THIS is just AWESOME.

Sara - posted on 01/13/2010 ( 28 moms have responded )

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I don't even know what to say. I'm just disgusted.

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Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate and to show true humility toward all men. Titus 3: 1-2



Does Pat Robertson have the same Bible?

Jenny - posted on 01/18/2010

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Pat Robertson on Haiti: Why Religion Hates Science



Pat Robertson's idiotic claim that God caused the Haitian earthquake got me to thinking about just how much religion preys on ignorance.



Consider for a moment what Robertson is really saying. He claims God was angry about the Haitians making a pact with Satan about 250 years ago, around 1800. Now earthquakes don't just happen – it's not like God stomped on the ground really hard and everything jumped around. No, this earthquake has been brewing for ... wait a second, since 1843 when the last earthquake struck Haiti! (It killed 10,000 people. Maybe that was God's first blow against these sinners.)



But wait, there's more – it seems God screwed up. He blasted the place a couple times before the Haitians made their pact with Satan! According to Wikipedia, there was a magnitude 7.5 earthquakes in 1770, thirty years before the Haitians' pact, and another before that in 1751 that flattened the city.



In fact, it turns out God had to start his revenge on the Haitians hundreds of millions of years ago, when He created the geology of the area!



But wait a second ... it's that very geological fault that raised Haiti from the ocean floor in the first place. So if God hadn't need to get revenge, there wouldn't have been a Haiti in the first place, the French wouldn't have colonized it, killed the natives, and brought African slaves there, and they wouldn't have had to make that pact with Satan. So God's revenge is also the cause? My head is spinning.



Of all the things I dislike about religion, its reliance on ignorance is the worst. People with even a modest education in science can't stomach this Biblical literalism nonesense. It's so silly it's laugable ... except that so many people believe it.



Worse, religious leaders count on the fact that most of their followers don't understand even the most basic aspects of science. And to ensure their own survival, they actively oppose education, because they know that their superstitions will wither in the face of facts.



Robertson's childish notion of God is just an extreme view of what most religions claim: God alters the laws of physics in the universe that He created, just to reward or punish humans. Here we are, on a tiny planet. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, contains at least 200 billion stars, and there are many billions of other galaxies, which means there are an estimated nine billion trillion stars total. That's a big universe, yet God is over here in this corner, willing to change the fundamental laws of physics for the universe just because we're praying for our football team to win.



This is why religiousness falls with education, and why evangelicals are so opposed to real science. Their millenia-old ideas just can't stand up to the truth.



Unfortunately, people like Robertson prey on ignorance, and they're good at it. Education is the answer, but it will take time.

Krista - posted on 01/14/2010

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Of course there's freedom of speech. But freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from criticism. Pat Robertson is free to say what he likes. And we are free to say that we think that his statement was inappropriate and disgusting.

I see this happening over and over and over. Some right-winger says something that is incredibly boneheaded and offensive. People object. Right-winger then claims that Teh Evil Libruls are trying to curtail freedom of speech. No. Teh Evil Libruls would be trying to curtail freedom of speech if they tried to JAIL Pat Robertson for what he said. He's still perfectly free to walk around, go about his business, and live his life. And we're still free to call him a walking asshole.

Ain't democracy grand?

Side note: it's funny how members of the right-wing always whine about their freedom of speech when they're being criticized, and yet I didn't see them protesting too loudly on behalf of the Dixie Chicks when they tried to exercise THEIR freedom of speech and received boycotts and death threats as a result.

Kelley - posted on 01/14/2010

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I won't say anymore after this. The suffering Pat is referring to is the manitude of this situation.

for instance:

If my daughter lets her dirvers liscense laps, and then she gets pulled over by a police officer (the insurance company didn't send the police) and she get ticketed, she now needs to pay the fine and continue to keep current on ins, but if she doesn't pay that fine or get ins., or keep current then gets pulled over again now she looses her liscense.



It didn't have to go from bad to worse. It was made worse because of the previous circumstance. This is the belief Pat expressed. Has nothing to do with being righteous, no-one is. But more about a bad to worse situation.

And why is the 'hater' crap touted. This man doesn't hate any of those groups you listed. It goes to show how little you know about him or his beliefs. Again just because a person opposes behaviors (i can name a few things my kids have done that i've been opposed to) but it does not mean love or compassion is still not there for them.



No, I didn't shed a tear for the dixie chicks I still reserved the right to call them singing assholes.



and yep...freedom of speech not freedom from criticism.

JL - posted on 01/13/2010

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It is people like Pat Robertson that drive me away from religion.



The satanic version of Haiti's history is inaccurate. Haitians were occupied by France and they were slaves. Not free citizens but slaves.Their independence from France started as a slave rebellion and like what happened in the US blood shed occurred in order to end slavery.



There was not white versus black war and no lets kill all the white man. Haiti was made up of various black ethnic groups, white ethic groups and mulattoes. The people were divided among the lines of race when it came to power because that is the way the administrators ruled but mainly the people were divided by those who supported maintaining the monarchy and those who wanted a Republican form of government just like Americans were when the revolution began.



The French Revolution was actually the precipes for the Haitian slave rebellion. The political changes in France brought changes to Haiti. The French assembly started granting citizenship rights to the mulatto land owners but the colonial administrators did not want to grant them the rights so in 1791 a group of black leaders started a slave rebellion. The assemblies in France kept insisting that rights be extended to mulattoe slave owners and whites divided in Haiti over whether to follow the change in law or establish a rule separate from French leadership. THere was political chaos.



A histoy of slavery is what kept Haitians in darkness and then Spain, Britain and France the Empires after the Slave rebellion each stepped in fighting over who would control the area. Each promising Haitians different things each just wanting to occupy Haiti. Toussaint had control for awhile and things were being aligned politically but then Napoloeon wanted to take back control with his want for world domination so he sent French troops into Haiti to dispose Toussaint. Then the Empires France and Britain were at war again leaving Haiti once again as a pawn for Imperial rule the question being who was going to rule Haiti because none of the powers were interested in letting Haitians run Haiti.



Haiti finally declared independence and of course when political instablity is the common reign they followed in those steps with Dessalines claiming himself Emperor. He was assasinated and then there was a fight for who would rule between Petion and CHristophe. They divided Haiti and ruled differently which just led to a competiton of control between blacks and mulattoes.



Then the US came 1915 to 1934 not just because of the political instability but because we feared the Germans were gaining control and it was all about which power was going to control Haiti. All those who assumed power in Haiti were power hungry despotics dictators who murdered those who opposed their rule.



Haiti's story is reflective of what Imperialism did to many small nations and large countries. Imperial control destroyed many countries. The Western powers went in assumed control and then when left places like Haiti without the knowledge or ability to govern themselves. They were pawns for despotic rulers and sometimes those rulers were supported by Western Powers.Look at India. It was ruled by Britain from afar for centuries before Britain pulled up stakes and left the nation to figure out what they were suppose to do. The country is still unstable because of what Imperial rule did as is Haiti. If Haitians had not be ruled over they would have been able to grow as a nation and create a stable government. And if Western nations had assisted rather than worry about occupying and controlling then Haiti would be a different place.



Satan...no, Imperialism yes.

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JL - posted on 01/21/2010

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A good book to read in order to understand why some areas have been able to succeed as nations and some not is Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. The book really puts into perspective how things such as geography.....land, water, vegetation, wild life... divide the haves from the have nots.

Sara - posted on 01/21/2010

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I found this conversation in the comments section of an article in popular science about Haiti...it's good. The first part is a quote from another user, the rest is someone's response to him:



mrxchunkylover posted:



"You can boo hoo and call me waycist all you want but one must look at patterns.

What pattern do I see?

Pretty much every country run by the Negroe race is a hell hole. Every white person is made to feel guilt for this. It's always "da wyte debils fawlt". We are always blamed for these things because of slavery."



Haha, you see patterns? Do you really? Because based on what you've written so far about countries run by "THE NEGROE RACE" (haha, sorry, that phrase always makes me laugh), it seems that you've only seen one (singular) pattern: You're right, those countries are indeed hellholes.



The mess within these countries is quite a bit more complicated than just "negroe bungling". Demographics show that almost every single one of these countries has a low to very low Median Age within the black populations (even Haiti) when compared to other predominant races in other nations (whites in England, Asians in Japan, etc). This is very important to understanding what's actually going on in these 3rd-World nations because if we examine the reasons for this discrepancy it becomes easy to see that this isn't just a black-exclusive phenomenon and that it is rather complicated



Non-arable land, famine, poor standard of living, weak laws & weak law enforcement, war, drugs, MISEDUCATION (a big one; superstition included), illiteracy and disease all play large rolls in undermining development in Third-World nations, but one factor that is consistently underestimated is low median age as almost all of the formally stated factors can contribute to it. Again, miseducation and lack of education are also huge factors.



I'm not going to write you an essay in this particular post (proofread edit: Doh!) so i'll just sum up my thoughts with the following: When close to 50% of your population is at or under the age of 18, you will live in a hellhole -- A cyclical hellhole of disadvantaged uneducated children raising disadvantaged uneducated children (many in war-torn areas). Where true academic education is not only optional (and NOT mandatory), but also in competition with voodoo mis-education (on mostly young, impressionable minds thanks to the low median age) e.g. if you have an STD such as AIDS and have sex with a virgin, you will be cured or how albino blacks are murdered and chopped up and sold because witch doctors say that they have mystical properties. Where females are literally more likely to be raped than learn to read.



Nations in the Middle East have the exact same problem with places like the Gaza Strip having a median of 16 years old. It’s a perpetual series of unfortunate events occurring over a considerably long time. Don’t have me mistaken -- this IS savagery, but it is a cultural and psychological savagery. Not ‘black’ savagery. I’ve been reluctant to mention slavery but it has had long-lasting indirect cultural effects on today’s society. Although, I think that some significant issues these nations face probably wouldn’t be any different than if slavery or colonization had never happened (The Middle East is good example of this).



The little attention the atrocities committed in these nations receive, generally comes in the form of media snapshots – Gangs of adolescent kids strapped with AK-47's.



To say that you have no sympathy for Haiti is simply reprehensible. An earthquake has nothing to do with race whatsoever. Do you have no compassion for human suffering? Haiti did have its fair share of problems before, but nothing of this magnitude. The people in Haiti barely even have water now. You do realize that those are real people dying, right? Or is this an “Us vs Them” thing. I’m not sure why you feel like black people are sending you on some guilt trip. Blaming slavery is not the same as blaming white people. I guess I could understand it if you meant uneducated blacks in third world countries are blaming “you”, but that shouldn’t bother you as an individual because as I stated earlier, those people are young, poor and most importantly, uneducated. I'm of the opinion that no group of people is truly at fault. Complex, unfortunate situations like this often give people a lot of room to erroneous play the blame game against other people.

Dana - posted on 01/20/2010

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I know, I'm curious who these people are. My whole life of being around religion, I've never heard of one person who liked him or ANY Televangelists. If people think that they represent the majority of Christians then they are badly mistaken.

JL - posted on 01/20/2010

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Alison I agree. My mom and grandmother are Christians and they both find Pat Robertson a sad embarrasment and wish he would stop calling himself a man of god. They avoid his show like the plague but unfortuntaely people do watch, listen and agree with him.

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I don't think many Christians out there regard Pat Robertson as one of the great thinkers of our religion. I'm not his biggest fan and I find his show annoying. I've actually seen him say even more offensive things on his show than this. I wish more Christians would avoid this show because his ignorance of many cultures and other religions is making everyone think that we're all like that.

Rosie - posted on 01/17/2010

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pat robertson disgusts me! it's people like him that give christians a bad name. it's people like him that turned me off from religion recently. although the church i grew up in would've probably been digusted by his behavior as well. how suttle is he? just suttle enough to make his followers believe in every bit of hate spewed from this mans mouth.

most of the stuff that this man does is not "christian" in it's values at all. pray for the people of haiti to change their ways? how about praying for all the gluttonous behavior that people like him engage in. tragedy is tragedy, whether it be on a large scale or small. should i be told that i deserve to have a horrible thing happen to me because my father was a horrible, horrible man (who just may be the devil himself!) even though i chose to conduct my life in an appropriate way? i'm sure pat doesn't have enough precious time to pray for me although in his words i'd surely have to be prayed for. only reason he spoke about haiti was to get attention for his money mongering church.

ME - posted on 01/17/2010

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lol...Oh Satan...that's some funny stuff...

In my church last night our Pastor talked about how ridiculous PR's statement was, and talked about the compassion of Jesus when helping those in need, not just those who already have faith in god...He specifically talked about the Miracles that jesus did where he took the offerings of regular people (turning water to wine at the wedding, and feeding the 5,000 at the sermon on the mount) as examples of how God can do amazing things when regular people offer help to their fellow human beings. Pat Robertson offers only ignorance, hatred, and viciousness! Pastor Brad made some really excellent points, and while I don't agree with everything that the Catholic Church says...I have to admit, I was very pleased to hear his supportive and compassionate point of view.

Krista - posted on 01/16/2010

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From the Minneapolis Star-Tribune

Dear Pat Robertson,
I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action. But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher. The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished. Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle. Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"? If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing. An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll. You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.

Best, Satan

Iris - posted on 01/14/2010

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It may have been his opinion Kelley, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people view his comments in a negative light. There may perfectly well be no devil and no God, but regardless of this it's wrong to say that the people of Haiti brough this on themselves. I have zero respect for Pat Robertson, all he does is spout hateful rhetoric in the name of God. I think anybody who is Christian should be mad that he's going around giving Christianity a bad name and reinforcing stereotypes for intolerance. As far as I'm concerned, he can go screw himself.

I agree 100%

Dana - posted on 01/14/2010

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Pat Robertson is a disgusting, vile, little man and deserves to burn in hell himself.

Sara - posted on 01/14/2010

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It may have been his opinion Kelley, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people view his comments in a negative light. There may perfectly well be no devil and no God, but regardless of this it's wrong to say that the people of Haiti brough this on themselves. I have zero respect for Pat Robertson, all he does is spout hateful rhetoric in the name of God. I think anybody who is Christian should be mad that he's going around giving Christianity a bad name and reinforcing stereotypes for intolerance. As far as I'm concerned, he can go screw himself.

ME - posted on 01/14/2010

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Joy...thank you once again for offering historically accurate, factual information as a reasonable response to insanity...I can't stand people like Pat Robertson...and while I support his right to say whatever he wants about people who are suffering and dying, I wish that his followers would see how VERY UN-christian his assanine statements are!

Sara - posted on 01/14/2010

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Kelley, it disgusts me because I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the suffering of the people of Haiti through this horrible tragedy was somehow brought on by themselves because they are not righteous enough. I think that's wrong...I just saw a picture of a man holding his dead baby in his arms crying, no one with a heart would say he deserved for that to happen.

Krista - posted on 01/14/2010

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And just to add, John Cook at Gawker put it beautifully:

Robertson can’t let human suffering pass without finding a way to insinuate that God did it deliberately because he hates gay people, black people, Catholics, or whatever other poor dying sap he can find to cruelly mock and use to his own political and fundraising advantage…

Johnny - posted on 01/13/2010

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I said to my husband today that the first I hear of some religious fanatic blaming the Haitians for their own suffering because of their supposed relationship with the devil, I am going to hunt that person down and show him/her exactly what the devil looks like. Anyone want to chip in for my air fare?

Pat Robertson is a disgusting, evil and vile man who takes advantage of people who are ignorant. If that is Christianity, then I'd prefer satan worship. Seems about the same to me, but if I worship the devil, I get to sacrifice chickens. And I hate chickens.

Kelley - posted on 01/13/2010

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Quote: Joy
The Western powers went in assumed control and then when left places like Haiti without the knowledge or ability to govern themselves. They were pawns for despotic rulers and sometimes those rulers were supported by Western Power

Me:
I think the statment above is a sad truth of the vulnerability that this country and it's people were left to deal with


But I was simply sharing something that more than just one Haition, many of them, believe the 'pact' thing to be true themselves.

But we have to make up our minds. Are we a free country? Is freedom of speech our personal right or not? Pat, simply espoused something of spiritual importance to circumstances surrounding these people, as a Christian believe, on a Christian program.
He wasn't jumping up and down he wasn't happy this happened, as a matter of fact they have been an organization very faithful in sending help to those in need around the world.
Disgusting?
No, way, just a spiritual observation, and a voiced concern.
Is there 'Freedom of Speech' or not?

Krista - posted on 01/13/2010

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"And the Devil said 'It's a deal', and kicked the French out"?

Seriously? You seriously believe that the "Devil" decided to involve himself in geopolitical matters during the 18th century?

Besides, if Satan was given the country for 200 years in 1804, then the lease would have expired in 2004. How come Haiti isn't all happy sunshiny? It wouldn't have anything to do with repeated intervention by France and the United States. And I'm sure it wouldn't have anything to do with them usually having dictators in power.

Besides, the majority of Haitians are actually Christian. Yes, some practice vodou (oftentimes alongside their Christianity). But statements like Robertson's are bullshit. This is no better than when he agreed with Jerry Falwell that 9/11 happened because "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists" made God mad. It IS disgusting.

Kelley - posted on 01/13/2010

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Quoting Kelley:

We are friends with a family that the husband grew up in Haiti, and he's told this himself, that there is a reall darkness there. He grew up starving on the streets and could remember that to kill a bird was a feast. That even then it had to be faught for, just to get the chance to eat it.

Seriously this pact was real.
Our family also has helped children get out of a modern day salvery...it doesn't look like the slavery of old, but these children are found in the streets their families 'super' poor, and people approach the family on the false pretense that they will take in their child, and feed/cloth/school them, sometimes they even give the families a small amount of money to 'act' like they're helping them out, but when these children get to these homes they are no-more than their servants, they get fed but often are left to sleep on floors. Anyway it's really sad and people do not talk about it (I'll try to find a website link.)
What Pat is talking about isn't about fault line positions. Rather how this is even worse for the Haition people because of their very poor circumstance.
As a believer in Jesus and holding these the commandments, and kind of values Christians believe in. That God's provision and making a way where there seems no way is part of His protective grace, and provision.
Because 'If' there is a devil, even in the sense of good vs. bad then I can assure you human suffering is at the top of his agenda.
Now as far as receiving monies, have you ever seen the work this ministry does? The Clean water project is my favorite, but they offer operations to children to give back sight, hearing, save lives, and so much more, in third world countries. They have quite an amazing outreach and they didn't ask for the gov. to fund it.

It's an observation of a minister who believes that if a life or nation holds onto the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that they live under a grace even in circumstance of disaster, not that anything causes it, but that things could be worse or if by being prepared, could lesson the pain of the aftermath.
Haiti is hurting and in there state of poverty it is especially horrific.
And as a Christian on a Christian program this is exaclty the forum to be able to present this.


Here's a clip from some of the history of Haiti's religious/spiritaul affiliation:



"Haiti
 is the only country in the entire world that has dedicated its government to Satan. Demonic spirits
 have been consulted for political decisions, and have shaped the country's history." Thus speaks Reverend Doug Anderson, who grew up in Haiti with missionary parents, and served there along with his wife Dawn as a missionary until 1990. The leaders of Haiti make no attempt to hide their allegiance to Satan. Haiti’s government is a government of the devil, by the devil, and for the devil.



It is a matter of well-documented historical fact that the nation of Haiti was dedicated to Satan 200 years ago. On August 14, 1791, a group of houngans (voodoo
 priests), led by a former slave houngan named Boukman, made a pact with the Devil at a place called Bois-Caiman. All present vowed to exterminate all of the white Frenchmen on the island. They sacrificed a black pig in a voodoo ritual at which hundreds of slaves drank the pig’s blood. In this ritual, Boukman asked Satan for his help in liberating Haiti from the French. In exchange, the voodoo priests offered to give the country to Satan for 200 years and swore to serve him. On January 1, 1804, the nation of Haiti was born and thus began a new demonic tyranny.



 



Our family feind and other Haitions have openly shared how vodoo is extremely sacry in this culture - very practiced.



 

Kelley - posted on 01/13/2010

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We are friends with a family that the husband grew up in Haiti, and he's told this himself, that there is a reall darkness there. He grew up starving on the streets and could remember that to kill a bird was a feast. That even then it had to be faught for, just to get the chance to eat it.

Seriously this pact was real.
Our family also has helped children get out of a modern day salvery...it doesn't look like the slavery of old, but these children are found in the streets their families 'super' poor, and people approach the family on the false pretense that they will take in their child, and feed/cloth/school them, sometimes they even give the families a small amount of money to 'act' like they're helping them out, but when these children get to these homes they are no-more than their servants, they get fed but often are left to sleep on floors. Anyway it's really sad and people do not talk about it (I'll try to find a website link.)
What Pat is talking about isn't about fault line positions. Rather how this is even worse for the Haition people because of their very poor circumstance.
As a believer in Jesus and holding these the commandments, and kind of values Christians believe in. That God's provision and making a way where there seems no way is part of His protective grace, and provision.
Because 'If' there is a devil, even in the sense of good vs. bad then I can assure you human suffering is at the top of his agenda.
Now as far as receiving monies, have you ever seen the work this ministry does? The Clean water project is my favorite, but they offer operations to children to give back sight, hearing, save lives, and so much more, in third world countries. They have quite an amazing outreach and they didn't ask for the gov. to fund it.

It's an observation of a minister who believes that if a life or nation holds onto the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that they live under a grace even in circumstance of disaster, not that anything causes it, but that things could be worse or if by being prepared, could lesson the pain of the aftermath.
Haiti is hurting and in there state of poverty it is especially horrific.
And as a Christian on a Christian program this is exaclty the forum to be able to present this.

~Jennifer - posted on 01/13/2010

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So....if "the devil' is a better bet than the French, what's that say about the French?

No, seriously......" a pact with the devil to get away from French rule?"

Imma need to see some proof of that.....
*shakes head*
How ridiculous can someone be? What's he saying here? That everyone that happens to live on a geothermic fault line is in league with satan?

(Yet, he's still collecting monetary funds to send relief to people that are serving satan....isn't that sweet of him? "Send me your money and god will save Haiti!")

Kelley - posted on 01/13/2010

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Quoting Kelley:

Why are you disgusted?



let me ask a question. Do you know any one who grew up as a child in Haiti?

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