Well crap...

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Isobel - posted on 01/23/2010

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I don't understand why people are considering this vote in Mass, a vote against Obama. I could've called it from all the way up here...a handsome, well spoken, Kennedy-esque man won...it was a vote FOR him (or against Cokley sp?) not a vote of the American people against Obama. I don't understand why EVERY election EVERYWHERE has become about proving everybody hates Obama.



And yes...most insurance companies cover abortions (medical or not) I recommend that if you truly feel that abortion is a deal breaker in the HRC...You should go find yourself an insurance company that doesn't cover them either. Good luck with that.

Esther - posted on 01/21/2010

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AMEN Mary Elizabeth. I cannot tell you how sorry I am for the situation you are in and your family is in. If there is anything at all that I can do, PLEASE do let me know. I don't have much money but I'm happy to chip in what I can. I would happily send you clothes that Lucas has outgrown but I see that Miles & Lucas are pretty much the same age so that wouldn't work.

It is incredibly unfair that people are put into situations like this. And I cannot STAND the fact that neither side seems to be able to rise above petty partisanship, greed, power lust & ideology and just do what is RIGHT for a change. This is not some abstract exercise. It's not about coming up with the perfect bill. The bill will never be perfect. And there will always be people who feel that this provision or that provision should have been different. Can they PLEASE for once take a look at the bigger picture? People need help. Desperately. They need it now. They don't need perfect help. They don't need it 15 years from now. They need whatever help they can get immediately.

They LOST like a billion dollars in Iraq a few years back. Litterally lost. Real money. Bills that were on crates and were "misplaced". And all the people who are yelling now barely raised an eyebrow about that.

And all those people who think of themselves and themselves alone and believe they have great coverage (until they lose it or their insurance company tells them that the procedure they need is "experimental" and they won't pay for it) stand on their high & mighty soap boxes complaining about how the bill isn't perfect. How we need "more time". As if many decades haven't been wasted already.

As for how the bill doesn't specify every procedure that is or isn't covered; it's not an insurance policy. It's a health care bill. I can't even get a full list of everything that is and is not covered from my insurance company for crying out loud.

ME - posted on 01/25/2010

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I apologize if my joke was taken personally, I was trying to lighten the mood, and it was in direct response to something Amie said, and not directed AT anyone. I will try to refrain from using wit in the future...it doesn't always translate well. As for the idea that my husband doesn't provide for our family...I won't dignify that with a response... but, given the painful, and frightening situation that my family is in right now (about which I have been very open)...more heartlessness from conservatives only proves my point.

In response to the "taxes" issue...Canadians DO know how their tax dollars are spent...If they know that 3600 $ per year (approx.) goes toward health care...then that is the social program we are debating here...we are NOT debating how or where the rest of their tax dollars are spent...if we are, then once again, I would be happy to point out how much money our country has pumped into a failed and unnecessary war on drugs (600$ per second currently, and we've been "fighting" for decades), not to mention the deficit we have accrued in two completely UNPAID for wars that we are still currently fighting. There are several other government programs that I DO NOT support, even tho my tax dollars always have. Just because Canadians have other social programs that require tax money, doesn't mean that their health care costs are higher than ours. They are, in fact, LOWER, for equal or (for the millions of uninsured americans) better than ours! That is the debate here...Americans get crappy health care, or the cost of it is inflated, or they get none...we have NO GOOD health care in this country...unless of course you are on medicare or tricare, both of which I have heard VERY good things about from the vast majority of people who use them.

Jenny - posted on 01/24/2010

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"Before my husband was laid off, we paid about $4000 in premiums for a family of 4. If we had to go to the doctor it was a $20 co-pay. My husband had his dental issues fixed last year (thank you TriCare) and had his wisdom teeth pulled and we paid about $1000 for that out of pocket. However, he made a pretty decent living, and we paid nowhere near $40,000 in taxes. I am thrilled that he is going back to his original company, and I will happily pay the premiums again."



So you paid 500 more than we did for the entire year yet still have to shell out 20 bucks for a doctor visit. I had about 10 visits throughout the year for various things (mainly pediatrician checkups, allergies, stiches for my partner in the ER, and a rash) and paid nothing extra. I'm just trying to really hammer this point. It is possible to pay less money for more care under a universal system. Time and time again this is proving to be true.



Can ANYONE out there demonstrate to be paying less for equal to more care? Anyone?

Isobel - posted on 01/22/2010

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I'm sorry...your system is a freakin mess. EVERY statement that people on the right have made is a joke..."I'd love to feel sorry for you but...I don't want to pay more taxes:...It sucks that 35 000 0000 people have no health care "cause I don't want to pay more tax"

I am curious...Canadians...how much do you pay for your health care...I (for one)have NO FREAKIN IDEA)... but I DO know that statistically it is less than Americans...life goes on...and yet...when me or my baby needs medicine...we have it. If I got my arm chopped off by an axe...they would re-attatch it.

Grow past your two party bull shit, and fix your system!

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Dana - posted on 01/26/2010

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Sara, I did get rid of it but, if you quote it it's kinda stuck here. I would also like to add.....Christa, I would at least thought I had 3/4 of a brain.

Isobel - posted on 01/26/2010

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If you have something to say, then contribute, if you have nothing constructive to add...butt out.

ME - posted on 01/26/2010

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I think this conversation might be getting out of control ladies...I specifically apologized for any confusion and pointed out that my comment was directed AT no one, and yet, I've just been called names again. "Snarky" I am not...nor am I functioning on half a brain. This WAS an interesting debate, but I don't think I will be participating in it anymore...thanks for ruining it for me.

Kelly - posted on 01/25/2010

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See, that is what I don't understand. Why all of a sudden is it a health care crisis? Nothing has changed from when Clinton tried to get government run healthcare passed. So why weren't people up in arms for the last decade like they are right now about healthcare?

I agree Joy, and I believe I have stated over and over again, Obama is only one part of the problem we have right now. (in my opinion) CONGRESS is where the blame lies, Obama's biggest con is that he allows Pelosi and Reid to use him as a puppet. I don't really blame HIM for anything, the people he has chosen to surround himself with in his administration and the House Speaker and Majority Leader are the ones making the decisions. All he has done is prove he knows how to read off a teleprompter.

And people not having jobs prevents people from paying their bills. So to me, that should be the top priority. I have said it a million times and I will say it one more, I do believe that healthcare needs to be reformed. I just don't believe it is the absolute number one priority right now.

Isobel - posted on 01/25/2010

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ahhhh, Joy...another problem with the 18th century business model (bureaucracy)...one man (or woman) is ultimately held responsible, either for the successes or failures of the entire entity.



And you're right I think, Jenny, anybody who thinks that the financial success of the middle class of America should be held first (or close to it) fixing the health care crisis should probably be pretty close to the top of the list (even if it is only for economic and not moral reasons)

Jenny - posted on 01/25/2010

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Isn't health care the number one source of bankruptcies in the US right now? I'd say that's a big reason to put reform at the very top of the to do list in these economic times.

JL - posted on 01/25/2010

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I agree they have ALL failed us and it would be nice if people were more willing to compromise rather than retreat to the blame game which is happening on both sides...because everytime something happens whether it is bad weather or a crappy bill lately I hear people blaiming Obama for everything that does and does not happen. HELLO Congress is where we should be focusing our energy because they are the ones representing us and working on the bills that will reform this nation and they are the ones letting special interests/lobbying big money corporations pull the strings.

Isobel - posted on 01/25/2010

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I disagree...I think that Brown is a charming, handsome, moderate and Cokley(sp?) is an ass...that's what that election represented...I don't see why people keep trying to make it about Obama...I think Mass loved the Kennedys more than they loved democrats...and Brown reminds me more of the Kennedys than Cokley...that much is certain!

Kelly - posted on 01/25/2010

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I know that I shouldn't reply when I am mad, it gets nothing accomplished, and for that I apologize Amie. I let a snarky remark get under my skin, and I will try to take the higher road next time.

The economic point I was trying to get across however, is really that simple. I put up the state of PA as a perfect example. They are currently in the process of opening up 32,000 acres of state owned land known as the Marcellus Shale. They are slated to create approx. 30,000 jobs in the next few months, and over 100,000 in the next decade. That is just one state. We have some of the largest known natural gas pockets in the western states, primarily the Dakotas, Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah. The problem there is that most of the land is BLM, in other words, controlled by the federal government. One of the first things the Obama administration did after takeover was suspend the leases that were granted under Bush, primarily in Utah and Wyoming. All this has acomplished is raising energy prices in an already depressed economy. If those leases were opened back up, thousands of jobs would be created practically overnight, and prices would begin to go down. I speak from personal experience on this issue, we just left Wyoming and are in the process of moving to Pennsylvania.

My point is that healthcare is not what the government needs to focus on right now. It needs reform, we are all in agreement of that. I think it is safe to say we are all in agreement that the proposed healthcare bill has nothing in common with the current government run system in Canada. I just personally think that jobs are what is needed most right now, here, today. I am not trying to change anyone's mind, I know the purpose of debate. I am simply trying to convey WHY I feel the way I do, and I think its a cop-out to say that conservatives are either gloating, or happy that there are millions of uninsured. I am of the opinion that the election of Scott Brown was a clear message to Washington. Not that Mass. is all of the sudden a conservative state, because they most certainly are not. People are fed up with what the current administration and Congress have done (or more precisely what they have failed to do) and the time for "blame" is over. Is that going to be the excuse 3 years from now too? Bush left such a mess, blah blah blah........ Get over it, grow some balls and get the job you were elected for done. Otherwise, get ready to step down and let someone with a fresh view take over. All of Congress should be scared right now, Republican and Democrat. They have ALL failed us.

Isobel - posted on 01/25/2010

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I think math and economics ARE hard...then again, I suppose I am the only one taking exams on the two topics as of late.

The problem with America's (and Canada's) government is that they are attempting to run a 21st century business (and a country IS a business) on an 18th century model. Most businesses today are in the midst of transitioning out of the bureaucratic system...it is clumsy and tiresome. It does not allow enough communication (up AND down the chain).

The reason that there is always a jobless recovery period following any recession/depression (from what I understand) is because big companies LOVE recessions...it gives them an opportunity to cut their fat and move towards a flatter system (away from bureaucracy) without the layoffs costing them a nightmare in PR.
It always takes a certain amount of time for the banks and entrepreneurs to catch up.

I'm afraid it's true that the citizens of most countries with UHC pay much less than Americans for their health care. There are several reasons for this...one is economy of scale (one big buyer gets a much better price than several smaller ones...that's why Walmart and Target are sooo successful).

The fact that people whose government provides health care don't have to panic when they are off their feet for a little while shouldn't upset those who are currently ON their feet. I suppose I understand the fact that you (having never experienced UHC) believe that Health care is not a right...is it so much to ask that you TRY to see why those of us who have ALWAYS had it think that it is? At the moment I am a student and not paying into the system...when I am finish school and get a job I will be proud and happy to pay extra for those who need it.

JL - posted on 01/24/2010

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I just want to say that I have for most of my life been on Tricare...NO problems here. I have never had to wait more than 2 days for an appointment with mine or my kids PM. Both of my kids see pediatricians who are lovely knowledgable doctors.They go out of there way to be available all the time and they are military doctors. I adore my PM she is a female health specialists who is retired from the Army. I had great OBGYN's who stood by my decisions and were very helpful. THe only issue I may have is the wait sometimes at the pharmacy but other than that I have never had horrific situations. I have never waited more than 3 hours in an ER and I have never felt like I was not getting quality care.



If I have a complaint or feel like I am not being taken care of properly I know where the patient advocacy office is, I know my rights under Tricare Prime and I know how to stand up for myself and demand better care. I have never had huge problems with military doctors or military hospitals. I have had doctors I thought lacked empathy but I immediately requested a new one and got a new one no issue at all. I made myself familiar with the way the system works and I am aware of what Tricare does and does not cover.



Whever we move we research and shop around for dentists and always fing an amazing one that takes Tricare.My hubby has never had horrible issues with his dental care which is provided by military dentists, but then again he tells them straight up you screw up my teeth and I rip you a new one.

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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Oh and Also Kelly I will warn you as well right now. Just because you get upset about Mary's remark does not give you the right to imply in kind either.

If all you can resort to is name calling, making fun of people, and "Capitalizm and Religion are the root of all evil" there is no point in trying to have an intelligent discussion.


Just because people have differing views and opinions does not mean they are not intelligent.

Nor was there any need for this

Maybe it makes you feel better about your own situation to imply I am stupid Mary Elizabeth. It makes me feel good to know my husband is willing to do whatever it takes to get and keep a job, and provide for our kids.


You do not know that her husband has not been doing everything under the sun to provide for them. So do not imply so. It is very rude and uncalled for.

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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Kelly just because you get frustrated doesn't mean you can't debate. A debate is not about changing a person's mind. I thought this had been established already.

No one is trying to make you feel stupid. I do agree Mary's comment was uncalled for. I am sorry I missed it. I will delete it and Mary please try to refrain from such remarks in the future. It is considered flaming.

I can not comment further on the economics aspect since it has been a few years since I took courses in it. I DO know we have at least one member who is up to date and current on it through her schooling and she may wish to take the thought further if she wishes. It is NOT as simple as you are trying to make it out to sound though.

There are very few members (in fact I can only think of one) who has ever said or implied capitalism and religion are the root of all evil. She has not said anything of that nature in awhile either. Even still she is entitled to THAT opinion because that is how she believes things to be.

Kelly - posted on 01/24/2010

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Sorry Jenny, but you are not paying less if your taxes are higher. I don't run to the doctor every time I get the sniffles, and our well care checks, immunizations etc. were covered 100% no co-pay. I will gladly pay $500 more for the year in premiums to not have to pay higher taxes for other social programs.

As far as "recession recovery"....... Our government has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of well paying jobs right now. We spent almost $500 billion on foreign oil in 2008 alone. The Dept. of Energy did a study released in 2007 that showed building out our wind capacity would create over 100,000 jobs in year 1, and 3.4 million jobs over the next 10 years. Added bonus would be that about 20% of our energy would be provided by wind power. Solar expansion would increase those numbers. Not to mention, if the Govt. would release the frozen leases they currently hold for natural gas, there are thousands more high paying jobs.

So snipe away ladies. Maybe it makes you feel better about your own situation to imply I am stupid Mary Elizabeth. It makes me feel good to know my husband is willing to do whatever it takes to get and keep a job, and provide for our kids. As far as comparing Canada's healthcare to ours, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Obviously we are opposite on this issue, and there is no reason to keep on going in circles. Sorry if you don't like what I have to say, I can see why other conservatives have given up trying to debate with you people. If all you can resort to is name calling, making fun of people, and "Capitalizm and Religion are the root of all evil" there is no point in trying to have an intelligent discussion.

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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I never said he lied. I said I find it hard to believe, especially the no doctors aspect. /:) That's rubbish. Sorry but it is.

Germany well ok I don't know anything about the german run system so I can't really say one way or the other about it. But that's rubbish that the military left one of their own men in substandard care for so long.

Italy, was it a language barrier? They speak Italian there, was he fluent at 17 and able to fully tell them that he felt a shard? That it wasn't just discomfort that there was something in there?

As Laura pointed out no one gets substandard care, you have to pay for it, and you still missed the entire point. Mistakes can happen ANYWHERE. It is not solely in UHC systems.

I also said the Canada vs. US remark exactly for the reason Laura said, more times than not that is what these debates turn into.

With all that said, I still believe in the idea of Health care reform in the states. It is SORELY needed. There are aspects of the bill that need work (ex. pre-existing conditions will be wiped but there is no language saying that insurance companies can't charge you through the nose for it) there are aspects that are very good (co-pays and deductibles will be wiped for recommended preventative care) also. It is about balance. I DO NOT agree with spending at leisure. Just because I am liberal does not mean I think the government should spend whatever they want whenever they want. That is something many many conservatives seem to think all liberals want. The way the government works in the states I do not think UHC would be a good idea in the states at this time or in the near future. There is little to no accountability, the people have lost their voices and there are just way too many things wrong, with the entire government. I HAVE stated this before.

Isobel - posted on 01/24/2010

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"Unless a person is a full fledged citizen of one of these nations that has been through it all, from serious life threatening issues (which have happened more than once in my family and to myself) to the mundane, you really can't know what it's like."

No, guests get full care, just the same as everyone who lives here...they just have to pay for it. What you can't understand is the peace of mind that comes from knowing it's a non-issue. I know people who have been within inches of their lives and received life-saving treatments that would have bankrupted many families in other countries.

I still don't get the higher taxes argument...If the higher taxes are still LESS than you are already paying for health care (through your insurance payments and your taxes that cover those who don't and never will pay their medical bills) taxes actually go down when everybody is covered...I know it sounds wrong, but it's more complicated than people are making it out to be. (The reason that medicare and medicaide are such a mess is because they ONLY service the highest risk- the old and the poor)

I think the Canada/US thing that we are trying to avoid is the fact that previous discussions on this topic have boiled over with anti-Canada and anti-American sentiments...nobody wants that again.

Kelly - posted on 01/24/2010

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I sat there and had the conversation with my mom's doctor, what reason would he have to lie? Germany was a German hospital, they were out on a training exercise and he was later transported back to the base. Italy, they SAID they cleaned it out, but missed a chunk as long as a chapstick. He told them he could feel it, and they sewed it up anyway. Were that to happen now, he probably would have fought them on it, but at 17, he let them sew it up.

I don't recall ever saying it was a Canada v. US thing, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. your other statement, "Unless a person is a full fledged citizen of one of these nations that has been through it all, from serious life threatening issues (which have happened more than once in my family and to myself) to the mundane, you really can't know what it's like." all I can say is wow. So if you are a visitor, or a non-citizen you should expect sub-standard care. Guess that's why the US is being bombarded with immigrants, they know they can go to the ER here and get actual treatment. I think the main point that everyone is missing is that the proposed health care reform IS NOT like the "wonderful" gov. run system you have in Canada. It is a fiscally irresponsible beast that liberals are trying to ram through. That is not ok with me, or with many other concerned Americans. It is not being selfish, its being responsible.

If you are perfectly happy paying high taxes, knock yourself out. I am glad you are happy with the quality of life you get for paying them. I am not willing to give my government any more of our families hard earned money until they can prove they can be responsible with it. And frankly, I am tired of others thinking I am a "bad" person for feeling that way.

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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One other point, historically it's been proven that after a recession ends that there is a period of recovery known as a "jobless recovery" that could take months, to years, to fully catch up and have jobs where they once were. It's nothing that the government can speed up on its own. It just is what it is.. economics.

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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Kelly no offense but that sounds not entirely true. No where are ALL doctors gone on a holiday at the same time. Not even in UHC systems. There are always doctors at hospitals, there are also always doctors on call to help if they get over run. It also depends on where you are but there are some nurses that can authorize meds.

It's not just military dentists either that screw up. Even when you pay out of pocket you run the risk of getting shoddy work. I know my dentist doesn't because I picked mine from referrals by friends.

I also don't understand this about the Germany case you mentioned. Was it a military hospital with American doctors?

In Italy did they try to remove all the glass and just miss a few shards? That too can happen by accident even in the US and other countries.

I think the biggest thing is that people think we have no choice. We here (with UHC systems) can pick whatever doctor, dentist, optometrist that we want. They have to provide quality care if they expect repeat patients because we can and do just pick up and leave to another doctor. You also seemed to miss the entire point of what I posted. We pay a lot in taxes but we also benefit greatly from it. From our UHC down to our other social programs. Canadians (and other nations) enjoy a great quality of life. I have more than enough in savings, my RRSP, I have a life insurance policy (as does my husband), our kids have college funds, bonds (something new we just purchased), etc. The list goes on for quite some time.

It's not a Canada vs. US thing either. So don't think that, that seems where everybody's minds go. It is pointing out that the millions of Canadians, British, French, Australians, etc. that DO have UHC systems are happy with them and are rightly so. We live in them, we were raised in them, we know they work. It's not like ANY system in the states. It's really not. So there is no real basis for comparison. Unless a person is a full fledged citizen of one of these nations that has been through it all, from serious life threatening issues (which have happened more than once in my family and to myself) to the mundane, you really can't know what it's like. THAT has been the point I've been trying to say for a long time but apparently I need to be blunt and rude.

Sorry Dana... as your mod I know you expect more but this is really getting tiring.

Kelly - posted on 01/24/2010

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As far as Mass. goes, focus groups of voters have stated they voted for Brown because they are not happy with the concentration on Heathcare when JOBS should be the number one concern right now. And the state is having trouble with their budget since healthcare is costing more than they expected (big shock there) which would happen nationally if this reform were to be passed. Congress needs to wake up, focus on the really important stuff first, (getting Americans back to work) cut up our Chinese credit card, and devise a reform bill that is fiscally responsible. Then they could expect bipartisan support.

Kelly - posted on 01/24/2010

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Noelle is by far not the only one that has issues with TriCare. My family, husband, and friends that have experienced TriCare have had many issues with it. My husbands teeth are a mess from military dentists that ground out his teeth and put in bad fillings. One of my girlfriends had some serious female problems and almost had to have a hysterectomy by the time she was able to see a specialist and get what she needed from the military. One of my husbands friends was in an accident when they were based in Germany. He went to see him a couple of days after the accident, and his buddy was still covered in dried blood, had received no painkillers, and his broken bones hadn't been set yet. My moms doctor just relayed his experience with England's healthcare system and how he almost lost his mother. She was visiting his brother that lives in London, and she had a stroke. Because she was 70, they stuck her in a hallway and didn't even look at her for 3 days. He flew over and tried to talk to a doctor, but they were all gone on a 3 day weekend "holiday." Only nursing staff was available, and they couldn't authorize meds. So after a week of sitting around NOT being seen, he finally got her released and flew her home to the States. That she survived at all is a slight miracle, and her recovery has been severely hampered because she wasn't treated right after her stroke. When I was in Europe after HS, one of my friends sliced his hand open on a broken glass in a club. The hospital in Italy sewed his hand up with glass still embedded, and by the time he got back home, it was severely infected and he almost lost the use of some fingers. These are just some examples of PERSONAL experiences, not crap from the internet or news.

Before my husband was laid off, we paid about $4000 in premiums for a family of 4. If we had to go to the doctor it was a $20 co-pay. My husband had his dental issues fixed last year (thank you TriCare) and had his wisdom teeth pulled and we paid about $1000 for that out of pocket. However, he made a pretty decent living, and we paid nowhere near $40,000 in taxes. I am thrilled that he is going back to his original company, and I will happily pay the premiums again.

Mary Elizabeth, I disagree that SECURITY includes healthcare. The governments role needs to be from a regulatory standpoint, to ensure that people aren't screwed over by insurance companies. This is what needs to be reformed. High-risk pool and reinsurance reform, better access to group policies for small business owners, and inter-state insurance would go a long way to driving down the costs of insurance. I'm sorry, but from my personal experience and that of my friends and family, our private healthcare providers in the US are superior to any that I have seen anywhere else. I don't want to loose that. I also think its slightly hypocritical for you all to brush off Noelle's comments and just ask why she doesn't buy private insurance. Some are so hell bent on getting "free" healthcare they can't see how bad it could be down the road. Isn't that just as selfish as those who aren't excited about paying more taxes and putting our country in even more debt?

Amie - posted on 01/24/2010

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I think Mary brings up a good point. The way I understand it with military families is this.
Only the person serving has to take tricare. Any family member not enlisted can say no and get private if they so wish. So (unless you are enrolled in the military as well Noelle) why don't you have private insurance?

ME - posted on 01/24/2010

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....by the way...the US spends 600$ per second on the failed war on drugs...anyone out there want to bet that a fraction of that money would pay for health coverage for all americans who need it?

ME - posted on 01/24/2010

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I think it's deplorable that the repubs and bluedogs have made this about abortion. We have a LAW against federal funds going to towards abortions...we don't need another one...particularly NOT an irrelevant one that keeps millions of people, including millions of children, from getting the health care and SECURITY (a responsibility of the government, no?) they deserve! It sickens me that other human beings are SO selfish that they refuse to recognize the position they are putting us in with this misguided fight against our nations poor, or recently unemployed, or chronically ill...what have these people done to them, and why are they so hateful and angry toward them? Whys are they so defensive of these HUGE "health" corporations who really CAN defend themselves (I promise), while some of the rest of us cannot! Noelle, you are also the first person i've EVER heard complain about free health care...I would love to know/understand what issues you have with it, and why you don't choose to purchase private insurance instead if it is so terrible?

Dana - posted on 01/23/2010

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Noelle, I've got TONS of family in the Military. It's the family business practically. I've NEVER heard any of them complain about their health care. It really bothers me to hear someone say people shouldn't get federal health care when they're on it.....Maybe you don't know how good you've got it.

Jenny - posted on 01/23/2010

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Well consider yourself the first person I've heard of that was not happy with the military's health care system. Now my next question would be, why does it suck? What are you expecting and what are you receiving?



BTW we paid about 3500 total into health care last year for a family of four with two working parents and an above average income, how much did you? That's not just for Noelle but anyone paying into health care via taxes or permiums.

Noelle - posted on 01/23/2010

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As I am ON Socialized medicine (my hubby is in the Military) I can tell you FIRST HAND that it sucks! The only thing the fed needs to do is take care of taxes and defense. We are NOT entitled to health care...I am sorry that families go through tough times- trust me, been there done that. I was 4 months pregnant w/ baby 3 and a deployable hubby, one home for sale and w/ a transfer, renting. Soooo....I went back to work to make ends meet. It was so tough...having to tell people who call, "Well I can either pay you or feed my kids". Obviously, I chose to feed my kids. We made too much for gov't assistance. The Navy did not care that we couldn't sell our home. Their exact response was, "Your husband could have gone w/o you". Idiots (the Navy) No, he couldn't they didn't offer quarters to E-6 and above...so either way we were screwed. It simply wasn't the government's responsiblity! Mass is about bankrupt b/c of the FAILED healthcare system and we are well on our way...

Noelle - posted on 01/23/2010

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Um...last I checked, Bush wasn't adding upwards of 1.3 T per year (and it's looking a lot higher). In his first year it was less than half of that.

Jenny - posted on 01/23/2010

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That is not true Noelle. Government does a fine job with healthcare (save for the US currently). I love my system (Canada) and most of my fellow citizens do to.



Perhaps if you had experience with government running UHC/single payer you would be singing a different tune. Upwards of 90% of our citizens would not give up our system for anything, surely that must mean they're doing SOMETHING right?



You try going to the doctor when you need care and getting an operation when you need one. You try having a child YOUR way be it C section or widwife in your own home. You try all that without taking your wallet with you. Try getting any test done that you need, diagnostic or otherwise. Then let's have a discussion on accessible health care.

Dana - posted on 01/23/2010

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I said the fact that the people of Massachusetts voted in a Republican so they could keep their state run health care was a disgrace. Were you so vehement about our deficit when President Bush was in office?

I'd like to see you all make that clear in 2012 btw, :)

Noelle - posted on 01/23/2010

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The government has no place involving itself in healthcare! Especially not the Federal Governement and we'll see that made clear in 2012! It's not a disgrace, it needs to be handled differently. I refuse to hand my kids a 10 Trillion plus deficit!

Dana - posted on 01/23/2010

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Noelle, the majority voted in a Republican because they don't want their state run health care to be taken over by government, it was a totally selfish move on their part. Plain and simple. It's a disgrace.

Dana - posted on 01/23/2010

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Amie, I did read your entire post. Maybe you misunderstood mine when I said "as *is* said", I was referring to your prior post. I do appreciate you saying it to everyone, I just thought the comment about Americans would take this thread in another direction that I did not think it needed to go.

Noelle - posted on 01/23/2010

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I agre with you for the most part. Obviously, the majority voted in a Republian b/c they do not like what the Dems are/have doing/done. As for the abortion part, private insurers don't generally pay for abortions that aren't medically necessary. As I am covered by TriCare, I know that they don't cover abortion unless medically necessary. I actually wouldn't take insurance if it covered abortion "on demand". I know that people whose only options are "COBRA" are in a bad place. I also know that no matter what is decided someone is going to be out in the cold. You just can't make everyone happy! So you are right, majority rules...and in MA the majority chose Brown...

Amie - posted on 01/23/2010

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Noelle I understand about the buying votes issue. That is not representative of what any free country should be like.

The abortion aspect though, Someone has pointed out before. There are private insurers that carry plans that cover abortion now. So in a way if you are with that company, since all the money is pooled and used as people need it for whatever, are you still not already paying for abortions in some aspect? Just because it's not you holding the policy that covers abortion does not mean that money you are putting into the pool isn't being used.

Common ground can be found but everyone does need to realize too that not everything will be "ok" with the masses. With a population of 300+ million it would be impossible to write a bill where everyone agreed was good enough to pass. The best people can hope for is the majority agreeing. That's what democracy and a free country is though. Screw the minority who don't agree (in a sense), the majority rules.

Noelle - posted on 01/23/2010

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As the wife of a sailor, we have the joy of "socialized" medicine. People who have pressing issues now will be going through so much red tape that they'll be in no better place regardless of the current "health care reform". It needs to be fixed, BUT not the way it reads now. Buying votes, paying for abortion...there needs to be a common ground and a better way!

Amie - posted on 01/23/2010

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Dana if you had read my entire post you would have understood what I was saying. I recognized Laura's upset and I do agree with her because I am an outsider looking in.
WE don't have these issues because of our system. It pisses us off that there are people who honestly think that any type of UHC is going to cause everyone to go broke or ruin a country or death panels or any of the other BS I've heard the entire year this health care debate has been going on.

Laura thank you for apologizing. =)

Mary my heart goes out to your family I can not imagine being in your position. I hope you guys see the light at the end of the tunnel soon.

ME - posted on 01/23/2010

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Kelley...Thank you for apologizing...It's hard NOT to get emotional about this because it IS so very personal right now...for A LOT of people. My point WAS that some of the provisions that were slated to go into effect immediately WOULD have helped millions of people...I am aware that most of the bill would not have gone into effect immediately. As I said, I've researched this thouroughly. Now we will go on being fearful of my degenerative disc disease acting up, and never being covered again...just like millions of people around the country will go on being fearful of their pre-existing conditions. In the meantime, insurance co's will raise costs on the privately insured by another 13-20% next year, and the republicans (and apparently the supreme court as well) will go on defending the rights of big business over the rights of individuals, because that's what our democracy seems to be all about...that's what all those "real" americans (ie, teabaggers) want...I would LOVE to pay 3600$/year total for health care no matter what happens to me or any member of my family...we paid that much out of pocket for Miles birth AFTER paying for my deductible, my prenatal care, my meds, and a percentage of lots of tests, etc....then (because he was born in FEB) all those payments started all over again...Imagine if my 3600 would have covered myself, and helped to cover others...what a wonderful gift to my fellow citizens. The conservatives are always suggesting that we don't read or understand the reform
bill(s)...which is, of course, ignorant and presumptive (many of us have read and researched EVERY one of them). The real problem is that the scare tactics on the right, not to mention from the insurance co's., are working on the uneducated, uninformed, easily misled...UHC is NOT scary, and it won't destroy our "democracy"...I don't know anyone living under UHC who has a problem with it...I know MANY people living with big business insurance who HATE it...lets do the math...

Dana - posted on 01/23/2010

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Okay, wait here, I don't think it's fair to say that Americans are taking it more emotional, when Laura's post cleary is heated, as *is* said. I just don't think we need to make it a Canada vs US thing with our feelings now. lol

Amie - posted on 01/23/2010

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I think everyone is getting overly emotional. Especially you Americans because it is hitting close to home. In one aspect or another.

This however doesn't mean we need to get abusive in any way with each other. Thank you Kelley for apologizing and as Dana said, we were just trying to nip it in the bud. It's been a pretty civil place lately and we'd like to keep it that way.

Laura, you're getting pretty vehement too and I understand. (just be careful =P) It sickens me sitting here, reading these stories from real people. Not to mention the lack of understanding of how our system really works.

Canada's system is complex but it does work. Is it perfect? NO! That's ludicrous, I don't think any system can be deemed perfect because there will always be someone with some complaint about one aspect or another.

A little personal insight. My husband and I fall into a larger tax bracket because of how much we make. Last year alone we paid just under $40,000 in income taxes. Yes $40,000. I don't feel overly emotional about it. It just is what it is. But of that only 9% goes towards our UHC here. So it works out to about $3,600. How many Americans pay that price (just that no co-pays for each visit, no out of pocket expense for tests that "aren't covered", etc.) for a family of 6?

Not only that but because of the province I live in dental appointments and eye appointments are covered through the provincial government for all kids under 18. (something that is not covered through our UHC) But we also have extended benefits through my husband's work. We still have to pay for them, it comes off his check. It's $40 a month. The kids are 100% covered, my husband and I are 80% covered. This means that their medication is paid for, their eye glasses, any extra dental work outside of regular appointments, etc. For my husband and myself we pay 20% of the things I just listed.

Now I am not advocating for UHC in the states. With the two party BS that keeps going on, lobbyists, the corruption and no real accountability on either side, I don't think it would work as the government stands now. Maybe one day it would but right now it wouldn't.

Reform is desperately needed in the states though. That much is very apparent. Will this bill fix everything? No, but waiting for it to do that will cause a lot of harm to a lot of families. Yes it will be expensive at first, Yes a lot of the major changes won't take place right away but there will be some provisions that take effect as soon as the bill is signed, the cost will eventually level off and it will be just business as usual. I have not yet seen one graph to show long term cost of this bill, I have seen short term 10 year graphs. Which is BS. OF COURSE the first few years where the changes are being made, when people are running out of the gate to get covered, the influx of sick who NEED it but don't have it now, those are just a few factors that will drive up the cost in the short term but will eventually drive down the cost in the future.

Preventative care! NOT reactive.

Dana - posted on 01/22/2010

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It's okay Kelley. No one is mad, we just wanted to nip it in the bud before too much negativity was thrown around. You're not going to get flagged or into any trouble for saying pissed, either.



Have you tried looking into a dental school to have work done? I'm actually going to a dental school for all my dental work. I live near Cleveland so it's a good school and the cost is 1/3 of the cost it would be at a regular dentist. The student working on me is in his third year of Dental school, that doesn't include total years of schooling, it's 3 years of actually working with teeth. Try and look into something like that if you can.

Kelley - posted on 01/22/2010

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mom's, I just hate the fact that my ill-statement got in the way of what I want everyone to go look and be your own best judge.

(saying this very light hearted....) You guys have had some pretty harsh 'isms' with me, FYI, i have learned from this. if it's impotant enough to share then it's important enough to say is with intelligence...Dad told me once that destrctive words only become a crutch for some who loses their ability to be well spoken....right after he said......"what the **** happened to your room?"..(just kidding about the last part : )

Kelley - posted on 01/22/2010

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Dear moms,

I'm so incredibly nervous to share this with you, and if by chance I actually post it, it is being done so through tears...



Amy your right I do need to breath. My heart hanging here in my throat is stifling and has been stifling my breathing all day (no pun intended).



So let me begin with sending out an apology to you all, and to you Mary..."sorry"

I do want help, my # one health fear is losing my teeth or having them break more than they have. Currently I'm fighting to help get coverages and working stategies to get 2nd insurance discount plans to help my 18yr old get root canal, wisdom theeth removed and more...I've already sent one into adulthood that has severe pain because of paerwork issues and a nurse whooo....(whoosa, breath, breath, breath) but because she screwed up the info. my oldest now suffers and I watch and ache, and well it's sad. Because of fear and billing and insurance issues my 9yr old had to have a maor filling that if I hadn't allowed myself to feel crippled by fear and fees, it should have never gotten to that point, and then there's me and there's still issues to fix and I've been limping temporary fixes along for probably 3yrs now, and the ($) just aren't there not now.



Do you remember a time when two people with coverage and the 1st usually got 80% and then the 2nd picked up the remaining??? What happened!? Did these companies colectively have a summit and say well that's not goin to happen any more? Seriously?

IF they had a clue rather than singularily greed on the brain they'd get their crap back together! Why isn't this evident...People are PISSED (please don't flag me for the urination word...I'm being nice- really i have better words :) really, more $'s and for what more denials and less benefits...Does anyone also remember when as a female in your general health care (ob/gyn or delivering general practitioners) that getting pregnant was part of her design?, and that this wasn't a shocking add-on policy??? really does somebody remember this? it's these knids of things that have brought us off our chairs and angry. Hospitals that charge 400% above a normal fee fo things like cats scans because it's how they compensate for non-payment patients...our insurance company actually sent the hospital a bill saying because of this known abuse against insurance co.s' that it wouldn't pay that inflated charge so of course they still passed it on to us.

anyway, alot of brokenisms...if I can make up a word for it.

I really want more ideas from our legislature, and then please let us choose/vote even offer...A or B or C plans, we all have such differing needs, and not one superior, just more specific. anyway- just thinking here.

Kelley...breathing, and very sorry Mary, there are many hurts, I don't want to make it worse.



I'm not going to be able to come out with it...what has me so upset, but I will message.



BY The Way:

Mary, a few years ago my dad went through baldder cancer and surgery/chemo', but we also sought out and alternative means of treatment. And where they were going to remove his bladder /colostamy, and then were taking about removing a kidney the other option litterally brought him back 100 %. If you think you would want to have more details please message (or 'U' could just have me 'shut-up' ; ) (just poking fun at myself?) Dad's story is on I do like to share, so if you think it'll help...just message

Kelly - posted on 01/22/2010

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So apparently no one paid attention to the part of the bill that said we would be paying for it starting immediately, but most of the major reforms wouldn't take effect until 2013, 2014............. How in the world would that have helped you Mary Elizabeth in your current circumstances? Can your husband and son afford to wait 4 years? Because even if this crap passed that's what you are REALISTICALLY looking at, not full coverage starting tomorrow. And it wouldn't be free either. If you couldn't pay a $25 co-pay now, you wouldn't be able to pay the family deductible in the proposed plans. It astounds me that so many people (not necessarily you) thought that this bill would pass, and magically everyone would be immediately covered, with apparently no money out of pocket. I sincerely feel compassion to the situation you are facing. I faced a somewhat similar situation last year. I found out I was pregnant, and 2 days later my husband was laid off. We were in Wyoming, and I have to say, it was a simple visit to the unemployment office, and my 2 yr old daughter and I were covered under the state plan within 5 days. It sounds like the corrupt state government of Illinois does things slightly different, unfortunately for you. I wasn't happy to be on state assistance, but the whole experience was actually pretty good. I stayed with my same OB/GYN, delivered in the same hospital as originally planned, and our benefits counselor helped with everything. There is something to say for moving any type of reform to a more local level..... Being that my husband works in the oil and gas fields, he was out of work for a while, and had temporary jobs to fill in most of last year. We moved to TX for a contractor oil job 2 months ago, and now we are moving to PA so he can work in the natural gas fields there for his old company. After the 90 day wait (again) we will be back on insurance. Our life has certainly not been easy this last year, but we are making it work, and God willing, we will be able to continue to make it work.

There are many reasons I am glad healthcare is taking a back burner, the main one being that they (Pelosi, Reid and their ilk) were trying to shove it down our throats. Its not good enough to say pass the crappy bill now, we can always fix it later. That would solve absolutely nothing, and we would be additional trillions in debt. Obama and Congress need to focus on the most important issue right now, and that is the almost 11% unemployment rate. What happened to the empty promises in the speech Obama made to push that equally crappy stimulus? Remember, with the stimulus, unemployment wouldn't go above 8%........yeah right. It's about time those crack heads (Democrat and Republican alike) in Washington wake the hell up. First they need to take a little bit of ownership for the current situation, you can only blame Bush so much before you become part of the problem and not the solution. Once they realize that, they can focus on jump starting our economy and getting people back to work. THEN they can see about healthcare reform, and do it realistically. UHC is not the only answer, and in my opinion isn't the best answer. Found this website, interesting thought topics if anyone cares....

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/universa...

ME - posted on 01/22/2010

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I agree Theresa!!! I was all in favor of UHC or comprehensive reform before we lost our insurance. I knew tons of people who needed help before we did, and I wanted reform for their sakes and people like them all across the country. In addition to that, our private insurance, while pretty fantastic, was certainly not perfect. We paid over 200$ a month for it, 25$ copay, 15$ meds, and our coverage was only 90% at participating providers (This sounds great until you think about the 33,000$ hospital bill for our sons birth), plus, we had a 700$ per person deduct., and no eye or dental was included...we would have had to pay extra for that...and couldn't afford to when we signed up. We were planning on adding them this January (which was our first opportunity since we could afford it)...My son has never seen a dentist, and he will be two in a couple of weeks...This is ALL insane...this country can and should be doing better for and by all of us. There are plenty of people in worse shape than my family. For example, if I weren't pregnant, it would have taken my family 6+ months to get state aid...as it is, we got it approved on an emergency basis, and they will let us know in two months if they will continue it, or cancel it...It makes me terribly sad to think about people who blame folks who find themselves in "this" situation right now...it's NOT our fault, and we NEED help...we don't want to take state aid, we would prefer to have my husband back at work immediately...Unfortunately, we live in IL...one of three states in the country where unemployment is STILL going UP...

[deleted account]

It's not just people who don't have insurance that want this health-care bill to pass. My husband gets over $350 a month taken out of his check for health-care. We have to pay $20 co-pay just to walk in the Dr's office ($40 if it's a specialist). We can't afford to get sick on the weekend because it's $50 for urgent care & $75 for emergency room. We have to pay $30 for named brand drugs and $10 for generic (Dental coverage is separate but has co-payments as well and certain procedures are not covered).



Well my two sons and I have allergies. One of my sons & I have asthma the other one has eczema. My husband and I both work. Sometimes we don't pay the electric bill or the cable bill or the garbage bill, because we have to pay for medications (many times we paid the mortgage late or had to borrow money). Sometimes I have to "nurse" my kids all weekend and then call them in as an emergency to their pediatrician to avoid paying urgent care or emergency room fees. This month alone, I had to cancel my appointments with the ENT & allergist because I couldn't afford the $80 co-pay for me AND my son PLUS the medication.



My meds are almost gone and the Dr. won't renew the prescription until I see him, so I have to pray that my allergies and sinus don't bring on an attack (I might have to use my son's inhaler). I also have high blood pressure. Someone suggested that I try a homeopathic pill for that. It costs about the same, without the added cost of the copay.



My problems are NOTHING like Mary Elizabeth's or many other people like her that I know. But not EVERY person that HAS insurance is HAPPY with their insurance. We shopped around and they're all pretty much the SAME. They offer very little and charge you up the rear to have it. SOMETHING has to get done. I couldn't imagine being in Mary Elizabeth's shoes...I wouldn't know what to do!!! We can't continue to live like this!!!!

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