How To F*** Them Up ~ Oliver James

Nikki - posted on 10/15/2011 ( 52 moms have responded )

5,254

39

In a new book that is bound to stir up controversy James says mothers of toddlers should avoid working outside the home or leave young children in the care of others for long periods.



He also attacks the strict disciplining of young children by comparing it to training them "like a dog in a laboratory".

In his book How Not to F*** Them Up – the sequel to his 2002 book They F*** You Up – James writes: "As a parent of a child of this age, you need to realise that if things go pear-shaped it is actually always your fault, in the sense that if you keep a close enough eye on them you can prevent atrocities."



He says that young children "need to be in the presence of a responsive, loving adult at all times", warning mothers who go out to work that day care is associated with more boastful, disobedient and aggressive children. According to the psychologist naughty step methods "often result in repetition of the undesired behaviour, rather than successful management. If you are not careful, you are just creating a guaranteed method for your children to wind you up."



In an attack on the methods of Gina Ford, a former maternity nurse turned best-selling toddler 'guru', he writes: "There is a great deal of evidence that very strict routines do lead to more insecure, and to more irritable and fussy, babies."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/775264...



Has anyone read this book? What do you think of his controversial statements?

Join Circle of Moms

Sign up for Circle of Moms and be a part of this community! Membership is just one click away.

Join Circle of Moms

52 Comments

View replies by

Mercy - posted on 04/20/2012

37

0

Hello
My name is mercy ,i saw your profile today and became interested in you,i will also like to know you the more,and i want you to send an e mail to my email address so , here is my e mail address(mercyjames303@yahoo.co.uk) i believe we can move from here . I am waiting.(Remeber that distance or colour does not matter but love matters alot in life) reply me with your email address . Thanks Yours in love,mercy

Sarah - posted on 03/12/2012

39

25

Sounds like yet another interesting read. I think the only way you can be a good parent is to take all advice you WANT, disregard the stuff you DONT want and use your common sense when raising your kids.



Everyone who writes a book about parenting and child raising(or rearing as the case may be) will always belive they are right.



I would say I agree with both books.Oliver James and Gina Ford both make excellent points, but at the end of the day...each child is diffrent and should be treated as the individual they are, respected, diciplined, ruitined and loved as you see fit.



Be the best you can be and you can't falter. :)



Heres a book that will REALLY make you MAD!! "Instructing a childs heart" http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/pro... It is a religious parenting book that PROMOTOES violence when raising your child. It is all we can talk about on the norwegian forums at the moment.

Aleks - posted on 02/15/2012

535

0

Also, I would like to add that the author does state right at the start of the book regarding working mothers with little choice in the matter of where their childrens care will be. He said that the book is very much directed at those that DO have a choice.

Just thought I should clear that up.



I have also noticed that not much response since my posting... sorry to have killed the thread....lol

Aleks - posted on 02/08/2012

535

0

Ok, I have not read any of the comments as yet.



I HAVE READ the book. Basically what he is stating is the fact that kids up until they finish their toddler years do so much better with a one-to-one or two-to-one care-give type of scenario. So a day care centre is not such a scenario (especially if it is full time, the less a time a child spends in one the better - and I have read this from more than just one psychologist, too and some studies myself - sorry don't have links). He basically advocates an environment where a child can easily "attach" to a loving/caring adult (whether mother, grand mother, daddy or a nanny), that has greater focus on said child rather than a carer at a day care which has numerous same-aged children to deal with.



As for the routines... well, yeah. He is talking about the:

* feed only every 3 hours

* bed time at 8pm

* baby in its room for whole 10 or 12 hours.

* don't go into baby's room at night

* change and feed a baby without eye contact,'

etc etc.

He is actually stating the facts which many studies have found.

In this book he basicaly outlines the 3 mummy types, and how to recognise oneself in these. What are the strengths of the type and its drawbacks, and where one should look out for the pitfalls and where one should stop appologising to everyone else for who one is. Gives real scenarios (from his practice) to demonstrate the said characteristics. It is quite fascinating read. The guy is a psychologist, so not exactly just a plain opinionated baffoon.

He doesn't tell one how to raise a child, but does tell it like it is in the context of what the recent studies have discovered regarding some common or typical child rearing practices.

Carol - posted on 11/29/2011

325

14

Um...where is he getting his facts for the daycare/ nursery children? I was in day care as a child and i'm very passive on some things, and im laid back go with the flow. Also my mom worked and since my dad was retired I had a baby sitter so he could go fishing. I think this is a broad claim, I have seen many kids who are happy sweetest little things who go to day care.

Vicki - posted on 10/21/2011

5,418

18

wish had done it. my son refuses so many foods and is soo fustrating. maybe if had done it hed be a beter eater now. maybe. maybe not. toddlers. fun hey? at least the dog enjoys his food.

Nikki - posted on 10/20/2011

5,254

39

I loosely did baby led weaning, but we also did the mushy stuff as well. She did choke once on some pear which freaked the life out of me, I think she was 7 months? Mostly she would just suck on everything though. It was easier and probably more enjoyable once I was able to get my head around the concept that food before 12 months is just practice, not nutrition.

Vicki - posted on 10/18/2011

5,418

18

wow extremely envious! is it really as easy as supposed to be? I'd be so worried about choking.

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/18/2011

9,267

169

I'm also doing baby led weaning :-)

Liz - posted on 10/18/2011

1,253

22

curious...did anyone here do baby led weaning re: foods.



Yeah, I did with my son. I'm too lazy to have bothered with pureeing and all that stuff -- and jarred baby food and rice cereal gross me out.

Vicki - posted on 10/18/2011

5,418

18

oh and nikki you kow that as women age the chances for multiples grows, right? and if it runs in your family...:)

Vicki - posted on 10/18/2011

5,418

18

and probably cause they know how to push our buttons. and tell me...modeling and gentle touchs, etc. does it really work for you? they are in a stage where the more they hear it the rougher they get!

curious...did anyone here do baby led weaning re: foods. wanted to but started them on solids bit earlier due to gastrro reflux. wish could have but then I remember that I was so frazzled at that time I was barely eating so not much modeling happening thee and opportunity for tehm to reach for my food.

hey nikki tell your husband I had them at 41. and at 36? ah you've got lots of time.

oh and I think it helps knowing that at the end of the day in childcare we can walk away and let the parents ahve fun w/the evenings. still...can't imagine going back to work now and caring for other ppls children then havng energy for my own at night. are you planning on going back anytime soon nikki?

Nikki - posted on 10/18/2011

5,254

39

I only tried it for a couple of hours, she was hysterical and it just didn't feel right, so I started demand feeding then which was much easier, within a week or so she set herself a pretty good routine anyway. Not so much when you have twins though! I have twin brothers, I was 12 when they were born so I had lots of fun helping when they were babies. They both had colic, it was a nightmare. Funnily enough I would love twins, probably more so because we are trying for a baby, I want two more but hubby is 36 and doesn't want any kids after 40. So twins would be convenient! lol plus I hated being pregnant.

I agree I am grateful for all my experiences and studying, it has helped me in so many ways and I think it has been great for Issy. But it is so much harder dealing with your own child opposed to someone else's child. Probably because of the sleep deprivation and the baby brain.... does that ever end??!!

Vicki - posted on 10/18/2011

5,418

18

perfect nikki! that was what I was searching for. the child led phrase. see...toddler twins. brain fried. 4 hrs at two days old. yeah that would be really long. so you tried it huh? guess sleep dep does funny things to us. and there again is one of the things I never thought I'd do. when one was hungry I did wake the other one to get them on same schedule. hardly child led. except for the one that woke wanting it frst. but did work well surprisingly. they were bottle fed so 3 hrs was pretty much when they'd want it. I remember being amazed how it was like clockwork that one or the other would wake. on the dot almost. I had them both in bed w/me and fed one on each side. the say we treasure those moments and forget so fast. honestly it was brutal for me and I never want to go back to that time. but tehn again...looking at pics of them sleeping in my bed does seem so sweet. but then I remember that sleep dep and am glad we're where we're at now.

funny you say same thing. all the yrs studying and working and your daughter taught you more than any of that. but I know it still helped me. on those crazywinter mornings of n sleep and not being abe to calm them and needing to get out of house. only thing open was the drug store next door (24 hrs) so bundled and packed them up and wandered the aisles until daylight. funny now that I look back. but go back? no thanks.

Nikki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,254

39

I used to work in ECE as well Vicki, I can you you I have learned more in two years with my own child than I did studying for years and working with children for 10 years.

As far as routine went, I like to call my version child led routine. I just let Issy set her own routine, I found trying t fight her natural cues set us up for disaster. I remember when she was 2 days old, my mum tried to forced me to space out her feeds to 4 hours, 2 hours later she was screaming for a feed, that's when I knew I couldn't stick with these regimented "child expert" kind of routine.

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

oh and really funny thing on top of it all was that I have a specialty in infant/toddler care! oh how eli and sofia taught me more than that specialty ever did!

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

oh sorry. early childhood educator. daycare.
one thing the ministry has us do here (ontario) that is really amazing is a snapshot of the day posted for the kids. a pic arriving. a pic of snack. a pic of free play,etc. so the kids can visually see whenever they feel like looking at it what is coming up.

oh yeah the twin thing killed me in beginning. who am I kidding. at jsut almost 2 yrs it still does! would have been dead without routine. I needed it. they needed it. sometimes it was as if I wasn't getting what they were tryng to tell me re: sleep especially. after seeing the sleep psych and chanign what I was doing they were amazing sleepers. almost like I was missing all their cues and they ahd no way to tell me. but the mommy side for me was totally different from the daycare side of me. thoguht I ahd it in the bag when discovered would be twins because I worked with kids and knew everything! haha. they soo kicked my ass like I never saw it coming. I had to get them on the same schedule for sanity sake. never thought I would do something like that as was really not my philosophy and always thought parents that do that were selfish. ha. ate a bit of crow so to speak. that's another reason why I try not to judge other people's parenting. not like there are not people out there that can take a few parenting classes if you know what I mean. but in general even then I try and think that people do the best they can with what they are dealing with. used to wonder what I'd be like as a mom of a singleton. not that I would want to be as wouldn't ever change anything. but used to wonder if I would ahve stuck true to my philosophies a bit more. guess that's why philosophies change. work in progress. :)

Liz - posted on 10/17/2011

1,253

22

What is an ECE? :)

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

so sounds like he's (she?) definitely found his/her own rhythm accompanied by you allowing him to do so and supporting it. which I guess can be called a routine of sorts. the sleep play sleep thing I think is because they say if a child doesn't get a certain amount of sleep (depending on age) it decreases the amount of the learning they have settle into their brain that they've done before. don't know if I'd hold too much weight on that but I think w/routine ppl just use different words for it. rhythm. routine. schedule. although schedule does sound a bit more adult determined. I'll admit as a parent of twins that is at risk for depression/anxiety I had a really hard time with the sleep deprivation. I did things as an ECE that I'd never thought I would do. ie. sleep train with assistance form a child psych that specializes in childrens sleep. there was crying, but it was a gentler kind. as in different methods and not abandoing for however amount of time til they are too tired to cope and pass out. worked. slept through night after about 5 nights. and I was a wreck before having done that. did I ever think I would ahve done that before having kids? never. little choice for me at that point.

older kids like routines as they feel as if there is order in their world and knowing what comes next helps them feel that sense of control and not as if they are a puppet that adults do things to authoritativley. but I think at the infant age they're rhythms determine what comes next (minus stuff like you said a sandwich at 2 am).

apples and oranges I figure. but I have had parents that have said wake them up at certain time from nap or don't give more than one serving. as an ece pre being a mom I do have to admit. I judged. now as a mom...I think twice. I never know a child better than their parent does and never know what that family needs.

Liz - posted on 10/17/2011

1,253

22

He's 13mo.



I can see how you would need a routine with twins! It would be just overwhelming trying to keep up.

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

I think having a kind of rhythm might be what people mean with regards to a flexible schedule. sound like by following your childs lead your child has developed a natural rhythm which really is the 'best practice' (at least form an ece standpoint). how old are your child/ren Liz?

Liz - posted on 10/17/2011

1,253

22

I'm always a bit confused by the schedule vs. anti-schedule debate. Sometimes it seems like mostly semantics (if you don't count the extreme of either camp).



I lurk a little bit on mothering forums where people follow a certain "system" or book, and they're always tweaking their routines. "This isn't working!" "Well, [Baby Sleep Whisperer Guru or whoever] says to move nap time up 30 minutes and see how that goes." Or "This past week has been so erratic! How do I get back on track?" etc. etc.



On the other hand, if you asked me, I would answer that I don't follow a routine. I don't consider it a routine at least. I breastfeed on demand, day or night. I read his cues in terms of naps/sleep. I guess solid meals are somewhat regular (I don't offer sandwiches at 2am for instance), and we've had a strong bath/bedtime routine since we brought him home from hospital. But I certainly have never given a f*** (to borrow from the author's tone) in what order he eats, plays, and sleeps. (What is that Eat, Play, Sleep stuff all about anyway??)



If you compared my days with their days though, I would bet they're not so different. They have a routine that's "flexible" and goes off track sometimes. We have a kind of rhythm. What is the difference -- other than book profits?

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/17/2011

9,267

169

I think a schedule means it's written down or memorized so every day is extremely set up to exact times. Routines are general guidelines that are usually set up by the kid and mom notices a pattern and tends to follow the pattern. Routines can be tweaked by mom to fit her schedule for work or meetings etc, but it's not time set things.

Denikka - posted on 10/17/2011

1,808

5

I think when referring to a strict schedule, they're talking more about like feeding the child every 4 hours. And it doesn't matter how hungry the child is, or how not hungry they are, it's 4 hours on the dot. Period. And for some people, they start this from day one.

I don't think they're referring to a looser routine like dinner between 4 and 5, bath around 7:30, bed at 8pm. That sort of thing.

When I see schedule, to me it it means that every minute is accounted for. A routine just means that the same things get done around the same time most days.

Liz - posted on 10/17/2011

1,253

22

When people say children need schedules/routines, what age do they mean and how strict of a routine?

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

I'd also like to add that as a mom of twins a routine saved my ass! I would have totally floundered w/out one and they would have dearly suffered as I was completely exhausted and was completely struggling to best meet tehir needs. ok...kind of off topic on thead...apologies...

Vicki - posted on 10/17/2011

5,418

18

I work in childcare (or did before the babies) and have to say...some people don't have a choice but to put their children in childcare. fortunately in canada if you meet the criteria you have one yr mat leave. yes its true the early years have a major impact on later in life. but turning their children over to others to raise them for them? find that comment a bit dramatic. and I wish life was as simple as that. have baby, stay home and be perfect parent. for some it jsut isn't reality. I chose to stay home but was in a position to be able to do that (not because finances are perfect, but because I've had support). not everyone has that support. I also believe that what is right for one family is not always right for another. I get tired of people criticizing moms for choosing to go back to work. I'd rather see a woman fulfilled as a person first if it is going to make her a better parent.

re: schedules I agree.s trict schedules are not best for infants. but schedules do have their place. children need routine and schedules. they crave it. they need to know what to expect for bldng confidence. flexibility obviously is crucial to enusure their needs are met but a child w/out a routine/schedule of some sort often suffers.

my thoughts on time-outs assume due to nature of the group) is that they are shaming the child and inneffective.

on a positive note I really like what you've said chrissy.
"I think no matter how we parent there will always be someone to say we are doing the wrong thing. All we can do is genuinely do our best, learn from the mistakes and successes of ourselves and others and do better tomorrow than we did today."

jsut wish people were more supportive of others decisions and not judge too qickly. sure we're entitled to our opinions. but the judging...glass houses I believe someone said. we never know a persons situation. I try to remind myself of that when I see parents that do things I wouldn't.

Sally - posted on 10/17/2011

306

0

I have not read the book.

I am a firm believer that what happens in the first three years effect the rest of your life. I think the homelife and the connections made in the beginning are with us forever. The pathways that are forged in the brain from the start are what we continue to build on the rest of our lives. I do think a parent should do everything possible to stay home with their children. It doesn't make sense to me that daycare doesn't have a negitive effect.

CIO goes against every instinct for a reason. It is painful for parents because it is wrong. Strict schedules are harmful. I love his statements, at least what I have briefly read. And if using a shocking title gets people to read then more power to him. To late for me to post more. Wish i had read this earlier. I won't read the book, I don't have too. But maybe it should be in every OB/GYNS office. Maybe it would make people think before they turn their tiny babies over to strangers to raise.
I cannot imagine missing that baby time, and who knows what influences would have been planted? As my daughter gets older and the economy gets worse, I may have to have a job while she is in school. But if I got lucky enough to ever have another one, I'd sell the house & everything else to stay home again. It hasn't been easy but it is the best decision I ever made.
I wonder what his position on time-outs is? Maybe I will read it after all.

Angela - posted on 10/16/2011

2,216

33

I would not read the book due to title alone. I think he just likes to controversial to sell a book when I read these titles. It turns me off
I have only bought a handful of parenting books in my 25 years of parenting.... and I have to say some give good advice I take what I like and what seems to work for my family. I also watch shows like Super Nanny and do the same but I see them as guides and tools you can use or not.

Vegemite - posted on 10/16/2011

916

0

I think no matter how we parent there will always be someone to say we are doing the wrong thing. All we can do is genuinely do our best, learn from the mistakes and successes of ourselves and others and do better tomorrow than we did today. Then we will know we are doing a good job.

Daniela - posted on 10/16/2011

638

8

Nicki, I really like how you put it - 'We all have our struggles and accomplishments'. It's so true. Even if you try to do everything 'right', you still come with your own baggage, as small as that may be. You still live in circumstances that you may not be able to change.
I read through the reviews on amazon.uk and one woman quoted something from the book that said something like this is only a book for people who can afford a nanny. That's so insulting. At least Dr. Sears acknowledges that families these days have different forms and live in not always ideal circumstances. The books I've read had sections for single moms for example.
I'd love to read it just to have a better argument, but I sure as hell won't spend money on it. I think the library is probably is full of Gina Ford though... How on earth do these people get so popular?!
Oh, and Brianna, I think it's the same book just a different edition.

Liz - posted on 10/16/2011

1,253

22

DUH -- sorry! :)

Denikka - posted on 10/15/2011

1,808

5

I didn't mean that Dr. Sears is an extremist :) I LIKE Dr. Sears and agree with a lot of his parenting philosophies. His book about night time parenting saved my sanity.
I meant that THIS guy is an extremist. Taking things similar to what Dr. Sears talks about and taking them to an extreme level. :)

Liz - posted on 10/15/2011

1,253

22

It seems like he's an extremist in the Dr. Sears camp. And extremists of any sort are kinda off the deep end. . .



I wouldn't say Dr. Sears is an extremist, but then again I usually agree with him. :)



He seem caring and sensible at least.



I dislike these kind of aggressive, in your face tactics, but I guess Oliver James is just trying to sell books and catch people's attention.



Gina Ford can piss off, though. A friend of mine gave me one of her books when I first gave birth. I knew NOTHING so I tried to follow it. Big mistake. I told my friend later that it didn't work, and she said, "Oh, it didn't work for me either." Then why did you give it to me???



Then I started reading Dr. Sears and we were happy.

Meghan - posted on 10/15/2011

3,169

33

I think a man knows nothing about being a mother and should shut his pie hole! Also I think it would be more detrimental to a child to end up homeless without food than go to daycare

Nikki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,254

39

We are having our fair share of struggles at the moment too, I have to keep telling myself as long as I learn from it and look forward to the future it will all be worth it!

Vicki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,418

18

we all have our struggles and accomplishments. really like that nikki. will keep in mind when those days of struggle are here. and man are they ever here frequently. nice words to remember when the day is done.

Nikki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,254

39

I think the swearing is just an enticement to read the book! I am a little over all the righteousness with parenting experts as well. I think that great parenting comes from within and it's never one size fit all. All families are different, all children are different so it's impossible for us to stand back and judge from our own glass houses. We all have our struggles and accomplishments.

Stifler's - posted on 10/15/2011

15,141

154

It sounds like an interesting read.

Stifler's - posted on 10/15/2011

15,141

154

It seems swearing in the title of your book has become a theme. LOL. I can agree that forced routines lead to irritable fussy babies but sometimes there is no option besides working outside the home for mothers. I also agree that it's our fault if we don't intervene on bad behaviours.

Brianna - posted on 10/15/2011

1,906

22

ok so im interested in reading the book but when i looked it up on amazon.ca i found to books call that same thing but with slightly different decriptions??? one was blue and the other was a white book.. ??? not sure if 1 is more rescent then the other or not.. which one are u talkin about

Daniela - posted on 10/15/2011

638

8

No, I hadn't heard of it before, but like Liz I'm A LITTLE TIRED of the kind of provocative undertone that basically says 'if you don't do it like I say then you are a shit parent'. The whole blame-game thing is such a nasty side-effect of parenting, kind of the one thing I really wasn't prepared for when I had Nina.
But this guy is really pushing the boat out. That's like saying it's the poor's fault for being poor. And what precisely does he mean by 'preventing atrocities'?! He might as well spit in the face of every parent whose child has ever been victimised.
This is actually pissing me off much more than Gina Ford could ever manage, precisely because I do agree with most of what he says.
I can't see how someone who is promoting such a benign parenting philosophy can at the same time administer such a vicious and broad attack. That's not helpful in any way.

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/15/2011

9,267

169

For example, my friend is a very laid back type of mom, her son is active as all get out and has quite the stubborn streak. He is 2 and he has been struggling with constantly hitting kids, take toys, pinching, etc. She is the type of mom to simply redirect or try to explain him out of it. She never gets firm or strict.
Now, she says it's just him. And I'm sure his personality did make him tend towards this way, but her permissiveness allowed it to become a big problem. He tended this way, she didn't stop it.
But IMO, it's her fault, not his. Since he's just 2 :)

Vicki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,418

18

oh I'm sorry I totally misread tis. was thinking you were referring to the go to f..k to sleep bok. jsut find that book humourous as all hell. not something I'd read to my kids or even buy. jsut fuuny for stress relief. sorry, didn't get post. read it waaay too early in morning!

Denikka - posted on 10/15/2011

1,808

5

It seems like he's an extremist in the Dr. Sears camp. And extremists of any sort are kinda off the deep end. . .
Like Liz, I agree with him in principle.
I don't agree with *training*, I prefer to teach instead. I also agree that a child should *be in the presence of a responsive, loving adult at all times* That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be parent.

I do think that nurture has a lot to do with the end result when raising a child. A lot of behaviors are taught or reinforced by a caregiver. But I won't deny that personality is ingrained and has a more genetic component.
I don't like that some parents blame things entirely on the child. I have seen parents, especially those who have more than one child, absolutely baffled as to why one child ended up as a troubled kid, and the others ended up just fine. Each kid is different and the parents need to adjust their ideas to each child.
I do NOT agree with blaming the parents for everything though. Yes, how you were raised plays a big part in who you end up being. But eventually you have to take responsibility for your own actions.

Laura Zoey - posted on 10/15/2011

9,267

169

I agree. I don't bash working moms cuz I never know when I could end up in that boat but I DO believe that children, at least when young, are better off with ONE main caregiver. Not being in daycare or having a nanny etc.
Idk if it 'ruins' them but I don't think it's ideal. Sort of like bf vs ff. Ff isn't necessarily detrimental, but it's not ideal, and it could bear side effects. Same with daycare vs full time mom.

Points kellie mentioned, I agree entirely!

Liz - posted on 10/15/2011

1,253

22

In principle, I agree with him -- but I'm sick of the confrontational, pseudo-provocative tone everything has to be in these days.

I took extended maternity leave so my son wouldn't be in daycare (I also just enjoy being with him), but not every woman has this luxury.

Kellie - posted on 10/15/2011

1,994

8

:D I think the problem is people get to caught up in reading books by 'experts' and forget that the only expert on their baby is their baby, by listening to our children and meeting their needs makes for happy, healthy and well adjusted children who grow into happy, healthy and well adjusted adults (of course this is a generalisation and I'm not factoring in extenuating circumstances), it also makes for happy Mummies and Daddies!

Nikki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,254

39

I couldn't agree with you more Kellie, on every point!

Nikki - posted on 10/15/2011

5,254

39

What did you love about it Vicki? It was sent as a group message, I thought it might be an interesting debate topic.