What do you think of Cheney's opinion about water-boarding?

Pamela - posted on 09/16/2011

Oh man Stephanie - I am really sorry to hear about this. Sending you good vibes too. Keep strong - I hope everything works out for you and that you get your kids back.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

will do, all I can do is hold them whenever I can and work hard.... thank you.

Karla - posted on 09/16/2011

Stephanie,
Sorry to hear you are going through so much grief right now. I know that would kill me.

I'm sending you good vibes and wishing you and your family the best possible outcome. Hang in there girl - and keep giving those boys big hugs every time you see them.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

thank you... tell that to cps... they don't like that I have a disability(main one is severe ptsd... go figure). I am fighting to get my kids back over a disability that isn't a danger to any of us... and the foster home, beat my son, and now they put him in a new one... and my yongets competes with 16 other kids for a foster moms attention... all because they swooped in and didn't even think about the stability of my kids life... nothing means more to me than my little boys... and over ptsd... at least thats what they SAID... ass holes... working on it... doing what they ask... trying to get this done quickly... all I need is that note..... damn slower than molasses people.... yeah... they don't seem to think disabled people should have kids... so, I have to fight and have been constantly doing so since the 9nth... the day it happened. Phone calls and what not.... e mails... posting updates(this is more so I don't go insane though)... I have been working on it all. I think I have re arranged my home.... three times? Yeah... trying to channel the feelings so I can keep working on it instead of curling in a ball.

No-one means a thing when compared to my children, seriously... I confess, if a bunch of you died.... I would feel a little sad.... but my kids... I would probably become what I fear most, a monster with no heart and all the anger and *snap*... yeah. they are not just my world, they are not just my heart, they are not just my life, they are truly everything to me.

Pamela - posted on 09/16/2011

While I've never had abuse to such an extreme, I understand fear and I understand the subsequent questioning of one's own sanity when the abuse is denied vehemently by the abuser. My step-mother was a bit on the side of loony tunes as well and she has never admitted to the abuse she incurred on my sister and I. In fact, she has always jeered at our abuse - as she was far more than we ever were. And that was true - her mother was even loonier. We were lucky in some ways; our abuse revolved around being beaten, slapped and hit with whatever was available. You're absolutely right when you state "I don't want that for my kids." I felt and feel exactly the same way. I decided to deal with all that junk to the fullest extent possible, all the anger and rage that bubbles inside before I had my kids (I was 35 when I had my first). I didn't want to pass on the behavior - didn't want to repeat the sin (or whatever anyone wants to call it) that had been committed against me. I'd like to think no one wants that kind of treatment for anyone - but as we see in the above video, some people don't care. But we do, don't we?

Stephanie - you sound like an awesome mom by the way:)

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

yes, my deepest wish for them is to eventually grow into good, well adjusted, men who are aware but selfishly I also wish to not have them go through it... though I know what lessons it taught me... but, in the end all we can do is love them and do our best.



my grandmother went beyond crazy... at one point she convinced me that I sliced up my OWN back... and I still remembered her doing it too. I don't want that for my kids... I want them to have honor and be loving men who treat others as they themselves would wish, and yes I agree... if mothers took over the white house especially.. hehehe.... imagine the changes....



Someday, my boys will have choices to make as to who they will ultimately become... all I can do for now is teach right from wrong... and hope they keep that in mind when the time comes.

Pamela - posted on 09/16/2011

Regarding the raising of our kids: we do our best, but ultimately they will make their own decisions - and chose their own course in life. My consistent prayer is that I've raised decent men who give a rip about others. That's probably every parent's prayer - except maybe crazy abusive parents.

Pamela - posted on 09/16/2011

Stephanie, I think again you nail it. They don't want women in the top ranks of government quite possibly for this reason - we might change the rules. I've thought about what you've mentioned too - what if my boys tortured others? God what an awful thought. I've raised them to stand up for the weak and the marginalized; to see both sides of a story. I've often wondered: what if we saw all children as our children? We might be less likely to invade their countries and kill them.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

I know it is hard to imagine the other persona as anything but the villain, especially with how horrible this is... however, that doesn't change that they too, were once someones child, just like we have children.... this is... not something I wish for my children on either side.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

the question is also asked in my heart... no matter how ugly it sounds... "what if it were my child doing such things to another?"

I have a hard time pictureing my sweet little boys hurting anyone, but I also have to remember that it could happen someday... the vaugest possibility exists... and I don't want it to but... I can't make this go away, however I bet if every mother stood up and said "no more" things would hapen and change... no wonder america doesn't want a woman as president... scary boys on the play ground scared of the smart and obviously more influential female in class... it's like kindergarten in the white house...

for the record... the gender thign bothers me, not just for the whole female issues, but the effect they will have on my sons. I don't want my boys to think they are above OR below women... but this world makes that a hard thing to do.

in war, some enjoy it, some don't, and some are killed or receive it unto themselves if they refuse to inflict it... like I said... ugly as a whole. it even hurts those inflicting it.

torchure is just all around bad... what if your kid was MADE to do this?

ugly question but something just as unpleasant in my mind as having it done to them.

Pamela - posted on 09/16/2011

Stephanie: I think you hit the nail on the head - we are all mothers first. Everyone is someone's child. I think about my two boys when I read about the torture our country has embraced due to Dick Cheney & Donald Rumsfeld and this question always crosses my mind: what if it were my boys being tortured? And I couldn't stop it? God, what an awful feeling! Maybe if we started seeing others as not "other" but rather saw them as family - because in a sense, we all are family - the way we do life, the way we approach our national interests, the way we thought about one another, would change...

Karla - posted on 09/16/2011

Stephanie,
I don’t know much about interrogation, but I have heard interviews with professional interrogators (not the ones using torture) and they explain their methods of befriending their prisoners. They have said that when they establish a rapport with a prisoner then the prisoner begins to share more and more information.

I keep wondering why some people understand the basic evil of using torture, and others do not. It’s a method that everyone admits yields false confessions, and that makes the method invalid. Your point about the immorality of treating another human being with torture just compounds the immorality of the whole event. I cannot understand how people don’t understand this.

Thanks for sharing your point of view.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

I think i edited that like five times... kept on adding stuff... it is a very close to my heart subject... and they do, in fact have something they can do to make you tell them the truth. I heard enough about it being from a family who has been military oriented since before this country officially began. their ARE other way... he is just using someones children for his own selfish, sadistic, evil wishes.



I have just fixed a typo I could not ignore... great GOOD not god.... oi... imagine the fanatics who would pick up on THAT.... oi vay...

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

I think that it should never be done. Their is no good from it and his opinion is biased thinking that narrows his own mind, and takes worth away from someones life... mainly those he thinks it is OK to do it to.



I see no good in such things... he wishes to hurt people for information I know their are other ways to get that are not necessarily as hurtful. I understand that our government needs to know if someone is about to torch us all... but we are talking about lesser things these people are being tormented so deeply for, not any sort of greater good, and his double standardizing of it is appalling. no person is above another, and if I do not want this done to my own children some day, I refuse to wish that worry on another... no-matter what our children do as adults.



If they knew the person knew something their are better ways that cause less harm... like truth serum. THIS is... nothing short of a horrible thing that should never be done... ever.



would you want that person he thinks it's OK to torchure to be YOUR child?



well, those men and women, he thinks it is OK to torchure are someones little ones, someone raised them and watched them grow like you do now. And I don't think it is much better that the ones he thinks it's OK, to do it, were also once like our children... they are also someones child. put the faces of your children in those circumstances and you will see what I mean.



think how perverse that is... if this is allowed then at one point our children may have to decide to either do this or not do this.. and I don't want this for them... and I don't thin any mother does really... except maybe my grandmother but I also think she was pure evil.



when you hurt one person, you hurt everyone who loves them too... I know I would be deeply hurt if it were my boys.



These people are someones children too.



As a wiccan I must always look to the lesser harm, and the great er good where it does not make clear lines, and as a mother I must think of the pain I feel when my children do.



those people, are to someone, like your own children are to you... knowing that, and knowing his standard that he would not allow it to his own children,,, I do not even think he believes they are people, let alone have families.



think of the ones who are hurt and the damage it does.



what if it was your child?



I don't think that crosses his mind... and if it does... I hardly think he cares.

Karla - posted on 09/16/2011

Thanks Stephanie,



Could you tell me what you think of the OP -- Cheney and waterboarding. You mentioned being wiccan, and based on that and other things you have shared I have a feeling I will appreciate your opinion on this topic. Thanks!

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2011

*sniggers* I don't think the social structure ever really changes... but some people come to a... fork int he road I guess, where they unite over something... like our kids, even though we may not agree with everything each-other says.



for instance... something I know I have said a lot lately.... this is something I can honestly tell you.



Before I am a member of my country, before I am a female, before I am a friend, before I am a daughter, before I am a wiccan... before all of that, I am a mother.



when someone creates their own rift on purpose and complains... I have issues with it, because your part of the problem.



see? I bet at least one person will be offended... but also see... I don't care. why? because it is the truth and unless your reaction is going to be a danger, I don't care. its your own personal problem until you make it mine.

Karla - posted on 09/16/2011

It's not like high school at all, it's like 3rd grade. ;-)
joking again.

Pamela - posted on 09/15/2011

Nice.

America3437 - posted on 09/15/2011

You right I didn't ask! For the most part I respect these ladies and really don't give a shit what you think! I am so sick of everyone tryin to "HELP"! I am a big girl and haven't had to hold my mommies hand for a long time, but thanks anyway:)it is not my fault if they don't agree with what I say. We are all different and that is perfectly fine! That is how it supposed to be.

Pamela - posted on 09/15/2011

@ America3437: My best advice (even though you didn't ask for it but oh well, that's never stopped me) is, if your going to stir the pot, don't be surprised when you get reactions. If you're going to post things that are extreme (or don't make sense), you will get reactions and they won't always be positive. Don't be offended when someone disagrees with you. That's not "hating" nor is it "judging"; that's disagreement. Don't take things personally - none of us really "know" one another except from our posts. If you want people to be respectful to you on this site, be respectful yourself to the other members here. If you're going to play on this site, you gotta roll this stuff off your back like a duck rolls water off its back. I have been on this site since '09 and have had many conversations with these ladies - we frequently don't agree with one another (and sometimes those disagreements are quite passionate). But!! We learn from one another. So this is a place where you can learn some things (all of us can). Be polite, be respectful, and you'll do well.

Jen - posted on 09/15/2011

" doesn't every abused child have to learn that? "

do you disagree that all victims of abuse need to learn ways to cope with it?

By agreeing with that you are not agreeing that therapy is the only method, only that the need is there. I too am the victim of childhood sexual molestation. I have never been to counseling on a serious level because I am not a person who trusts anyone like that. Like you, I learned on my own how to copy. Not everyone can.

Jen - posted on 09/15/2011

"Ihave sent friend requests to a few of you in an attempt to start fresh, and become a member of this site insted of being rejected no matter what i say."

You never sent one to me. I would have accepted it and will even now. I don't have to agree with you to be friendly. However even my closest friends know that if a topic gets my dander up **and/or** if an argument is presented that I know to be a lie, I will argue that point. that's why I hang out in debate forums. It exercises my brain.

America3437 - posted on 09/15/2011

wow!

Jessica - posted on 09/14/2011

And I was abused, and I sometimes I can cope and when I can't so well, I have what I call "friend" therapy... after years of actual therapy, having a friend to talk to is my best bet... and by those standards I consider it therapy. It took a lot of self awareness and a lot of work to get to this point and for my own future(my kids) I have close friends I can call when I need to talk, and most times I don't wait that long, because I don't want to wait till the last minute and find I can't talk to them because they are busy. Please refrain from presuming about what is therapy and what is not.



Therapy is a way to help you live and cope with it, so... doesn't every abused child have to learn that?

Jessica - posted on 09/14/2011

America3437 - posted 21 minutes ago

I HAVE been attacked a few times, though through suggestion(not a blatant "your wrong, your a bad mom because you don't agree" but the meaning is their), and I CAN tell you, I have been honest even though I myself, have had issues.

I have several areas I do know about, but am open and honest about the fact that I lack paper, and this riles some, you know what though? I am sure they appreciate the honestly and consistency... because even though my views are strong, and I am not always so great at holding my temper on here(usually due to life off here), however I am admitting it.

I too find it concerning you change you "facts" like that. I am very religious and to claim SO many opposing things... is deeply concerning.

Please avoid stiring the pot on purpose... enough of us do it without meaning to, so trust me, it WILL get stired.

Karla - posted on 09/14/2011

@A3734 “Why do people assume that every abused child needs theorpy? It is very judgemental of you to say that.”
I respectfully disagree.

“The thing is here in America we have freedom of spech and there is nothing you can do about it! I don't need your approval on anything!”
Okay, I never said anything about your rights to free speech.

“Who knows maybe you would benefit a bit from theopary”.
No doubt.

“No matter what i say you will turn it into whatever suits your fancy. I hope you fully understand that you are in no way better then me or perfect.”

OMG, Yes, I know I’m not perfect, and I don’t usually think of people in terms of who is better or worse. I have no idea where you got the idea I was turning your words into anything other than what they are – a representative of you.

Good luck.

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

@Karla.... Why do people assume that every abused child needs theorpy? It is very judgemental of you to say that. The thing is here in America we have freedom of spech and there is nothing you can do about it! I don't need your approval on anything! Who knows maybe you would benefit a bit from theopary.No matter what i say you will turn it into whatever suits your fancy. I hope you fully understand that you are in no way better then me or perfect.

Karla - posted on 09/14/2011

@A3437, here’s how I roll…



First you say: ”I am more real then you know! I started out very serious and no matter what i say certin girls here just turn my words around.”

So you are “for real”

Then you say: “so I got fed up and decided to get a rise out of ya”

Nope, you are here for “shits and giggles.”



If you want to be taken seriously than don’t mess with people. Damn.



“If i spell something wrong it seems to be pointed out…”

One time – I only saw one word that you misspelled being pointed out and that was after several posts of you misspelling Muslim - Musslium. People here are generally forgiving of spelling a grammar errors… so don’t turn that into people judging and hating you, it just is not the case.



You have made many comments on the Debating Mums! Community in which you are trying to stir up controversy; I’m not saying any one of your claims is not true, but they are very extreme and you seem to know it.



No one here has unjustly attacked you or sent you hate messages, but they do not understand you. Since you admittedly went from “being serious” to “decided to get a rise out of ya,” I don’t know why you would think that would instill any amount of friendship or closeness. Therein lies the contradiction.



You went from questioning the Muslim religion to saying you were Muslim, and now saying you are Christian. I only know you through this web site; therefore I don’t know you at all because you are all over the spectrum of personality, religion, and mood



I truly am sorry you feel judged or hated. I doubt anyone here intended to display such things, but there is a reason you feel them. I don’t think the “Debating Mums!” community is the place to look for support; we are all here because we like to discuss and debate things and many do it with a vengeance. Expect to be called-out if you make a claim; expect to be questioned on your beliefs and your viewpoint; know that it is your ideas that are being questioned, and know that disagreements are the norm in this community. People here ARE going to judge your comments, but that DOES NOT mean they are judging you.



I have a friend who was abused as a child… she needs to go back to therapy every 2 or 3 years to regroup and refigure her emotions and mental state. It’s better for her and her family and her friends that she does this; it’s difficult but helpful.



Know that when someone suggests you might benefit from therapy, they mean it in the most helpful and caring way.

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

@ Karla I am more real then you know! I started out very serious and no matter what i say certin girls here just turn my words around. you want to know here it is..... I am a 37 year old mom of three teenagers and have lost 5 children! I believe in God and have witnessed a few of his miracles. I am not perfect as it seems so many of you think i should be and just got tired of being attacked everytime I said something not agreed with so i just had a bit of fun with it! I have no intention of going anywhere so get used to it! If i spell something wrong it seems to be pointed out but half of the post here contain misspelled words! I came here in the beginning for a support group of other mums but have yet to get any support! You are quick to judge me but I think if I was ever given a chance it would have been much different. Ihave sent friend requests to a few of you in an attempt to start fresh, and become a member of this site insted of being rejected no matter what i say. You women stick togeather so tight it hard for an outsider to get in(highschool all over again) so I got fed up and decided to get a rise out of ya and it worked now maybe you all will think about how your words show as much hate as if you were to hit me!

Karla - posted on 09/14/2011

@America3437 - I've seen your posts on several threads. your comments about "Who is teaching our children?" in particular cause me concern about who the hell you are; and what the freak is your agenda! Here you spend all this time declaring a parody was factual, or could be? Why?
Are you on here for "shits and giggles" or are you for real?

I might get called out for this post, but I think it's time you were confronted. So what is it?

Pamela - posted on 09/14/2011

I think we have a running thread in regards to conspiracy theories...:)

Johnny - posted on 09/14/2011

Huh? Why would you "have to believe that this could take place"? It is clearly stated as a satirical piece of fiction. I am confused by this. Befuddled

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

I have to believe that this could take place! Hope it didn't but could!

ME - posted on 09/14/2011

It's a Satirical article...entitle "The interview we wish he'd given" or something like that....none of it is true.

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

Thanks for putting the link up I not really a computer person. Didn't this shock you? I wonder how much is true.

ME - posted on 09/14/2011

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/new...

smh...really...I mean, REALLY???

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

Article from Rolling Stones magazine Jan 22,2009....Question....Colin Powell says you guys had a little issue why you were working out the whole waterboarding protocol. (I won't rewrite the whole article here but this was Bushs response)....(manny ,houseboy that was taken in by some guys at state' when oxen stepped on land mine and killed his family)..Rumsfeld askes... "hey, Manny, can u lie on this table? manny says yes"so, we put him on the table and Dick holds a napkin over his eyes and then start's pouring big gulps of ice water out of a picture into his nose and mouth.Can't breath manny gasps and Dick is like,"We know Manny that's why were doing this. Just relax." Next don starts pouring hot coffee in his ears and eyes, and Manny screams at this point. Dick says " no,Don, it's not about tempture or burning, it's all about drowning." Rummey nods and we go back to pouring the water up his nose, Manny is kicking and screaming and Dick finally starts getting mad."You'r makeing alot of noise Manny, your going to have to calm down." But Manny is still screaming and Rummey is shakeing his head, like he's not sure it's really working"I still say it would work better if we could apply some heat."So he takes out his lighter and uses it to set Manny's ears on fire."There look at that" he says.Manny is really flailing around nowand Don looks totally engaged in the process."Mmm". Dick says,"I just don't think the law wiiis going to let us do that."So they launch into an argument about it and after a while we relize that Manny isn't moving anymore. There's a little streak of vomit comming out of his mouthand his little eyes have stopped blinking. Basically he died. We had to get a new houseboy.One good thing about it.. We learned not to set people's ears on fire. ........There is more to this article but that is how Dick Cheny, Bush and Rumsfeld tried out waterboarding! How does that sit with you all?

Pamela - posted on 09/10/2011

Along with Rumsfeld...maybe they could share a room. That'd be cozy.

Pamela - posted on 09/10/2011

I usually dislike Jesse Ventura - I think he's an arrogant individual who thinks highly of himself - but I sure agree with him in regards to torture. And no, I will not read Cheney's book. He won't get one solitary dime of my money. He should be sitting in a prison.

Pamela - posted on 09/10/2011

Here's the thing: that which we do to our enemies, will be done to us. Here's an example: one of the avenues Hitler used to gain power was to woo the German churches and overall, with the exception of the few, he succeeded (the "Confessing Churches" resisted Hitler - Bonhoeffer was a part of that along with Barth, Niebuhr and others). What the churches failed to understand - in fact, what the German people failed to get - was after the Nazi's had eradicated all the "undesirables", his intent (and there is historical record of this) was to turn his machine on his own people. He planned to start first with the churches (because while he wooed the churches by talking about morality, etc, he was by no means a follower of Jesus). He planned to purify his own folks. So what we do to our enemies will be done to us. Just something to think about.

Jessica - posted on 09/08/2011

I can honestly tell you water-boarding IS torchure... of the mind more than the body. I went through it. I thought it was "normal" for a 9 year old to not remember her own name and go home... only to be tortured when she did something the grandmother didn't like.



I have since met others who have been through similar instances. I gotta say, I wouldn't wish it on foreigners OR people from America.



He needs to get out of hypocrisy isle. If you don't want it done to YOU, then you should NEVER do it to anyone, adult OR child. Someone from your own country, or someone from another country. Doesn't matter.



People who torchure others like that.... what a horrible person he is. Physiologically I believe it is called "dehumanizing"... not sure if I remember that right. The concept is when you take a difference such as religion or nationality or something else, anything, and make a distinction as he just did. I don't believe I have to point out which one. heres an example. "I can kill this person because they are _______ and therefore not a person in my eyes." .... well this is "I can weatherboard this person because they are __________ and I am __________ which means they are not human in my eyes"



It gets a bit more in depth and complicated... but it's a horrible way of thinking.



edited: sorry. hard to keep something so personal impersonal. This issue IS personal to me...

Rosie - posted on 09/06/2011

no i won't spend a dime to fund that troll, and his arrogance is absolutely astounding. i sat there with my mouth open shaking my head in disbelief watching this video. and i wonder why the world hates us...ffs..

Dana - posted on 09/05/2011

Great clip, Karla. And Jesse Ventura can get on my nerves usually but, with this one, he's spot on.
Love how he shot down the use of "advanced interrogation"...

Karla - posted on 09/03/2011

Iris, that’s an excellent point.



It took me some time and maturity to understand the Geneva Convention. I remember reading about it, talking to my mom, and listening to my teachers about why it came to be, why it is important, and why we must follow it.



Until the GW Bush presidency, the paradigm was to follow the Geneva Convention not only for prisoners of war, but also for “enemy combatants,” and basically all prisoners. When President Bush decided that “enhanced interrogation” (water-boarding, torture) was acceptable in US prisons, I was appalled and embarrassed. This was a huge step back in US foreign relations and in military conduct. Suddenly, there was no longer much to be proud of in being American.



I know Bush’s policies hurt foreign relationships, but they also hurt the progress that had been made toward a more civil world. There are some people who debate my view on this, and to them I use Jesse Ventura as fellow supporter. I believe that the understanding and maturity and knowledge that I needed to appreciate the greatness and importance of the Geneva Convention are somehow not present in Cheney or Bush, and I don’t know why and I’m sorry for it.

Iris - posted on 09/03/2011

These answers from Cheney are exactly the reason so many people dislike Americans.

How can people outside USA not feel stepped on when a USA person in power tells the rest of the world that it is ok for them to do it to others, but if anyone did it to our people the whole hell would brake lose?



My personal point of view is this: My husband is in the American military. If he goes down to Afghanistan, gets captured and water-boarded. USA can't go yelling "Torture!", because they already did it. If they did try to raise a stink, the rest of the world would probably think "right back at you or you came up with the idea..".



As a European, I can see why people get angry and don't like Americans by these answers and injustice. As a military wife, it scares me because I know that because the Americans looked the other way, the other countries would do the same now.

Karla - posted on 09/02/2011

*

I know my link will come up on top, but I refer to Ventura below...

Jen, Yes I agree that John McCain has been great about this issue. Another man I don't generally agree with on politics is Jesse Ventura, but I do agree with his views on water-boarding.

Jen - posted on 09/02/2011

I won't read his book. He made a lot of money off the deaths of thousands. I find him utterly without moral value. Of course he supports torture, it likely won't ever happen to him. If it did, he would change his tune as have other people who have experienced it.

John McCain anyone? While he's flipflopped on a few issues, I strongly respect his continued stance against torture.