War On Drugs...

Jessica - posted on 07/11/2011

Not everything, but if we try to fix everything then we will never fix anything.

Karla - posted on 07/11/2011

Dyan,
I see your point now, it wasn't very clear to me when I read the post; and as you say, may not be a necessarily better situation.

Some things would stay the same. I suppose we can't fix everything by legalizing drugs! lol

Rosie - posted on 07/11/2011

lol karla, i knew someone was gonna catch that. i had convinced myself that instead of her just getting drugs for her "performance" she'd get money and after she bought her drugs maybe have some left over. i dont' know too many johns that will give money and drugs, lol.
still, she'd probably use that money for her next round of drugs. you're right. :)

Jenny - posted on 07/11/2011

I would bet meth would phase itself out naturally if legalized. Those who desire the feeling would have access to pure, regulated amphetamines so wouldn't really want to buy that shit in the first place (so long as pricing takes that into account).



Prostitution should be legalized too so what does that leave for gangs? Real crimes like extortion, theft, murder, bribery, assault. Crimes with real victims and real criminals. These I can get behind prosecuting and I think most of you see a difference too to drug use as a "victimless crime". You can't be your own victim if you make a choice as a consenting adult.



Of course selling to minors would still be illegal and of course drug dealers would try to exploit that market. Drug dealers don't check ID. The aim is reduce harm though as it can never be eradicated. I think we can agree there is not a huge underground alcohol and cigarette racket going on though. We could be putting these billions of dollars we are burning up in enforcement into education and treatment and only then maybe we can see some positive results.



On demand: that will NEVER change and we can not legislate morality. One part we don't really talk about are the huge amounts of casual users who live normal lives but may do a few lines on a Friday night. Regardless of the numbers of users the number of abusers has remained a constant percentage. Of course, we never hear about those people and have this notion that everyone who uses drugs lives on Skid Row and wants to steal your purse. Legalizing drugs would also lower the prices which would result in less harm of to society through crimes to acquire them.



What you consider to be just another crackhead is someone's family member who came from a different set of circumstances as you did. We have no right to judge them and every obligation to give them access to help when they are ready to seek it. I've seen family members through recovery and I do know how difficult it can be. Drug abuse is not pretty by any means. We removed one from her home by force and she lives with us for a year while getting better. She hasn't used in years now and is doing GREAT.



So do we allow our family members to die in the street in the name of profits most of society never sees? Or do we take the bull by the horns and turn this sad situation into something that can potentially benefit society and we may have a chance in hell of regulating? We have to stop thinking of this topic with our emotions and our sense of comfort and use our brains. Legalize and regulate.



For more info: http://www.leap.cc/ Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

Karla - posted on 07/11/2011

You guys are messing with my head. LOL.

I’m still having trouble seeing how a crack-head whore would be any different if the crack were legal. Wouldn’t she still be a crack-head whore trying to get a john so she could buy more crack at the local (legal) crack house?

I do see how legalizing would have a positive effect on production, distribution, transportation, and general monitoring of crack (or what-have-you) but individually the addicts are still addicts and would need to be arrested and put in rehab. (like DUI cases.)

(Abortion side note: I know several people who have had abortions and talked to me about it, they in NO WAY “accept … that life is cheap.” The issue is not black and white issue and these sound bites are not truth. Also, documenting abortions has NEVER been mandated so pre and post 1973 numbers are not accurate. It makes me wonder now if the rate has gone down, or if less reporting is done. Remember it was brought up as a point of whether or not abortions increased after legalization, and I think we’ve determined that no one knows.)

Sara - posted on 07/11/2011

Don't you think as well that legalizing drugs would have a positive impact on our illegal immigrant problem? If drugs were legalized, the income of millions of illegals would go away. What would they do? My guess is they would go home. In fact, if cartels that were involved in the illegal drug trade lost power through our legalization of drugs, perhaps so many people wouldn't come here to escape the violence and abuse by cartels in Mexico.

If we taxed and controled the sale of opiates, hallucinogens and marijuana (I could maybe add some substances to this list but, in my opinion, there is no place for meth in our society.) we could decapitate the cartel trade and much of gang-related activities. The U.S. has spent ONE TRILLION DOLLARS on the War on Drugs since President Nixion declared it in the 70′s. Think it did much to reduce drug use in this country? Didn’t think so. Why not spend money addressing mental illness and addiction and then help reduce the deficit?

When you look at the issue rationally and discard the propaganda you were fed for the past 35 plus years, it just makes sense to legalize drugs, IMO.

Jessica - posted on 07/11/2011

I am with jenny. Says it better n me.

Jenny - posted on 07/11/2011

Why would someone buy some random drug cooked up in a bathtub when they could legally buy clean, regulated drugs? Bought any bathtub gin lately? The only reason criminals sell drugs is because we created that market. There is no option B for purchase. Meth and crack would never have been invented if speed and cocaine were legal. There would have been no need.

Rosie - posted on 07/11/2011

saying a symptom of it would be people would value life less is just not true. i value life, i value ALL life, not just ones in the womb. again, bigger picture.

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

The cartels wouldn't disband...they would become businesses.

Krista - posted on 07/11/2011

And legalizing drugs would actually REDUCE much of that violence, Jennifer. There'd be no need for them to move drugs here, if people could just go and buy them the same way that they buy beer or wine.

Think about it: who prospered during Prohibition? Organized crime flourished, because they were the ONLY suppliers of something that was very much in demand.

Provide people with a safe and reliable way to access those goods, and they won't WANT to deal with the criminal element. You then effectively put that segment of their business off the market.

Jessica - posted on 07/11/2011

Abortion... I disagree but I am loath to take away from the rights of others... especially when I know women died getting illegal abortions... the same women who would get them regardless. Some of these women already have kids... so if they "do" die... well that's a tough subject. Their is a tiny, and very judgmental(we all have a spot of it in us) part of me, that is guilty of thinking like Jennifer(not that it's bad, just that I think differently and have vows to uphold on the that too) on this subject, but looking at the bigger picture... I just think it best left up to the individual. I don't like ppl telling ME what to do... and we DO have freedom of choice... so in short. As horrible as I think it is, it is not my choice to do with them what I think should be done... it is theirs.

The human trafficking here bothers me(also in AZ). When I asked why they put tracking devices on babies in the hospital, they explained it to me. apparently babies were being "trafficked" to Mexico. American babies catch a good price... and some had just up and disappeared from the hospital... janitors and what not were in on it. So the stare wells and elevators are, for lack of a better word, boobie trapped to go off should a baby leave the maternity ward unless to go home. I could not imagine life without my kids... so I did not protest, though I made sure they did not put it on too tight, but I wonder why they just don't DO something about the people doing it. I understand the whole amnesty argument, but they (the people who don't live here but think they know all about the issue) REALLY need to live here awhile. Living in MY area is like being black in the south when slavery was still legal(but with papers of course). The attitude is atrocious. The girl child next door got called an ugly white girl because she is white. You white around here, you lower than dirt, and NOT because they think we voted for the illegals to go back. Hate crimes against whites are just simply "overlooked"... but if you retaliate then you have an angry mob shouting that your racist. I can honestly say I dislike "racial pride" groups. They are the same damn thing as KKK... but just not white people. I call them hate groups. why? Because they generally just hate anything not like them, though sometimes its just white ppl(like that makes it any better). Women often usher their children away from mine like being white is a disease. I can honestly say, I did not vote at all on the immigration bill. I had no desire to touch it as I did not completely agree with either side. I do however feel the need to point out. America has neither the resources, the land, nor the obligation to keep all these people. I say keep those who earn it by learning the language and work hard to contribute... but boot out the rest.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

Ok I was with you until the abortion helps society at some point. I see your argument but another side effect of a society that accepts abortion is that life is cheap. That is the same kind of attitude that results in the most crime riddled and violent places in the world. That aside I would love to see the crime surrounding drugs decreased. I live in a border state with Meixco and seeing the violence of human traffiking and drugs moving here is awful. The violence in Meixco is much worse and their stupid government isnt doing what must be done to protect it's own people.

Rosie - posted on 07/11/2011

let mexico deal with them then ;P
the decrease in violence here would be substantial in my opinion. there's a documentary i watched about drugs, well, part of it, lol. anyway, the life of someone in the ghetto is perpetuated by drug use, lack of education, and lack of support for people there. use the money for that, and i guarantee that there would be less people on welfare, less abortions, less crime, less everything bad, lol.
it freaks me out to to think of legalizing drugs. my first emotional response is that's not so smart, more people will be using drugs etc. but if you look at the overall picture and it's effect over time you have to see that it would be a good thing.
i mean even legalizing abortion has had some impact on our society for the good. theres been studies done that since legalizing abortion crime has gone down. now i dont' feel it's solely attributed to abortion alone, but i can't help but believe that unwanted children who live in poverty are more likely to be criminals. once again big picture. nobody wants abortion, and sits around thinking it's this wonderful thing. but if you look really hard at the outcome of it, you'd see that it helps society to some degree in the long run.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

Yes I am familiar with this report. All I'm saying is that you can't supposition yourself to an actual figure. So debating numbers prior to reporting is fruitless. I don't agree that itis widely accepted the numbers didn't change. We just don't know.

As far as the violence surrounding the drug trade. I suppose some of it would decrease but not disappear. Cartels have no mind to disband or go broke. They will find another product to provide. New drugs that aren't legal. Heck they probably have enough resources now to take over Mexico if they just wanted to deal with the headache of doing it.

Rosie - posted on 07/11/2011

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/...

if you can get through it it explains how they come up with the numbers jennifer.
i actually agree that some people will try it if it is not illegal anymore. however, like laura said the criminal actuvity that would be cut down because of drugs would be substantial. what are all the people in the ghetto killing each other over? drugs. what do people steal things for? drugs. the mexican cartel, illegal immigrants coming here, crack whores looking for their next fix for sex..i honestly believe all these things would decrease substantially.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

I don't follow your argument that since we don't know the rates prior to reporting years the numbers must not have changed. If no one knows then you can't argue the rates must not have changed.

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

exactly...you don't know how many women were getting abortions before Roe V Wade. It is widely accepted that the rates have not changed much long term.

The only thing that affects OFFICIAL rates is availability. Where there may have been only one clinic that many women could not access, when another one opened up the rates would APPEAR to double.

But make no mistake...those are false numbers. Abortionist is one of the oldest professions.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

I would support a locked treatment facility for addicts rather than prison but I know in patient treatment is very expensive. Not sure which is more expensive. But I am just saying there is no easy out of addiction.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

Stats from 1973 on is what I am referencing not prior to that. Who know about before?

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

you're right...no different than prison...bit of a strawman there don't ya think? The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean that it's not WAY better than the alternative.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

Rehab is no magic bulllet. I wonder if former user who have lost years of their lives to addiction would support legalization...

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

and exactly how did they get their numbers for the abortions pre-Roe v Wade? It is widely speculated that numbers did not change drastically in the long run....they weren't exactly counting how many women used coat hangers or went to back alley butchers.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

Actually abortion rates doubles in the years after Roe v Wade and then eventually leveled out to a rate of 20 per 1000 pregnancies versus the 1973 rate of 15 per 1000. The slow decrease in the rate is attributed to changes in social attitude towards abortion.

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

but it's been proven that usage does not change with legality. Whether or not drugs are illegal makes NO difference to usage so that argument is moot.

AND rehab's gotta be cheaper than prison...if only because people come out as productive citizens instead of better criminals.

Jennifer - posted on 07/11/2011

It does seem ridiculous that someone who is in for distribution would not be able to get an education but a sex offender or other violent criminal can. The only reason I support drug addicts going to prison is because they can get treatment while there. However getting treatment involuntarily is notoriously ineffective. My hope is that thet sober up enough to participate in a program that will help them to stop.

As far as more drug use goes, that means more addicts. And then you will have people who live on financial welfare and probably get their drugs provided by the government because it certainly wouldnt be fair for poor people to not get their fix. I don't mean to be cynical bur that is what legalization looks like to me.

Jessica - posted on 07/11/2011

Population control?

*bad joke*

Isobel - posted on 07/11/2011

no...it did not "stop" abortions...the rate remained exactly the same...but women stopped dying because of it.

That's exactly my case for legalizing drugs. The number or people using stay the same...the number of people dying because of the surrounding violence goes down. How can that be a bad thing?

Karla - posted on 07/10/2011

@ Jennifer, upon further contemplation I agree with you that legalizing drugs would increase usage; I think many people who don’t want to risk getting caught using drugs now, would try them if there usage were legal. Even though I don’t think legalizing marijuana would be much different than how alcohol is regulated, I don’t think any other drugs should be legalized, because so many of them pose a much higher incidence of harmful consequences.

I firmly stand by my view that rehabilitation is very important and helpful to society. I see no reason why there should be any difference in availability based on the original infraction, and I would go so far as to say drug abusers would likely benefit more from an education then say a murderer. My reasoning is that drug abuse usually comes with a shorter prison term, and the convicted person will likely rejoin society. I’m presuming the laws are different from state to state.

Also Jennifer, since you brought it up: Upon studying the history of abortion you may be surprised to learn that experts believe legalizing it did not affect the frequency of abortion. Granted, supportable statistics are hard to come by because illegal abortions can only be estimated. At the time of Roe vs. Wade, 20 states already had some degree of legal abortion, and it is estimated that between legal, and illegal abortions the numbers were as high as in the following year when they were legal (but still not necessarily documented) everywhere. Another interesting fact is that currently the number of abortions is decreasing.

Jessica - posted on 07/10/2011

You are an unforgiving person who has never been forced to do anything you did not like.

Jennifer - posted on 07/10/2011

As far as the education in prison goes, well I think that is mostly money wasted. The purpose of prison is to pay your debt to society. I think we can safely say that you can't say prison is a place to reform people. I am sorry your friends stepson is in prison but that was a damn fool thing for him to do and now he is suffering the consequences. I hope he uses some of his God given brains to make a good life for himself when he gets out.

Jennifer - posted on 07/10/2011

Legalizing drugs would result in an increase of drug use. It always does. Move up the speed limit people will drive faster. Make a stupid medical marijuana law and now it's advertised on tv. Think abortion, did making it legal decrease abortions?

Jessica - posted on 07/10/2011

I hardly believe I am saying this as we seem to dance on the edge of agreeing and disagreeing constantly, BUT... I completely agree with Dyan.

I would however like to point out something that seems to have been vaguely touched on. Legalizing it to regulate it would be like regulating alcohol. It is done, and it is successful (for the most part). I actually think it would lessen the drug users in our society. I may be pagan but who doesn't know the story of Adam, eve, and the thing they weren't supposed to partake of (fruit from the tree of good and evil) but did anyway? Then you go to Pandora's box. She wasn''t supposed to open it... but it just was so temping, Human nature is to find that which is forbidden, temping and gloriously beautiful. Make it not forbidden anymore and it will simply not be as tempting anymore.

from the pov of a rebellious teenager I have talked to, "what fun would it be if I had no risk of being caught?" I was not like that but many are. just food for thought.

Karla - posted on 07/09/2011

Drug laws: now that’s a sticky wicket, isn’t it? I wonder if it could be treated like alcohol – regulated in production and transportation and use. My biggest problem with legalized drugs is that some parents won’t be smart about it and protect their children from it… but I guess that’s already happening. Perhaps if it were legal, then ATF (could become DAFT – lol, anyway) officials could monitor use and watch for personal and family abuses.



As far as prostitution goes, I feel like it’s on that line between porn, and selling body parts; it’s okay to be a porn star, but it’s not okay to sell your kidney. (On the other hand it’s okay to harvest your plasma and blood.)



I want to add that I believe that if we want an improved society then rehabilitation is paramount. I have no problem with prisoners taking classes and getting their GED or College diploma. I think the metaphor comparing it to punishing a child and then letting them play and have fun is faulty because studying is not usually equated with “fun,” but rather is “work” and requires a good amount of dedication and determination. (So more like sending your child to their room and having them clean the room while there.)

Jenny - posted on 07/09/2011

Yes, we should legalize prostitution also. We are free people, the government does not have authority over our persons, no matter how destructive we are to ourselves. It is only when that causes harm to others do they have a right, and obligation, to intervene. Theft, assault, murder by all means keep them illegal. A consenting adult buying a product from another consenting adult or making a living from their body, hell no.

Not one person here would likely use heroin if it was legal tomorrow. We don't use it because we don't like the results it brings and it causes harm to us, not becasue the government says don't do it. We have been educated on the results of heroin use and education is where we need to put our efforts for drug use as well.

Cigarette smoking rates have dropped dramatically due to increased education and public shame campaign. We lowered use without jailing anyone or giving gangs a cash cow. This is an effective strategy with drugs as well.

Our laws are simply not working, drugs are readily available to anyone and drug dealers don't check ID's. we need to start thinking outside of the propaganda we've been fed to deal with this issue.

ME - posted on 07/09/2011

The war on drugs is a failure...If we educate drug dealers in prison, perhaps they will have alternative life style choices when they get out.

Nearly every police officer I've met believes that cops would be safer if drugs were decriminalized and marijuana legalized...Most think it is a waste of their time and energy to arrest dealers and users when they could be protecting our citizens from violent crimes...

Isobel - posted on 07/09/2011

legalizing it does not increase use...it only decreases the violent crime surrounding it. No more drug running gangs from Mexico...if drugs became legal would you start doing them? alcohol is already legal and you don't drink so...obviously legality has a minimal affect on whether or not people take them.



Make them legal free up the space in your prisons save all the money for people whose only crime is providing a wanted service.



but you can't cause the prison builders and the wardens union lobby against it...cause the more people are in jail, the more money they make.

Jennifer - posted on 07/09/2011

Ok, well a lot of people give lots of crap (ok that's not coming out right) many people care about alcohol. I don't drink at all and I agree with Miss Swan who says rum is vile drink that turns gentlemen into cads. It's a huge industry and there is no way it's going to be outlawed. Anyway drugs are not like medicine or other things that are regulated. How do you determine who gets what, how much, who makes it, how much does it cost? Legalizing something that is unethical and immoral like drug use and prostitution only makes a partner in human degredation. I just can't see how I can get on board with that.

Rosie - posted on 07/09/2011

i actually think we SHOULD legalize prostution, and regulate it. less disease spreading, less violence towards these women, more time for law enforcement to work on real crimes like murder.

i much like you have been wary of jenny's free for all on drugs ever since i first heard it a year or so ago. the more i hear the argument for it the more it amkes sense. control and regulate drugs, get rid of (mostly get rid of) the cartels, nobody should be able to tell me what to do with my own body. nobody gives a crap about people drinking alcohol, yet that causes waaaay more damage than illegal drugs. people getting their drugs from drug "stores" means less drug wars on the street, less crime. a whole slew of other things.
if people start to think about the big picture instead of with their emotions i think alot of these problems would be on the way out the door.

Jennifer - posted on 07/09/2011

Reference to Jennie the Commie's statement about the war on drugs. Should we legalize prostitution also? I get that we have not "won" the war on drugs, but I'm not sure I want to live in a world where street drugs are legal and therefore encouraged. Exactly how would incorporation of meth, cocaine, marijuana, etc into mainstream society be helpful? I try to see the consequences for legalization but in my mind it goes to a very ugly place.

Rosie - posted on 07/09/2011

war on crime or war on drugs jennifer?

Jennifer - posted on 07/09/2011

The war on crime is a failure and needs to be stopped immediately.

Jenny - posted on 07/09/2011

The war on drugs is a failure and needs to be stopped immediately. Do we jail those who make and sell Jack Daniels for those who wish to buy it? It is supply and demand for consenting adults and not worthy of a criminal sentence.

Jessica - posted on 07/08/2011

I don't think rapists or murderers should be able to get those things in prison... or out. Drug dealers on the other hand... some do it because they have no other way to make money. I know a couple of EX dealers. they did it when they were younger.. but stopped when they were able to pay for the things they needed. Some are not like that but I think they should. while they are at it, maybe they can make it easier to get help for law abiding citizens too...

Anyhow, prison IS a school. You learn how to be a better criminal.

Traci - posted on 06/01/2009

One thing I think should happen is that all our politicians should be subject to random drug tests. Teachers, too, for that matter.



All these kooky ideas can only come from dope smokers and other various substances!



They don't have to lose their jobs, but it would give us an insight to their state of mind.



let's pass that law NOW!

JL - posted on 06/01/2009

Ha Ha, I love hearing that some from other side of the political fence are also for legalizing pot.

Traci - posted on 06/01/2009

Yes, I think that prison is a sham. They watch cable, earn degrees, demand certain kinds of foods...all on our dime. If it were up to me it would be bread and water, baby. They aren't there to be coddled, they are there because they committed a crime and need to be punished.



On the whole drug thing, I want to be more libertarian on that issue, but I just have some reservations about it. I would say legalize it all, if they would only do away with all welfare for people who do drugs and programs having to do with drug abuse. I don't want all these people doing drugs and then becoming dependent on welfare and the taxpayers foot the bil. Since nobody in our gov't is man enough to say "If you do drugs, you will not ever be eligible for any gov't assistance ever in your life", I don't think they should legalize it for now.

Lindsay - posted on 06/01/2009

My uncle was in prison for drug related stuff and he got a couple of degrees while in there. No one would hire him in that field once he got out though.
I don't think people in prison should be going to college on the tax payers dime. It's not my job to send them to college when they had every chance to do that before they went to prison and chose to be a criminal instead. I have my own kids to send to college one day.
Prison isn't meant to be fun, it's a punishment. That's like sending your kids to their rooms and allowing them to watch tv, surf the internet, and play with their toys. That's not a punishment and they don't learn anything from it.

I actually don't mind making pot legal but the rest of the drugs really mess people's lives up. So can pot but not to the same extent. The war on drugs has been a waste of time and money because they aren't getting to the actual problem of it they are just seeing the result of the problem.

Christa - posted on 05/27/2009

I don't know that much about our prison systems, but if those privileges are offered to murders etc, I don't see why they don't offer them to drug dealers. Frankly I don't think any of them should be given college classes while they are in there. It's really not fair to those of us who busted our butts to pay for our education and then these criminals get one for free because they broke the law. Not that it will really help them anyway, most companies won't hire felons regardless of their education background.



I'm not sure how effective the war on drugs is either. For one I think they need to start prosecuting the celebrities who do drugs and are caught by the paparazzi or talk about it in their interviews,(i.e. Snoop). It sends the message to the youth that these people do it so why can't I. How can we tell our children it's illegal when these famous people do it all the time, have shows made about it and the police don't do anything to them. It's hypocrisy at it's finest!



P.S. I've been meaning to tell you that your profile picture is the cutest!

Christa - posted on 05/27/2009

I don't know that much about our prison systems, but if those privileges are offered to murders etc, I don't see why they don't offer them to drug dealers. Frankly I don't think any of them should be given college classes while they are in there. It's really not fair to those of us who busted our butts to pay for our education and then these criminals get one for free because they broke the law. Not that it will really help them anyway, most companies won't hire felons regardless of their education background.



I'm not sure how effective the war on drugs is either. For one I think they need to start prosecuting the celebrities who do drugs and are caught by the paparazzi or talk about it in their interviews,(i.e. Snoop). It sends the message to the youth that these people do it so why can't I. How can we tell our children it's illegal when these famous people do it all the time, have shows made about it and the police don't do anything to them. It's hypocrisy at it's finest!



P.S. I've been meaning to tell you that your profile picture is the cutest!