Differing methods among close friends...

Kimbeley - posted on 05/27/2010

More my partners friend than my friend

Chatty - posted on 05/27/2010

....some friend!

Kimbeley - posted on 05/27/2010

I have a friend who is pro-smacking and winds me up about it all the time... he'll actually go out of his way to make comments about "I gave them a quick whack on the bum and they were right" just to get a reaction out of me. It's so frustrating, I've learnt now just to bite my tongue when he's around.

Ashley=) - posted on 05/20/2010

The thing about friends and family members is you respect no matter what.Different parenting is a way of life for many of us.I dont find it a problem as i know how loved and cared for the children are.What the choose to do to raise there young is there business and i would never find myself wanting to question them or get into a discussion with them.As i always say the day i am the one raising THERE children then i can have a say lol.:-)
I respect them and in turn i receive the same,the dont question me on why i dont spank or the dont try to displine my children or tell me how to.

Rebecca - posted on 05/19/2010

A friend of mine has spanked her daughter since she was 8 months old. It ticks me off. She is now 2.5yrs old and has the WORST attitude i have ever seen and she's had it since she was about 1! I tried babysitting her and i couldn't do it anymore. She just didn't listen at all and wouldn't stay in time out. She was WAY too used to being spanked and it's not something i do in my household, on ANY child! I'm actually trying to pick up on some methods my neighbor uses. She is the most calm mother i have EVER seen. And she does childcare! She has yet to lose her mind lol. I'm not too sure how she does it because she even has depression and in my mind that would make my temper a bit more ready to fly. I have had a slight case of depression off and on and i can say i was more angry when i was depressed. I do have to say though, i spanked my son once when he was about 18 months and it broke my heart. I never did it again! I don't even like thinking about it. Worst moment of my life for sure. Yes it was used as last resort but my God it still killed me to see my son mad at me and cry. I am a strong believer that i will end the spanking generation with my kids for our family. My daughter is only 10 months old and i don't have any plans on spanking her at all. I know what works and i know each technique takes time to learn for the child.

Chatty - posted on 05/19/2010

Rebecca, I think you touched on something VERY important. Threatening to spank a child is sooo wrong, especially if you're not going to follow thru....

I commend you for rising above ur situation and doing right by your children!

Rebecca - posted on 05/19/2010

I have a few friends who either smack their kids or threaten to. The two who smack their kids do so rarely. They both in very poor circumstances (the whole family sleeps in one room - I live in a poor country) and therefore time outs are not viable at all. I cut them some slack, because they clearly are loving to their children, and living in those quarters -- who am I to judge? they also can't send their children out into the street because the neighbourhood is dangerous.

The one who threatens has a totally undisciplined child and he is undisciplined because she makes lots of threats that she never follows thru on. I haven't discussed parenting with her much, but her boy does play here when she isn't here, and I get him to behave with consequences of bad behaviour stated upfront.

My friends all know that I am totally opposed to smacking, but I do not argue with them or tell them how to raise their kids unless they ask for advice on something specific. (They know that they are not allowed to smack in my house tho.) I would intervene in an abusive situation. (Even tho I don't agree with it, I don't think and quick sharp smack constitutes abuse. I wish there were books out there that could help families living in confined spaces or other less that ideal social situations ... but all the parenting books i have come across really assume a middle class way of life.... sure many of the techniques are applicable anyway, but lacking privacy and living in a confined way is stressful for humans, and i think a lot of parents in such circumstances could do with advice that takes that into account.)

Chatty - posted on 05/19/2010

Dawna, I never had any respect for my father either, which is what caused me to continually misbehave even as an older teenager......I broke curfew, smoked, experimented with drugs (although they didn't know about that) etc and looking back I KNOW it's because I had zero RESPECT for my father! (The other already know Dawna but just to fill you in.....my father spanked me as a child but as I got older they turned into ' beatings ' until I was 17 and threatened to call the police.)



RESPECT is HUGE!

Jess - posted on 05/19/2010

Respect is a two street and like with any relationship its earnt not deserved.



I have to earn my daughters respect the same way she has to earn mine *to a certain extent.... like when she is teen*



I can't stand there screaming at her to be respectful when im being the most disrespectful person in the room.... it just doesn't work that way. My parents learnt that the hard way with me.

Dawna - posted on 05/18/2010

Jess- I can relate to the "breeder" type. That is actually the way most of my family, especially the men, think. They argue that their children need to fear and respect them and are offended when their children disobey, instead of seeing it as normal childhood behaviour. As a child raised by these men, I can tell you what I never had for them when they hit us, yelled or bullied: RESPECT. And I refuse to treat my child as a second-class person just beause I'm her parent. I want her to respect me, which means I treat her with respect. I wish more parents knew what respect really means.

Jaime - posted on 05/18/2010

You shut your mouth when you're talkin' to me! LOL...my favourite line from 'Wedding Crashers'.

Chatty - posted on 05/18/2010

NO! You get outta mine! * sticks her tongue out *

Jaime - posted on 05/18/2010

Dana, you did it again...you said what I wanted to say...get out of my head damnit! LOL

Jaime - posted on 05/18/2010

Dawna, I'm so glad you joined our group and didn't give up on CoM. You will be an asset to this community for sure! I read your post and I can understand your frustration with your family, but the way you handle it shows just how much more confident you are and how much more willing you are to strive for better, more positive ways to combat aggression, violence and misbehaviour. Thanks so much for you post.

Chatty - posted on 05/18/2010

P.S. Please feel free to read through some of the older posts when you get time.....we'd love to get ur opinion and it might help you get to know some of us a lil' better!!

Chatty - posted on 05/18/2010

Yes, we're pretty proud of this community! Nikki S. started it a couple months ago and it's grown quickly.....I LOVE IT! We're lucky to have you and I can assure you that you won't find much religion in this group.....none that I've found judgemental anyhow!



What's ur story? Where are you from? What do you do or used to do before you were a mommy? Introduce yourself please! LOL! I'm in BC, Canada and Roxanne ( 20 months ) is the love of my life....besides Chad of course! I'm sure the other ladies here will agree with me when I say we can't wait to get to know you! Glad you didn't bail!

Dawna - posted on 05/18/2010

Dana, I really should have found this group earlier. I was on the verge of bailing on CoM, mainly due to the majority of postings from people who are very religious (at least, when giving advice online) and judgmental. I don't mind if a religious person wants to share tips with me, but I am soo tired of people telling me I'm a bad parent because I refuse to be negative and I won't convert and do things their way.



It's nice to know there are other parents dedicated to being POSITIVE role models for their kids.

Jaime - posted on 05/18/2010

No worries Dawna, I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I haven't had a chance to read through your post yet, as I have a house full of kids at the moment but feel free to vent to us anytime!

Chatty - posted on 05/18/2010

WOW! Dawna, where did you come from? Without sounding cheezy, you're a breath of fresh air! Good for you, for sticking to ur beliefs despite the lack of support! You're daughter is extremely lucky to have you on her side!

Jess - posted on 05/18/2010

I think its funny that somethings we naturally let go off..... like babies sleeping on their belly's, wicker baskets on the back seat of the car, but spanking.... Nope thats still around.



What I have found, is we non smackers watch our children more closely. We correct bad behaviour straight away and make a bigger effort to keep our kids in line. Smacking parents pay less attention, let more things go and when their kid has finally lost the plot of boundaries they come in and hit them to bring them back.... Pitty they didn't take the time 30 minutes ago to remind their child of the rules !



Ava doesn't have a routine, she is far too easy going for a routine. She tags along with us everywhere we go, she will sleep anywhere, through anything. We don't treat her like a little baby, we treat her like "one of us". We are like the 3 amego's *sp?* Where as my brother and his wife are clear breeders. Parents on one level, baby on another. Its all about respect and treating your children how you want to be treated.

Dawna - posted on 05/18/2010

Wow, I think maybe I needed to vent a little. :) Sorry about the long post, but the OP did sort of ask for it. ;)

Dawna - posted on 05/18/2010

I am from a small, mostly-christian town full of people who believe in spanking, and most of them are related to me. I disagree with the practice on many, many grounds, not the least of which is personal experience and observation from my own childhood.

However, I have "spanked" my daughter a few times, and I'm not proud of that. Those times were during times of great stress, exhaustion and depression, which made me fall back on learned parenting behavior, instead of using what I believe to be good parenting behavior. Of course, the spanking didn't really work, and it made my daughter more aggressive.

My personal belief, based on lots of observation, is that spanking is for lazy parents. I know, some parents have a whole system, and spanking is last resort, and they swear it is all that works, but most of those I see spanking do it whenever their personal mood warrants it and as a release of their own frustrations, not as a consistent form of discipline. Many of these parents do not have set schedules (nor do I, to be truthful), no firm rules, and no easily-discernible boundaries their children can rely on. They use their own emotions to guide their discipline choices, and they don't care if they are fair or not. Most will argue that life is not fair, so their kids should get used to it. To me, I see their defense of spanking as a complete unwillingness to change their lives or go out of their way to do something that may be a bit harder, but would ultimately be a more positive parenting style.

Since I am related to most of the people I am talking about, dissolving the relationship and moving on is difficult. There are some I avoid contact with outside of family functions. There are some I know I will have to have a long talk with when my daughter is old enough for them to start trying to spank her themselves. So far, since she is only 2 and actually much better behaved than most of their children, that topic has not yet come up. Some know I don't believe in spanking and have laughed at me and said, "Yeah, not yet, but wait." I don't allow my daughter to run rampant at family functions, my husband and I watch her and immediately step in when she misbehaves enough to need correction. Most of my family members just let their kids run around and do as they please, expecting all adults to correct their children for them, and assuming they have the right to correct all other children. That is fine for them, since they all believe spanking is OK, but I do not want them disciplining my child.

I generally don't voice my opinions or try to convince them to change because it would be a religious fight as well as a parenting fight. No one likes to be told they are doing the parenting thing wrong, and when they can say, "the Bible says...", there is no way to win. So, I keep quiet, but I generally dislike watching that kind of discipline and will sometimes leave early because of it. I have one uncle who has a daughter my daughter's age, and I would love for them to be best friends, but I dread the day they want her to sleep over at their house. That uncle is a perfectionist who uses yelling, spanking and bullying to force his kids to do things his way, and only his way. He never acts like that to adults outside of his nuclear family, so he is deceiving, because everyone thinks he's this nice, quiet guy. But, he has no problems using the advantage of his size to embarrass and bully his children. He's not "abusive" in a way that I could turn him in to authorities, or I would in a heartbeat. But, he's so negative and constantly on their cases, that the poor kids never get to think for themselves. I really hope he changes his tune before I have to confront him about why my daughter can't stay at his house. His wife is younger than me, and does seem to be making him lighten up a bit, so maybe there's hope.

I should point out that most of these family members are not bad people who are generally violent and mean. They are very kind people who are also very loving and helpful. However, they deeply believe that misbehaving children should be spanked, that parents shouldn't read books to be good parents, and that their way is the only right way. They simply don't (refuse to) think about the way they raise their children, and since I am constantly rethinking what I do and how to better handle situations, we often disagree. I sincerely think that most parents who spank just do it because they were spanked and so on back to the caveman days, and they've never cared to think about the fact that better solutions may exist. Unfortunately, most of them also will become very defensive and refuse to listen if outsiders try to discuss more positive options with them.

Amie - posted on 05/17/2010

LOL! I have one hellion, one medium tempered child, one who's very easy going and a pre-teen who I'd like to ship off to boot camp some days. LOL! We run the gauntlet but without our schedule and rules I don't want to imagine what they'd be like.

Even our constant repeating sinks in. =) I think I've mentioned before that our middle daughter (hellion) now says her please, thank you, no thank you's without prompting? =D She's been doing that for a few weeks now. It's great! She'll be 3 on Thursday but she's finally doing it on her own. LOL!

Oh and negativity! HOLY CRAP! My SIL (who has no children I might add or any desire to have any of her own) TOLD Caitlin she couldn't count to 10. /:) We were over at my in laws a couple weeks ago and we were trying to get her to count for them. Naturally she refused with an audience watching her. My SIL pipes up, "Oh you can't do that anyway can you?" I said "Well she CAN, she just doesn't want to with everyone staring at her. It's more than a little unnerving having adults staring at you." I then left with the kids. I don't know what my husband said after I left but she hasn't said a word about it since. Even after hearing her count to 10. Ugh... idiot.

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

@Amie....OMG! We're sooo alike! LOL! I'm pretty strict with schedule etc and everyone bugs me about it YET they ALL compliment me on how wonderful and well behaved Roxanne is, especially for a 20 month old.....YES, she naturally easy going and just a great kid BUT there IS a method to my madness! Muahhaha! She didn't get like that all by herself!

P.S. She IS freakishly well behaved....sometimes I ask myself what I did to deserve such a wonderul kid! ANYWHO, I'm sure most moms will say the same thing....I wish you all could meet her!

Amie - posted on 05/17/2010

I don't know of anyone that spanks now. I used to, I'm not friends with them anymore. My family knows where I stand and know not to step out of line.

The ex friends are because their kids were violent with mine. I refuse to have ill behaved children around mine when I can avoid it. I do not need them picking up that bad behavior. Especially at a young age when it is harder to teach them why it is wrong. I hate using guilt to teach and to teach them not to hit, it's pretty much the only way when they're small too.

Example:
The one and only time my husband spanked our son (long story, short version, it didn't work our boy was up to the same thing the very next day! When I called him inside and talked to him, he got it. Hasn't done it since) he threw a tantrum not long after and hit my MIL. She sat there and fake cried saying how much it hurt gramma and her feelings. I felt like kicking her. You can not and should not guilt a child to get them to behave. It is as bad as smacking a child in my eyes. Our son was so upset. It wasn't the first time she had done it either. She had tried it with our daughter when she was around 6 and she got an earful then! It's just another form of bullying, it's just emotional instead of physical. Ugh.

Anyway, my friends that don't spank. They all vary too. Some are very free and believe in no boundaries. Thankfully they're learning as they go that this is NOT how a child learns. =S Others are like me where a strict schedule is adhered to with some wiggle room in areas. There are some that fall in between. We mostly get along though. Some bug me about being so strict with my kids, especially our oldest. Just because she's turning 10 does not mean she's ready to take off on her own. /:) Not happening.

My family especially understand to not push the boundaries. I am and always be there mom. You do not have to like how I am choosing to raise my children but you do have to respect my wishes. If not, I will not bring them over. It is that simple for me. I am very close to my family, even my extended, but my children will always come first.

My in-laws. Well my MIL's brain dead moments not withstanding, know the same thing. They need the odd reminder but they have never raised their hands to my children and have never even tried too. Their overstepping is more along the lines of getting annoying and pushy. Especially with screwing around with the kids schedule. I do NOT care that you planned brunch for us at 10, that is when Allie goes down for her nap. Deal with it.

Ok rant over... mostly. I get really irritated by a lot of things obviously. LOL

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

Please excuse my above rant...LOL!



Jess, I'm really sorry about ur niece also.....and more importantly, about Ava! I don't know what I would do if one of my nieces ever hit Roxanne?

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

I don't believe that pro smacking parents don't " GET " our points.....they just don't WANT to change, IMO! That's what I find most disturbing! I totally admire and commend the moms that have joined this community to change their ways because I can't imagine it would be easy even IF they know that it's wrong and they don't want to do it! That urge will be there for them and that can't be easy to overcome; hell, it can't even be easy to THINK about changing ur ways which is why I think that a lot of pro smacking parents figure it they band together they won't have to BUT eventually they WILL become a minority!



We WILL take over the world! Muahahaha! * winks *

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2010

Absolutely Jess! It's just sad that your brother and his wife don't see it that way. All you can do is prevent it as much as possible on your end which might result in you not having contact with them if the behaviour continues. It's not a happy outcome or solution, but Ava doesn't deserve to be treated like that and your brother needs to give his head a shake! I feel bad for their baby too because she's just little herself and really doesn't know any better than what she's seeing from her parents. And smacking a baby is just so sad.

Jess - posted on 05/17/2010

My brother and his wife smack their almost 1 year old. It makes me soo mad. She is my niece and I feel the need to protect her. When they hit her I remind them of how young she is, I remind them of the alternatives they could use. And then when my niece hits my daughter I get really angry at my brother because its his fault his daughter hits. He taught her that its OK to hit.



It can get heated, but I refuse to let it get to that level with our children present. When my niece pushed my daughters face into the floor about 4 times I gave a time line of poor parenting choices, My parents smacked me brother *and me*, My brother smacks his daughter, and his daughter smacks her younger cousin.... My mother feels very guilty when I put it that way. My daughter came home with a fat lip ! Proof enough to me that smacking teaches violence.

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

Kelly, that's gotta be tough...sometimes it better to just avoid when you value a friendship! Question? Are the sister's close? Does sister one have any issues with the way sister two disciplines her children?

Kelly - posted on 05/17/2010

I don't know anyone else in real life who doesn't spank their kids, so I take a lot of heat for not spanking mine. The toll it takes on our friendship depends mostly on the rest of the discipline leading up to the spanking.
For example, my 2 best friends--they are sisters, and they both spank, but one I barely notice and the other, I get a bit frustrated with.
Sister One disciplines basically just like I do up to the point of the spanking--right down to taking her son to a private place to do it. He gets one warning that they will be visiting the ladies room, if he does it again, they go but he usually just gets a stern talk. If they return and he gets out of hand again, she takes him back, and smacks him. I do the same thing, but I never get past the stern talk and I make him stand there until he can smile. (I know this is silly, but if I can make him have a fake smile in the bathroom, it is usually a real smile by the time we reach the table again and he is actually EAGER to please me, so he's like overly nice. I don't know why that works, but it always works in restaurants.) She and I have had some interesting debates on the subject, we always end up disagreeing, but we have never gotten heated, I've never felt like she was trying to change my mind (just explaining her view) and we've always enjoyed the conversations.
Sister Two, is also one of my very best friends, and I love her very much, but I don't like to be around her with her kids or when mine might be cranky. She will tell the kids to do something, or warn them about a bad behavior and they don't do it or stop misbehaving, but she doesn't say anything for 5-10 more minutes, she just goes on with her life oblivious to the disruption. Then she give them countless warnings, but so far spaced out that they have forgotten. Then out of the blue she just grabs the "reminder" from her purse and pops them a good one on the leg or arm--right there in front of everyone! Which of course makes them scream (the reminder is a little leather bookmark type thing--I'll see if I can find the link). When my kid misbehaves, on the very first time he does anything even remotely out of line, she pulls out the reminder and asks if I need to borrow it. She has offered to buy me one on several occasions, even though I've told her I don't agree with that method. We are still wonderful friends, but I avoid that subject and avoiding her when she has the kids with her has put a bit of a strain on the relationship.

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2010

No worries Dana, I completely understand your view and I am also one to play devil's advocate a lot...I've said before that a good debater can argue both sides of a debate and you're doing exactly that which I have a lot of respect for.

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

I totally agree and I promise I wasn't suggesting that I thought under any circumstances spanking was ok, because it's not! It never will be.....I was just TRYING to see the other side but I can't! I hope one day it is illegal to spank at any age!

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2010

Also, I just want to add that I babysit two three-year-olds...one that is spanked and yelled at and another that is not spanked and not yelled at. The boy that is spanked is very aggressive and hyper (which could just be genetic) and the one that is not spanked is very calm and laid-back. I use my discipline techniques on both boys, but I adjust it to the level of attention that is needed to each situation and it seems to be working on both boys...so I truly believe that it's possible for kids of any type to respond well to discipline rather than corporal punishment.

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2010

I do understand what leads parents to spank...frustration, wits-end, last resort, "get the point across"...and none of these reasons are justifiable for the action of physically punishing a child. At least not to me. I know that you and I are on the same page Dana, and I respect your comment but I disagree that we have to consider that spanking is sometimes necessary for some kids. I've seen a lot of people comment to the effect of "I was spanked and I turned out fine and I was glad that my parents kept me in line...blah, blah, blah" basically applauding the efforts of their parents to instill the fear of punishment so deeply into their children that they didn't learn discipline, they learned to fear the spanking and thus adjusted their behaviour when it was necessary. These parents that spank because they were spanked are a perfect example of kids that didn't learn discipline...they don't have a grasp on the concept of control and communication, so they resort to what they know "works"...but I just don't think that makes it okay. I'm not saying 'right vs. wrong'...just not okay. Spanking is illegal before the age of 2 and after age 12 in Canada (although I wish it was just illegal across the board) but in that age range, kids are discovering new surroundings (often being put into daycare and later into school and then eventually they hit junior high just as the spankings stop! With the increasing rates of bullying at school, low self-esteem, depression...it has to come from somewhere. I'm not suggesting that all kids that are spanked will face any of these set-backs, but the stats do show the likelihood is very high. I doubt that our kids will get to school and feel as overwhelmed if we've worked diligently at making certain they know they can come to us to help solve any problems that arise...and later learn how to cope and deal on their own. I just feel that positive strategies that encourage communication and self-discipline are much more to the benefit of our children.

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

OMG! It sounds like I'm turnin to the dark side! LOL!

Chatty - posted on 05/17/2010

My brother and SIL believe in spanking.....thankfully, my nieces are both very well behaved! LOL! I've only ever seen her spank them once and I've NEVER seen my brother do it so I can't actually be sure if he's ever done it! I do know that my SIL uses every method possible before she spanks them but if the offense in question is serious enough and they've had repeated warnings that they're about to receive a spanking and they still do something, she spanks them! At least that's how she describes it to me?!..... we try not to talk about it because my family knows how I feel and they respect my decision NOT to spank!

In response to ur last question JL....I definitely don't think ur attitude needs to change, and like you, I wish A LOT of people would just CONSIDER that there are better alternatives to her PUNISHMENT methods! BUT, in her defense....if you don't need to change then why should she? Is there even a part of you that even kinda sorta understands why some people spank? I'm not judging or disagreeing with you cuz you know we're on the same page but MAYBE WE need to consider that it MIGHT be an effective method for SOME children IF done properly?? I dunno, just saying....

Meghan - posted on 05/17/2010

I can't think of one friend that doesn't spank their children. I have have a friend that hot sauces her youngest (just turned 2)Some use it right away while other's use it as a last resort. I find that it is really hard to hang out with them because their children are very busy, unstructured and some of them are pretty agressive towards J. I don't know if that is directly because of the spanking or if it is also because these parents are a little more "free spirited" as far as a schedule goes.
For the most part they all are very respectful of my discipline methods and one of them has even come to me many times for advise. I think it may put a strain on the friendship because seeing a child being spanked does upset me and lately I have kinda stayed close to home rather than go out with them. But when I am in someone elses home I don't feel that I can really say anything. That's their home and however much I disagree with someone I don't want to disrespect them. If there was abuse going on that would be a different story though.