, but the majority of people don't. Nearly all of the heroin produced in Mexico is for distribution in the US, and Mexico is also the main corridor for cocaine.
http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_fa...

Mary Elizabeth, while you may not take issue with your kids being able to buy and smoke a joint, I would imagine you might not want them to be able to shoot up or snort coke and heroin in an internet cafe would you? Yes, I realize that if they want it bad enough they could get it, but should we really just make it that much easier?

Employers who are caught hiring illegals are already fined, and it is on a "per person" basis. It is a felony, and on top of fines, they can have property seized and serve time in prison.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pa...

Maybe if the Feds actually enforced the laws we currently have, we could make a better observation on whether they work or not.

The border does need to be secured before we can "fix" the illegal problem. While I don't seriously propose land mines, (although it was fun thinking up that scenario knowing the reaction I would get) we do need to complete the fence, and have National Guard troops helping Border Patrol. And we need more than 1200 Guardsmen sent. That is like trying to plug a leak in a dam with juicy fruit. And no, I don't support mass slaughter, but with the drug cartels and coyotes, there will be shots fired. We need to stand behind our Border Patrol agents and Guardsmen, and not crucify them for doing their jobs.

As far as the Northern Border, I don't believe the Canadian Government is as inept and corrupt as the Mexican Government is, (please correct me if I am wrong) and I don't believe we are seeing the numbers coming from Canada that we do in the South. And by the way, it's not just Mexicans coming over illegally. In 2006, the Government estimated that 31% of the people coming across the Mexican border illegally were NOT Mexican. I'm sure that number has increased over the last few years.

Kelly - posted on 05/29/2010

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I am confused........ Some of you guys are so far in left field. How exactly do you propose our economy support limitless amounts of people? How many people do you think America can sustain? And seriously, you guys do know where tax money comes from right? It's not delivered by Santa, and the Tooth Fairy doesn't leave it under Obama's pillow at night. Just how much do you think you can tax before people get absolutely fed up? It is not my duty to make sure every freaking illegal gets a college education. As far as just getting more money from all those "rich" people, that well is going to run dry. Sooner rather than later if we keep trying to rape them.

My border solution isn't going to be popular with you, but it would get the job done. I say we secure our border the way N. Korea has. We land mine every foot. Then we have towers, and border patrol, minute men, whoever wants the job can sit in towers and pick people off with sniper rifles. No interrogations, no questions. If you are trying to cross and it's not a designated border crossing, we shoot first and ask questions later. I suspect it wouldn't be very easy to smuggle drugs up and guns down. Of course we would see some funneling to Florida and the coasts, but we would have subs all along our coastlines that torpedo any unidentified and unauthorized boat. Fighter pilots need to constantly train, so they can fly out of El Toro, Kingsville, Pensacola, etc. and shoot down any unidentified aircraft. People might stop and think twice about an illegal crossing.

As far as those that are already here, it is pretty impossible to deport all of them. We would have to come up with some type of amnesty plan, where they pay a fine, and get legal work permits as long as they pass a background check. The thing is, we can't do that until our borders are secure. Otherwise, in another 5 to 10 years, we will be right back in this same situation.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/02/2010

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Diane? Do you want a ladder, because I don't want you to strain yourself reaching......

"so much for equality" .....let me ask you, Diane, have you not had ample and equal opportunity to post here? So have we all.

That's as equal as it gets in an online debate forum. No one has deleted any of your posts, no one has treated you any differently than you have treated them.

Pretty equal from where I sit.



I said that to YOU she's 'hopping in' to conversations - to those of us that have been in this community longer, she's not. We're in multiple communities (or were) together, as are a lot of the other women in this community members of multiple communities. We know a bit more about each other than what can be garnered from a strictly politically based debate community. It's not the only one on CoM, it's just the one you come into to 'blow off steam'. ;)



You called me 'mean spirited' - and then you make snide comments about Jo's leaving, her 'inability to debate the issue' being the reason for her leaving...."see spot run' .....snide little digs at people to show your self-perceived superiority.

You made digs at me because of an avatar. That you've formed an opinion of me because of a funny cartoon on my page - I guarantee you that you have formed the wrong opinion, but I'm sure you'll figure that out as you're here a little longer.....You said that I "always use the race card" when discussing issues (I'd like an example of that, actually because the only time I've ever mentioned a race is when I KNEW you thought I was hispanic and you were judging me by my last name and lack of photo for you to view. My last name is Samoan (Samoan ethnicity / Hawaiian born husband from 2 legal parents, in case you're wondering)

You condescend to people, you're usually calling someone ignorant if they don't agree with you; You've posted to members of another community that you come here to 'blow off steam', and that makes it appear as if you're simply coming here to be antagonistic - so you're kind of hard to 'take' seriously.....at least, for me.

I hope that clears things up for you and doesn't sound too 'mean-spirited'.

Tanya - posted on 06/02/2010

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Diane-". And if you have problems in your state then fight to find the answers and solve them."
I believe that is what I said to you.
So why haven't you joined the national guard yet?

[deleted account]

Diane, you obviously missed my little joke when I commented that we have plenty of Mexicans here. My mistake, thought you would enjoy a laugh.

Firstly a couple of comments about the link you have provided

1. It’s dated 2000 – ten years ago. We’ve had a change of government since then.
2. There was no name at the end of this article – who wrote it? Commentators in this magazine give their own views and don’t claim to be representative.

No, I’ve never claimed Australia has open borders – I wish we did. Most of the refugees who come to Australia are humanitarian refugees, fleeing persecution and injustice. They generally have no documents BECAUSE they’re refugees. They are generally housed in “detention centres” for “processing” and it takes a long time (years, in many cases) for officialdom to determine whether in fact they ARE refugees and will be “allowed” into society under conditions. I’ve always been opposed to Australia’s lack of humanity with regard to these people who come to us for assistance.
That’s a very different situation from America’s problems with illegal immigrants, who are not regarded as refugees, as far as I can gather. I’ve been doing some reading, and I found this:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Illegal-Immigr... by James William Smith, 2007
Points that stood out for me:
1. Poverty in Mexico:
2. U.S. Companies Looking for Increasing Profit:
3. Hispanic Vote is Crucial in Future Elections:
4. Lack of Law Enforcement by the U.S. Government of Existing Immigration Laws and Border Security:
Smith‘s conclusion is “Finally, illegal immigrants and the American people are both victims here. The U.S. government needs to enforce the laws in place and the country needs a coherent immigration policy. Selective enforcement of laws is divisive and confusing. Perhaps, Pastor Robin Hoover of Humane Borders put it best when he said: "Our nation virtually puts two signs on its borders: "Help Wanted: Inquire Within" and "Do Not Trespass."
I also noted this, from Amnesty International:
http://veracitystew.com/2010/04/29/amnes...
An excerpt: “Despite protestations by Mexican President Felipe Calderon over the recently signed anti-immigrant bill in Arizona, a report released by Amnesty International blames Mexico for the rape, kidnapping, abuse, and extortion of tens of thousands of illegal immigrants every year. The majority are Central Americans from Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Honduras making the long trek across Mexico to the United States, a journey that Amnesty International calls “one of the most dangerous in the world.”
So I can see the size of the problem. The first article I cited is just a quick look into the causes of the problem and doesn’t pretend to give a solution, and that’s really where the solution should come from, but I don’t see that the US can do much about that, though it could have some input by toughening up the laws regarding hiring illegal immigrants, and finding those who provide forged paperwork. Although I’m a proponent of open borders, a prerequisite of that ideal is co-operation and agreement between governments, which in this situation doesn’t seem likely right now, as the article from Amnesty International shows.
So, how to help? As you pointed out, Australia has a huge landmass“, but just having a huge land mass doesn’t mean that land could necessarily support huge numbers of people. Most of Australia is desert: “The great majority of the land mass of Australia is either arid or semi-arid, there is very little surface water, the rain fall is low and there are very few rivers that actually run other than immediately after heavy rain. Some of the larger deserts are the Great Victoria Desert, the Gibson Desert, the Tanami Desert, the Great Sandy Desert, the Little Sandy Desert, Sturt Stony Desert, the Simpson Desert. That accounts for most of the west of the continent, nearly two-thirds. The most habitable areas are the coastal regions, especially for large urban populations.”
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_land_area...
But given that our scientists and geologists are always working on trying to make our continent more habitable, we might be able to lend a hand some years down the track. So that’s an option for the future (bear in mind that this is me speaking, not the government! ) But it wouldn’t be much good in the immediate future!
As you’ve mentioned, if US employers would stop employing Mexicans it would lessen the attraction – if they knew they couldn’t get a job they might be less willing to risk it. But obviously Mexico’s government needs big changes – more concern for its people, less greed, more work on infrastructure etc etc. Shutting borders wouldn’t help much as these are desperate people, trying to escape extreme poverty, disastrous living conditions and a corrupt government. It’s probably hugely expensive to get passports etc. What does the US embassy in Mexico have to say? Is the US involved in any humanitarian projects in Mexico?

According to this website http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.h..., (US Department of State, 2010)
the US and Mexico have had a stable relationship and have co-operated for many years on many issues, so it seems to me that there is a basis for further negotiation on your border problems. I think this has got to be the way to go. And please remember that they’re not just “illegal immigrants” they are people, with families, fears, needs.

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Elishia - posted on 01/15/2013

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The process of applying to be. A citizen is over bearing can you name all the presidents dates of wars reasons for fighting generals of past wars dates of them 90% of Americans can't name 20 presidents or 5 dates and names of wars here on America but we got an app for that

Elishia - posted on 01/15/2013

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Omg I can't believe the sterotype comments on here not all immigrants are criminals or rapist/terrorist that's just crazy these people come here for a better life because its too hard In Mexico. Its corrupt government has made it impossible to support their families. The drug lords and gangs killing ur loved ones these are the reasons.they come for life. A few bad apples spoil the whole batch.

Elishia - posted on 01/15/2013

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Its very hard being a wife of am illegal immigrate always worried never knowing if today is the day. He came to US when he was 17 NOWis 39 US is all he knows but now he has been deported after an car accident. He worked hard paid the bills never was I ever on any assistance and still was denied the right to be here. Once upon a time this country was all immigrants now we are descendents of immigrates unless u are an Indian.

La - posted on 06/08/2010

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People are generally upset at Mexican illegal immigrants because they are grossly catered to while other legal or illegal immigrants seem to have to jump through hoops without any consideration or accomodation given to them.

Pamela - posted on 06/05/2010

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I don't think anyone can argue that illegal immigration is not an issue (and as far as I've read here, no one has made that argument). And it certainly is a pressing one at that. Yes there should be a comprehensive reform of our federal immigration bill and I don't think anyone can argue with that either. However, I think the worst thing we can do is demonize and dehumanize those coming in illegally. Frankly, it concerns me that we listen to the media and the politicians (seeking reelection) who keep up continual bombastic rhetoric regarding this issue. I'm not sure this is the most pressing issue facing our country right now (and a number of you may, I understand, disagree with me here). But that aside, the question we should probably start with is, "Why are folks coming across the border illegally?" Because they, like everyone else, want a better life for themselves and their children. They risk pirate coyotes and the desert because many of them are desperate and see the possibility for a better way of life in the U.S. Rather than having discussions promoting razor wire, land mines and sniper shots, it might be more fruitful to look at solutions that allow people to retain their humanity and dignity. What bothers me is why are we going after a group of individuals already living on the margins of our society, rather than the companies who hire them and pay them ridiculously low wages? Perhaps the real illegals are those companies? Just saying.

Janessa - posted on 06/05/2010

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hey i am new here and i am from canada. I think if the government in america is going to pass laws about illegals immigrants everyone shoudl be treated the same including the CUBIANS period. It is not far their get a free pass well everyone gets to suffer. As someone that used to live in Haiti as a child and i hear about many haitians trying to get to america but are sent back and CUBIANS do it all the time and there get to stay unfair period. If the government is going to put laws into place there should follow the laws and apply it to everyone from every country. If people from Cuba get to stay then everyone in a poor country should pass for a communist country and then come to america and get a free pass. Sinced i was born in a poor country if i had to choose to live in Cuba or Haiti i would pick Cuba no questions asked. I have no idea why everyone is getting all fired up the government is winning every time there can split people for evil. The arizona border problem is the governments agenda. Have any of you heard about the new world order? If you have you know what i am talking about. When bush was in office he signed the open border agreement with canada,america and mexico into place to open the borders. Now obama is in office he is going to reinforced what bush signed into law. Those three nations will have the same currency and it is not just those three countries. Have you all wondered what is happening in Greece? well that is part of the new world order. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?c...



Many of you might see me as crazy but i have done my research and read about the new world order it is coming we as people must stand together.

When we people vote our vote does not really count. The hype is all "their" need to get the person who there want in office. People are getting mad at each other for what? so those wealthy people of the world can get there agenda out faster. In the end when it is all and done with we will have nothing to fight for. There is not a repbulican. liberal, indepent ect at all we are being lied to every day people. Obama is part of the new world order even if a republican won he would also be a puppet just like bush clinton, bush senior and so on. Have any of your wondered one majority of presidents in american are always related to each other and some are even related to the queen of england. Think about it people we are being bullied and lied to. Just to let you all know the media is made to put fears in us people and all the news and cable companys are owned by the wealthy people who are in the new world agenda. Do your own research and make up your mind and one last point majority have any of you heard about the masons? majority of the presidents that runned american are masons. I have read about them and my boyfriend has family members on it and he actually joined it is his business not my but i know about them.



http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/har...

Rosie - posted on 06/04/2010

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first whoever marked kat's post as nice has issues. second, why would they leave their own country you ask? probably cause of poverty. while there are parts of mexico that are wealthy, most of the rural population is not and they are desperately poor. it seems as if the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor-hhhmmmm, kindof sounds familiar, except in the case of mexico the poor stay DESPERATELY poor.

while i do agree with the law in arizona, it's peoples attitudes like yours about illegals that make the rest of us sane people look bad. i think we need to work on all avenues of this problem, and blowing people up or setting them on fire doesn't really solve anything. it's completely inhuman of you to suggest that. if you really want to talk about people who abuse the system why don't you bitch about all the polygamists out there in colorado city, arizona? did you know that one family there, a man named tom green and all of his descendents have cost the state of arizona well over a million dollars in welfare from 1985-1999? this one city costs taxpayers 6 million a year in federal funding. 33% of the towns residents receive food stamps compared to the state average of 4.7%. the residents of colorado city receive 8 dollars in government services for every dollar they pay in taxes, by comparison the rest of the residents in mohave county receive just over a dollar in services per tax dollar paid. should we blow them all up as well? or is it because they're citizens that they get a free pass on your wrath?

LaCi - posted on 06/04/2010

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Wow. Seriously? Medicaid is run by the state and the VAST majority of state taxes are not your state income tax, it's sales tax- which everyone pays legal or not.

Secondly, no one gets in AUTOMATICALLY, which is precisely why florida has people sneaking in from the islands-including CUBA- on shoddy little rafts or smuggled in by violent conmen who demand money from their family members before they will release them or kill them if they don't pay.

You really need to jump back into reality. I'm not even addressing anything else there. I'm sure the little I did address is pointless, why bother with more.

Kat - posted on 06/04/2010

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youd think with all the jobs going to Mexico, theyd wanna stay there. Hershey, Polaris, not to mention tons of car parts factories and such. why would they wanna come here if all the businesses are going there? i know most of them work on the farms (at least here where i live, cant say about anywhere else), but why would you wanna work for a farmer in a humid field of tobacco or soybeans when you can work in a factory back home? i just DONT know why they come here. i know going through proper immigration status is costly, but so is paying a coyote to bring you across the border (if they dont just leave you in the middle of the desert for dead and steal your money).

and a lot of these people are criminals before they even commit the crime of coming here illegally. they DO get free education and free healthcare, while we pick up the tab. they come to Indiana and can get on Medicaid, without even paying the taxes for it, because they get paid cash at their farm jobs. so they get on welfare and food stamps and medicaid since they have no income (other than the big wad of $100s in their pocket -- and yes, ive seen this myself. yesterday i was standing behind a Mexican. he took out a big wad of $100s to pay for a big flatscreen tv for thousands of dollars, then whipped out the foodstamp card for the food for his 10 member family).

and while i'd love land mines along the border, i wouldnt want any Americans to accidentally trip them. the illegals can get blown to bits for all i care. a dead illegal can just be buried in the desert or thrown to the vultures (how's that for recycling, Mr Obama and Mr Gore?). but maybe we can just build a moat (yes i know the Rio Grande is there too) and fill it with something flammable and set it ablaze. tell them if they can get across without being burnt to a crisp they can stay in the US. or build a more effective fence. the barb wire thing aint cutting it.

and remember, the Mexicans and Central/South Americans arent refugees like the Cubans, and the Puerto Ricans are semi-citizens or commenwealthians or whatever you call it. the Cubans automatically get asylum/amnesty. the Mexicans arent escaping anything in Mexico. oh boo-hoo, corrupt government. does that mean we can all escape to Canada and claim refugee status from a corrupt government? probably not. but who'd wanna go to Canada anyway? Canadians are nice, but it's too cold there for me. :)

and to the president of Mexico, stay out of our business. seriously. and why is Obama cowtowing to this idiot? the Mexican government publishes pamphlets for their people to show the best routes into the US illegally, where the least amounts of border guards are, tips on how to evade border guards, what to bring so you wont die in the desert, and how to blend in once you get here illegally.

Diane - posted on 06/03/2010

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”If the love within your mind is lost and you see other beings as enemies, then no matter how much knowledge or education or material comfort you have, only suffering and confusion will ensue.” Dali Lama

And there is a saying that goes………”keep your friends close your enemies close.”

We can not ignore the fact that there are bad people in this world, who have no morals and who do not care if they hurt people or not. In order to survive there must be rules, laws that protect individuals a society at large. A house can’t stand without walls, and a structure. With out it, it will collapse and fall.
This world is made up of many races, cultures and because of that each has a different idea of what morality means and how they want to live. We must have open borders to protect OUR way of life and what we as a nation believe is right. Do you have a right to allow who you want inside your house? We as a nation have the right to decide who should come in. To allow open borders is a license for anarchy on every level……socially, political and especially criminal.

Jenny - posted on 06/03/2010

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That's a great quote. I do believe our current way of running things is hitting a brick wall. If we do not start working together for a common goal and stop putting so much importance on man made imaginary lines we may as well just off ourselves now. It will NEVER get better if we maintain course. We must start to think of unique solutions and put our wonderful imagination to work for some good in this world.

[deleted account]

Diane, do you actually read my posts, or just go through picking out bits you can have a go at?

• I don’t think the example of E-Verify illustrates co-operation and agreement between governments. This program is run by the US Department of Homeland Security and I can’t find a reference that suggests the Mexican government co-operated in its formulation.

• 2 Yes, I know Arizona is mostly desert. I emphasized that Australia is mostly desert in response to your blithe suggestion that as Australia has such a huge land mass it could take some Mexican migrants.

• I know drug barons are not nice people, Diane – do you think I live in fairyland or somewhere? There are plenty of drug cartels here in Australia and everywhere else in the world.

• The question about US humanitarian projects was a rhetorical one. I was trying to emphasize the humanitarian and sociological nature of this problem, as well the legal aspect. Sorry, too subtle for you, obviously.

• I know how corrupt the Mexican government is. I commented on this in my last post.

• 6 Again, I reiterate, these people are human beings. The question you should be asking is, why are they breaking the laws? Why are they so desperate to get away from their country? Yes, the law is important, but so is looking after our fellow human beings. What I’m hoping is that everyone will ask questions about people’s needs before dismissing them all as criminals.

But I don’t live in Arizona, so why should my opinion be taken seriously?

As the Dalai Lama puts it:”If the love within your mind is lost and you see other beings as enemies, then no matter how much knowledge or education or material comfort you have, only suffering and confusion will ensue.”

Rosie - posted on 06/02/2010

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ok seriously. i'm still a tad bit confused. you asked a couple posts down, what i propose to do about the illegals in arizona. i already told you i agree with you, but to appease you i repeated myself, and threw in there that i don't agree with shooting people in guard towers like it was suggested (apparantly jokingly, by kelly). show me where I said you suggested that.

this has gotten ridiculous. all that is happening is you picking arguments when there is none to be had since i agree with you on this issue, and throwing insults at people who aren't even here anymore to defend themselves. why must you make a moutain out of a molehill every freaking time?

Diane - posted on 06/02/2010

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So you do not treat or regard people as equal here? LOL
Important comes with what............how long you have been here and how many great comments ya get?

So much for equality....

I could care less how long she has been here. She came in added nothing and then said in graphic words that she had better things to do, then joked about abortion.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/02/2010

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....she was a member of the community long before you were, Diane, so it only seems like 'hopping in' to you.
=)

Diane - posted on 06/02/2010

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She comes in and hops in the conversation, adds nothing and then says to provoke,"Enjoy your wacko world of hate, ignoring the bits that make sense and dead babies"

Yea?????? And you think I will not address that? lol

~Jennifer - posted on 06/02/2010

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"Of course she did not leave because of me. She left because she could not answer or debate this issue."



Diane, not that it's ANY of your business, but she 'left' because she just bought a house, is doing renovations and moving her family. Her assumed 'inability' to debate this issue had nothing to do with it. (she has left CoM all together, not just this community)

(.......you might need some Windex on your crystal ball, because your visions are a tad cloudy.)

So, now that you have an explanation, you can get back to knowing everything, as usual.

=)

Diane - posted on 06/02/2010

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Kathi said, “i'm confused diane. i agree with the bill in arizona. i don't however agree with having people in guard towers shooting willy nilly at every tom dick or harry that tries to come here. landmining is a tad harsh as well don't you think?”

I never suggested land mines my dear. Post where I said it.
The border patrol should shoot to kill if they feel threatened or are attacked. Drug cartels are not boy scouts…..ya know.
Of course she did not leave because of me. She left because she could not answer or debate this issue. Anyone who would joke about dead babies in the way she put it, is a sad person.

Tanya said, “The country is bad everywhere. I am so sick of you saying that we don't understand you problem. We get it we just have our own problems to worry about.”

While you read about our problems you do not live here. And yes the country is bad everywhere and will be worse if we do not secure the BORDERS. And if you have problems in your state then fight to find the answers and solve them.

Kathy thanks for the information. I would like to address just a few of the points you make.

1.“co-operation and agreement between governments,”

We do this in Arizona with E-verify and the police have really cracked down on this. Not many businesses including landscape and restaurants hire them, not unless they want a big fine. They can be shut down.

2.“Most of Australia is desert:”

And so is Arizona

3. “US employers would stop employing Mexicans it would lessen the attraction”

While there a people who want a better life, there are also a great number of illegal’s who want to come over to harm, to kill, to rape, to kidnap. Phoenix has the second highest kidnapping rate in the world. Mexico City is the first. Drug cartels…….are not nice people Kathy. And Mexicans are not the only people coming across. Open borders would be suicide. And not many countries in the world have open borders, but require documentation to be in the country.

4.“Is the US involved in any humanitarian projects in Mexico?”

I won’t dignify this one with an answer. The question should be, how many countries around the world are involved in humanitarian projects in Mexico. We are a giving country and we help countries who need it, even those that hate and want to harm us. We are usually the first country to show up in a catastrophe.

5.“the US and Mexico have had a stable relationship and have co-operated for many years on many issues,”

I know people even Democrats who are outraged that Obama allowed Calderon to stand up in Washington and belittle and bash the people in Arizona, especially when Mexican laws are so much tougher than ours. This was outrageous. So the people in my state do not think very fondly of him. He is a joke and the president of country that is corrupt to the bone. The government even hands out literature to people who want to sneak into the country.

6.“Remember that they’re not just “illegal immigrants” they are people, with families, fears, needs.”

Yes they are people, human beings WHO ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND WANT TO BE REWARDED FOR IT, AT THE ARIZONA TAXPAYERS EXPENSE. If I am help to the laws in my state and country, WHY SHOULDN’T THEY BE? You talk about equality……how is allowing some to break the law and some not, fair? I work hard, pay taxes and follow the law. I can’t who I can. I belong to a church that is big in missions. We support fifteen missionary families around the world who are doing humanitarian world. Our church goes to, well used to go to Mexico to build schools and play yards and parks, they take clothes and food and set up food banks. All that is stopping because you do not want to be seen in Mexico with Arizona license plates…or have them know we are from Arizona.

Tanya - posted on 05/31/2010

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I can't believe you keep talk about our country doesn't have any money burt you think your state should be so special to get some.
Arizona does not have the highest crime rate or unemployment rate. Your state isn't last in education. School are on the verge of bankruptcy everywhere in this country.

Ever heard of the corridor of shame?
http://corridorofshame.com/
Its about how awful schools are in SC.

The doctors can't afford the mal-practice insurance in this state so we have had a lot of them leave. I live in a pretty big town and we don't have a heart or brain surgeon in any of the 3 hospitals here. You have to drive two hours to get to one because our left.

The country is bad everywhere. I am so sick of you saying that we don't understand you problem. We get it we just have our own problems to worry about.

ME - posted on 05/31/2010

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Wow! Diane, are you always this self-obsessed? You think Jo closed her acct here because of you, or her inability to argue with you..lol...that's cute...

Rosie - posted on 05/31/2010

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i'm confused diane. i agree with the bill in arizona. i don't however agree with having people in guard towers shooting willy nilly at every tom dick or harry that tries to come here. landmining is a tad harsh as well don't you think?

?? - posted on 05/30/2010

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And I will repeat;


Is it going to happen? No. Is it a lot more sensible, realistic and humane than the opposite extreme of slaughtering human beings? Yes.



This will be my last post cause I'm closing my account on COM, I gots me some bigger and better (not to mention, nicer and friendlier) things to do! :D

Enjoy your wacko world of hate, ignoring the bits that make sense and dead babies, Diane !

Diane - posted on 05/30/2010

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This you said made me laugh Krista, “That's because we don't want to give up our healthcare.”

So no one from Canada comes to the US for health care? Just where did Danny Williams go for his healthcare?

And what about these articles?

http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/09/03/c...

Canada Cuts Deal With Michigan For Faster Health Care Services
http://politicalvindication.com/?p=5902

Krista said,”Hey...that might be the ticket...implement Canada's healthcare system in Mexico. Then the Mexicans will stay put because they won't want to risk getting a $1500 bill for getting an ingrown toenail removed!”

No they need to go to Canada because they are a kind nation and want to help. They have free health care and land mass. Would work out great I think don’t you?

Sorry you walked right into this one…….”In the natural world, without borders, where creatures live amongst each other - she is in the wrong. The snake isn't doing anything it, otherwise, naturally wouldn't do. She is the one setting out to destroy it's habitat and she is the one that is imposing herself on the snake's world. “


In the natural world, where human beings live amongst each other…..the unborn is not doing anything wrong…….out to be destroyed in the safe quiet womb of its mother. Who is imposing on the unborns world?

You probably no doubt are a Peter Singer lover am I right?
“I think the same mentality, logically, can be applied to the "open the borders" argument. Borders are 'imaginary' and they are in place to 'keep something out' that otherwise has every right to be in that area. Borders are unnatural.”

Imaginary….then if you own a home and you have boundaries or lot lines around what you own, are they imaginary as well? Borders are in place to designate what someone owns.
Arizona belongs to the United States. I own my home and the land it sits on. If I do not want you to come onto my property then you can’t by law. Countries all over the world have borders, why should we be any different? There is nothing wrong with keeping things out of a space. When I go and pray in front of Planned Parenthoods we by law have to stay so far away. They tell us we can’t invade their space. And we stay where the law tells us to stay.

Why do people who are not citizens have the right to be in the United States without documentation? This is the law. Are you suggesting that people break the law?

“It is NATURAL for humans to do what they have to do to survive. Period. If that is not possible in Mexico, then it is NATURAL for them to go somewhere else. YES they SHOULD do it legally, obviously that's not working out so well.

Eliminating the border, giving those "illegal aliens" equal legal opportunity to work and make a proper life, buying land, paying taxes, etc is [realistically] more plausible and productive than what Kelly suggested by lining up the rifles and laying down the land mines.”

Yes, I agree with this….but American citizens have to do what they have to do to survive. And we can’t take on the entire global population that want to come here. Mexicans are not the only people here illegally. My solution would work. Mexico has over 111.000.000 people. Divide those what want a better life somewhere else ( not dividing families) and take them to various countries around the world. Australia and Canada just to name a few have large land masses. Then America would not have to tote the load all by itself.

Kathy you said no thanks you do not want any more Mexicans. May I ask why? You have a large land mass in your country and could easily take millions more. I am not saying this to be sarcastic I mean it. You could take more, why not?
Also you need a valid Visa if you wish to travel or immigrate to Australia, so you do not have open borders. Curious as to whether you think that your government is wrong by requiring people to have documentation to enter.

http://www.nationalobserver.net/2000_sum...

What I noticed in this article is that Australia want to prevent them from entering, they want to keep them out and they dont want to be singled out as a place that is easy to get into. They should be intercepted by boats….humanitarian efforts should be afforded them but that they should return to their country of origin. The article says that all this should be done for Australia’s security.

“I do agree with you on the fine issue. I (like you) think they should be hit with the max right out of the gate. Businesses that seek out illegals and knowingly hire them know damn well they are breaking the law. In my opinion they should be shut down.”

I agree and as I said before because of E-Verify this has made a big impact in Arizona. But for those who think that they should be allowed to come over, that we have no right to stop them, why then should businesses be stopped from hiring them. Where else will they find work? They take jobs that no American will take, right? So why penalize businesses?

JS said, “Opening the borders simply means to allow people to come into our countries, legally, so that they can earn a living and provide for themselves and their families. Something they were unable to do in Mexico. If they are unable to achieve that 'goal' in the USA, they can try Canada.”

What do you not get…..how many millions more Mexicans, and other foreigner’s can we as a country take? Why is it fair that they move right in taking jobs, getting free medical, etc……when most people have been paying into the system their entire lives. That is not fair.

Diane - posted on 05/30/2010

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I mean “ship” as in TRANSPORT.

Kelly I really love your posts and I am certainly glad you are here.

Kelly you said…“It is not my duty to make sure every freaking illegal gets a college education. As far as just getting more money from all those "rich" people, that well is going to run dry. Sooner rather than later if we keep trying to rape them.’”

Bravo.

”We land mine every foot. Then we have towers, and border patrol, minute men, whoever wants the job can sit in towers and pick people off with sniper rifles. No interrogations, no questions. If you are trying to cross and it's not a designated border crossing, we shoot first and ask questions later. I suspect it wouldn't be very easy to smuggle drugs up and guns down. ‘

Maybe not to this extreme but maybe we should follow the lead of other countries in the world WHO DO NOT PUT UP WITH ILLEGALS, MEXICO IS ONE OF THEM, their laws are tougher than ours.

JS said, “I guess the idea of slaughtering humans could be a release... IF YOU'RE CRAZY.”

OMgosh, are you talking about those who are pro-choice here?
LOL

And you call Kelly a joke..pleazee…… And honey……Sadam would still be ALIVE IF BUSH HAD NOT TAKEN HIM OUT. I thought liberals thought we were wrong to take him out?

Mary…we have already been fining people who hire them in Arizona. E-Verify has done a good job to stop them from doing this. But we still need to send them home. We are only three hours from the border. When we catch them they need to go back to their families. They need to work in their own country to make it better.

Legalizing marijuana? Do you think that this is the only drug of choice, the only drug that comes over the border? Should we legalize all drugs? And do you think drugs are the only crimes committed by illegals?

You liberals keep talking about we the people blowing THEM UP. What about those that are here TO BLOW US UP? You do not see this because you do not live in a border state, so it’s really not a pressing issue to you, but it is for us.

We need to secure the border and Washington needs to send the money and manpower to do it. But can you image if Obama tried to do that now, with elections coming up in November? He will not do one thing to help us, because he needs every vote he can get.

I had a great suggestion to this problem but no one has addressed it. Couldn’t Canada, Australia and other countries take Mexican illegal’s to their countries?

Kati………….they are shooting us. What would you have us do in Arizona?

Kelly said, “I believe life starts at conception, and I would never murder my own baby, but if you want to kill yours (in general) who am I to stop you?”

While we agree on the law in Arizona we do not agree on abortion. But at least you have the guts to call it like it really is. You used murder and you used kill, two terms pro-choicers will not use to describe abortion. You admit it…you see nothing wrong with murdering unborn babies and at least you’re honest.

I also appreciate that you provide links to the facts you post.
I am surprised that based on your abortion stance that you would not be for legalizing all drugs. If someone has the right to kill and murder, why shouldn’t they have the right to do drugs?

Tanya - posted on 05/30/2010

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Regular citizen could be trained.
I just don't think that anyone is this country really has the right to judge.
We stole this land.

Maleasha - posted on 05/30/2010

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I heard an interesting idea from a friend on another site; what about a sliding scale for people wanting to immigrate to America? Depending on the country your coming from and your financial status, would determine the amount you pay to become a legal citizen.

I'm all for people immigrating here. I think that the mixture of cultures is what makes America so wonderful. I do also think we have a major problem with illegal immigration and it needs to be controled. We need to look at our current immigration laws and see where they need to be fixed and then start enforcing those laws.

I'm a little late in joining the discussion, so bear with me as I address some of the responses from earlier in the conversation.

Tanya Silvey- I want to see the boarder secured, but I would never suggest any regular US citizen to go down and patrol the boarder. It takes a trained professional to be able to handle the situations that arise on the boarder. It is a dangerous place, and if not properly trained, you won't last very long there.

I don't think opening any boarder could solve our problems, it would only create a harsher enviroment, as different countries and people have different views on how things should be run. Just a scenario, but I personally wouldn't want to live under the rule of the Canadian government, just as I'm pretty sure Jennie wouldn't want to live under the rule of the US government. If we were to open our boarders, we would have to try to find some common ground and I really don't see that happening, as most of us are stuck on our ways.

ME - posted on 05/30/2010

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Yeah...I have to agree with Krista...not in favor of landmines for any reason...I taught students in CO who had come into the country illegally as small children...I'm not a fan of blowing up toddlers...really, I'm not a fan of blowing anyone up...but definitely not the toddlers...

LaCi - posted on 05/30/2010

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If I pop out a kid while visiting relatives in canada, is the kid canadian? Just wondering.

Krista - posted on 05/30/2010

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Well, I'm pretty vehemently opposed to landmines, no matter what the situation. That's all you need is some wandering kid or some poor dog stepping on one...

Kelly - posted on 05/30/2010

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Actually Krista, the more I think about it, and the more I read about open borders, I really don't think land mines and towers would be bad....... You don't honestly think it would be a bloodbath, do you? After the word got out that it was all there, I bet people wouldn't dare try to cross..... maybe we need to do a huge media blitz and make people THINK we are mining the border......

Krista - posted on 05/30/2010

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Kat, you DO realize that Kelly was being facetious when she suggested land mines and sniper towers, right?

Kat - posted on 05/30/2010

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Diane : "I agree no amnesty but we have over 500,000 illegals estimated in Arizona….why should we for the years it would take for all of them to become citizens, support them? Why can’t they apply in Mexico and go through the proper channels there. This is also an economics issue and they are draining the state. They are draining all border states. California is already bankrupt and have had several hospitals close down because of illegals. They are a burdon on our schools and hospitals. A great majority of them are criminal and are in our prison systems. We do not have the manpower to weed through that many files to pick out those that are not coming here to harm us."

i agree completely. :)


Massachusetts is an amnesty state. they can go there. they can commit any crime and they have what basically amounts to as diplomatic immunity. rape a 6 year old? that 6 year old shouldnt have the gall to play in their front yard. kill a family by drunk driving? maybe they shouldnt have been out on the road. there's the solution. MA loves them so much, youd think it would get thru the grapevine (lol) to the illegals and theyd pay someone and hop in the back of a semi and head out.

and as for the people who say "why dont you just go to the border and defend them yourselves?" well, why dont we send you some illegals and you can support them by letting them live in your house, send them to school, pay for their meds, etc. it works both ways. oh wait....youre doing that already by paying taxes. not just anyone can go protect the border, but just anyone CAN bring an illegal into their home and welcome them to this country

as for illegals contributing to our economy. YES they do...and look at the economies of CA, AZ, etc for proof. theyre draining them dry. they send the majority of their money they make here back to their families in Mex. dunno about your guys' towns/cities, but here where i live in S Indiana, the mexicans come here, find a woman on welfare (they hang out all over the welfare housing) to marry, have at least 3 kids on welfare, and collect welfare themselves. i'm not saying other races do the same thing, but it's rampant among illegals. they just come here (speaking for my area, nowhere else) to collect a "govt paycheck" and work the tobacco fields.

Kelly :
"I say we secure our border the way N. Korea has. We land mine every foot. Then we have towers, and border patrol, minute men, whoever wants the job can sit in towers and pick people off with sniper rifles. No interrogations, no questions. If you are trying to cross and it's not a designated border crossing, we shoot first and ask questions later. I suspect it wouldn't be very easy to smuggle drugs up and guns down."

i was gonna suggest something similar :) great idea. if only the US would actually do that

Rosie - posted on 05/30/2010

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i don't see how opening borders would help either. i do think we need to legalize marijuana and regulate and tax it, i also feel that stiffer punishments need to be in hand for people who hire illegal imigrants, like in my state of iowa there is a guy here facing up to 41 years for fraud from his hiring of illegal immigrants at his kosher meat packing plant. i really hope he gets the maximum jail sentence, but what really bothers me about that whole thing was the hundreds of people that were working there illegally have lived here in iowa for years, their children were born here, they weren't breaking any laws. (except for the big one of coming here in the first place, but can you blame them?). now they are being sent back to mexico with or without their children i don't know. that saddens me, and i don't like that answer either.
however, i don't see how asking someone for their papers if they are suspected of being here illegally is a bad thing. how does that hurt anything? if you aren't breakiing the law, then you don't have much to worry about.

i agree that all of the ideas that that some ladies proposed would indeed help the situation. the government needs to enforce more laws, and thats what the new bill in arizona is doing. why is that so hard to see?

?? - posted on 05/30/2010

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I parrot what Jenny said.



And Kelly, I also said that it's impossible and illogical - but securing the borders in the manner that you proposed is even MORE impossible and illogical. And that was my point there.



I'm not suggesting Mexico is anything - I know people that live in Mexico and live happily in Mexico. I know people from Canada that own houses and businesses in Mexico. They live there 6 months of the year and live here 6 months of the year. And I will emphasize these people are by no means rich, they just love the place's they live. Their Mexican friends have come to Canada repeatedly and every single one of them has been ANXIOUS to get back home to the country they love.



So if Mexico is as bad as everyone here is saying, why do those people love it so much? The argument of possible or impossible to live in Mexico is pointless. The same as people in the USA - some live comfortably and some don't. The ONLY difference between Mexico and the USA is that the USA offers compensation for it's citizens that are unable to live comfortably for whatever reason. There are programs available to help the citizens of the USA. I don't know if those programs are available in Mexico? From what I can tell, they aren't and if there is, they're obviously not as obtainable as the programs in the USA or Canada.





Opening the borders simply means to allow people to come into our countries, legally, so that they can earn a living and provide for themselves and their families. Something they were unable to do in Mexico. If they are unable to achieve that 'goal' in the USA, they can try Canada.



This is obviously just surface changes, there would have to be many changes in how things are done, the legalities of it all and the finer points. Social programs require an application - at least, every time I've looked into a social program I've been told to fill out the application forms (like when I applied for maternity leave) so the people who come through the 'open' border, legally, they aren't automatically given a right to welfare or whatever other community social program is available - there would have to be regulations in place for that. And that would have to go for American citizens as well.





Anyways, that's just a lil elaboration on how it could work and what would have to change -- on the surface -- obviously it would go much deeper and there would be many other changes and it couldn't be implimented over night but again it IS NOT as foolish as saying open fire and ask questions later.



And I will repeat;





Is it going to happen? No. Is it a lot more sensible, realistic and humane than the opposite extreme of slaughtering human beings? Yes.

Jenny - posted on 05/30/2010

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Why are open borders equated with one world order? I see it as allowing people the choice of what system they want to live under. No governments need to change, Just pick the one that suits you and contribute to that system. It is very simple.

Kelly - posted on 05/30/2010

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"BUT essentially, opening the borders, Canada, The USA and Mexico is no more illogical or impossible than securing the borders, at this point."



Jo, I disagree. It absolutely is impossible and illogical to have open borders. You are talking about one world order. One ruling government, one set of laws, etc. merged out of multiple countries. That is no simple matter. And at this stage in the game of life, I think that would probably start WWIII.



You also said "It is NATURAL for humans to do what they have to do to survive. Period. If that is not possible in Mexico, then it is NATURAL for them to go somewhere else."



I agree that people will fight to survive. But if it is literally impossible to survive in Mexico, the issue is not just illegal immigration. Are you saying Mexico is just too far gone? If you were to open the border tomorrow, how many of the 110 million people that live in Mexico would head north? 80%? 90%? Would Mexico just be abandoned and turned over to the drug cartels to do with what they please? Instead of trying to force America to take in more and more, why are you not holding Calderon and the Mexican government responsible for the state of their own country? Why are we supposed to provide millions of dollars to a defunct government that can't keep control of its own people and is full of corruption? Bush was ridiculed and slammed for the war on terror, yet we are being chastised for not entering this war on drug cartels in Mexico.



Mary Elizabeth's philosophical point was a good one. If you begin your path to citizenship by breaking the law, at the very least it isn't fair to those that are citizens, and especially not fair to those who patiently immigrated legally.



Mary Elizabeth, I am not going to argue that gaining citizenship is difficult and expensive. And I understand that some people want to become Americans. It seems to me however, that most of the people coming across from Mexico DON'T want to be US citizens, they want to be Mexican citizens that get the benefit of working and living in a better country than their own. I am not blaming them for that, if I moved to France to work or get married or something, I would not want to renounce my US citizenship and become French. My point is that I don't believe citizenship is the ultimate goal for a lot of those people, and what we need to do (once the borders are secure) is come up with a good, streamlined guest worker program.



I do agree with you on the fine issue. I (like you) think they should be hit with the max right out of the gate. Businesses that seek out illegals and knowingly hire them know damn well they are breaking the law. In my opinion they should be shut down. The bummer is, our system is broken. The government isn't doing anything to stop the continued flood of illegals coming in, and they aren't doing anything to punish those that are already here, along with the people, businesses and sanctuary cities that make it possible for them to be here. We need to hold our government accountable on our end, and hold Mexico accountable on their end.



*sorry if my post is all over the place, my baby just woke up, but I wanted to finish. Check with you guys later, have a great day :-)

Krista - posted on 05/30/2010

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As far as the marijuana issue, I don't think legalizing, regulating, and taxing would work. The smuggling operations are already set up. Why pay out the ass for it legally when you can get it cheaper on the black market?

Well, we could apply the same thing to cigarettes. Up here we have a problem with contraband cigarettes, because they're a heck of a lot cheaper than the regular ones you can get in the stores.

But, the overwhelming majority of smokers are law-abiding, and buy their cigarettes via legal means. When I was a smoker, I would have never sought out illegal cigarettes. I wouldn't have even known where to inquire about them!

So it's to find that balance, where they're being taxed enough to act as a deterrent to smoke, but not taxed so high as to encourage people to seek out the black market.

I think the same situation would apply with weed, were it legalized, taxed, and regulated. No, it won't eliminate the black market for it, but it would put a gigantic dent in it. And if that proper balance is found with regards to price, the black market for it could be reduced to nothing more than a nuisance.

ME - posted on 05/30/2010

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Jo...I agree with you that it's more reasonable than what Kelly suggested...I've made this same (snake) argument to my father about the rabbits in his garden :) I keep telling him, if he planted carrots in my house, I'd eat them too!

The only problem (excuse me, I'm about to get very philosophical) is that most societies work on a legal social contract that the adult people have to agree to live by. I don't break the laws written down in that contract (well most of them :), because in many ways I am beholden to my country and fellow citizens (I use public parks, public institutions, etc). I completely understand WHY the people of Mexico are coming here illegally...their government doesn't have a very good working social contract. The US does have a pretty great one...but coming here by breaking that contract sort of negates it's greatness...if you get my meaning. All of sudden we have thousands of people who are not (theoretically) beholden to that contract. That is, in some ways, very dangerous for the people who are, and when not dangerous, certainly unfair.

Ok...so, that said...I have a friend who immigrated legally to the US from the Soviet Union when she was 12 (political refugees). She is married, has two children, and has lived here the majority of her life...she is STILL trying to become a citizen. If we make it that hard and that expensive (which is her real problem), then we cannot possibly expect the desperately poor who are trying to escape devastating poverty to come here legally. We have to do something to separate those who are coming here for criminal reasons from the majority, who are coming here to make a new life for their families (this is why I suggest legalizing marijuana and possibly other drugs if we notice an improvement in criminal behavior).
I appreciate the stats on fines from Kelly (thanks), but clearly, that is not working. What if you got a 10,000 $ fine per person + you lost your business license + you served jail time for a first offense? After all, it costs the US tax payers a ton of money to deal with illegal immigrants and deportations! 250$ per person (the lowest lvl fine) is almost nothing if you own a big business...and if illegal immigrants work for low wages and don't unionize, then I understand why business owners continue to break the law to which they ARE beholden. The point of business is to make money, if they make more of it by hiring undocumented workers than by hiring legal citizens, then that's a better business model for them.

ok...I'm done for now :)

[deleted account]

Thanks for the offer, Diane, but we have lots of Mexicans here. People who live in the State of New South Wales refer to citizens of the state of Victoria as "Mexicans: - south of the border, get it? lol.

Seriously, i'm doing lots of reading so I can form my own opinion of the American situation.

?? - posted on 05/29/2010

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Follow me for a minute;



I love reptiles. I think snakes are one of the most beautiful creatures in the world. I have volunteered with different organizations to educate and relocate reptiles where humans are imposing their disgusting lives into their habitat.



I know a woman who spends all summer bleaching her yard and spraying all sorts of crap on the bank down to the river to kill the snakes. She's one of those vile human beings that imposes her disgusting life on the habitat of those snakes.



In the natural world, without borders, where creatures live amongst each other - she is in the wrong. The snake isn't doing anything it, otherwise, naturally wouldn't do. She is the one setting out to destroy it's habitat and she is the one that is imposing herself on the snake's world.



I think the same mentality, logically, can be applied to the "open the borders" argument. Borders are 'imaginary' and they are in place to 'keep something out' that otherwise has every right to be in that area. Borders are unnatural.







I think Jenny and I think along the same lines when it comes to humanity and this earth - obviously with personal differences - and I am in no way speaking for her, but just elaborating on the way I see opening the borders, it's a way to embrace humanity rather than divide humanity.



I KNOW borders are there because of laws, and all that other jurisdictional crap that comes with the legalities of living in a certain country. And I KNOW that in the grand scheme of things, opening the borders would take A LOT of fundamental changes to the entire planet and how it works, unless it were ONLY a North American thing and countries from other continents would still have to go through the legal immigration route.



BUT essentially, opening the borders, Canada, The USA and Mexico is no more illogical or impossible than securing the borders, at this point.





It is NATURAL for humans to do what they have to do to survive. Period. If that is not possible in Mexico, then it is NATURAL for them to go somewhere else. YES they SHOULD do it legally, obviously that's not working out so well. Eliminating the border, giving those "illegal aliens" equal legal opportunity to work and make a proper life, buying land, paying taxes, etc is [realistically] more plausible and productive than what Kelly suggested by lining up the rifles and laying down the land mines.







Is it going to happen? No. Is it a lot more sensible, realistic and humane than the opposite extreme of slaughtering human beings? Yes.

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