WTF?

Gianina - posted on 06/17/2010

Kati Brown said "i have to have car insurance, everybody has to have car insurance, at least in iowa. if we don't we get fined. sound similar?"

If you're talking about the Health Care, I must disagree with your choice of sample. NOT everybody has a car and they aren't forced to get a car insurances. The Health Care does.
Obama said that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Guess what, that's not the case anymore.

Brooke - posted on 06/16/2010

The news is RIDICULOUS! Ahhh! I can't even watch it without getting irritated! They create mountains out of molehills for everything these days. Every time I turn on the news there's something about the color of someone's skin, their religion, if they're Liberal or Conservative, are they racist, etc. It's plain ridiculous! I can't stand it! Everyone says this country is divided and that's why!!!! All these ideas get put into people's head that everyone else is out to get them because of their skin color, religion, etc. In my opinion, they have treated Obama like a celebrity rather than a president. Rather than questioning real topics we face today they focus on where he's vacationing and what kind of food he's eating! So dumb. Do your job journalists!

Krista - posted on 06/16/2010

I think you make some great points, Brooke. No president is perfect. They're POLITICIANS, for pete's sake.

Speaking personally, it doesn't bother me in the least if someone criticizes Obama's policies or viewpoints. I think that it is our patriotic duty to criticize our political leaders and to hold them to a high standard. I guess it is just tiresome when so many mountains are made out of molehills. Like that ridiculous kerfuffle when he was out at a diner and asked for Dijon mustard, and a bunch of right-wing blogs and pundits were criticizing him for being "elitist"...because of what mustard he likes! It's stuff like that that makes people think that no matter what Obama does, there are many people on the right who will find fault.

But yeah, the media definitely doesn't help. I don't think the media is particularly liberal OR conservative. I think they are just desperate for stories, particularly now that we have 24-hour news channels, and so they fill the time with 1 hour of solid news, and 23 hours of speculation, innuendo, and punditry. I am really of the firm opinion that 24-hour news channels have only served to completely dumb-down and destroy the integrity of journalism.

Brooke - posted on 06/15/2010

Every president has faults and issues. The president of this country is under a microscope and that's a normal thing. I don't understand why people are so surprised by this now that Obama is in office!?!?!?! People get so defensive when someone has something to say about him that's not positive. This country is just simply aghast at the fact that we would dare disrespect the president of this great nation. Haha! So funny considering that Bush, along with many other past presidents, were ripped to shreds and horrid things were said about them as well (not that I'm saying Bush was perfect or great or any of that and I will not discuss Bush bc he is NOT our current president and I'm over it! It's merely a comparison). I think in all honestly, people need to grow some thicker skin and not be so defensive. Also, the Liberal media is just as much a joke as the Conservative media. Hate to break it to you but have you ever fact checked MSNBC or CNN?! Haha...what a joke. You really have to take it all with a grain of salt. Also, in defense of Obama (even though I can't stand him), he handles the negative media usually quite well in my opinion. We only have to listen to it for another year and a half anyway, then it will be someone else's turn for the microscope (he won't be reelected).

Diane - posted on 05/06/2010

Wow things got quiet in here. Just wondering what carol thought here. :)

Theresa - posted on 04/25/2010

Wow! I have been off the Internet for a few days and this thread has sure taken on a life of it's own!



Mary, I think you hit the nail on the head! This thread was started to show how the right-wing media and Republicans criticize Obama's policies (even if they were once polices they embraced). In addition, it was to show how what Obama says is misrepresented. How the "law or bill" can say one thing, but what is reported, is something totally different and false.



I think people already had their minds made up about Obama and no matter what he does. They refuse to admit they were wrong or even give him a fair shot. They have to hold onto their convictions no matter what (even in the face of direct evidence to the contrary). They refuse to consider that maybe they were wrong or maybe the information that they once based their opinion on was incorrect or misguided.



I may not agree with some of Obama's policies, but I DO believe he is an American citizen. I do not think he is Muslim. I don't believe he is evil. I don't believe he is trying to destroy this country.



I plead with everyone who "wants their country back" to ask themselves. Do you like working at a company where health & safety regulations are adhered? Do you like getting paid for your vacation time & sick time? Do you like your lunch hour? What about your maternity leave? How about your social security and medicare? What about all those NRA supporters who carried their firearms to the government funded park to protest? If it wasn't for government, all these things wouldn't exist. All government is not bad, and government trying to protect all it's citizens is not evil.



Someone else having access to education, medical care or employment opportunities shouldn't scare or threaten anyone.

ME - posted on 04/25/2010

It's amazing how this thread went from a question about poor reporting and poor political strategies, to one of what christianity demands of the US government...But, I spent three hours reading it yesterday, so, I saw it happen! I think the other ladies have the religious questions covered; so, I will just repeat: Church and State folks, Church and State...



Now...onto the OP...Some of my fb friends are joining a group praying for the presidents death (most of them claim to be conservative christians), most of these people also get their opinions from fox, and they subscribe to radical conspiracies like the birthers movement...these three examples of conservative behavior got me thinking about an overall lack of critical thinking skills in this country. This fact frightens and concerns me! We are failing somehow...perhaps education; this is what "teaching to the test" has gotten us....I don't know...



I think 24 hour news is also a factor here...we have to have something going on all the time, so people aren't concerned about fact checking (at least not sufficiently). If they are right, they get to break a big story, if they are wrong, something will come along really soon to replace the old story, and Americans will forget all about your mistake (or lie). JS is relevent and funny because he consistently points out the failings of our media and of our political system at the same time...He also uses his own critical thinking skills, which means, he makes sense most of the time, AND reminds all of us that we are also capable of working these things out on our own...

Diane - posted on 04/24/2010

KATI you said, “nobody is going to give you a verse from the bible that condones gay marriage or abortion, you know as well as everyone else here that there are none. that's not the point. the point is you are up on your high horse, looking down on all the infidels acting like your position on christianity is the only ACCEPTABLE one.”

I am sorry I come across that way I do not mean to do that. I am a sinner and I have never pretended to be perfect. I have talked about the abortion I had in many conversations/discussions on here. I never told anyone that they were going to hell either. But I have based on scripture entered into a discussion about sin and what God says about it. I have not called anyone a name and I certainly have NOT told anyone they were going to hell. I have however quoted what Christ said about many things. It is not my position……….it’s Gods. I have quoted scripture, especially what Christ said. It is clear how Christ feels about sin.

The fact that God talks negatively about sex outside marriage should tell us something. Creation should tell us something.
“that's part of the reason why i'm not a christian anymore. people who act as if their way of thinking is the only way. there are many different types of religions out there, and each religion has many people who interpret their religion differently.”


Will God accept excuses? Will he buy into your blaming others for your lack of faith? If you have a problem with what we are talking about here you need to take it up with God not me. And if you do not believe in God then…..so be it. I did not write the Bible, but I believe it and I quote from it. I take what Christ commanded me to do seriously. He commands that believers spread the Gospel. Jesus said He was the ONLY way. I did not make it up…..Christ stated this fact. Why are you blaming me? I know there are many different religions out there and none are alike. But I have weighed the evidence and studied the Word and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

“there are some people out there who don't even believe in any "god". many in my family are mennonite or amish so i have a close up personal look at what an evangelical christian is like, and i can honestly say that even they do not seem to have the same views as you.”


How are my views ungodly? I have asked and asked and asked you guys to give me an example and no one has come up with even one. Show me scripturally where I am wrong. I would bet our family home that the Amish and Mennonites are pro-life and anti-abortion. I know they are wonderful god fearing people.

About abortion rhetoric……..If you believe like I do that that which is in the womb is a living human being then you give it personhood. If you take that life away by intentionally killing it without consent, then that act is murder whether in the womb or out. I have never called someone a baby killer…….but does it really change what they do or did? Do we want to use friendly feel good terms to describe what really happens just to make that person feel good? Like using the term “medically terminated”……isn’t that the same as killing? And if it is killing without consent isn’t that murder?

I disagree with that separation issue….that is a whole other topic. We can’t separate some things and we have to discriminate to maintain order for the good of society. You talk about allowing people to worship as they so choose. Not all religions and cultures can coexist without problems. Look at the problems in the Middle East. Why do you think they do not want Western influence? Because they think our culture has gotten sick and perverted. And on this I agree with them 100%.

There is no separation of church and state in the ME. The church is the state. Can we honor Sharia in America? No. It goes against the principles of America because we do not stone, decapitate and amputate body parts of people who break the law. We do not allow families to carry this out on members they feel are going against Islam. It is one of the only remaining systems of religious law to still be executed by force.

So what happens if the population in the states changes and the majority becomes Islamic? Should our laws then reflect their culture? Should we allow same sex marriages………..group marriages (you can’t exclude them right?) to change society. What in the long run will this do to America? Even beyond the Bible, same sex arrangements strike me as violating something deeply rooted in our very biology.
If you survey the world and all the cultures in it, the concept of family is found in ALL OF THEM. Certain tribes practice bigamy and even polygamy, but they all have the sense that children belong to the parents who GAVE THEM BIRTH. There is something connected between men and woman and the result is obvious….the result is the offspring they produce. In most cultures there are radical differences but all have moral consciences and commitments to their families. I believe the majority who are born and live on earth…humankind knows that a superior moral law exists. I believe for the most part that moral consciousness connects marriage and family.
Gay marriage and unions might well change society’s concept of parenthood…because they obviously can’t produce children on their own. Would we one day see companies where you can rent a womb? Will it become possible to produce, buy and sell children? Would we then deny them the knowledge of who their parents really are? Because this is the only way two homosexuals and two lesbians can have children. Thus………..you deny a child either a mother or a father. We can bring up genetics and born predispositions, but we still have human responsibilities for our lifestyles and actions. And in my opinion we have got to do what is best for society and especially for children. What happened with abortion is now happening with homosexuality. Legalization implies morality. People will more easily engage in legal activity than illegal ones.

You make pedophilia legal……..it becomes acceptable….make polygamy legal, make child pornography legal, prostitution, drugs…. they become acceptable. Abortion was taboo, it was always regarded as murder that is why it was illegal before 1973. So all of a sudden murder becomes ok and laws are passed to reflect that….and now people think it is a moral choice.

We better be very careful about what we legalize…everything has consequences but not are positive.

No society will survive without active enforcement of moral standards. Another topic…..I get going and can’t stop, sorry.

You said,” you're right you never outright said it, but you implied it by saying that those who have had abortions, abortionists, gays and people who have sex before marriage, and those who support abortions, aren't christian in their values. i interpret that as you think they aren't christians, therefore aren't worthy of heaven.”

No I never implied it because that would be a lie. Denial of Christ keeps you from eternal salvation with God. I did not say this…………Christ did in the scriptures. I just believe on the scriptures that they are true. So can a sin keep you from heaven….no. If that were so…….nobody could make it. I said those in the list you just gave were sinning. God did not say that I can’t questions someones faith. I cant judge their hearts because only God can do that….but in order to protect ourselves from evil, we have to judge. There are people here who are judging me by my words and actions. And they have every right to do that. I said based on Obama’s actions and words, I question his faith.

Diane - posted on 04/24/2010

Carol you said this, “It is and will always be the choice of the mother as to whether or not she wishes to carry her baby to term. Until the birth, the child is a parasite living off her body.”
A baby is not an organ of a woman’s body, it is not a parasite. That is fact. The fetus is NOT A PART OF THE PREGNANT WOMANS BODY, LIKE TONSILS, and OR APPENDIX OR LIVER OR HEART. The unborn child also has a genetic code, DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT FROM HIS MOTHERS. Every cell of his body is uniquely his, each different than every other cell of his mothers body. Blood type might be different as could be the sex of the child. The child has a different set of fingerprints that that of his mothers.
“It is a well-established fact that a genetically distinct human being is brought into existence at conception. Once fertilization takes place, the zygote is its OWN entity, genetically distinct from both the mother and the father. The newly conceived individual possesses all the necessary information for a self-directed development and will proceed to grow in the usual human fashion, given time and nourishment. It is simply untrue that the unborn child is merely a “part of the womans body.” In addition to being genetically distinct from the time of conception, the unborn possesses separate circulatory, nervous and endocrine systems.”
(Landrum Shettles and David Rorvik, Rites of Life:The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth (Grand Rapids, Mich 1983)
It is a clear scientific fact Carol that the mother is one distinctive and self-contained person and the child is another. Being inside something is NOT the same as being part of something. Ones body does not belong to another’s body merely because of proximity. Louise Brown the first test tube baby was conceived when sperm and egg joined in a Petri dish. She was no more part of her mother’s body when placed there than she had been part of the Petri dish where her life began. A child is not part of the body in which he/she is carried.
This truth was affirmed in July 2000 by the U.S. House of Representatives when they unanimously passed a bill making it illegal to execute a pregnant woman. The logical reason for this decision is that a preborn child is an individual person, distinct from his mother and with his own separate right to life.
I believe human beings should not be discriminated against because of their place of residence.






You said,” I am firmly against abortion for myself, but I have no doubt that if I attempt to enforce that choice on anyone else, no good will come of it. I do not believe that every life is precious or a gift from god.”
Curious that while you were pregnant you did not think the life inside you was special? The miracle of seeing your child born…how was that? You mean to tell me that you do not think all children are precious? Wow.
As far as Hitler…….I compare thinking and worldviews. And if you knew history especially about PP and Margaret Sanger you would see that the pro-choice mentality often times mirrors his worldview. It is not absurd at all

“I feel that I have great compassion for living creatures, and sometimes compassion includes allowing those who will not have a satisfactory existence to cease to be. It is for the same reasons that I support the right to be euthanasized and a person's right to suicide. “
How could you? You do not have compassion for all living creatures because aren’t you pro-choice? That which is in the womb is a living human being however small and defenseless that it is. What do you not get about what medical science has to say. This would not be an issue for anyone if it was not human, was not living. A fetus, child is not an inanimate object. You need to study fetal development.
What makes you think that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to decide life or death for another human being just because it can’t stand up for itself. Who do you think you are? To ASSUME that a child in the womb MIGHT have a terrible life is absurd.
That is exactly what Sanger founder of PP thought. She wanted the black race controlled because it was inferior as she thought about Jews too. Abortion was one way to do it. She hated minorities…and if you look at who PP targets…….its minorities. Take a look at where most their clinics are. Stand and watch minority women pour in. If you do not believe me then look up stats on it. Go to Guttmaucher site.

"I accepted an invitation to talk to the women's branch of the Ku Klux Klan...I saw through the door dim figures parading with banners and illuminated crosses...I was escorted to the platform, was introduced, and began to speak...In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered." (Margaret Sanger: An Autobiography, P.366)
http://www.margaretsanger.blogspot.com/


“You may be right that most illegal abortions were performed by doctors, I am not that educated on US abortion history, not being an American and all.”
Then I would suggest looking up Margaret Sanger……..and read for yourself. She hated blacks and Jews, she loved and admired Hitler. Then look at American and world statistics at the Guttmaucher Institute. Then read Mark Crutchers book called LIME 5, it documents cases of maternal deaths and abortion clinic safety information, particularly about how substandard they are. Many deaths are from anesthetic because the doctors are not certified in this area and give women accidental overdoses. There are horror stories in this book. He gives court document case numbers as well.
“Can you imagine how many Americans would die every year if surgeries in general were not legal? There may be doctors who would continue to perform them, but there are complications for all surgeries that require medical follow up. Thousands would die if they could not receive that follow up care.”
Can you just imagine how many children would be alive if they had not been dismembered alive?

“And since women are able to access abortions anyway, and do so, what is the purpose of making it illegal? To punish them for thwarting "god" I suppose.”
And since kids are able to obtain drugs easily we might as well make them legal too.
If you have to ask what the purpose of making abortion illegal would be…….then I really don’t know what to say but that you simply do not get it. The purpose has nothing to do with women and everything to do with lives saved. Try to think about that.

Rosie - posted on 04/23/2010

nobody is going to give you a verse from the bible that condones gay marriage or abortion, you know as well as everyone else here that there are none. that's not the point. the point is you are up on your high horse, looking down on all the infidels acting like your position on christianity is the only ACCEPTABLE one. that's part of the reason why i'm not a christian anymore. people who act as if their way of thinking is the only way. there are many different types of religions out there, and each religion has many people who interpret their religion differently. there are some people out there who don't even believe in any "god". many in my family are mennonite or amish so i have a close up personal look at what an evangelical christian is like, and i can honestly say that even they do not seem to have the same views as you. sure they don't like abortion, and want it to end, but to call anyone who doesn't agree with them a baby killer, or to think the unrational thought that they are pro-abortion, doesn't come up in the conversation. heck, i even know christians who don't agree with homosexuals, but you know what? they realize there is such a thing as seperation of church and state in this country. they realize that they can't expect others to live by their faith, as i don't expect others to live by my lack of faith.
i didn't make the point about lying to say that you were lying. if you misunderstood that part i'm sorry. what i was trying to say was that, why aren't you (not specifically you, christians in general) as passionate when someone commits a sin by lying? people sin on a daily basis, and i'm pretty sure lying has got to be at the top of the list in frequency. since all sins are equal in god eyes, why is it that homosexuality is condemened so much more than lying in the christian faith? i don't see rallys against lying like i do against gays. why is that? it absolutely baffles me. christians simply accept that lying is human nature, why can't they accept that homosexuality is as well, and not make a big deal out (cause they don't about lying) of it since it's supposed to be considered the same in gods eyes.


And where did I say that sinners…homosexuals, women who have had abortions, abortionists, don’t ever have the chance to go to heaven? I never said that. And if you say I did, then it is you who are lying.-diane.

you're right you never outright said it, but you implied it by saying that those who have had abortions, abortionists, gays and people who have sex before marriage, and those who support abortions, aren't christian in their values. i interpret that as you think they aren't christians, therefore aren't worthy of heaven.

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

CAROL I am answering questions to multiple people here and if I got you confused with another, I apologize. I will try to be more careful.
I will address your post later tonight…….have a play to do to. I am going as fast as I can.

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

KATIE……….you said, “how are you doing at obeying gods word? i mean i seriously don't think that you think you should be killed for eating shellfish, and i'm not positive but i can almost guarantee that your ears are pierced-another no no from god. are your sons circumcised? do you wear 2 different types of fabric at the same time-uh oh YOU'RE AN INFIDEL!!!!!”
Katie…….you bring up OT LAW and I see what you are trying to say.. I will try to keep it short for me sometimes that is impossible.
The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. How did, does, and shall Jesus Christ fulfill the promises of the Old Covenant? Christians are commanded to read the Old Testament and are allowed to benefit from it, but they do not take everything in it as final. Christians honor the Old Testament as the Word of God, just as Jesus did. But they read it, ultimately, through the vision of Jesus and the Spirit-inspired authors of the New Testament books and epistles.
Jesus was a Jew and He honored the law. But His mission was to change from Old Covenant to New Covenant from the laws of Moses to the law of Christ. Christ said I HAVE COME. He is the one who fulfilled the Old Testament by his sinless life. He is the one who fulfilled its prophecies about his first coming. He fulfilled it by his death and resurrection. He fulfilled it by the establishment of his worldwide church. And he will fulfill it at his Second Coming.
In the Torah there are three divisions of law: moral, judicial and ceremonial law. Christ fulfilled them all, no one else came close. The moral law stated that the people keep perfectly Gods commands. In Romans 13:8-10 Paul repeats some of the Ten Commandments ( do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet), but he concludes that "love is the fulfillment of the law" (v. 10). Christ fulfills them all.
Jesus boils down all the commandments in the Old Testament to two (love only God and love your neighbor). They are the best way to obey all of them. Jesus’ followers should live a life of divine love through the power of the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name. I honor and respect the Old Testament, but I interpret it through Jesus Christ and the new era of salvation and fulfillment that he ushered in on the day he was born. Paul clearly argues in his letter to the Ephesians, that the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” was “abolished” by the death of Jesus upon the cross (2:14-15).
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." {Galatians 3:24,25}
"Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." {Colossians 2:14}

You ask me why I am not as adamant about other issues. I never brought gay marriage up you guys did. We never got into Obama and homosexuality and sex outside marriage. Start a conversation on it and I will discuss that as well. If Obama says sex outside marriage is ok, then he once again is wrong scripturally. No case can be made for sex outside marriage and that goes for heterosexuals as well.
What have I lied about? Please post a lie that I said, I will address it. You are talking in generalities.
You said, ““funny how jesus never ONCE mentions it the whole time he was here. don't you think if it was so important jesus would've probably brought that up once or twice? but the one thing that jesus brings up over and over again is the only way to get to heaven is by believing in god. he doesn't say, well, if you're straight and you believe in god, then you'll get into heaven. straight people aren't the only ones that get into heaven diane, so why treat them any different while they're on earth? it's beyond all comprehension to me.”
Jesus never mentioned abortion, never mentioned child abuse either….but does that mean He likes them? If you read the entire bible and you do a deductive Bible study on this issue and you weigh ALL VERSES there is no case for sex outside marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman period. I have asked you to give one example and you can’t. In fact none of you have even cited ONE scripture to back up your beliefs.
And where did I say that sinners…homosexuals, women who have had abortions, abortionists, don’t ever have the chance to go to heaven? I never said that. And if you say I did, then it is you who are lying.
There is only ONE SIN THAT KEEPS ONE FROM HEAVEN AND THAT IS DENYING CHRIST AND NOT ACCEPTING HIM. Sin is ungodly and it separates us from God. God does not bless those who sin because sin is bad and God is perfect He is good. If God kept out sinners……..there would be no one in Heaven. But like he told the prostitute…GO AND SIN NO MORE. We should make attempts to clean up our lives and run from sin.

Johnny - posted on 04/23/2010

Diane, you are reading things that aren't there. I have never and will never claim to be a Christian. I do not even "believe" in god. I do not disbelieve either. I am not sure where you have gotten the idea that I share the Christian faith?

It is and will always be the choice of the mother as to whether or not she wishes to carry her baby to term. Until the birth, the child is a parasite living off her body. I am firmly against abortion for myself, but I have no doubt that if I attempt to enforce that choice on anyone else, no good will come of it. I do not believe that every life is precious or a gift from god. You are welcome to compare me to Hitler, it simply makes you seem absurd to any thinking person. And if that makes me pro-abortion in your eyes, I am unconcerned. I feel that I have great compassion for living creatures, and sometimes compassion includes allowing those who will not have a satisfactory existence to cease to be. It is for the same reasons that I support the right to be euthanasized and a person's right to suicide.

You may be right that most illegal abortions were performed by doctors, I am not that educated on US abortion history, not being an American and all. I am much more informed about world statistics around countries that outlaw abortion vs. those where it is legal, and it does make a difference in maternal death rates in that case. Many doctors did perform illegal abortions, and many women died from those doctor's malpractice. They had no redress if improperly treated because they had sought an illegal procedure, and they could be legally punished if they sought medical help for complications. Just because it was doctors did not make it safe. Can you imagine how many Americans would die every year if surgeries in general were not legal? There may be doctors who would continue to perform them, but there are complications for all surgeries that require medical follow up. Thousands would die if they could not receive that follow up care.

And since women are able to access abortions anyway, and do so, what is the purpose of making it illegal? To punish them for thwarting "god" I suppose.

Rosie - posted on 04/23/2010

diane said -I also love gays, I love all sinners, but I do not condone my sin or theirs. Homosexual, heterosexual sex outside marriage is sin and wrong in Gods eyes. This is scriptural. If I am wrong…….please post the scriptures where God condones what you say is ok. Use the OT or the NT or both…….post one example of a same sex marriage or where God condones sex with people who are not married. This is not about love….it’s about obedience to God’s Word

how are you doing at obeying gods word? i mean i seriously don't think that you think you should be killed for eating shellfish, and i'm not positive but i can almost guarantee that your ears are pierced-another no no from god. are your sons circumcised? do you wear 2 different types of fabric at the same time-uh oh YOU'RE AN INFIDEL!!!!! why are you not as adamant about these issues as you are about gay marriage? i know you say a sin is a sin and you love all, you just don't love the sin. well, tell me when was the last time you were at a rally against lying? are there even rallys against lying? NO. last but not least, you take the word of god very seriously am i right? so it would be safe to assume that you would take the word of his son very seriously as well. funny how jesus never ONCE mentions it the whole time he was here. don't you think if it was so important jesus would've probably brought that up once or twice? but the one thing that jesus brings up over and over again is the only way to get to heaven is by believing in god. he doesn't say, well, if you're straight and you believe in god, then you'll get into heaven. straight people aren't the only ones that get into heaven diane, so why treat them any different while they're on earth? it's beyond all comprehension to me.

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

CAROL you said, “As for my baby killing comment, have you never heard of sarcasm? I am actually very against abortion, but I live in the real world, where back alley abortions, infanticide and high rates of maternal death happen in places where women do not have the right to choose an abortion.”
Oh yes…….and I have used it here several times and it didn’t go over well. I think some topics one can joke about…….this one however I am not so sure. You are not against abortion if you condone someone’s right to do it sorry.

I am going to definitely call you out on maternal death. This is a lie. Less than 1% of all abortion are done to save the mother. 99% of all abortions on demand are for social reasons. This is an excuse and so is the coat hanger excuse.
“Since 90% of pre-1973 illegal abortions were done by doctors, it’s safe to assume many physicians would continue to give abortions.”From the book, “Pro-life Answers to Pro-choice Questions,” by Randy Alcorn
“For decades prior to abortion being legalized in the United States around 85% of illegal abortions were done by reputable doctors in their local clinics.”
Alfred Kinsey, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, Ohio: Hayes Publishing Co., 1988), 169.
In 1960, Planned Parenthood stated that 90% of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians.”Mary Calderone, Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem,” American Journal of Health 50 (July 1960): 949
“Research confirms that the actual number of abortion deaths in the 25 year prior to 1973 averaged 250 a year, with a high of 388 in 1948.”In 1966 before the state legalized abortion, 120 mothers died from abortion. By 1972, abortion was still illegal in 80% of the country but the use of antibiotics had greatly reduced the risk. The number dropped to 39 maternal deaths from abortion that year.”
U.S Bureau of Vital Statistics
If you’re pro-life you do not want any lives lost period. And from the child’s viewpoint there is no such thing as a safe abortion, painless legal abortion. For every two people who walk into an abortion clinic, only ONE comes out. The abortionists goal is to kill.
If your pro-life and against abortion and you believe like I do that abortion is murder and that it kills innocent children, I believe the goal should not be to make it as safe as possible, but to provide alternatives and legal restrictions that help avoid abortion in the first place.
Q “So I have decided the rights of the sentient, life-experienced woman supersede the rights of her unborn baby.”
You are pro-abortion. And if you claim to be a Christian……..show me scripture where God condones this killing. Is that which is in the womb God created or not?
Q “ And I also do not think that life is always the right choice. Non-existence may be better than existence for some. My neighbor fosters drug addicted babies, some of whom don't even make it to their 1st birthday. They live a life of endless, ceaseless agony. I am not convinced that "life" was the better choice for them. When there is no rape, no incest, no drug use, perfect and always utilized birth control methods, no child abuse and no violence against women, then I will support the outlawing of abortion.”
Ya know…….Hitler thought the same thing Carol. Wow.
Let’s kill to save the race. Let’s kill to solve the population problem, let’s just kill on demand for any reason. It’s not your right to choose for another living person right? You say no one should choose for the woman. Then you turn around and say the woman can choose life and death for her unborn. What is it carole? This is not godly thinking. No one is born into perfect circumstances and many people make it out of bad ones. The fact is…….you are able to give your opinion here because someone decided that you could live. Wow you have a voice.
Q “As long as women are able to get pregnant, there will always be unwanted pregnancies.”
There is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy. Maybe the mother does not want it but it could be placed with someone who does.
I can’t believe that you would want abortion legal; the killing to go on because you think the majority of women would die trying to abort themselves and die. Let’s kill millions to save a few.
Q “So here's the thing, Diane. If you're vehemently against abortion, then what do you think of the fact that they will still take place, and that some women will die having them? Does that bother you? Or do you see that as righteous "punishment" for what they've done?”
Bad things happen in life. But we can’t condone slaughtering millions to save how many that might or might not try. Maybe the majority would have them and be fine, maybe there would be more adoptions, maybe there would not be as much reckless sex….but one thing is for sure…..there would be less dead unborn babies and less women who will go through years of pain and depression. You put one life at the expense of another. You have no right to do this.
I would bet because most of you are probably Democrats based on abortion view alone, that you hated Bush and thought we should not be at war. And your excuse would be that innocent women and children have died in the crossfire. You probably think that Republicans are just war hungry people. I could ask you the same thing because you are pro-abortion and think those lives shouldn’t be saved either.
Q “And I'll ask you something else, Diane. If abortion is to be made illegal, what should the punishment be for the women who DON'T die from them? Let's for one moment, pretend that you're in charge of the U.S. You decide to outlaw abortion as your first order of business, as it's obviously very important to you.’
What was the punishment for hundreds of years when abortion was illegal? Simple, if you break a law you pay.
Or do you also support those that break the laws in our country. You either believe that which is in the womb is a person or not.
If you believe that women should have the right to choose……….then that choice should logically be throughout her pregnancy. I am sure you would agree right? Do you also think that if someone were to injure/kill a pregnant woman in an accident or by attack, that the one who did it should only be charged with one life? Do you think women should be prosecuted for taking drugs or alcohol during pregnancy? The girls that do home abortions, then dump the baby in the trash ….they should not be charged with anything right? Or do you just believe a woman should be able to hire the killing done?

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

***************************************************************
Q “Abortion is almost always a tragedy.”
And when is abortion and killing something innocent a tragedy?
Q“But that does not mean that I want to live in a world where abortion is illegal. That world would be even worse. We would not eradicate the moral antinomies around abortion by making it illegal, we would only create a different set of complications. Especially for women, it is important that they are allowed the freedom to make that difficult and deeply personal decision for themselves and their spouses.”
What this man says is ungodly. I believe there are ways to spot a false witness and what he says is a red flag. He obviously has a problem submitting to Gods authority, he is good at using one Scripture as truth at the exclusion of the rest. You notice he did not use one scripture to back his view up. He is of this world……….not of Gods if he thinks killing an unborn child is acceptable.
I could go on and on about his comments, IMO he is not standing on the entire Word of God.

IRIS…I don’t think I put words in anyone’s mouth certainly not yours. Could you post the quote where I did this please?
Q “Oh, and I also am a firm believer in equal rights for gays. One of my best friend is gay and (since we are on a religious roll) if God doesn't love her, he/she wouldn't be capable of love.”
I also love gays, I love all sinners, but I do not condone my sin or theirs. Homosexual, heterosexual sex outside marriage is sin and wrong in Gods eyes. This is scriptural. If I am wrong…….please post the scriptures where God condones what you say is ok. Use the OT or the NT or both…….post one example of a same sex marriage or where God condones sex with people who are not married. This is not about love….it’s about obedience to God’s Word.
So let me get this right…….You think it’s compassionate and loving to believe that someone should be able to kill a living human child to solve a problem and you think God would as well? Yes or no

DANA, I am sorry but I am trying to answer posts from multiple people here. I am the only one who is pro-life and you guys are all pro-choice and while my posts are long……..so are all of yours if you add them all up. I also would say that not many of you have answered my questions either.

CAROL……….Obama claims to be a Christian. He has made his faith an issue so therefore as a Christian I am weighing what he says and does……….and relating it to the Word. It does not add up. His position on abortion is ungodly. Many of you have said……..gee abortion is tough, heart wrenching, something women don’t take lightly. Don’t you think I know that? I know it’s murder and you won’t admit it but I think you guys do too or you would not say it’s a tough decision. The sick thing is that you guys still think it should be legal. Relate that to God’s Word and you do not have a leg to scripturally stand on I am sorry.
So I ask all who are Christian….to MAKE THE CASE FOR ABORTION USING THE ENTIRE BIBLE. Show me, teach me where I am wrong. Where are the scriptures that lead you to believe that abortion is ok in Gods eyes. Come on here is your chance.
CAROL you said, “Who are any of us to say which person is "doing it right". You forget that not all people interpret the bible the same way. Both the church I attend and the church that I used to work at support gay marriage and abortion rights. There are as many views on the bible as there are readers.”
But you are telling me I am doing it wrong. LOL You are judging me for judging others. We could not live without making righteous judgment to protect ourselves. This is not about hate; this is about following Gods Word. I would also ask you to make a case for gay marriage and use the scripture to do it. Give me scriptures, one example of a gay marriage in the Bible. Then tell me why God said….marriage is to be between one woman and one man. A man leaves and cleaves to whom?
Sin is sin in the bible and it’s clearly stated.
I can judge Obama’s heart. I have listened to what he has said, his interviews, his speeches, his actions. He slipped and said, “My Muslim faith.” I have not really called him a Christian I said, he CLAIMS. Whether or not he is saved no one will ever know that. But by his knowledge of scriptures in relation to his actions and fruits……I have my doubts.

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

********************************************************************************8
KRISTA said, “Nobody LIKES abortion, Diane...jeez. But most of us are pretty much of the same philosophy as Obama -- that they're going to happen anyway, so they should be safe, legal and rare.”
Are they rare or some form of birth control today?
Why should they be rare? If abortion is immoral then why condone it? Rape happens, but should we make that legal? Lets legalize drugs because people do them anyway might as well make that acceptable. And people speed…let’s take all speed limit signs down. So if the majority think it’s ok…….and are doing it, it must be right………?
Abortions are not safe and rare? Do you know why you do not hear about the cases when abortion goes bad? The cases that are not publicized happen for several reasons. Those that might go to court are settled. The women who bring the charges do not want their names to get in papers. They do not want to make their abortion public. Gee I wonder why in a culture that says killing is ok what’s wrong with abortion. ???? Most abortionists demand a confidentiality agreement as part of their willingness to settle a case. So you never know the ones who really screw up.
People just assume clinics are clean like hospitals. Many abortion clinics do not even adhere to veterinary standards. Read the book, LIME 5, by Mark Crutcher. He exposes thousands upon thousands of cases of women who have died, been deformed, made sterile by abortion providers. The actual cases and numbers are given in the book. He also documents clinics and safety records.
Warren Hern who is a NAF Board member, former head of its Clinical Guidelines Committee and author of the book Abortion Practice-helped write NAF’s abortion standards, but now calls them “ornamental,” cosmetic,” and “meaningless.” He also says that NAF “has never pursued a serious program of standards implementation and program evaluation,” adding that, “Following good standards costs money. And people don’t want to do that.” He also points out in his book that NAF has never implemented a system to monitor whether its facilities are following its standards.
The American Medical News, “Claiming Abortion Malpractice,” By Diane Gianelli, 2/6/95
Women are so desperate to kill to solve their problem they will go anywhere and do anything in order to do it.
I also would add that legal research services track only cases that actually go to trial. So, except in those rare instances in which a settled case is sensational enough to be covered by the media, there is little chance that we could even find out it exists. Under the current system, there is absolutely no definite way to have accurate information on this subject, and without profound systematic changes in the system there never will be.

2 Thess 1:8-9 (NIV) He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction...

Diane - posted on 04/23/2010

I am trying to answer all the people who have posted here........so I will divide it up in several posts.

ESTHER I read the sermon by Charles Rush and I do not believe the points he makes reflects scripture. In fact he does not even use the Bible to make points. He does not use one to make a point.
I would like to address a few points that he makes.
“There is a place for anger. Jesus got angry. There is a place for righteous indignation. Jesus was righteously indignant. But.. he didn't stay mad. He didn't stay indignant. He didn't live out of this spiritual dimension. He lived out of healing, love, and he taught us the higher way of reconciliation, forgiveness, and peace.”
First of all I hate abortion, I do not hate those that do them or perform them. Rush assumes that people who oppose abortion hate and hold grudges. Many people who share his beliefs on abortion bring up the murder of Tiller to show the hatred from those that are pro-life. They use this one instance and lump all pro-lifers into this category. There are millions of abortions that happen in this country every year. There are thousands of abortion clinics as well, plenty of opportunities for violence and how many acts of violence happen against those that are doing the killing? I stand in front of PP and we pray. We do not shout, yell, call names…(like many do here I might add) we want to help women going in, and coming out. That is what pro-aborts do not get; that we can hate the sin, but not the sinner. God will win in the end.
Rom 1:18 “ For God's anger is being revealed from Heaven against all impiety and against the iniquity of men who through iniquity suppress the truth. God is angry.” God will judge. Every sin ever committed will be accounted for. No one is "getting away with" anything.
Rom 1:32 “They know well enough the just decree of God, that those who behave like this deserve to die, and yet they do it; not only so, they actually applaud such practices.”
Rush knows well enough from reading scripture that God would never condone abortion but he chooses to go by what society says instead.
I sit here and wonder why not one of you pro-abort Christians can make a case for abortion except to say the women has the right because it’s her body. Not one of you have posted one scripture that shows where abortion in ANY CASE, is godly. You think that because I believe in protecting life that I am the bad guy. Does God see it that way? Does God think I am horrible for standing up for those you guys kick to the curb?
Rush has a problem. He can’t commit or submit to Gods authority. What does that say about his heart or anyone who believes killing is an acceptable way to solve a problem? It’s even worse to know that some people know it’s wrong and still condone it and look away. Would you also condone your neighbor if you knew they were beating their children? Esther you say I do not have compassion? You have the gall to call me out simply because I am pro-life and against killing. You are the one whose position is ungodly and gruesome. I pray that God changes your heart. He changed mine.
Zeph 2:3 (NIV) "Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord's anger."
Zeph 1:14-15,18 (NIV) "The great day of the Lord is near--near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter... That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish... In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth."

Krista - posted on 04/22/2010

Oooh, Carol! Don't forget about no fetal abnormalities that are incompatible with life! 'Cause yeah...those happen too.



And your neighbour is an incredible human being for doing what she does. It must be incredibly heartbreaking for her.



And you make an excellent point. I don't like abortion. It breaks my heart. It really does.



However, there ARE cases where it's medically necessary. What on earth kind of society would we be where a woman whose life is threatened by a pregnancy has to go through the pregnancy anyway?



And even in cases where it's elective, and not medically necessary, there is this fact: outlawing it is not going to make it go away.



As long as women are able to get pregnant, there will always be unwanted pregnancies. Which means that there will always be abortions. The difference will be that the safety of these procedures will be questionable. Which means that there will be a very high risk of uterine infection, excessive bleeding, and yes...even death.



So here's the thing, Diane. If you're vehemently against abortion, then what do you think of the fact that they will still take place, and that some women will die having them? Does that bother you? Or do you see that as righteous "punishment" for what they've done?



And I'll ask you something else, Diane. If abortion is to be made illegal, what should the punishment be for the women who DON'T die from them? Let's for one moment, pretend that you're in charge of the U.S. You decide to outlaw abortion as your first order of business, as it's obviously very important to you.



What's the penalty for women who get them? What's the penalty for doctors who perform them? What's the penalty for someone who drives them to the clinic? Are you going to treat it like murder? You've said flat-out that it IS murder, so should all of these women be going to maximum-security prisons along with the doctors?



Nobody LIKES abortion, Diane...jeez. But most of us are pretty much of the same philosophy as Obama -- that they're going to happen anyway, so they should be safe, legal and rare.

Johnny - posted on 04/22/2010

Diane, you've completely missed my point. YOUR version of Christianity is not the only one out there. Obama is not beholden to what Diane Sapiro thinks is the right way to be a Christian. He is beholden to his own heart and his own faith. It is his relationship with god, and no one has any right to question that. Question his policies, his perspective, etc. but someone's faith is something that should be respected as personal choice. Who are any of us to say which person is "doing it right". You forget that not all people interpret the bible the same way. Both the church I attend and the church that I used to work at support gay marriage and abortion rights. There are as many views on the bible as there are readers.

By the way, you spent quite a bit of time talking about Obama's muslim faith early on in this thread, and now he's a Christian that just isn't a good enough one? Which is it Diane?

As for my baby killing comment, have you never heard of sarcasm? I am actually very against abortion, but I live in the real world, where back alley abortions, infanticide and high rates of maternal death happen in places where women do not have the right to choose an abortion. So I have decided the rights of the sentient, life-experienced woman supersede the rights of her unborn baby. And I also do not think that life is always the right choice. Non-existence may be better than existence for some. My neighbor fosters drug addicted babies, some of whom don't even make it to their 1st birthday. They live a life of endless, ceaseless agony. I am not convinced that "life" was the better choice for them. When there is no rape, no incest, no drug use, perfect and always utilized birth control methods, no child abuse and no violence against women, then I will support the outlawing of abortion.

Dana - posted on 04/22/2010

Diane why is it that you never address FACTS that we put before you? You start your paragraph as if you're going to reply about Esther wanting to end torture and you just go off on another tangent that has nothing to do with torture and of course it comes back to abortion. Honestly you're so consumed with abortion no one can take you seriously when trying to debate. It's the same extreme over and over. Do you really think you'll win anyone over by talking like that? I doubt you'll even reply to my post in a sensible matter because I'm making sense, can't have that, can we?

Iris - posted on 04/22/2010

Aren’t you for abortion up until natural delivery? I assumed you would be because you said yourself every woman should have the choice to abort. So why wouldn’t a woman in late term not be included? You wouldn’t deny someone that right would you? I thought it was the woman’s choice, and her body.

Esther - posted on 04/22/2010

lmao - from another one of this pastor's sermons: "I got a note recently from a friend of mine, a southerner, who now teaches at Andover Newton Seminary in Boston. It was a quote about our youth from a book about Texas. It said ‘There were two things that they taught us growing up in Lubbock. The first is that we are awful, sinful, miserable creatures who are going straight to hell and God loves us. The other was that sex was dirty, nasty, immoral and disgusting but it was so special you should save it only for the one you love. And people wonder why we grew up crazy.’"



I guess maybe I should feel more compassion and understanding for people raised in such a manner.

Esther - posted on 04/22/2010

Diane - it is impossible to have a debate with you because you twist and turn everything we say beyond recognition. So let me just end this by saying that I am blown away by your lack of humility, empathy and compassion, particularly from someone professing to be so consumed with God's will. Christians interpret scripture differently every minute of every day. It is quite obvious that you think your interpretation is the only right one, but I beg to differ. There are even clergymen who think abortion should remain legal. I am in agreement with them. Read this sermon. It will drive you up the wall, but that's seems to be where you reside most of the time anyway:



http://christchurchsummit.org/Sermons-20...

Diane - posted on 04/22/2010

Esther…..You want torture ended. Well what right would you have to tell someone from another culture that their actions might be wrong if that culture condones it? If we did it your way we would have no laws and everything would go. Laws there meant to protect people.
Do you believe a person has the right to smoke? You do not have the right to tell someone that they can’t do you? I mean if you don’t like the smoke, you could always walk away. It’s the persons body…right? Why are we forced to wear seatbelts? Why can’t we marry more than one person?
“The whole "people cared when it showed the majority wanted Obama" they cared because it was called an election. And the majority got what they wanted.”
It was a fair election, I am not saying that it wasn’t. Were the Democrats civil and nice to Bush? Did they give him the benefit of the doubt? Did they ever attack him? Did they call him names and question his every call? Did people get what they wanted with Obama…I think the polls show something different.
You and I both know the answers to each one of these questions. The parties hate each other. You say we can’t do to Obama what was done to Bush for eight years? Oh we got change…….but was it good? Did it reflect what Americans wanted? No way.
Let me ask you this…have you read the two thousand page Health care law?

Abortion is the lesser of two evils………..barbaric thinking. Sorry Hitler thought the same way and so did Sanger the founder of PP. To kill an innocent child to solve a problem…..unbelievable. To kill a child because it is not the right sex, is not perfect, to small, woman has to many children, she is in school, does not know the father, is on drugs, just does not want it because it will give her stretch marks……….to SOLVE A PROBLEM…..man what else do you do to solve problems? It amazed me how far people will go for themselves.
You did not answer my question.
If Obama said……I am sick of the bitching going on so we will take a vote and Americans can decide.
So the ballot comes out and you have to blacken in one circle
Box one says………NO ABORTIONS but to save the life of the mother.
Box two says………PRO-CHOICE every woman should be allowed to kill on demand.
Which lines kills? If you allow choice, your vote goes for those who kill, even if you don’t kill yourself.
You think it’s some big compromise for the pro-choicer to say I voted to allow others to kill even if I do not do it myself……? It’s the same thing…….the votes the same.

I’m going to flat out ask you……….does abortion kill a child or not? You said abortion should not be taken lightly……..why? If abortion doesn’t kill children, then why don’t you want the pro-abort label? And if it kills children, then how on earth could you condone the act? You even mention that millions of women do not take abortion lightly. Sure they don’t, they know it kills. Might explain why I see so many women come out of abortion clinics crying. There is right and there is wrong. How a person can condone murder when they know its wrong….is beyond me. I think it is a person’s view on this topic that forms all other areas of their life.
You do not think that abortions should be done past the first trimester. How sweet of you. The heart starts beating some twenty days after conception and you still think it’s ok. You said that every woman should have the right because it’s her body. What after the first trimester it’s not her body anymore? Or wow, the fetus all of a sudden…….tada, becomes a baby at some date you have come up with on your own !!!!! What if the doc got the due date wrong, and you killed to early?
Most women who get abortion today will get multiple abortions….so it could be considered a form of birth control. Go read the research at the Guttmacher Institute. Four in ten pregnancies end in abortion in the United States. Each year, about two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion. About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.
http://www.guttmacher.org/

You say I am insane for standing up for the unborn by opposing abortion….while you condone the act …..that is what is incredible. And the way you joke about it shows your heart. Then you give me some site that condones Tiller. There is evil in this world. I do not condone the way Tiller was killed, to imply that I do is just mean and spiteful. Tiller killed late term babies for all sorts of reasons. And why wouldn’t it have been more humane for them to induce, let the child be born, and nature take its course. Funny you tell me to leave God out and then you post this sad story.
This comment appeared in one story……..” I am a firm believer in a woman's right to choose to abort, but there must be a sane limit to the ability to obtain an obscenely large number. And it's difficult to envision the circumstance where the need to have such a late-term procedure would be truly justified.”
This is hilarious. Let’s just set a reasonable number of children to kill. Obama would never go for that one, nor would PP, they would lose income.
Now let me get this straight….it’s a womans body, she has the right to kill…….like Commie Jenny says, its HER UTERUS. But now you want to enslave her by limiting how many she kills. You want to limit her, enslave her. How is that pro-choice. You guys are all over the board here.
You brought up God……funny all these stories were religious. Now do we bring God into this or not?
You have read the bible……..great then show me scripture where God condones sex outside marriage. Show me one instance of a gay union, marriage. Use the entire bible…………and show the verses.
Then tell me what Christ said……..in John 14:6 and interpret this one for me.
Katie…………….I am fine and forgiven. I work in this field because I want women to get the truth, the truth PP does not want them to get. I want them to know the facts particularly the facts that science provides us, that life, human life starts at conception.
I am not talking to the woman who had a miscarriage, who did not intentionally try to kill, or hire it done. I am talking to those who laugh at abortion and think its nothing. Of course I know they would not want the link. They know what it is and I am sure they could not get through the first minute.
It is just disheartening to know that there are people that condone the act and laugh about it like several women have done here.
You tell me to use my brain, how sweet of you. I would plead, ask, beg that some of you use your heart. Use it to see the injustice done to innocent children in the womb.
I understand why most of you are lashing out by calling me names and judging me………..you condone abortion and it’s a barbaric and ugly act.

Diane - posted on 04/22/2010

Aren’t you for abortion up until natural delivery? I assumed you would be because you said yourself every woman should have the choice to abort. So why wouldn’t a woman in late term not be included? You wouldn’t deny someone that right would you? I thought it was the woman’s choice, and her body.

Iris you said……”There are so many religions in USA that I find your posts quite offensive and pushy. This is a political debating forum not RELIGIOUS debating forum. Separation of Church and State, remember?”

Does that mean we can’t discuss Obama ? He obviously does not know about separation of church/state because he makes religious comments all the time. Show me in the Constitution where the words “separation of church and state” appear.

Carol…..the reason I bring up religion and Obama is because he has made his public. He claims to be a Christian. You are right I do not have the right to judge nonbelievers because they do not know better and God will deal with them. But Obama says he is Christian.
I am not trying to convert anyone here. I have not made fun of any religion either. I simply use scripture to show where I believe Obama is in error. Where did I say that you should follow my religion? And all I said about atheism is that it is an impossible position to have because to know there is no God you would have to possess all knowledge. Even Einstein said it was impossible to do. Someone could say, “I highly doubt, I don’t think based on the evidence that God exists”…. But to say that “there is no God,” is not possible.

Carol you also said, “No one is forcing you to have an abortion, why is it your right to stop others? You’re right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins.
But then again, I'm also all for baby killing :)”

Wow

Let’s forget religion and God altogether ok. Let’s just go by what medical science says about life in the womb. I do NOT NEED GOD TO SHOW THAT KILLING THE UNBORN IN THE WOMB is really murder. I work with people who do not hold to any god faith and they have no problem figuring out that abortion kills a living human being.

Our laws should protect all humans in fact the Constitution guarantees this. Abortion was once considered murder and wrong. Why?

“The Constitution contains no right to abortion,” Justice Antonin Scalia said, “It is not to be found in the longstanding traditions of our society, nor can it be logically deduced from the text of the Constitution.” In fact this documents emphasis is on our God-given right to life.


“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Declaration of Independence

The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution promise that no person shall be deprived of life without due process of law. Do the unborn get due process?

And I knew you were pro-baby killing that came as no surprise. : ) How you would joke about something so serious however is just sad.


Krista you said, “So call the Dems and Obama evil all you want, but your Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites: they spout about family values and the sanctity of life, while they screw around on their wives, sexually harass underage pages, and conveniently never take care of the major issue that keeps people voting for them. The "Party of Family Values", my foot.”

Well I won’t deny that many are. I think there are crooked politicians on both sides. I could ask you why Democrats have not ended poverty. They say they are for the little people, that the rich should give to the poor (tell Hollywood that)….Have they not been in control for periods of eight years? I think Clinton was in eight years, why did he not end poverty or do more for the poor?

We will see come November if the Polls are right and people are fed up with Obama and his socialist agenda. The Democrats are worried…maybe that’s why Obama just went to bat for Boxer….she is in trouble. I might ask………why? Why aren’t people happy with Barack?

And Jenny………Obama was voted in fair and square, people wanted change. His popularity has taken a huge nosedive. Why? Do you think the White House is happy with these poll results?

“Rasmussen has him at 46 percent; Quinnipiac at 45; in Gallup he’s clinging to 50. The Allstate/National Journal Heartland Monitor Poll released Thursday had some heart-stopping numbers for Democrats: The president’s job approval was at 47 percent, down from 61 percent in April. Only 26 percent of respondents said they strongly approved of the president’s performance, compared to 38 percent in April. Just 39 percent said they would probably vote to reelect him, just 23 percent definitely.”

Are you saying these polls are all biased? Are you saying that this does not represent a cross section of the country that every one of them are wrong?

Obama’s approval rating is among one of the lowest since Eisenhower.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...

http://www.drudge.com/news/130130/poll-5...

Why so low?

Jenny said, “There will be no shortage of doctros. Where will they go? Canada with our Universal Healthcare and even lower doctor wages? The fine economy and safe cities of Mexico? Stop fear mongering.”

There is already a shortage of doctors and the new law will make it even worse. So I take it you don’t think too much of the Canadian healthcare system. Just Google doctors shortage and see for yourself.


Pro-abortion are those that believe a woman has the right to kill if they want to end their child’s life. That also includes those that are pro-choice. There most certainly is a term that means pro-abortion. If you are pro you are for something. Someone who believes a woman has the right to kill an unborn child is pro-abortion and anti-life for that child. If you do not believe in abortion at all, you are anti-abortion and pro-life. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this?

Jenny you said, “Diane: I honestly don't care if it is considered killing children by anyone, even though that is flat wrong. My uterus is MINE. You don't get a say what happens and neither does the government. I am never having another child ever. My decision is made. This is the key part you don't get: not all children are wanted and not all babies are miracles. It sounds nice in the Hallmark card but it is not reality. Prochoice is the only acceptable stance to have. Don't like abortions, don't have one. “


So you do not believe that the life in the womb is a separate human being. You do not consider abortion killing anything because you do not give the unborn personhood.
So you are for abortion for all nine months do I understand you correctly? You believe a woman should be able to walk into a clinic at nine months and kill her unborn. Am I right?


Now what happens should this child makes it through the abortion, because this happens more times than you know? Do you agree to just kill the child outside the womb?


Are you pro infanticide as well?

Jenny said, “Diane: don't try to argue facts with metaphors. Christians make the unbeleivable claim there is a god, they must provide the proof.”


Did I say I could prove it Jenny? I believe that creation says there is a God. I believe by faith. I believe a case can be made and that the scriptures are right. We all live by faith, even if the faith is in ourselves.

An atheist makes a faith statement. I BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD. That is a statement of fact. So why would they not have to prove it?

Rosie - posted on 04/21/2010

diane i really think you have some unresolved issues from your own abortion. i know that in a time of great loss, and a very stressful decision you had to make that god was your shining grace through it all. i can completely get that. but seriously, you've turned what happened to you into some crazy desire to take back what you did, and make up for what you lost. i find it utterly sad, and i would hope that you can see that what you are doing isn't helping.

like jenny said there are some women on here who have had misscarriages that really don't feel like looking at aborted fetuses. i'm one of them. i've had the great sound effects of my dead child being sucked out of me as well, would you like to give us an audio of it too so we can all hear how great it sounds? use the brain that "god" gave you and think about things sometimes. just because i support other peoples right to an abortion doesn't mean i go willy nilly in favor of killing every baby that anybody ever becomes pregnant with. it's ignorant to think so. get over yourself and get some help.

Krista - posted on 04/21/2010

It's a liberal plot.

Jenny - posted on 04/21/2010

I was thinking that too Dana. Sure wish we had our formatting bar back. I long for the days of easily typing in colour. *sigh*



Ok, I tried adding in blockquotes but the cursor will go wher eI click and it won't let me scroll down the page. I give up. Please fix this COM!

Dana - posted on 04/21/2010

Sometimes it's really hard to follow these convo's when people aren't using quotes. Please try this out so we can all follow easily. If you want to quote someone, type < blockquote> copied and pasted content here < /blockquote>



As you can see, I left a space between the < and the b & a space between the < and / so it wouldn't quote what I was saying. lol When you type it out, don't leave a space.

Esther - posted on 04/21/2010

Wow - where to start refuting that novel. Obama is a Christian and his interpretation of scripture is clearly very different from yours. I love how you are so convinced of your own infallibility that your interpretation of this document (which was written down by men, translated, interpreted, written down again, interpreted some more etc. etc. over the centuries) must be the only right one. I guess all those countless people in clergy who can't even agree on what different things mean and how they should be interpreted should just get your phone number and ask for clarification and Obama MUST be evil for not having done that already. *eye roll*

As for people wanting leaders who fight for their values etc. - guess what? I got that this time around!! It's called democracy. The majority won. Suck it up. Your values aren't the only ones who need representing. I want a woman's right to privacy protected. I want the environment protected. I want torture to stop immediately. I don't want any more wars started for no reason (and people killed for no reason - which can't make God thrilled), etc. etc. etc. etc. I also want leaders that are smarter than I am. The whole "people cared when it showed the majority wanted Obama" they cared because it was called an election. And the majority got what they wanted. In 2004 the majority wanted Bush and we had to suck it up (trust me, it was beyond hard to swallow). Clearly 2001 was a different story. And about healthcare - NOBODY got socialized healthcare. If only! Socialized healthcare would have meant the whole profit consideration would have been eliminated. We would have had a single payer system. What we got instead is sooooo far from that that your whole assertion is laughable. We didn't even get a public option for crying out loud.

Jenny's comment about being pro-choice not equaling pro-abortion makes PERFECT sense to anyone who hasn't closed their mind completely. I think abortion is sometimes the lesser of two evils. Not desirable, not something to be taken lightly, but sometimes the right choice nonetheless. I don't think abortions should be allowed past the first trimester EXCEPT (!!!!!) when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or the child's life will be insufferable. You are foaming at the mouth about abortion Diane, but YOU are the one who makes no sense. Do you honestly believe that there are millions of people (the pro-choice ones) who take pleasure in abortions? Who just cannot wait to kill yet another infant. Preferably in as painful a manner as possible. YAY!! We get to crush another skull. PARTY!! Honestly - you'd have to be pretty darn near certifyably insane to believe that. Instead of just listening to catchy talking points about crushed skulls, you may want to fire up your intellect and delve a little deeper. Read some of these stories for example and then tell us what evil baby murderers these people are: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th...

Since you didn't open any of the links I previously sent, I'll make it easy and just copy & paste one of the stories right here:

At 17 weeks gestation our baby had been diagnosed with major heart defects requiring a minimum of three risky open-heart surgeries beginning at birth, and would later require a heart transplant. At 19 weeks we were finally given our amnio results which revealed our baby also had Trisomy 21.

A surgeon at the major teaching hospital where we'd had our fetal echocardiogram informed us that even if our baby somehow survived his palliative surgeries, this latest diagnosis meant he would not ever be eligible for a heart transplant. As we sat talking quietly in our living room, our priest shared with us that he’d spent time at the same hospital where we’d had our fetal echocardiogram and where our son would have had surgery.

He was there to support the family of a three-month-old who was having heart surgery. In the three weeks or so that he tended to this family, he also met 10 other families in the waiting room, each of whom also had young babies undergoing heart surgery. Sadly, within the short space of time our priest was there, every single one of those babies died.

Our priest came away from that experience feeling that this world-renowned children’s hospital was basically experimenting on babies. He saw their futile suffering and likened it to being crucified. The family he had gone there to support later told him that if they had only known what their baby would be forced to go through before dying, they would never have chosen surgery. Our priest told us that he believed we were not choosing our son’s death, only choosing the timing of his death in order to spare him a great deal of suffering. Something he said that brought us great comfort was “God knows what is in your hearts.” God knows our choice was based on mercy and compassion. Who would better understand our hearts than God, who made the choice for His own Son to die?

On atheism ….. An athiest says there is no god. When a person says there is no God, that person violates a basic philosophical principle. He is a person with a finite understanding making an absolute statement about the nature of infinity. It would be like asking how much total knowledge mankind possesses. Albert Einstein said that mankind grasps less than one percent of total knowledge. If we have only one percent of total knowledge, would it not be possible for God to exist in the other ninety-nine percent?

Jenny - posted on 04/21/2010

Jenny ….

Obama is not keeping his faith from the public, he talks about it all the time. Go to U tube search Obama religious remarks and there will be enough to keep you busy. You can hear the words coming from his own mouth…..not a second or third source. Did you know he even invited Christians to the White House this past Easter and they prayed. You are right it’s not about my idea of what is moral…it’s about Gods. And we should look to the scriptures for answers. I have looked and I see no evidence that shows that abortion is a godly thing to do.





Diane: Here is the one and only thing that needs to be said about Obama's faith...it's none of your business and it is completely irrelevant. PERIOD. I don't even know what our Prime Minister's faith is and I really don't care, it has zero to do with governing a nation.





What I am saying Jenny that if they claim to be Christian then their pro-choice stance is ungodly. If I am wrong……then show me scriptures that show God condones free choice to kill unborns. I want to see scriptures in favor of abortion. Just because He never uses the word does not mean that He is for it. Christ never mentions the word rape or child abuse either does that mean He would condone them?





Diane: I don't care about scripture and the bible is completely fiction to me. The problem is you are saying Christians, some extremely intelligent with a thourough understanding of the bible, are ungodly because it doesn't match up with Diane's beleifs.



The bible mentions alot of things noone presently follows. It is constantly taken out of context and twisted around to fit one's preconceived belief structure. Unless you follow the bible 100%, ie: don't cut your hair EVER, than you are a cherry picker and don't get to tell other people what they need to do to be following in the bible.



“We want our country back”……..



We want leaders who care what we the people think. The majority of Americans did not want socialized medicine. Every public poll taken shows what Americans want. The LEFT do not like polls all of a sudden….they were ok when they showed that the majority wanted and liked Obama. Now his popularity is at an all time low. Gee I wonder why? He has not kept half of his campaign promises and he is headed us towards socialism. He believes that the government should be in control of everything. Socialized schools already exist…now socialized medicine. They predict that there will be a shortage of doctors because of what has happened.



Diane: This is just a bunch if whining garbage. Obama was VOTED into office, by a MAJORITY, it's the only poll that counts. There are polls out there to support any view you want. You're country wasn't taken by anyone, you're whining because a democrat won and you will not accept him as YOUR president. It is very unpatriotic.



BTW if you are gonig to accuse Obama of being a socailist, please understand what it actually is and not just repeat Tea Party soundbites.



There will be no shortage of doctros. Where will they go? Canada with our Universal Healthcare and even lower doctor wages? The fine economy and safe cities of Mexico? Stop fear mongering.



You made no sense when you said this sorry. “Diane, there is no such thing as being pro-abortion. That would imply you want to terminate ALL pregnancies. Please skip the inflammatory remarks. They get you nowhere.”



Not all women want to have or get abortions, they are against abortions and do not feel a woman should be able to kill to solve her problem. These people are in the anti-abortion group. They do not believe free choice should include abortion. There are other women/people that think choice should be an option even though they do not condone it. And then there are those that do not care about the life in the womb and think abortion is a great way to solve a problem. They both are in the pro-abortion camp. What was your point?



Diane: Pro would be the opposite of anti. If Anti Abortion means no abortions for anyone then Pro Abortion means abortions for ___________. It wasn't a confusing statement Diane.





Esther….

I give because I want to give. I tithe at church and I donate to organizations that help others. We are a giving nation. We should give because it is in our hearts to give, not because the government forces us to give. Where in the Bible did God talk about forced distribution? A Christian gives because they love God because they take what He said seriously. Jesus wants us to believe in Him, not because we are forced but because we have free will and choose to do so. I pay taxes because that is scriptural. I do not like it that much of my taxes go towards abortion, but I pay them anyway. That does not mean however that I should stop questioning the powers that be, and the government. Had people stood up against Hitler, many Christians and Jews would have survived. Should people have just sat back and allowed slavery to continue? Christ did not say that believers were to roll over and play dead.



I am going to try kindly and respectfully to say this Esther. If you are pro-choice you stand in the same line as those who vote to allow the unborn to be slaughtered. Do you think that your moral position is better because you personally don’t believe abortion is right but you think women should have the right to kill anyway?



If we had a vote nationwide…and the people were ask to either vote against abortion or pro-choice….which line would you be in? The line against abortion would save lives and not give women the choice. The pro-choice line……would allow the killing to continue.



If abortion doesn’t kill children Esther, why would someone be opposed to it? If it does kill children, why would someone defend another’s right to do it? Your position is morally baffling. It’s like someone saying, “I’m against child abuse but I defend my neighbors right to beat the hell out of his children.” You turn a blind eye.





Diane: I honestly don't care if it is considered killing children by anyone, even though that is flat wrong. My uterus is MINE. You don't get a say what happens and neither does the government. I am never having another child ever. My decision is made. This is the key part you don't get: not all children are wanted and not all babies are miracles. It sounds nice in the Hallmark card but it is not reality. Prochoice is the only acceptable stance to have. Don't like abortions, don't have one.





You know Esther, you said you hate Christians the way they tell people that what they are doing is wrong, yet you really are doing the same to me. I have no right to tell a nonbeliever about right and wrong because they don’t get it. Ha Ha Ha ha! God will deal with them. But God says I should make righteous judgment concerning a believer, if I do it with love and the right intentions. My intentions are honorable, I hate no one here. I question those who claim to be Christian and believe abortion should be acceptable. In that case I would ask them to make a scriptural case for abortion.



You don't need a scriptual case Diane: my uterus, my decision.



What was the message of the Bible? Why did Christ come? Do you think that God talked about goodness and wonderful feel good things or hell and the wrath to come to those who do not believe. Christ talked about hell more than He ever talked about heaven. Why? He said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life….NO ONE comes to the Father except by ME.” He did not say there were many ways to the Father, but rather that He was the ONLY WAY. He said unless you have Him, accepted Him, that those who don’t will die in their sin. God is much more than just LOVE. You say you are not a Christian…but you presume to know what the Word says. Have you ever read the Bible?

Christ came to save. He came for sinners........not because we are good but because we are bad.



Krista you said that if I let the fact that someone is pro-choice colour my entire impression of them as a human being, then that's my loss. Well I am a Christian and the Bible is my guide book, something I use to form my opinions about the world. I take what God says seriously, especially what He commands me to do. And He commands me to do a few things like to love Him more than anything else, to spread the Gospel, stand up for the Truth and to love my neighbor as myself. I try to do this especially love those who have morals contrary to Gods. I won’t lie sometimes this is hard to do especially when I have seen abortion up front in living color and someone thinks abortion is ok. If you have ever seen one it is gruesome. To think of what goes on however small the fetus is……..literally drives me to sob sometimes. So I pray for people who have beliefs like this, that God changes their heart. I know it can happen, He changed me.



If you would like to see a live abortion I will send you a link if you would like. Then you can see for yourself what you so easily condone.





Yes Diane, I'm sure everyone wants to watch abotions. Is that what you have to resort to to get your point across? I'm sure the moms here who have experienced miscarraiges would really appreciate it. /sarcasm





All you who ask what Republicans have done to stop or end abortion…don’t get one thing straight. No party can end abortion, the SCOTUS would have to do that. Why do you think it is so important who gets nominated to the bench. Do you think Obama would put a pro-life or a pro-abortion candidate up for nomination?



Every time Republicans do something the Democrats when in office overturn it. They did not want our taxes going towards abortion, they wanted parental notification, they wanted the fetal pain bill…….I could list of a handful of things that the Democrats overturned. Democrats do not want parents informed, they do not care if the baby should they make it through an abortion and live, are saved, that after a certain gestational age the fetus get pain medication before their skulls are crushed. They want abortion on demand for any reason a woman can come up with.



You tell me what kind of a person would not want to at least give the unborn pain meds before they are killed alive. WE SEDATE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON DEATH ROW WHEN THEY ARE EXECUTED FOR GOSH SAKES. But oh no….the life in the womb does not deserve respect even at death.



I would like to mention Esther that abortion is rarely done on a woman to save her life. In most circumstances both mother and baby can be saved. Guttmaucher says less than one percent of all abortion are done because of health of the mother. Abortion does not change, it is still killing a living human being.



Of course all you pro-choicers who believe that a woman should have the right to kill her baby do believe that she should have this right until the natural delivery of the baby, right? You certainly would not want to deny her freedom and take her right away to decide.



Health care bill……..there is so much more in this two thousand page thing than anyone knows. Even most Democrats have not totally read it. It is unconstitutional and it will be challenged. It is a tool to control the masses and a chance for the government to run our lives and force us to do things we do not want to do. What it does is rape the rich. They will foot the bill. Soon like Europe I read, the rich will be footing the bill for vacations for those who can’t afford them.





On atheism ….. An athiest says there is no god. When a person says there is no God, that person violates a basic philosophical principle. He is a person with a finite understanding making an absolute statement about the nature of infinity. It would be like asking how much total knowledge mankind possesses. Albert Einstein said that mankind grasps less than one percent of total knowledge. If we have only one percent of total knowledge, would it not be possible for God to exist in the other ninety-nine percent?



It is impossible for a person with a finite mind to make an absolute statement that there is no God because to do so one would need to possess total knowledge. The no God theory can’t be proven.



Diane: don't try to argue facts with metaphors. Christians make the unbeleivable claim there is a god, they must provide the proof.



You are already an athiest about every god out there, I go one god further. You already understand what goes into not beleving in all those other gods. Why does the burden of proof not apply to yours?

Johnny - posted on 04/21/2010

Diane, this may come as a shock, but many people believe in God and do not follow the bible. Personally, I think the bible is nothing more that a serious of stories, some fables, some based in historical occurrences. It's words have no more meaning to my life (aside from people constantly thumping on the thing) than the latest Danielle Steel novel. I am not an atheist. But you want people like me, people who believe in other religions, and people who do not believe in god at all to follow the word of your particular holy book and base all their decisions on what your interpretation is of your holy book. Please explain to us why your religious views should be controlling our lives? And why it is that you feel that your views should supersede our own when it comes to governing our lives? No one is forcing you to have an abortion, why is it your right to stop others? Your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins.

But then again, I'm also all for baby killing :)

Krista - posted on 04/21/2010

Um, no. The SCOTUS would not be the ones to re-criminalize abortion. They're the judicial branch, not the legislative branch.

And once again, I'll ask you this: From 2001 to 2007, the Republicans held the Presidency, the House of Representatives, and the Senate. As well, there were three right-wing judges on SCOTUS (Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas), with two center-right (O'Connor and Kennedy).

From 2001 to 2007, the Republican Party had the legislative strength to completely criminalize any and all forms of abortion. The Democrats did not have the power to stop them.

So why did they not do so? You're so damn determined to paint the Dems (and Obama) as these evil pro-choicers. But your precious Republicans had the perfect chance to put their money where their collective mouth is, and criminalize abortion.

But they didn't do it.

So call the Dems and Obama evil all you want, but your Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites: they spout about family values and the sanctity of life, while they screw around on their wives, sexually harass underage pages, and conveniently never take care of the major issue that keeps people voting for them. The "Party of Family Values", my foot.

Iris - posted on 04/21/2010

On atheism ….. An athiest says there is no god. When a person says there is no God, that person violates a basic philosophical principle. He is a person with a finite understanding making an absolute statement about the nature of infinity. It would be like asking how much total knowledge mankind possesses. Albert Einstein said that mankind grasps less than one percent of total knowledge. If we have only one percent of total knowledge, would it not be possible for God to exist in the other ninety-nine percent?

You know Esther, you said you hate Christians the way they tell people that what they are doing is wrong, yet you really are doing the same to me.

Diane - posted on 04/21/2010

Jenny ….
Obama is not keeping his faith from the public, he talks about it all the time. Go to U tube search Obama religious remarks and there will be enough to keep you busy. You can hear the words coming from his own mouth…..not a second or third source. Did you know he even invited Christians to the White House this past Easter and they prayed. You are right it’s not about my idea of what is moral…it’s about Gods. And we should look to the scriptures for answers. I have looked and I see no evidence that shows that abortion is a godly thing to do.

What I am saying Jenny that if they claim to be Christian then their pro-choice stance is ungodly. If I am wrong……then show me scriptures that show God condones free choice to kill unborns. I want to see scriptures in favor of abortion. Just because He never uses the word does not mean that He is for it. Christ never mentions the word rape or child abuse either does that mean He would condone them?

“We want our country back”……..

We want leaders who care what we the people think. The majority of Americans did not want socialized medicine. Every public poll taken shows what Americans want. The LEFT do not like polls all of a sudden….they were ok when they showed that the majority wanted and liked Obama. Now his popularity is at an all time low. Gee I wonder why? He has not kept half of his campaign promises and he is headed us towards socialism. He believes that the government should be in control of everything. Socialized schools already exist…now socialized medicine. They predict that there will be a shortage of doctors because of what has happened.

You made no sense when you said this sorry. “Diane, there is no such thing as being pro-abortion. That would imply you want to terminate ALL pregnancies. Please skip the inflammatory remarks. They get you nowhere.”

Not all women want to have or get abortions, they are against abortions and do not feel a woman should be able to kill to solve her problem. These people are in the anti-abortion group. They do not believe free choice should include abortion. There are other women/people that think choice should be an option even though they do not condone it. And then there are those that do not care about the life in the womb and think abortion is a great way to solve a problem. They both are in the pro-abortion camp. What was your point?


Esther….
I give because I want to give. I tithe at church and I donate to organizations that help others. We are a giving nation. We should give because it is in our hearts to give, not because the government forces us to give. Where in the Bible did God talk about forced distribution? A Christian gives because they love God because they take what He said seriously. Jesus wants us to believe in Him, not because we are forced but because we have free will and choose to do so. I pay taxes because that is scriptural. I do not like it that much of my taxes go towards abortion, but I pay them anyway. That does not mean however that I should stop questioning the powers that be, and the government. Had people stood up against Hitler, many Christians and Jews would have survived. Should people have just sat back and allowed slavery to continue? Christ did not say that believers were to roll over and play dead.

I am going to try kindly and respectfully to say this Esther. If you are pro-choice you stand in the same line as those who vote to allow the unborn to be slaughtered. Do you think that your moral position is better because you personally don’t believe abortion is right but you think women should have the right to kill anyway?

If we had a vote nationwide…and the people were ask to either vote against abortion or pro-choice….which line would you be in? The line against abortion would save lives and not give women the choice. The pro-choice line……would allow the killing to continue.

If abortion doesn’t kill children Esther, why would someone be opposed to it? If it does kill children, why would someone defend another’s right to do it? Your position is morally baffling. It’s like someone saying, “I’m against child abuse but I defend my neighbors right to beat the hell out of his children.” You turn a blind eye.

You know Esther, you said you hate Christians the way they tell people that what they are doing is wrong, yet you really are doing the same to me. I have no right to tell a nonbeliever about right and wrong because they don’t get it. God will deal with them. But God says I should make righteous judgment concerning a believer, if I do it with love and the right intentions. My intentions are honorable, I hate no one here. I question those who claim to be Christian and believe abortion should be acceptable. In that case I would ask them to make a scriptural case for abortion.

What was the message of the Bible? Why did Christ come? Do you think that God talked about goodness and wonderful feel good things or hell and the wrath to come to those who do not believe. Christ talked about hell more than He ever talked about heaven. Why? He said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life….NO ONE comes to the Father except by ME.” He did not say there were many ways to the Father, but rather that He was the ONLY WAY. He said unless you have Him, accepted Him, that those who don’t will die in their sin. God is much more than just LOVE. You say you are not a Christian…but you presume to know what the Word says. Have you ever read the Bible?
Christ came to save. He came for sinners........not because we are good but because we are bad.

Krista you said that if I let the fact that someone is pro-choice colour my entire impression of them as a human being, then that's my loss. Well I am a Christian and the Bible is my guide book, something I use to form my opinions about the world. I take what God says seriously, especially what He commands me to do. And He commands me to do a few things like to love Him more than anything else, to spread the Gospel, stand up for the Truth and to love my neighbor as myself. I try to do this especially love those who have morals contrary to Gods. I won’t lie sometimes this is hard to do especially when I have seen abortion up front in living color and someone thinks abortion is ok. If you have ever seen one it is gruesome. To think of what goes on however small the fetus is……..literally drives me to sob sometimes. So I pray for people who have beliefs like this, that God changes their heart. I know it can happen, He changed me.

If you would like to see a live abortion I will send you a link if you would like. Then you can see for yourself what you so easily condone.

All you who ask what Republicans have done to stop or end abortion…don’t get one thing straight. No party can end abortion, the SCOTUS would have to do that. Why do you think it is so important who gets nominated to the bench. Do you think Obama would put a pro-life or a pro-abortion candidate up for nomination?

Every time Republicans do something the Democrats when in office overturn it. They did not want our taxes going towards abortion, they wanted parental notification, they wanted the fetal pain bill…….I could list of a handful of things that the Democrats overturned. Democrats do not want parents informed, they do not care if the baby should they make it through an abortion and live, are saved, that after a certain gestational age the fetus get pain medication before their skulls are crushed. They want abortion on demand for any reason a woman can come up with.

You tell me what kind of a person would not want to at least give the unborn pain meds before they are killed alive. WE SEDATE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON DEATH ROW WHEN THEY ARE EXECUTED FOR GOSH SAKES. But oh no….the life in the womb does not deserve respect even at death.

I would like to mention Esther that abortion is rarely done on a woman to save her life. In most circumstances both mother and baby can be saved. Guttmaucher says less than one percent of all abortion are done because of health of the mother. Abortion does not change, it is still killing a living human being.

Of course all you pro-choicers who believe that a woman should have the right to kill her baby do believe that she should have this right until the natural delivery of the baby, right? You certainly would not want to deny her freedom and take her right away to decide.

Health care bill……..there is so much more in this two thousand page thing than anyone knows. Even most Democrats have not totally read it. It is unconstitutional and it will be challenged. It is a tool to control the masses and a chance for the government to run our lives and force us to do things we do not want to do. What it does is rape the rich. They will foot the bill. Soon like Europe I read, the rich will be footing the bill for vacations for those who can’t afford them.


On atheism ….. An athiest says there is no god. When a person says there is no God, that person violates a basic philosophical principle. He is a person with a finite understanding making an absolute statement about the nature of infinity. It would be like asking how much total knowledge mankind possesses. Albert Einstein said that mankind grasps less than one percent of total knowledge. If we have only one percent of total knowledge, would it not be possible for God to exist in the other ninety-nine percent?

It is impossible for a person with a finite mind to make an absolute statement that there is no God because to do so one would need to possess total knowledge. The no God theory can’t be proven.

Rosie - posted on 04/20/2010

i have to have car insurance, everybody has to have car insurance, at least in iowa. if we don't we get fined. sound similar?

Esther - posted on 04/20/2010

I also have to go back to another point you made earlier on Diane about politicians being exempt from the health care bill. They are not.

Q: Does the health care bill specifically exempt members of Congress and their staffs from its provisions?

A: No. This twisted claim is based on misrepresentations of the House and Senate bills, neither of which exempts lawmakers.



We’ve received many questions about claims that House and Senate members would be exempt from the health care legislation taking shape in Congress. But neither the House nor the Senate bill exempts Congress from its provisions.

Members of Congress are subject to the legislation’s mandate to have insurance, and the plans available to them must meet the same minimum benefit standards that other insurance plans will have to meet. "All plans would have to follow those requirements by 2019," Aaron Albright, press secretary for the House Committee on Education and Labor, told FactCheck.org. "People actually believe we wrote in the bill that Congress exempts itself from these requirements. That falsehood has been going around since the very beginning."

Jenny - posted on 04/20/2010

The difference between car insurance being elective and health care is you can choose to not drive a car. You will never drive a car unplanned and go, oh no I don't have insurance. However, if you are hit by a car you are going to require medical attention. If you have a heart attack, if you have kidney stones, if you break a limb, if you have an anuerysm burst (it happened to my mom one sunday night at age 43, lived in intensive care for 3 months). You can choose to have insurance on goods (house, car etc.), you do not get a choice when you will need medical help. Since the right is so gungho on personal responsibilty, you really can't expect everyone else to foot your bill when you need the services right?

Esther - posted on 04/20/2010

I'd like to ask - what's worse - not liking abortions but genuinely being of the opinion that the woman's life and her right to have choice outweigh the rights of an embryo or being pro-life but doing nothing to actually outlaw abortion because of opportunistic reasons like reelection chances, securing the base, having a wedge issue to get out the vote etc.

Krista - posted on 04/20/2010

Jenny's exactly right. The laws of the land are not required to follow the bibilical sense of right and wrong. If they were, then that's what's called a theocracy. And sometimes society's rules of right and wrong do not agree with your religion's sense of right and wrong. Being a drunkard is also a mortal sin, but I don't see a large Christian temperance movement picketing liquor stores or breweries, strangely enough.



Obviously abortion is a major hot-button issue for you. And I have no issue with you being pro-life. That's totally your prerogative.



But a lot of people are pro-choice. And if you're going to let the fact that someone is pro-choice colour your entire impression of them as a human being, then that's your loss, really. With regards to President Obama, it seems as though you've decided that since he's pro-choice, he's a bad, evil man, and hence, every other thing he does is bad and evil by default. Which isn't necessarily so.



And, as I and others have mentioned, President Obama may be pro-choice, but what have your pro-life politicians done for you lately? They've chipped away at things here and there, but when they controlled all three branches, why did they not repeal Roe altogether? It's not because of the justices -- justices don't legislate. I do think that Esther's right: Republicans will never repeal Roe, because it's too handy for them to use it as a way to get people like you all riled up. They're playing you like a bunch of violins. Heck, look at some of the immoral stuff THEY'VE been doing lately...do you really think they give a sweet damn about abortion? Most Republicans are about as Christian as my left sock.



Now, with regards to the insurance thing:



Universal healthcare really isn't all that different from having a fire department. Your tax money goes to cover you AND everybody else. And some people may wind up needing it more than you do, either due to bad luck or bad choices.



And the funny thing is this: We're all a heck of a lot more likely to need healthcare than we are to need the fire department. So the odds of you getting something back for your tax dollars spent on healthcare, are pretty high. The odds of you getting something back for your tax dollars spent on fire services? Pretty low.



So why is universal healthcare oh-so-socialist and wrong, but nobody bats an eye about their taxes being used for fire services?



It's just funny, that's all. With private insurance, you're still paying for other people's services. Some policyholders use a lot more in benefits than they pay in premiums. So your hard-earned money is going towards their healthcare. So if you want to stand on principle and never have a situation where you're paying for something for someone else, then you're pretty much going to have to become a hermit in the woods somewhere.

Esther - posted on 04/20/2010

Quoting Diane:

Esther where does it say in our Constitution that people should be forced to buy something they do not want? Where does it say that you by law have to pay for others services? Universal healthcare.......should we also by law have to provide car insurance? Home owners insurance? How about dental insurance? How about housing?

Cause hey if you want to help me......I will give you my address and you can send me a check if you are so concerned with my welfare. And I have a few friends who lost jobs who need help..........would you be intersted?



Just curious are you pro-abortion, are you a Christian?

Jenny - posted on 04/20/2010

Diane, there is no such thing as being pro-abortion. That would imply you want to terminate ALL pregnancies. Please skip the inflammatory remarks. They get you nowhere.

Jenny - posted on 04/20/2010

Diane, not sure if it's been mentioned yet as I have just skimmed this thread but there are millions of Christians who support the right to choice. Diane Sapiro's understanding of Christianity does not define it for every American Christian.

I am not an American but if I was I would happily inform you that you could keep your religion out of my uterus and out of my government. See, the government and policy doesn't belong to Christians, it doesn't belong to any religion and it certainly doesn't belong to conservatives. That is why cries of "We want our country back" don't make any sense. It is simply not yours to claim. As we tell our children, you have to learn to share.

And on the the silly athiest remark you made, I gaurantee you we exist.

Diane - posted on 04/20/2010

Esther where does it say in our Constitution that people should be forced to buy something they do not want? Where does it say that you by law have to pay for others services? Universal healthcare.......should we also by law have to provide car insurance? Home owners insurance? How about dental insurance? How about housing?
Cause hey if you want to help me......I will give you my address and you can send me a check if you are so concerned with my welfare. And I have a few friends who lost jobs who need help..........would you be intersted?

Just curious are you pro-abortion, are you a Christian?

Diane - posted on 04/20/2010

As a Christian I DO believe there is a battle between "good" and "evil" taking place in the world and many Christians believe 'politicians" are at the heart of it (Revelations). However, if you are going to label a politician "dangerous" or "evil" because of their political stance, which politician is NOT evil? Every president and politician in word or deed has done SOMETHING out of alignment with God's desires. But what with all the personal attacks on Obama?

Obama didn't make the laws. Why don't the tea party people, the right-wing militia and the Republicans fight for regulations or to change the legislature, instead of falsifying information about Obama and trying to get people upset with him personally? Just because the left treated Bush unfairly, doesn't make it correct for the right to do it? Like I said in my first post, Obama's policies have enough "meat" to be debated, without the discussion getting personal.

With regards to Obama's gaff about his "Muslim faith". I would like to see the entire interview. I would like to know what was being discussed and in what context. I mean he was raised a Muslim. He could have been referring to questions or a conversation related to his Muslim faith. I personally have been Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist and Mennonite. When I discuss my journey with Christ, I get tongue tied and twisted up sometimes. I still think I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Theresa…………
I do not necessarily believe all politicians are evil….but I do believe power can corrupt and we see daily politicians on both sides of the fence in scandals of all kinds. They think that rules and laws do not apply to them. One thing about this health care law is that it does not apply to politicians, Obama will not be affected by what he wants us to swallow. That is not fair, that is simply not right.
Like you said nobody is perfect. But that does not mean that we should not strive to be. We are all works in progress….if something gets out of whack…….we should work to fix it. I question Obama because he is so radical, because he used his faith in the campaign and he still does religious things to back his positions up. I gave you several videos that show this is true. He makes religious comments and has even used principles in the Bible to back up his positions. As a Christian I have the right to question someone on theology. And I do not believe he actually knows what he is talking about when it comes to scriptures because he says things contrary to what God says in the Word.
Example………..Like Oprah Obama does not think Christ is the only way, but there might also be other ways to Heaven. This is blasphemous and wrong theology. There is only ONE WAY, Jesus told us that. How many different ways could we interpret Christs statement? It’s a piece of cake, easy enough for a child to understand. I do not need to tell you this, because you know scripture. But you know what I mean.
If you overheard someone say that Jesus sinned, what would you say to the person? Would you defend the scriptures and point out the flaw or would you ignore it? What would ignoring it accomplish? It might lead someone that heard the error and who does not know scripture down the wrong road. We must always stand up for the truth, but do it in love.
If I was lucky enough to talk to Obama I would first off tell him that I was praying for him. But I also with love would tell him that his positions were ungodly and why. I would open the Bible and show him where God says he is in error. It is not about what I think, rather what God says is right. I would also say that he should please God before man and that he should be concerned about how God will view what he says and does. I guess I would share the Gospel with him. I also would ask him to make a case for abortion and use the scriptures to do it.

Obama does have something to do with laws even though his responsibility is not to make them. He does have veto power over all bills. He is the most powerful person on earth. He makes treaties with other nations, he appoints Ambassadors, appoints SCOTUS and Federal judges, appoints cabinet positions,….he can give pardons etc.
Could you give me a few examples of how Tea Party and the Republican Party has lied about Obama?
What bothers me is that Obama has a plan and answer for everything…but when asked by Rick Warren in that Saddleback interview, he said this. “Well, I think that whether you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade.”
It was obvious that he did not want to lose votes so he carefully orchestrated the pay grade comment for the interview. And Warren, the fluff that he is, let him out of it. In Illinois he did not even vote to protect a child should they make it through an abortion. Yes abortion is above his pay grade, he just does not want to have to talk about it. Everything has become an income or class issue for him because he views the world through economics. It’s the way to take control of the masses and redistribute the wealth. He took over the auto industry, banking….etc.
He does not want abortion banned, in fact when he first became President he passed the law that said our tax money now goes to provide abortion worldwide, make it a global right for women to kill.
He co-sponsored the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) This legislation would create a new "fundamental right," a single federal right to abortion through all nine months of pregnancy. His first act as president he said would be to pass this. It would allow the government to take control of children because no abortion provider would be required to have a permission slip. They only need one to go to on field trips and get tattoos, God forbid that they would need one to kill.




This all is NOT above his pay grade. LOL So for Obama abortion is a safety net. I remember when he gave a speech to PP and said that they would work together for universal healthcare that this system……… “ would spare a teenage girl "a lifetime of struggle." He said he imagined an America where he could contently "tuck in every night" his two little girls, assured they had been sanctified with the right of "choice" Yes Barack…the right to kill, that always should be an option. That is why I question everything he does.
I read an article the other day that said in the end ignorance will kill us. I believe it. Most people do not care, they do not know what socialism is, they wanted change, and any change was good enough. It will be no wonder that we will go down, and people will wake up to late.

Esther - posted on 04/20/2010

Diane - name me the last Republican president who outlawed abortion ...... hmmmm ... hasn't happened has it? So are they all baby killers too? What good does it do to only pay lip service to being opposed to "infanticide"? Obama is not the least bit radical and that's just a dumb talking point. I don't know why he evokes such an over the top hysterical response in certain people (although I could speculate) but his policies are no more "radical" than those of any of his predecessors. As a matter of fact, I of course think that Bush with his unfettered executive powers, torture, suspension of habeus corpus, unprovoked war etc. was FAR more radical in his policies, but that's just me. Nixon was probably more liberal than Obama on various issues (like government spending). I can respect your views on abortion. Like Obama, I would love to see the day that no woman chose to have one. But I am also firmly pro-choice. I can really see how that would be a make or break issue for you, but to take that issue and paint Obama with a "left wing radical" brush based on that is just hysterical. And FYI, I don't think abortion is EVER going to be outlawed because the majority of Americans do support the woman's right to choose, and more importantly because the GOP will never ever give up this wedge issue which can rile up the people in their base (like you) and get them all to come out and vote for them. And then they can once again pay lip service to the issue forever and ever and ever.

Diane - posted on 04/20/2010

Carol..........
Well Obama unfortunately does not know me personally, but I have two friends who are Democrats that live in Chicago that do know him personally. In fact one was up for a position in his administration. I do have friends who are Democrats, in fact my dad for most of his life was a Democrat. I do not hate Obama as I said but his views on many issues very much concern me…especially the abortion one. He claims he is a Christian but for the life of me….where in the scriptures does God condone killing, murdering unborn children. Obama is a left wing radical politician who in my opinion has an agenda like no other president that we have ever had.
I would ask you this…….what have I said that was unbiblical? Give me examples and then scriptures to back up what you are accusing me of saying. Show me where I am in error. If you are pro-abortion and think I am wrong…then make a case for abortion. I work in this area…and I work with people who say they are atheists (of course I do not think anyone can be an atheist but that’s another debate) and they know that abortion kills based on what medical science has to say about the life in the womb.
Let me also ask you this. If Obama felt that child marriage/sex was ok and wanted to change the age of accountability to eleven/twelve would you think this was wrong or right? In early biblical times they got married that early. Do we just accept everything a society does as right? Abortion was once considered murder and our laws reflected that. But since 1973 all of a sudden the act of murder was considered ok. Something so wrong…….society accepted. But did God?
For me moral character matters. And if it did to more people in our country abortion would not be legal and Obama would never have gotten to the oval office. The friends and associates he kept company with were very shady. During the campaign the Republican Party for the most part rolled over and played dead and the media was on his side so they downplayed everything negative.
Sorry but I can’t respect anyone that believes in killing life in the womb, especially if they claim to be Christian. Why don’t you make the case for abortion and use the scriptures to do it. Convince me that God stands outside abortion mills and is happy about what’s going on. Convince me that killing something that is alive without permission is ok. You either stand up for God or you do not. If Obama was not religious and he tells us that he is……then this would be another story….but he should know better and as a fellow Christian I have every right to call him on what he says is scriptural. He obviously does not read the same Bible as I do.
It breaks my heart that there are people whose hearts are so hardened that they can’t see that abortion is a violent act against a living human child. It disturbs me that our schools do not teach that abortion kills, that books and literature, the media use…. user friendly terms like, medical procedure, termination instead of kill. Who are they trying to fool? Most people do not know about fetal development. I do not respect anyone who would think that killing in this way should be allowed. That does not however mean I hate them.
I am not always right…..but I believe I am about abortion. I think abortion is evil and it says a lot about the heart of a person that would condone it, and a nation that would allow it.

Theresa - posted on 04/20/2010

Wow Esther, these were great! Thanks!



And I agree with you about the healthcare bill. I was one of those "disgruntled" people who wasn't in favor of the bill...I wanted a public option. :)

Esther - posted on 04/19/2010

As Stephen Colbert famously said - reality has a well-known liberal bias, so "facts" are probably not going to make any difference here, but just in case, maybe you want to do a little more reading of FACTcheck.org Diane and a little less listening to Glenn Beck & friends:



http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/...

http://factcheck.org/2009/12/truth-on-th...

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/04/more-ma...

http://factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-six-...

http://factcheck.org/2010/01/clueless-co...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/...



As you can see a lot of this bogus has been publicly debunked since 2008. Time to get with the program. I'd also like to point out that included in the percentage of Americans who indicated they were against the health care bill were a lot of people who thought the bill didn't go far enough, who wanted a single payer system, or at the very least a public option. There were people who wanted health-care completely de-commercialized and completely run by the government. A lot of people were lumped together who had diametrically opposed views (this is a government take-over vs why isn't the government taking over), except that they both didn't like the health care bill (or what they thought they knew about it) in it's current form.