Discipline problem or typical 2 year old? Suggestions?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/08/2011

I know that my son also listens for the 1...2...3 approach. At one point it did become ineffective, and I had to start giving time outs on the 3 again. I have only had to do that a couple of times...and now we are back to it working. He is almost 5 though. I suppose that if you tell him "on the count of 3 if you don't do (fill in blank) then I will (fill in blank with time out, or toy taken away...whatever the "punishment" is) you just really need to stick to your guns. Commit to whatever it is you said you will do on the first round of 1....2....3's. If you do not, that is when they find it to be a joke. I hope i explained what I mean well enough.

Jaime - posted on 03/25/2011

lol...no worries :)

Jenni - posted on 03/25/2011

Oh well. It was fun anyways. Even if we did get in a whole debate around me being obscure. hahah ;)

Jaime - posted on 03/24/2011

I think we're on the same page Jennifer...I think I was focused on your original comment about empathy being taught, but I understand what you mean :)

Jenni - posted on 03/24/2011

That's why I said it was the primitive form of the emotion. We do influence how our children experience the emotion in the beginning of their developement. Of course it may take different paths as they mature and experience outside influences. But the foundation of it still exists and we do influence our child's ability to feel empathy. If a child is not taught to identify their emotions and others emotions as a child... they will be severely stunted. That's where behavioural disorders that are based on environment come into play. Children severely lacking the 'ability' to feel empathy.

My son does not apologize at inappropriate times. It is always appropriate. I get it. We teach them appropriate behaviours or responses to situations. Like saying sorry when they make someone cry. Initially, it is a mimic like you say. As they develop it begins to hold more meaning behind the word... such as remorse.

The thing about children is we can read on their faces and by their body language exactly what emotions they are feeling. We as adults learn to mask those emotions, although not completely. I see the concern on my son's face when another child cries. I see his desire to comfort that child. Maybe you might say that I am applying adult emotions to my child and that his motivations are still entirely selfish... but that is generally applied to babies and infants... if one infant cries in the nursery... other infants will begin to cry... this is not because they are feeling empathy for each other... it is selfish and satisfying their own discomfort, having to listen to other babies cry.



Yes, empathy evolves over time... it becomes more complex and we develop a better understanding of the emotion and why we feel the way we do. But in it's very basic form... all empathy is; is recognizing how others feel.

I get where you disagreed now... that empathy is *entirely* taught. Of course I don't believe that. We are born with the emotion... I may have worded myself wrong in the beginning. So I think I get it now. ;) When I said teach, what I did mean was we can encourage empathy by giving our toddlers the correct language to express feelings and drawing their attention to the feelings of others. Which yes, does encourage empathy.

Many experts do use the term "to teach empathy". Because for the most part... it is a nurture induced emotion.

Jaime - posted on 03/24/2011

"I was more or less saying we can help them along by providing them with the language to express feelings and identify feelings in others"



Initially you said that you believe that children can be taught empathy...so my comment stemmed from that. In the above quote, you make a different statement about empathy which I agree with. Also, if you don't understand empathy, then how can you identify with it and be able to discern different emotions? Our personal judgments and biases can cloud our ability to distinguish between basic emotions and OUR perspective on how those emotions should be perceived. Example would be expressing disgust or hatred toward a certain ethnicity..a parent will influence their child to "feel" a certain way about someone/something without giving them the opportunity to understand 'why' they should feel that way, so that they are able to distinguish for themselves. If a parent is prejudiced and racist, that is going to come across in their "teachings". I can turn my son's emotions into words, I can encourage him to act out his frustrations in a positive manner and I can show him how to behave, but his understanding of all of that won't come until much later and that's when I think empathy takes over. Like you said, we give them a base for different emotions, but we can't possibly predict how they will perceive it based on their experiences. My son apologized to his water tonight because he knocked it over when he was reaching for his fork at dinner...

Jenni - posted on 03/24/2011

Ok now I really don't get where we're disagreeing at! I was stating that they exhibit the foundation of empathy. Not that they experience the "full" emotion persay. I was more or less saying we can help them along by providing them with the language to express feelings and identify feelings in others. I'm guessing the one part that we partially disagree on is whether or not it's a mimic. I agree in some ways it is... but I also believe they develop an understanding of other's basic feelings as the begin to see themselves as an individual. Also... Empathy is both a nature/nurture emotion... mostly nurture... it is a learned behaviour. With the exception of personality disorders where empathy is lacking despite nurture. The nature part consists of the intensity of the emotion that different individuals feel:
"Empathy is both genetically determined and a learned skill. The development of empathy begins very early in life. The seeds for empathy are planted by responsive parenting during the infant-toddler period. Empathy then begins to grow during preschool. However, it is during the elementary school years that empathy either takes root and becomes a way of life or emotional callousness sets in. Empathetic teens really blossom and give joy to those around them. Teens that lack empathy are like thorny bushes– you try to avoid them."
http://parentingtheatriskchild.com/Empat...

also:
http://www.suite101.com/content/is-empat...

So of course I believe it's a very primitive form of the emotion.... but I do indeed believe there is more to it than just a Parrot's mimic.... which is interesting because people use to believe Parrots only mimicked human language but through the work of Irene Pepperberg and her African Grey, Alex... we learned that Parrots do have a basic understanding of human language, can express creativity through human language, solve simple math problems, understand object perminance, identify colours and objects.

I don't believe you have to understand *why* you feel empathy in order to experience the emotion.

Jaime - posted on 03/24/2011

I agree, it's very beneficial to provide preschoolers with the language and basic understanding of feelings...but for the most part when they begin to show 'empathy' it is a mimic of what they have seen and heard from their parents and other adults that have an influence on them. I don't doubt that children start to develop empathy at the age of 21/2, but their limited experience beyond their home environment and maybe daycare will only 'teach' them so much empathy...or basic understanding of feelings. I'm not suggesting that preschool kids are completely incapable of understanding happy, sad and other basic emotions...but their level of reasoning is not yet developed to truly understand WHY they feel empathy for that person. It would most certainly tie in with why we don't enforce strict discipine on children under the age of 2...they just aren't 'there' yet. That said, I agree that a child's level of maturity is key to them being able to feel/express empathy for others...but I disagree that it can be taught to a child the way that we can teach them proper behaviour or their ABC's. We can lead by example, we can communicate and encourage them to express their emotions in a positive and productive way, while also being conscious of the feelings of others, but all of this really has absolutely no bearing on their ability to feel empathy if they are incapable of such an emotion to begin with.

Jenni - posted on 03/24/2011

@Jaime-Leigh I'm going to have to defend my OP. The beginnings of empathy typically begin around the second year and this is the perfect age to begin teaching empathy:

"It appears that children must first be able to identify themselves as separate individuals before they can truly feel empathy for others. This happens sometime around the middle of the child's second year (Eisenberg, 1995)."



"Empathy, n. identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings or thoughts of another person.



Morality, n. conforming to the rules of right or wrong conduct. Webster's Dictionary of the English Language



How Empathy Develops

According to Hoffman's (1979) theory of the stages of empathy development, the personal distress reactions of the infant give way to the beginnings of true empathy in the two-year-old. The typical two-year-old can identify the person who is in distress and may offer assistance. However, the assistance may be inappropriate. The two-year-old is most likely to offer assistance based on her own needs rather than the needs of the person in distress. For example, she may offer her bottle or teddy bear as comfort to an older child or adult. The toddler may want to help, but may lack necessary knowledge, skills, or insights into appropriate helping behavior (Barnett et al., 1982).



It is not until the child is approximately six or seven years old that she becomes cognitively capable of "walking in someone else's shoes." Hoffman calls this the role of taking stage and theorizes that the ability to assume another person's perspective results in increasingly appropriate helping behavior.



It is only when the child approaches adolescence that he begins to think abstractly enough to empathize with groups of individuals such as the homeless or oppressed. Hoffman labels this stage comprehensive empathy and explains that it is at this point that we are first able to understand how the interplay of life's experiences may color attitudes, feelings, and behaviors.



While Hoffman's explanation of the developmental nature of empathy is strong, there are instances when children respond to others' distress with greater maturity than the theory might predict. Both biology and experience may account for those deviations."

http://www.earlychildhoodnews.com/earlyc...



So it is believed that the second year is when the foundation of empathy begins.



"Experience may enhance or interfere with emerging abilities to empathize (Barnett, 1987; Hoffman, 1987). For example, when adults provide children with words to describe emotional states and describe their own feelings of empathy, children become increasingly aware of their own and others' emotional states (Eisenberg et al., 1992, 1993; Fabes et al., 1990). In school-age children inductive reasoning (e.g., pointing out how others feel as a result of the child's behavior) promotes development of empathy. However, physical punishment, threats, and scolding may interfere with the child's developing ability to empathize (Eisenberg, 1995). When children have a warm, loving relationship with their caregivers, they feel secure and that security frees them to think about others rather than focusing entirely on themselves (Kestenbaum et al., 1989). "



How to Teach Empathy

Early childhood educators can promote the child's development of empathy by using a variety of strategies during normal daily activities.



Model Caring Behaviors. One of the best ways to promote empathy is to model empathetic caring. Talk about your feelings for others and how you share their joys, sorrows, pain, or delights. Tell children when you are excited for them or when you feel sorry that they are unhappy.



Name Emotions. Help children give names to their emotions. Most preschoolers can use the terms happy and sad, but are at a loss to describe their emotions precisely. Introduce feeling words such as lonely, frustrated, frightened, joyful, shocked, proud, discouraged, hopeful, unwanted, contented, anxious, or delighted as you read about story characters or simply live through daily events.



Interpret Emotions. As a circle time activity, invite children to "read" or interpret the emotions in the faces of people in large photographs or magazine pictures. Then ask, "Why do you think the girl feels surprised?" and "What could have happened to make the man look so discouraged?"



Role Play Helpful Behaviors. Dramatize stories about specific helpful acts. By discussing and playing out how to help, children learn skills and gain insights into appropriate helping. At the same time, they learn to take different perspectives.



Be Supportive. Maintain a warm, supportive relationship with children and set realistically high standards consistent with the developmental levels of the children. Teach Conflict Resolution. When a child does something wrong to another child, first demonstrate and verbalize empathetic care for the victim. Then point out to the perpetrator how her acts are related to the victim's feelings. By making the child aware of the consequences of her actions you help the preschooler become aware of the inner feelings of others. When the child understands the reasons for rules, she tends to view the world as a more positive, consistent, and meaningful place (Staub, 1995). Finally, reason with the child and help her think of appropriate alternative behaviors that might be used next time."



Also, maturity of the individual child plays a large role in their ability to feel/express empathy. It can only be beneficial to provide preschoolers with the language and basic understanding of feelings in themselves and in others.

Sorry a bit long....

Jaime - posted on 03/24/2011

Jennifer, I can appreciate your assertions about empathy being taught to children, but I disagree because at the very beginning of your post you said "by expressing my feelings in words, and putting his feelings into words"...this is all from YOUR perspective...not his. Thus he is merely mimicking what you would do in such a situation because you have attempted to teach him the proper way to respond when a specific situation arises. At pre-school age, it's really speculative to say that kids can be taught empathy because they are not yet at a reasoning level of understanding. They might be able to tell us that hitting is hurtful, and that being well-behaved makes us happy...but they won't understand HOW that happens or why. Empathy is naturally invoked from a series of experiences that a person has, coupled with their own understanding of the world. A two-year-old might say "mommy sad, I sorry"...but they won't have the slightest clue what it means to be sad, and furthermore why THEY are sorry. My son says 'sorry' to me all the time when he sees that I'm frustrated or upset, but he also says sorry if he trips and falls or if he is trying to help me do something. By the time he reaches school-age he will have a better understanding of empathy, because his development level will have increased and his experiences with negative and positive situations will become more prominent as he stakes his kindergarten claim.



April, when it comes to being consistent and using a method of discipline even when we're sure it's not effective, I say scrap the first method and try something new. Consistency is key, but it's more about consistency of discipline (on both parts) more so than consistency of a particular method. If 123 magic isn't working, then try the 'choices' method and see if that elicits more cooperation. Another thing to consider is that perhaps your son is not ready for so many activities. He sounds a lot like my son in that he is very active and not very good at focusing on one particular task (unless it's running from one end of a room to the other). Sometimes we need to scale back on the extra curriculars and give our kids the chance to catch up developmentally.

Jenni - posted on 03/24/2011

@Nikki and April I strongly believe empathy can be taught to toddlers. By expressing my feelings in words and putting his feelings into words, talking about how his actions make others feel. I believe I have seen proof that he has learned empathy. Some examples I've seen: Whenever he gets a drink he always has to ensure there is one for his sister as well. If he sees either of his sisters crying he comes up to them rubs their head and asks "What's wrong?" He identifies feelings in others: Kira sad, Mommy mad, I make Mommy happy! He tells people sorry when he has made them upset without being asked. When I ask him "how it would make him feel had that been done to him...." he responds with the appropriate feeling that situation would give him or if you ask him how his action made another feel. If his sister is crying because she wants a toy he has.... he may hesitate but will usually give her the toy "here you go..." even if he was playing with it first.



When my SD was 2... if you even looked the least bit out of sorts she would always respond with concern: "Are you ok, Jen?"

So yes, I strongly believe toddler exhibit and can learn the foundation of empathy... by teaching them how to identify their own feelings and others feelings and also how we respond to those feelings.

Like in the example of my son lending his toy to his sister. I'd always praise him after for being so considerate and tell how happy it made his sister. When he made one of his sisters cry I would have him come over and look at her face and tell him: "Look your sister is crying! You've made her sad by taking her toy away!" He is now learning to remedy these situations, he will give the toy back when I show him he has upset his sister without need for warnings and TOs and such. He is also starting to respond all on his own without me having to show him.

Nikki - posted on 03/24/2011

April, here's a little info on developing empathy. Alot of people say that it cannot be taught to toddler's but I think it's never too early to start.
http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-caring-c...

April - posted on 03/20/2011

JuLeah, you have a wonderful way with words. I've seen you respond to other posts and you have a way of making sense of things! He is definitely strong willed. I am interested in your explanation that 123 magic actually gives him a choice to misbehave. It makes total sense. He can choose to comply on on the count of 1, 2 , 3 or not at all. I was thinking...that's too many choices and not all work in my favor! Better to keep the choices to A or B., like you suggested with the coats. I will try to focus more on choices and less on making him a "robot". By the way, my sister said the same thing when I said all the other kids follow the lesson plan in swimming. Her actual words were, "The other kids are robots, your son is someone who makes his own decisions, he is someone that knows what he wants."

JuLeah - posted on 03/20/2011

If he hit you in the face and you said 'ouch' and he hit you again ... why was your face still in his reach? Why let him hit you like that? My nephew went through this phase, he'd hit and we'd say 'ouch' and walk away - completely ignore him for a few minutes - ohh, he didn't like that. We'd come back and show him, 'gentle hands' and give a lot of priase for gentle hands .... there are some good parenting books and many great classes ... all parents benifit from education

JuLeah - posted on 03/20/2011

He is 2 and acting as he should. You don't want a robot. And you are teaching him with the 1,2,3 to not listen until you get to 3. It is a game and he is having fun with it.
1,2,3, work when he finally opts to listen :) anything would work when he finally opts to listen.
Get his attention - get on his level, make eye contact and use very short sentences - four words or less.
Ask him to repeat back whatever you have asked him to do "get your shoes" What did Mama ask? "Get my shoes"
Some other kids in some situations on some days will listen better - don't compare kids - all have moments where they shine and moments when they don't -
If you ask him to do something "get your coat please" and he doesn't - take him to his coat "Mama said get your coat"
Give him choices - do you want your red coat or your blue coat? Whatever he picks will be a yes to wearing a coat so you can't lose.
Let the teacher handle him in class unless you are in the water with him ... then point out another kid "I like the way Mikey is standing still" or "I like the way Annie is looking at the teacher"
Kids seldom have a discipline problem, with due respect, parents often have a parenting problem. But, other then teaching your kid to 'not' listen (which will lead to problems) you don't seem to have a problem - he is a typically developing 2 yr old.

Riana - posted on 03/19/2011

Hi April, since you obviously feel that 123 and 5min warning and timeout and spanking do not work (and btw I don't use any of those but then again my kids are older) why not try choices. Especially with strong willed children this helps them to feel in control of the situation and can make a world of difference.

You would have to figure out what choices to offer and being his mom you would know best what is likely to turn his vote but simple examples could be:

At gymnastics say: "It looks like you are not enjoying this right now, you can choose to either work with the group or to sit on the side and watch if you prefer?"
At swimming say: "I can see that you'd like to splash but right now we are kicking so you can choose to do kicking now or otherwise we will have to wait until everyone else is done and then you can splash on your own.”
With toys say: "You can either choose to pick up your own toys, or otherwise I can pick them up and they can be my toys. What do you choose?"
With hitting say: "Hitting mommy hurts, if you choose to hit again it means you no longer want to play with me/cuddle with me/be picked up."

It's a way of letting him choose his own actions while at the same time phrasing the consequences of his actions into the choice to help him with making the connection between choices, actions and consequences.

Hope this make a little bit of sense - good luck!

Nikki - posted on 03/18/2011

April, I have lots more to say, but I am so tired right now I don't have the energy to think, after what you said in your latest post I agree that it might be an idea to look into different strategies, also I think it would be great to focus on developing his empathy. I have quite a few suggestions and activities, I will get back to you with some ideas.

Nicole - posted on 03/18/2011

Keep being consistent. Some kids are just more stubborn then others and in a matter of weeks things can change.
William went from being a horrid child at swimming to the best behaved by the end of the 9 weeks and we didn't change what we were doing.

Try and redirect your son to something else when you see him getting frustrated. Or recognize that he is frustrated by telling him that you can see he is frustrated and then ask if he would like some help. If he says no just let him know you are there for him if he needs it and if he says yes get him to help you find the best solution to the problem. If it's a block not going in the right place then hand over hand guide it to the right place etc.

Nicole

Jenni - posted on 03/18/2011

April, I hear ya! My son is quite free spirited and headstrong. We started with a warning followed by a TO. But now we do... is it 123 magic? I'm not familar with the term. But I do warning about the behaviour 1... 2... 3... ask to comply and if he still says no, I issue a TO. He's actually a bit fearful of the 123s compared to my old method and usually listens before I get to 3. But the last few days he's been pushing it. Until the last few days I've rarely had to give a TO since I started this method.

As for hitting, pushing or any other type of violent behaviour... I have a zero tolerence policy. You hit, you sit.



Also it's very very important that if it does lead to a time out... when the time out is up, you have a chat. Involving what behaviour resulted in the time out and an appropriate way to respond in the future. IE: he hits... "When we're mad, we don't hit. We say "I'm really mad right now, mom!" I consistantly tell him to use that wording when he's mad. After about a year he is finally showing results! We use to never get through a day without him hitting and now he hasn't hit in 2 months. It does take a long time with some kids compared to others. Especially with headstrong boys like ours.



We use two rules in our household to keep it simple. No hurting others (zero tolerance) and listen to Mommy and Daddy (123 system).

Try not to let it get you frustrated if he waits till 3. It's his job to push bondaries. Just follow through consistantly. Don't fear the time out! :)) They are a useful tool that help kids to be more receptive when you're chatting with them about the behaviour that got them there.



And most importantly, praise the heck out good behaviour. Take special note when he does listen without having to use 123. Or in your case if he's waiting to 3 praise him when he does listen and you don't have to resort to TO. Praise, praise, praise when he does *anything* you ask. Heck, praise after a TO when he does finally comply! When my son does choose to use his words instead of throwing a toy. I say: "Way to go Ben! Awesome JOB! you used your words when you were mad!" Then we try to solve the problem that made him mad.



Try to explain to him *why* we shouldn't do something instead of of telling him not to. Offer him a upbeat, positive alternative. IE: He wants to put the whole roll of toilet paper in the potty. Say: "Let's just use one piece so we can share TP with everyone else!" Use 'no' as a last resort. Allow natural consequences to run their course when possible. High spirited children like ours tend to baulk being told what to do. So try to find inventive ways to let him feel he is the one making the decision. Guidance is the key with this sort of personality. Pick and choose your battles. Avoid power struggles.



Sorry I used aggression for most of my explainations. Just the issues I've been dealing with my son more than listening. But I hope it helps anyways.

Meghan - posted on 03/17/2011

My son is the EXACT same way. His daycare lady always tells me that she has never had a kid push as hard as he does.

I don't think it is a behavioral thing, I think it is just who my son is. He is like me, if I get pushed or nagged I fight back...and well, he does the same. I look at it as having a very confident, mature little boy. Is it frustrating...totally!

My methods are a lot of distraction, working on consistency, taking away his favorite toys and well, sometimes just completely ignoring him.If he is in a safe place, I will remove myself and then once he has calmed down I can come back and talk it out with him.

I feel your frustrations and hope that the other ladies have some more helpful advice!

April - posted on 03/17/2011

He definitely pushes the boundaries as far as they can go. I can see that becoming frustrated or mad makes him want to push things further. It is hard not to become upset, but after telling him 10 times not to do something, I get start to get frustrated. If he does something that physically hurts me, he does it more, as well. For example, he accidentally hit me in the face. When I said ouch, he hit me again. I told hm to stop. He did it 3 more times. Seems like he doesn't think I am serious. Doesn't think I am really hurt or I am really upset with him. (He laughed each time he hit me) Whether it is a personality thing or not, I want him to stop. I want him to follow rules appropriately and to understand that there are certain things he is expected to do. I don't want to do 123 magic 5 times. It seems like if I have to do that, then he needs something else. It's just like spanking, IMO. Kids are spanked over and over for same thing and spanking doesn't deter them. I see what you are saying about consistency, but I am not confident that 123 magic actually works. Does anyone else use this technique? Do they have to repeat the process so many times for the same problem?

Nikki - posted on 03/17/2011

It's hard to say without observing him. The thing is it's difficult to gauge and draw a conclusion from what you have observed other children doing. You said he is a free spirit, is he stubborn, independent, likes to make his own choices, does he like to push all of his boundaries? This could just be a personality trait, that being said although these types of traits are not idea for parents of toddlers, however when they are teenagers and young adults being able to make choices independently and not being a follower is something we wish for our kids.

Also developmentally it's very common for boys in particular to have a difficult time listening between the ages 2-4.

I would keep up with your 123 magic, consistency is really important. I would also try and incorporate giving him friendly 5 warnings for when something is about to change, or he has to do something. So say to him "in 5 minutes time you have to pack up you toys because it's dinner time" make sure he understands, wait the 5 minutes then ask him to pack away etc.