SONOFA locked thread.

Jenny - posted on 12/04/2009

It's more about the rest of your behaviour all together sweetie. Anyways, I know you don't care. This is more to bring it to Christa's attention. My last reply to you...

Jenny - posted on 12/04/2009

You are intentionally poking at people to cause a reaction. There are several examples of that in the last few threads as well. There is a post on the leaders board about this very subject and that the behaviour needs to STOP. A few Moms have left or been removed yet you are to the general board's knowledge unreprimanded for the same behaviour.



BTW on the other locked thread I was the ONLY one who apologised and then promptly let it go.



I don't want this to go too far off topic so I'm going to get back to the post now...

Jenny - posted on 12/04/2009

I'm glad to see that at least in this little corner of digital world, acceptance and love are the prevailing attitude. It is sad to see a couple of you are more focused on your version of your religion as being "right" than demonstrating the sharing, embracing qualities of true Christianity. The opinions of some of the more open minded Christians on the board further reinforces my belief that if the bible never had been written some individuals would maintain the anti-homosexual attitude. I guess the bible has something for everyone =(.



Another generation or two and hopefully America will embrace all of it's citizens as equals and join the ranks of other more progressive countries. Jesus will be proud when that day comes and I'm not saying the sarcastically.

Traci - posted on 12/04/2009

Quoting Laura:

I am sorry to say I am leaving this group. It is clear that EVERYTHING is now taken personally, that other belief systems are unwelcome (the fact that somebody felt compelled to apologize for stating their belief, while another continues to ram hers down everyone's throats) Opinions that originate outside the United States of America are viewed with scorn and derision. Intelligent and intellectual arguments are ignored in favor of petty arguments. I enjoyed myself on this page for a long time, and I wish the conservative ladies nothing but the best in the future. As for the rest of you heathens...see ya elsewhere! :P

I think you all are a little too sensitive here.  Later man.

Amie - posted on 12/04/2009

Quoting Laura:

I am sorry to say I am leaving this group. It is clear that EVERYTHING is now taken personally, that other belief systems are unwelcome (the fact that somebody felt compelled to apologize for stating their belief, while another continues to ram hers down everyone's throats) Opinions that originate outside the United States of America are viewed with scorn and derision. Intelligent and intellectual arguments are ignored in favor of petty arguments. I enjoyed myself on this page for a long time, and I wish the conservative ladies nothing but the best in the future. As for the rest of you heathens...see ya elsewhere! :P

=(

Amie - posted on 12/04/2009

Christa now you are inferring something I did not say or even imply. /:) I simply stated that next time I will keep my post short so it's easier to understand. If you think that means you are stupid that is your issue.

Isobel - posted on 12/04/2009

I am sorry to say I am leaving this group. It is clear that EVERYTHING is now taken personally, that other belief systems are unwelcome (the fact that somebody felt compelled to apologize for stating their belief, while another continues to ram hers down everyone's throats) Opinions that originate outside the United States of America are viewed with scorn and derision. Intelligent and intellectual arguments are ignored in favor of petty arguments. I enjoyed myself on this page for a long time, and I wish the conservative ladies nothing but the best in the future. As for the rest of you heathens...see ya elsewhere! :P

Cathy - posted on 12/04/2009

I do not oppose gay marriage. I do not oppose divorce. I do not oppose Christianity or it's belief that either of those two things are wrong. Respecting the christian belief system means that gay marriage will never be allowed in the church, I also in the same vein believe that divorcees should never be allowed to remarry in the church as they have also broken a promise to God. Do I agree with this stance? No. It saddens me that the Christian God will accept rapists and murderers who repent their sins but turn his back on people whose only sin is to fall in love with the wrong gender. But I do not feel that the state has the right to interfere with church matters.

Once a person seperates themselves from the church then these things no longer have revelavance. Civil marriages should have no reference to God or the Bible, and should therefore have no reference to sexuality (not a choice, in my opinion) or make judgements of a persons previous mistakes.

Iris - posted on 12/04/2009

Amie, all that you have said is exactly how I feel. Being of Lutheran faith myself, where I come from my faith has taught me tolerance and acceptance.

My best friend is a lesbian and it is not a "lifestyle" you choose, it just is what you are. I grew up with my friend and she never dated guys and during the early dating period she just didn't know why she wasn't interested. She was born this way, it isn't a "lifestyle" she chose, it just is. Not everything that is different is in our physical appearance, it's on the inside too. But what we can't see many of us have a problem to accept....

. - posted on 12/04/2009

I wonder how Priests get on then considering there is number of them who are gay.

Iris - posted on 12/04/2009

I just want to add this ;)

Dana - posted on 12/03/2009

Well then yes, you did choose your words poorly.

~Jennifer - posted on 12/03/2009

Quoting Tawny:

I think we all need to step back and see that we all are very judgemental. Im a christian and I do not support Gay marriage and was really against it, but my dad and I were talking about it awhile ago and he said something that made a lot of sense. He asked me if gay marriage had anything to do with me and I said no but that I just don't think that they should have the marriage behind them . He said that if it isn't harming me why should I care we know what the Bible says and if we abide by it, then let them get married and live there lives. He said that too many people are judging and we don't have the right to judge. So I have really thought about it and have come to have the same thinking, I feel that we should let them do what they want because the more we are against it the more they are going to push that they will want to be apart of church and we will need to include them. The divorce situation well when I married I married till death do you part but I know that there are some marriages that need to end in divorce. I think people abuse divorce because it is too easy to get a divorce I think if it was a little harder than the percentage would be lower. But that is just my opinion and in some cases divorce will happen no matter what. But when I say divorce should be a little harder I am basically looking at the actors who get married and two days later want a divorce. I am not trying to throw my faith on anyone I know there are some on here who don't like when christianity is trying to be forced on them. I am trying not to :)

Wow....I don't even know you or your dad, but I want to hug you both.

Merry Christmas!

Dana - posted on 12/03/2009

I've missed quite a bit. I said it before and I'll say it again. Christa, no one is asking you to say it's okay or to turn your back on the bible. You can still think it's perfectly wrong until the cows come home but, making it illegal goes against our constitution. I also want to clarify. I don't think you hate homosexuals, I do think things you've said sound hateful. I asked that question because you said children of homosexuals are unhealthy.

Tawny, great post. As a Christian, what I take away from the bible is love and to live life with out judging people by a whole or by one "defining" thing. I sin daily, I don't have the room to judge anyone. Not to mention the fact that, that is clearly pointed out in the bible.

Tawny - posted on 12/03/2009

I think we all need to step back and see that we all are very judgemental. Im a christian and I do not support Gay marriage and was really against it, but my dad and I were talking about it awhile ago and he said something that made a lot of sense. He asked me if gay marriage had anything to do with me and I said no but that I just don't think that they should have the marriage behind them . He said that if it isn't harming me why should I care we know what the Bible says and if we abide by it, then let them get married and live there lives. He said that too many people are judging and we don't have the right to judge. So I have really thought about it and have come to have the same thinking, I feel that we should let them do what they want because the more we are against it the more they are going to push that they will want to be apart of church and we will need to include them. The divorce situation well when I married I married till death do you part but I know that there are some marriages that need to end in divorce. I think people abuse divorce because it is too easy to get a divorce I think if it was a little harder than the percentage would be lower. But that is just my opinion and in some cases divorce will happen no matter what. But when I say divorce should be a little harder I am basically looking at the actors who get married and two days later want a divorce. I am not trying to throw my faith on anyone I know there are some on here who don't like when christianity is trying to be forced on them. I am trying not to :)

?? - posted on 12/03/2009

You don't care, I don't care, I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings - doesn't really seem like you have all that many feelings to get hurt anyways, so no surprise there. As for answering to me, this is a discussion forum - where you ask questions, answer questions and discuss both question and answers... duh? I don't answer to you either but I have the decency and brains to realize that the point of being here is to answer and discuss and ask more questions.



I guess you didn't make this forum to discuss anything, you made this forum to spread your word and then puss out when people confront you with how you come off. Oh well, run away Christa, don't answer anything, but don't be surprised when people tell you that you come off badly and they don't want to answer anything you ask because everyone knows you wouldn't give them the same respect.



I'm done with you too. Have fun talking to yourself.

Amie - posted on 12/03/2009

Jo don't worry about it. Remember this so next time they try to say that you aren't answering questions, just keep dodging the questions and pose your own. It's a never ending cycle. /:) Especially when they talk about Religion.

Christa again, you can not make blanket statements about non religious people. I seem to remember having this conversation with you quite some time ago. I was part of a religion. I was a Lutheran, by all accounts some of the most hardcore out there. I left the church. I became disheartened by it all because of people like you. The church preached acceptance and love but only if you fit into this category, or didn't do this, or adhered completely to God's Law. /:) What a bunch of hogwash. It is why I left the church and left the bible. I will find my own path to God, I have found my own path to God. Trust me he is not like your God at all.

That's the other issue I have with it too. With so many religions, with so many humans being.... well stupid is a good word, with everything we know about how wrong we can get it, why would anyone put their trust in a book. That was written thousands of years ago, by men, who more than likely got it wrong. Not to mention that today if people started popping up saying they are the next disciples, that Jesus has returned!, Salvation is at hand!, etc, etc, etc. I know for a fact MOST Christians would look at those people like they were crazy and turn their backs on them. The ones who didn't would ask for proof.

So the ones who ask for proof obviously don't get it, after all how do you prove that God is sending messages through you? The ones who did believe them would be labeled nutbags and shunned.

Why is that ok? How do you know they aren't right? I don't know and I talk with God everyday. We don't know his master plan, we don't know that he wants us to condemn others, we don't know that he isn't just a great big kid going hmmm... I wonder what I can do to stir the shit pot today. You don't know, I don't know, no one knows for sure. It is why I take offense to people claiming that they do, they don't. I know some of the most devout people, they would put all of you so called CHristians here to shame, they even accept that they don't know. They are doing what they feel is right and what they think God wants. They have not spurned me because I left the church, the ones who have attitudes like you and Traci sure did though. No skin off my arse, I'm not looking to surround myself with close minded haters. Whether you want to admit it or not. That is exactly how you come off.

You know why my most devout Christian friends and family accept me and all others for who and what they are? It's because God is supposed to represent love and acceptance. In all forms. It is not our place on this earth to judge a single person, but we all do it everyday. How others choose to live their lives we can not and should not control. They do and have expressed their discomfort or thoughts on various issues but they do not take it the step further that you guys have. The most I've ever seen any of them do is protest to get their voices out. During them they are not telling people they are wrong, that God does not approve, they honestly try to give the people another option. If they don't agree they do not continue to bash, they go about their way with a thank you for listening, I understand MY way is not for you.

Obviously in some cases like rapist, murderers, etc. it is a given that they need to be removed from society at large. But when it comes to smaller issues like homosexuality, you have NO RIGHT, in God's or anyone else's eyes to try and change how they are. God will judge them in the end and he will judge you. You will not get browny points for trying to spread his word. There are millions of avenues for people to find God, all you do is piss people off when you try to act holier than thou. You are no better than any other decent person. You do not have the authority or the right to try and teach and push people into a religion just because you do not agree with their lifestyle.

JL - posted on 12/03/2009

The American concept of legal marriage was brought over by Western European settlers. The European ideal of marriage that became based in American society was built around the idea that a marriage was a business contract, a patriarcial change of services with lawful recognition of the legitmacy over control over wealth and lawful recognition of a childs legitimacy. Most marriages were arranged between families or by a matchmaker. Basically marriage was an economic arrangement...henceforth the states involvement in order to establish ownership and legal control over money and property rights which meant the guarantee of the males ownership of everything. The ring the woman recieved was a down payement and a sign of a business successful deal or sale of the bride.



Overtime some people got a bug up their butt and decided they wanted to marry out of love not out of arrangement or convience or for legitimacy thought the concept of marriage as a business contract not a love match was practiced in America well into the 19th century. In the 20th century marriage became celebrated popular event and a commericalized venture.



Throughout America's history concerning marriage there were number of restrictive laws that developed and varied according to what bug some people had up their butt at the time....laws concerning age (overtime we did away with the legalized accepted marrriage of underage women) social status (at one point in time you could not marry someone of a lower class), property claims (men at one time took on everything brought into a marriage and they maintained all control even if they abandoned their wife and even in death what was left went to his male heirs..the wife owned or recieved nothing and this was the common practice up until the mid-1900s) and then of course their were the laws based on race and ethincity.



The male ownership marriage contract and the concept of female subserviance changed when some people got a bug up their butt and decided to work on gaining rights for married women. It took a few centuries before the practice of legal male dominance over their wives no longer existed as the common legal practice concerning marriage.



At one point in time most states had miscegenation laws which first became legalized during the 17th century. Most of the laws in particular banned the marriage of whites to African Americans and Asians some went further and banned marriage to Native Americans. Then low and behold some people got a bug up their butt about that and started fighting back against the laws and slowly over time more and more states starting overturning those laws that were first enacted in the 17th century. The last law was not overturned until 1967......by SCOTUS.



The complete idea of marriage and the legally accepted idea of marriage that we know now is not what it has always been, because the ideals and the legal concept have varied according to what bug got up someones butt. We will see how long it takes this particular bug (same sex marriage) to work its way through society because most significant social changes occur slowly in small increments.

?? - posted on 12/03/2009

I'm asking valid questions and you can't/won't answer them? I'm not trying to belittle anyone, I'm asking honest questions. I don't feel like I should have to candy coat anything and be "PC" about it just cause it hurts your feelings. You and others don't, you have even made MULTIPLE excuses for other people and yourself about 'speaking the truth and not candy coating it'. You're the one interjecting your beliefs into the discussion so I am questioning that. I am allowed to have my opinion about you the same as you are about people who are gay - you call them names and belittling their life - who are you to think you're above it all? I am not calling you names, I am stating what I think of your attitude and opinion on this topic.

Isobel - posted on 12/03/2009

So instead of trying to have divorce banned, they should have tried to have a law passed making adultery and premarital sex against the law?

Christa - posted on 12/03/2009

Quoting Jenn:

Quoting Christa:

Jenn, to your OP. There is no difference between sins, but there is a difference in making one sin and living a lifestyle of sin. So a person getting a divorce commits a sin, a mistake. A person living a homosexual lifestyle makes the choice to sin every day, over and over, and most likely isn't asking for forgiveness. The two are indeed different in the eyes of the Lord. Like I said originally I would love to see the requirements to get a divorce much stricter because there are so many out there that don't take marriage seriously and have ruined its sanctity. But the bible does say that adultery is an acceptable reason for divorce so to outlaw it completely would actually go against the bible. I also would like to see what the divorce rate is among Christian couples, not all heterosexuals. I would bet it's much less. The fact that our society has already broken down the importance of marriage is not excuse or reason to break it down further. Which is why for me these arguments are empty and won't change anyone's mind, anyone that share's my beliefs that is.

Ok, but the bible also says that anyone who divorces and remarries (or physically attaches themselves to anyone other than their one & only husband), commits adultery -for as long as they are together.  Call it 'once an adulterer, always an adulterer'  if that makes it easier, but as long as they continue in the relationship outside of thier one and only recognized marriage - they ARE living a lifestyle of sin.  It's pretty cut and dry if you follow a literal interpretation. (not saying you do, just saying 'you' in general) 

Anyway- I can't stay on long, so I'll come back ot this later.....Peter had his surgery on Monday, and he's just NOT a happy camper.  I'll be back to this later after  his pain meds kick in - lol.

 

 

Here's a link showing divorce rates among Christian couples - it's the first one I found, I'm sure I can find others when I have time to research further, but here's a jumping off point.

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_di...

 

You could interperet it that way, but if that is the case then you should make remarriage illegal, not divorce.  But again it really all boils down to repentance. 

Dana - posted on 12/03/2009

Quoting Traci:


Dana, you said that you were asking Christa a question...but you replied with quote to my post....so ???

I did not use your quote, in my question to Christa.   The only time I used your quote was when you ANSWERED for Christa and I ASKED if you were referring to me since I didn't understand why you would answer and get angry about something that had NOTHING to do with you.   Get it now.....???   You interjected and are still carrying on about something that had and still has nothing to do with you.  :)

Sara - posted on 12/03/2009

Good to know! :)

Sara - posted on 12/03/2009

Leviticus 18:22 clearly states homosexuality to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice, however, regarding some of the other specific laws in the bible and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? Laura, Jo, Amie...got any ideas?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Why does it seem like some things in the bible are passed over while others are held on to? This is what confuses me about using the bible to support an argument against homosexuality. In the old testament there were many laws passed down from God, but we don't follow these, do we? It is all just very confusing for me...

Isobel - posted on 12/03/2009

You claim that gay marriage affects YOU...yet you never explain how it directly affects YOUR life to allow other people to be happy. What EXACT effects (other than a chapped ass) does a gay marriage have on YOUR life?

. - posted on 12/03/2009

Jo- I could have not said that better myself

?? - posted on 12/03/2009

It's easier goin through life with blinders on rather than accept real human truths.



Why not be understanding of something that has no affect on your life? What's the point of being inconsiderate of the complete well being and complete happiness of anyone other than yourself? Who has time to actually think about other people's lives so much so that they spend actual physical energy fighting against someone else's happiness? Where is it that people in this world get the idea that their happiness is more deserved than anyone else? Let alone more deserved because of a book they choose to believe in. When will people realize that no one cares about you, just as much as you don't care about them? How can you live with yourself knowing that your 'opinion' is the cause of so much hatred and pain in people's lives? Does it make you feel good knowing that your 'opinion' and your 'belief' teaches you to think like that? Is it really that hard to think for yourself and form an opinion based simply on being a decent human being? Can you really... really honestly say that it's decent thing to do to make even just one person feel outcast, rejected, unworthy of happiness, all because "the bible says so"?



I think it's time that people stop the excuses to hold themselves above others. Just like humans are above throwing feces at each other - we're also above 'believing' in something just cause we're told it's what we should believe in. That whole idea plays right into the common; "If your friends jumped off a bridge cause they said it was cool, would you do it too?" mentality. You don't have to believe anything if you don't WANT to believe something.



The ego behind the indecency and the plain contempt people have for others is disgusting. But I guess, excuses are like butt holes, everyone's got one. Some just stink worse than others.

Johnny - posted on 12/02/2009

I am forever befuddled by this assertion that homosexual marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage. For all the reasons that everyone here has pointed out (divorce and adultery chief among them). But also because here in Canada where I live, gay marriage has been legal for many years. There were concerns and the same arguments were held up when it was being debated here as there are now in the US. But since it has been legalized, no one seems to have been the slightest bit affected by it. No churches have been forced to perform gay weddings or even hold the receptions of gay couples in their church halls. There has not been an increase in divorce or an increase in the amount of gay people running amok. Even people I know who were concerned about gay marriage and did not believe that it should be legal have changed their minds. They wonder why they thought it would be bad and what the big deal was. There has been absolutely no harm done to our country. In fact, by recognizing the human rights of a group of people, we are less divided and we are all more free. My own marriage means more, not less. If gay people had not been allowed to marry, then by becoming a married person, I would have been partaking in a discriminatory institution. There is nothing sacred about that.

The sanctions against adultery are part of the ten commandments. There are 4 passages in the bible that proscribe homosexuality. Why is it that so much energy is put into fighting gays and no one is trying to outlaw cheating on your spouse?

Isobel - posted on 12/02/2009

Like I said in my post...either both are true...or neither is



IF policy A is harmful to the family AND therefore MUST be illegal...THEN

IF policy B is harmful to the family THEN policy B MUST also be illegal.



This is LOGIC...what civilization is SUPPOSED to be based on...not opinion

~Jennifer - posted on 12/02/2009

.....sorry, but I was typing my reply when the other one was locked, then my comp froze when I tried to post, and as a member of the group, I think I have a right to state my opinion. Didn't mean to open Pandora's box again, but that 'lock' thing really boiled my nards after reading through ALL of those replies to formulate an opinion.